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Use Internet Explorer? Why don't you try this instead.

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Pochacco

asking dangerous questions
Or just, you know, www.getfirefox.com
firefox-logo.jpg


yes i'm a firefox fanboy big whoop wanna fight about it
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Well the main difference is that Avant and Maxthon are both shells for Internet Explorer.

Provides the features like mouse gestures, tabbed browsing, ad blocking, etc, but with the compatibility of IE (I know that Opera (my preferred browser) has pretty spotty compatibility, especially with quicktime).
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Zaptruder said:
Provides the features like mouse gestures, tabbed browsing, ad blocking, etc, but with the compatibility of IE (I know that Opera (my preferred browser) has pretty spotty compatibility, especially with quicktime).

The compatibility, lack of standards compliance and security holes, that is. The only thing IE is compatible with is IE.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
Ghost said:
...because my clients wont so it would create a poor testing enviroment.
if you are programming stuff exlucsively for IE with disregard for other browsers in today's day of ver. 6/7+ browsers, that would be your fault, not your clients.

everything I code is strictly XHTML/CSS2/DOM. Anything less today is completely unacceptable.

There are still some minor oddities between browsers (margins seem to be the biggest), but overall programming to XHTML/CSS2/DOM garners me cross-compatibility between IE, Firefox, and Safari probably 95% of the time and doesn't limit me in the slightest.
 

tedtropy

$50/hour, but no kissing on the lips and colors must be pre-separated
Honestly, it's painful for me to use IE these days. I've been a Firefox user for over a year now and the IE7 beta is giving me no convincing reasons to switch back. Firefox Extensions FTW.
 

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
i'm leery of changing from IE. I don't have too many problems with it... I get around the random crash here and there, and beyond that I'm pretty good.
 

Anthropic

Member
I hope these people realize that the so-called "compatability" of IE all goes out the window with IE7. They're making it much more strict and warning people that hacks that worked in IE6 will probably no longer work.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
Anthropic said:
I hope these people realize that the so-called "compatability" of IE all goes out the window with IE7. They're making it much more strict and warning people that hacks that worked in IE6 will probably no longer work.
yeah, finally. the whole IE DOM model has been a thorn in developers' sides for years. It WAS nice to be able to do some cool DHTML stuff with the proprietary objects...... like 6-7 years ago. but with a standard DOM now and CSS2 and XHTML capabilities, it has rendered all of those proprietary IE elements obsolete and useless.
 

Lhadatt

Member
stopusingie.jpg


And this goes for all IE variants and products that invoke IE (such as this "shell" you're pimping).

It's a crap browser, and version 7 doesn't look to do anything that Firefox/Safari/Camino/Opera don't.
 

mollipen

Member
iapetus said:
The compatibility, lack of standards compliance and security holes, that is. The only thing IE is compatible with is IE.

Yes, exactly. One of the worst things about doing web design is making something that looks great in Safari, FireFox, Opera, OmniWeb, and so on... and then you try it in IE, and whoops, things are all kinds of messed up.

For you people that still use IE, seriously... you don't know how hard you make it for web designers. Please stop using it.
 

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
seriously, what's so wrong with IE? And I understand that designers might program for other browsers, but I hear far more complaints about pages not working right on firefox or opera than I do with pages that don't load correctly for IE.
 

APF

Member
whytemyke said:
seriously, what's so wrong with IE? And I understand that designers might program for other browsers, but I hear far more complaints about pages not working right on firefox or opera than I do with pages that don't load correctly for IE.
That's not because IE gets things right, it's because everyone has to code for IE.
 

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
APF said:
That's not because IE gets things right, it's because everyone has to code for IE.
but if i'm gonna have the least amount of trouble for IE, then why would I switch?

i'm just waiting for someone or something to sell me on one of these other browsers.
 

APF

Member
whytemyke said:
but if i'm gonna have the least amount of trouble for IE, then why would I switch?

i'm just waiting for someone or something to sell me on one of these other browsers.
You shouldn't switch if you don't like the featuresets (tabbed browsing, extensions, themes, etc) of Firefox or Opera, etc. Developers like myself want folks to upgrade to more standards-compliant browsers so we can just get on with it already and code to the standards, and not to specific browsers. This will ultimately help the end-user because webapps and UIs will be developed and debugged quicker, there will be more ambitious use of code, etc.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
whytemyke said:
seriously, what's so wrong with IE? And I understand that designers might program for other browsers, but I hear far more complaints about pages not working right on firefox or opera than I do with pages that don't load correctly for IE.

I develop for Firefox, and then test in IE, Safari, etc. Usually, the only browser that doesn't like the fully standard-fucking code is - you guessed it - IE.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
whytemyke said:
but if i'm gonna have the least amount of trouble for IE, then why would I switch?

i'm just waiting for someone or something to sell me on one of these other browsers.

Get Maxthon or Avant. They'll give you the good bits without the bad bits.

IE7 will give you half the good bits and all the bad bits. Funny how that works.

With IE7, the industry is likely to transist in the next couple years to majority standards compliant (as opposed to IE6 compliant) coding, so by that time you'll need to upgrade to a browser that isn't IE6. Avant and Maxthon will help you get used to all the good features that they possess, and other browsers will have similar functionality when you do transist.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
I've got a Blue Pants said:
:)

IE works fine for me

I surf the web on it everyday!

Plus it views YTMND without fail!

Yeah, I know. Avant and Maxthon ARE IE, just with extended functionality. It's kinda like a super plugin for IE, that gives you all the cool bits.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
whytemyke said:
seriously, what's so wrong with IE? And I understand that designers might program for other browsers, but I hear far more complaints about pages not working right on firefox or opera than I do with pages that don't load correctly for IE.
as others have said, this is because of idiot programmers designing things using MS' DOM for IE, instead of the internet standards DOM (document object model).

A great example is my wife's company's website. it uses a freaking direct id to grab what link you are clicking on (why I don't know). if instead of

document.thislink

which only works in IE, they used

thislink = getObjectById("thislink")

which works in EVERY browser, there wouldn't be a problem and their page wouldn't be broken in Firefox.

See where we're going with this? The shit that's broken in IE <= 6 is broken because the browser doesn't conform to internet standards. The shit that's broken in Firefox, Safari, etc is broken because the code doesn't conform to internet standards. See what we're saying?
 

slayn

needs to show more effort.
demanding that people switch because its not standard compliant is a rather weak argument. From the point of the user, wtf do they care? They want something that works, and ie works. To the user of software, it doesn't matter *why* it works. All that matters is that it does.

I see nothing wrong with saying ie has better compatibility. From the relative position of the user, its a true statement.


I have absolutely no problem with bitching at shitty programmers of websites for being ie only though. Thats just being ignorant/lazy to make it ie only.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
slayn said:
demanding that people switch because its not standard compliant is a rather weak argument. From the point of the user, wtf do they care? They want something that works, and ie works. To the user of software, it doesn't matter *why* it works. All that matters is that it does.
I am not demanding they switch. I don't care one way or another personally. I program everything XHTML/DOM/CSS2 compliant.

If it doesn't work in your IE5 or IE6 browser, I really couldn't care less.

slayn said:
I see nothing wrong with saying ie has better compatibility. From the relative position of the user, its a true statement.
this is a tough statement. is IE more compatible with older websites? sure. is it more compatible with designed for ie websites? yup. is it more compliant with internet standards formats? no.

to the end user, all three of these matter. and as more compliant web browsers gain ground, and more importantly, you are able to do more with internet standards (particularly some CSS2 stuff) and IE lags behind in those, IE will in truth be "less compliant" to the end user as well.
 
I used IE exclusively for about five years, but then I saw the beauty that is Mozilla Firefox and now I don't use anything else. Except for when I need to play an embedded Shockwave file...
 

mollipen

Member
whytemyke said:
seriously, what's so wrong with IE? And I understand that designers might program for other browsers, but I hear far more complaints about pages not working right on firefox or opera than I do with pages that don't load correctly for IE.

Here is the problem: there is an organization created to help come up with and put into place standards for how web pages are built. The idea - and I can't believe anybody would be against this idea - is that anybody who views a website, no matter what kind of computer they have, what operating system they run, or what browser they use, should have the same experience. If I buy a book or a magazine, I know I'm getting the exact same presentation that everybody else is getting. With websites, that's not an easy thing to do, so standards are created to help with that problem.

So far, we all in agreement?

The problem with IE is that Microsoft has chosen to (a) create some of their OWN standards that only work with IE, and (b) be slow at adopting or totally ignore some of the standards that the W3C has ratified.

Microsoft has a long history of "embrace, extend, extinguish." With the internet and web browsers, Microsoft didn't see the explosing of the web at first, and then when they did, they raced to make themselves a huge chunk of it. So, Internet Explorer came out, Microsoft had the power to make sure people were using it over other browsers, and then they stated the "extend" part. The idea sounds great - Microsoft makes new types of code that help make the internet even better. The problem is, the internet only becomes better if you are using Internet Explorer.

If you have a website that works in IE and doesn't work in other browsers, that IS NOT the fault of those browsers - it is the fault of the website. They have chosen to code their site using specific IE coding, and that goes against the ENTIRE idea behind the internet - that it is for everybody, not a specific grouping of people.

Think about this - what if this forum could be read by anybody, but you could only post if you used Internet Explorer? Or, say, only Windows users could post. Would that be fair? Would anybody in their right mind make a message forum like that?

And let me give you an example of my frustration. I used CSS2 and PNG graphics to do some neat stuff with my message forum - I made a skin where there is a drop-down menu at the top for all of the forum commands, so that every command is always available on screen without needing to scroll up or down. I used 100% valid CSS code, and it works perfectly in every browser - every browser except IE. If five out of six browsers render things properly, and one browser doesn't, and the code is all valid, tell me which side the problem is on. Because of that, I either have to have an "IE version" and an "all other browsers version" of the theme (which is what I do), or spend a lot more time and effort to hack the perfectly legit code in order to make it work at least somewhat the same in IE. That is one reason why web designers hate IE so much.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
to be fair to MS, they pretty much abandoned creating their own standards with IE6 (IE6 contained no new extensions to MS' proprietary DOM that I know of), and abandoned much of their proprietary DOM with IE7 (a LOT of stuff will be broken with IE7). We are particularly talking about IE4-5.5 here.

The problem is that stupid developers continued to code in MS/IE DOM up until pretty recently (probably up til Firefox gained wide acceptance) so there are a ton of such websites out there. though they are slowly going away.

Heck, Turbo Tax Online last year required IE. This year it is open to Mozilla, Netscape, Safari, and Firefox as well.
 

mollipen

Member
slayn said:
demanding that people switch because its not standard compliant is a rather weak argument.

There are standards for a reason, and all of the people who still use IE are bringing down my internet experience. If the case was like VHS and DVD, where I could enjoy my DVDs and those who decide to continue to slum along with VHS could do so, that wouldn't be a problem. But in this case, people's choice to continue on with the lowest quality choice actually impacts those of us making smarter choices.

From the point of the user, wtf do they care?

If we only did things the end user cared about, we'd get nowhere technology wise. Most of the time, the end user doesn't know what they want or need.

They want something that works, and ie works. To the user of software, it doesn't matter *why* it works. All that matters is that it does.

Then we should be demanding more of consumers.

I see nothing wrong with saying ie has better compatibility. From the relative position of the user, its a true statement.

But perception doesn't make it a true statement. Not to get political, but that's like going to war with a country for a reason that ends up being a lie, and then saying, "Well, it's okay that we did, and that's a true statement, because most people think so." Ignorance of a majority doesn't chance the truth behind the situation, and it isn't okay to say that their ignorance is okay.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Man, all I want is CSS column support. I've had a few good website ideas completely evaporate because it's too new. :p
 

APF

Member
borghe said:
to be fair to MS, they pretty much abandoned creating their own standards with IE6 (IE6 contained no extensions to MS' proprietary DOM that I know of), and abandoned much of their proprietary DOM with IE7 (a LOT of stuff will be broken with IE7). We are particularly talking about IE4-5.5 here.
Well, the IE6 box model is off, they need proprietary stuff for embedded objects (IIRC they're using standard attribute values in a nonstandard way), their XMLHttpRequest object is nonstandard (though I'm not sure how important that is, since I'm not an Ajax guy), their event model is different... I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting.
 

slayn

needs to show more effort.
shidoshi said:
There are standards for a reason, and all of the people who still use IE are bringing down my internet experience. If the case was like VHS and DVD, where I could enjoy my DVDs and those who decide to continue to slum along with VHS could do so, that wouldn't be a problem. But in this case, people's choice to continue on with the lowest quality choice actually impacts those of us making smarter choices.



If we only did things the end user cared about, we'd get nowhere technology wise. Most of the time, the end user doesn't know what they want or need.



Then we should be demanding more of consumers.



But perception doesn't make it a true statement. Not to get political, but that's like going to war with a country for a reason that ends up being a lie, and then saying, "Well, it's okay that we did, and that's a true statement, because most people think so." Ignorance of a majority doesn't chance the truth behind the situation, and it isn't okay to say that their ignorance is okay.

its a weak argument because you are providing no motivation for people to switch. Basically you want other people to switch for your own (selfish if reasonable) reasons.

Especially for people that are not tech savvy, switching to something with the functionality of firefox after years of IE can be extremely difficult. Tabs still confuse the hell out of my parents and they are WAY beyong the average when it comes to understanding and embracing technology.

And for IE compatibility I'm talking strictly from the point of view of the user. Which is what matters in software. If you are competing with another piece of software, even if your software if 50 times better in functionality in every way, if the user experience is worse, you lose. And you are not justified in bitching that you lost for the "wrong reasons." You should have fixed your software.

for compatibility all that matters to a user is 'what % of current websites that I go to work in this browser as I think they should.' And the winner is IE. I don't see how someone can refute that. Nor can I see why a user should care if the compatibility comes from the software doing something bad.
 

Anthropic

Member
Tabs still confuse the hell out of my parents and they are WAY beyong the average when it comes to understanding and embracing technology.
Then they're going to love IE7.

In any event, the problem with IE has been it's issues with spyware that gets automatically installed. If you're dealing with people who are not very adept at computers (and therefore probably do not update often), then what you want to give them is a browser that will not continually let sites rape their machine (which you will then have to fix).
 

RevenantKioku

PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
I don't use IE (Mac user) but I support it's use to piss off FireFox fanboys and open source folk everywhere.
 
I loved Avant. There are so many things it does better than firefox/opera (imo, things that fit my liking), even though FF/OP do have their good points. I loved how it was 100% compatible. Since I reformatted my PC, I'm trying to keep the installs to a minimum, so I'm sticking with IE, which is fine for me. I'm not a retard who gets tricked into downloading viruses, so no, I'm not going to switch.
 

VALIS

Member
I was using Maxthon but after a while it had too many annoying quirks and now I'm back to Opera. It's like a constant shuffle with me between Firefox, Opera and Maxthon, and no one wins the war outright, they just win me over for a time. I'm a filthy browser slut.
 

emomoonbase

I'm free 2night after my LARPing guild meets.
EVERYONE should use IE. That way all those virus and spam writers won't think about ppl like me using Opera. Thnx guys.
 
Spyware that I just couldn't get rid of made me stop using IE a few months ago, but now that IE7 is here that crap isn't doing anything anymore.

And it couldn't have come soon enough. I sure missed using bookmarks and having my tables actually line up and have space between them, instead of being smushed together.

Gotta root for Microsoft here. They have the more professional, sleek browser. That buggy open source crap just isn't for me. So take your computer with Firefox and Linux running on it and... do whatever it is you iconoclasts for the sake of iconoclasty do with your time.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Space Age Playboy said:
Spyware that I just couldn't get rid of made me stop using IE a few months ago, but now that IE7 is here that crap isn't doing anything anymore.

And it couldn't have come soon enough. I sure missed using bookmarks and having my tables actually line up and have space between them, instead of being smushed together.

Gotta root for Microsoft here. They have the more professional, sleek browser. That buggy open source crap just isn't for me. So take your computer with Firefox and Linux running on it and... do whatever it is you iconoclasts for the sake of iconoclasty do with your time.

It's funny because this is the opposite of logic.
 
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