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Utah one ups Arizona. Group sends out letters with Illegal Immigrant's information.

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ronito

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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/15/us/15utah.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss
SALT LAKE CITY — A list of 1,300 Utah residents described as illegal immigrants has sown fear among some Hispanics here, and prompted an investigation into its origins and dissemination.

Each page of the list is headed with the words “Illegal Immigrants” and each entry contains details about the individuals listed — from their address and telephone number to their date of birth and, in the case of pregnant women, their due dates. The letter was received by law enforcement and media outlets on Monday and Tuesday. A spokeswoman for Gov. Gary R. Herbert said Wednesday that an investigation was under way to see if state employees might have been involved in releasing the private information.

A memorandum accompanying the list said it was from Concerned Citizens of the United States. It urged immediate deportation proceedings against the people listed, as well as publication of their names by the news media.

The memo said an earlier version of the list had been sent to federal immigration officials in April. It promised that more names would be forthcoming, and promised authorities, “We will be listening and watching.”

“We are not violent, nor do we support violence,” the letter said.

A spokeswoman for United States Customs and Immigration Enforcement confirmed that the agency had received a letter from the group, dated in early April.

The list came at a time of increased tension over illegal immigration, both in Utah and in the country, two weeks before neighboring Arizona enacts a tough new law aimed at fighting illegal immigration. The federal government has sued Arizona over the law. Here in Salt Lake City, a group of state lawmakers is drafting a bill patterned after it.

Several people on the list expressed anxiety that their personal information had been released, and said they were concerned about their safety and that of their families. Some of those on the list said the heightened pressure could force them from the country.

One Guatemalan man, who spoke only on condition that he be identified as Monzon, admitted that he was in the country illegally. He said he had tried hard to keep off lists of all sorts, essentially by being the best American he could — paying his taxes and staying out of debt.

“I have always tried to keep my record clean,” he said.

But he struck a fatalistic note that might please the letter writers: “It might just be time to reflect and think if the time has come to leave,” he said.

A woman who identified herself as Liset said she was from Mexico and in the United States illegally. She said that her 2-year-old son was born in the United States, but that she had filed papers to give him Mexican citizenship as well.

“If something were to happen he will go with me to Mexico,” she said. She said she believed her personal information on the list came from her application for Medicaid. As for what it was like having reporters call, reading from a sheaf of papers containing large and small details about her life, she said, “I find it strange that you know so many things.”

Angie Welling, a spokeswoman for Governor Herbert, a Republican, said that the release of the material was significant, but that the specificity of detail was even more troubling.

“Any release of private information of this nature, especially the depth and breadth of it, is concerning,” Ms. Welling said. “The governor wants to be sure that a state agency wasn’t involved, and if it was, to make sure it doesn’t happen again, and to get to the bottom of who was responsible.”

Improper release of information from state records is a misdemeanor. The medical information on the list, however, from the notations about pregnancies, could potentially elevate the criminal implications far beyond that, to felony charges and lengthy prison sentences, for violation of federal medical privacy laws.

Proyecto Latino de Utah, one of the most prominent immigrant advocacy organizations in the state, received many frantic calls on Wednesday. People had heard about the list, but because no major news organization has actually published its full contents, the callers mainly wanted to know one thing: Am I on it?

“Nine missed calls this morning,” said Tony Yapías, the group’s director, glancing at his cellphone in an interview in his office. Most of the callers, he said, were not on the list.

One woman said that not knowing what could unfold next was the worst thing. “What’s going to happen?” she asked.

Mr. Yapías, the former director of the state’s Office of Hispanic Affairs, said he was convinced that the list had come from the State Department of Workforce Services, an agency that combines resources for job seekers, employers and people seeking assistance like food stamps or Medicaid. The list includes information that other agencies might collect, he said, but Workforce Services’ application form includes a question that other information-laden agencies like the Division of Motor Vehicles, for example, would not ever ask: “Is anyone in your home currently pregnant?”

Ms. Welling at the governor’s office said that the state’s Department of Technology Services was leading the investigation, looking into whether a digital trail might been left behind if state computers were used to prepare the list. She said that Workforce Services, in particular, was doing its own investigation, which she called “extensive.”

She said that to her knowledge no state agency had started any investigations of individuals based on the list.

A spokesman the Department of Workforce Services, Dave Lewis, said a team of information specialists was looking for patterns — whether the computer formatting would provide clues about the document’s origin or creation and whether there had been any unusual activity in people accessing that information inside the agency.

For people who found themselves named and workers in Utah’s government alike, the result was a real-life version of the old childhood game of “Telephone.” Information had leaked out from somewhere. Where? Was it accurate? Who had compiled it? Who now had copies of the list and where might the chain of whispers go from here? Would the leakers be found?
These illegal immigrants have no respect for the law! How dare they?! Here let me break all these laws to prove it to you!
 
Rorschach said:
They know when their babies are due? o_O Does that not fall under doctor/patient confidentiality?
OP:
The medical information on the list, however, from the notations about pregnancies, could potentially elevate the criminal implications far beyond that, to felony charges and lengthy prison sentences, for violation of federal medical privacy laws.
 
The fuck?

I don't know how to phrase it well, but this is some sinister stuff. Illegal immigrants are here illegally, and that's wrong (according to the law) but this breaks some sort of moral code, surely.
 
Wait, state employees have the phone numbers, names, and addresses of these illegal immigrants, and yet they aren't being deported? If the state knows who and where these illegals are, why don't they get them out of here?
 
FlightOfHeaven said:
The fuck?

I don't know how to phrase it well, but this is some sinister stuff. Illegal immigrants are here illegally, and that's wrong (according to the law) but this breaks some sort of moral code, surely.
I think this kind of opens up the curtains on the true intentions of these people. It's not about the law.

Oh and I live in Arizona, I can tell you first hand that most of the people I've talked to that strongly back this kind of behavior as well as the new law are fueled by racism. You can hear the hate in their voices, as they talk about how our state is "polluted" and the law should be bent to get illegal immigrants out.
 
The article said:
One Guatemalan man, who spoke only on condition that he be identified as Monzon, admitted that he was in the country illegally. He said he had tried hard to keep off lists of all sorts, essentially by being the best American he could — paying his taxes and staying out of debt.

I'm a little confused by this part of the statement. Is it possible to be an illegal immigrant and be paying State and/or Federal taxes? Is he perhaps talking about other taxes?

I would have thought that you would have needed a social security number or something in order to be registered to pay taxes? Or can you get a social security number or whatever even as an illegal?
 
WOW this is fucking infuriating I hope anyone and everyone involved in making this list is fucking fired from their jobs. Nothing good will come of this all does is allow assholes the chance to harass people.
 
Trent Strong said:
Wait, state employees have the phone numbers, names, and addresses of these illegal immigrants, and yet they aren't being deported? If the state knows who and where these illegals are, why don't they get them out of here?
Because Miranada Cosgrove.
 
Tntnnbltn said:
I meant having the information in the first place. I had no idea the government kept track of that. I know why it would be beneficial for them to know, but I thought that would fall under the patient/doctor privilege. Maybe those records weren't obtained from the government, but where else would they get them? And it seems the other records were obtained from federal files.
 
Rorschach said:
I meant having the information in the first place. I had no idea the government kept track of that. I know why it would be beneficial for them to know, but I thought that would fall under the patient/doctor privilege. Maybe those records weren't obtained from the government, but where else would they get them? And it seems the other records were obtained from federal files.
I would assume they got that information from sympathetic medical staff at hospitals and clinics. No need for it to be on a federal database.
 
Mario said:
I'm a little confused by this part of the statement. Is it possible to be an illegal immigrant and be paying State and/or Federal taxes? Is he perhaps talking about other taxes?

I would have thought that you would have needed a social security number or something in order to be registered to pay taxes? Or can you get a social security number or whatever even as an illegal?
Could have been a legal alien who let his residency lapse and stayed in the country and kept the same job (or another job really)...therefore continuing to pay his taxes. Additionally, if you arrive in the country as a legal visitor (tourist) and then apply for residency (which takes ~ 16 weeks) you can apply for a work permit and you can start working usually within a couple of weeks (costs a bit of money) and you get a special social security number - in fact mine had a letter in my SSN (which makes it hard to apply for jobs through companies online job applications where you must submit a SSN but it won't allow you to enter letters :lol)
 
Mario said:
I'm a little confused by this part of the statement. Is it possible to be an illegal immigrant and be paying State and/or Federal taxes? Is he perhaps talking about other taxes?

I would have thought that you would have needed a social security number or something in order to be registered to pay taxes? Or can you get a social security number or whatever even as an illegal?

No, you don't.

Actually, you could pay taxes, and what you get is an ITIN, that's the way you are recognized.

Nowadays many illegal immigrants use this so that whenever they get a chance to file for residence (green card) they don't have any taxes due and so on. They also use it as an official form of identification.
 
we have lots and lots of hispanic people here in utah.

i for one don't mind. many of them are genuinely nice people, and most any i've worked with or around have very great work ethic.

in my opinion, the ones who aren't from the US... legal or illegal, are much harder workers than most anyone raised here (for the most part).

utah is a interesting place, and is quite diverse though people who aren't from here wouldn't guess it. but some of the people here feel "we are losing the culture to the gays and mexicans." i've never been fond of the way people speak of others who they aren't familiar with or given the time of day.

the odd thing is, most the people who judge the hispanics pay them to do all their yard work.

not exaggerating either.
 
Good: turning in public information on illegals
Bad: releasing information from confidential records protected by federal privacy laws.

The method was the problem here.
 
Stupid thread title and the comparison to Arizona's law is inappropriate. Utah didn't do this; it isn't an act of government at all. It was done by some radical, bigot group who somehow managed to get a hold of some confidential records. It's like saying Kansas is responsible for all the Westboro Anti-Gay protests.

Quit pickin' on Utah. We good folk.
 
Jeramii said:
we have lots and lots of hispanic people here in utah.

i for one don't mind. many of them are genuinely nice people, and most any i've worked with or around have very great work ethic.

in my opinion, the ones who aren't from the US... legal or illegal, are much harder workers than most anyone raised here (for the most part).
utah is a interesting place, and is quite diverse though people who aren't from here wouldn't guess it. but some of the people here feel "we are losing the culture to the gays and mexicans." i've never been fond of the way people speak of others who they aren't familiar with or given the time of day.

the odd thing is, most the people who judge the hispanics pay them to do all their yard work.

not exaggerating either.

I'm sure you're right, to a point, but do you really think that they are all much harder workers than anyone raised here? I know its heresy to say this in super-liberal GAF, but some illegal immigrants actually commit crimes (aside from the crime of illegal immigration). Here is part of a story from the Salt Lake Tribune:

The Salt Lake Tribune

Updated Jul 4, 2010 03:24PM
Police have arrested 15 people in an Ogden gang sweep, including members of six street gangs, and dismantled a document-fraud lab.

The multi-agency operation nabbed members of Surenos 13, Nortenos, Ogden Trece, Latin Kings, Hyrum Town Locos and 18th Street gangs.

Lori K. Haley, spokeswoman for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), said of the 15 arrested, four were U.S. citizens and 11 were Mexican nationals. Three had criminal records and had been previously deported.


http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/49850080-76/ogden-gang-sweep-lab.html.csp
 
Trent Strong said:
I'm sure you're right, to a point, but do you really think that they are all much harder workers than anyone raised here? I know its heresy to say this in super-liberal GAF, but some illegal immigrants actually commit crimes (aside from the crime of illegal immigration). Here is part of a story from the Salt Lake Tribune:

The Salt Lake Tribune

Updated Jul 4, 2010 03:24PM
Police have arrested 15 people in an Ogden gang sweep, including members of six street gangs, and dismantled a document-fraud lab.

The multi-agency operation nabbed members of Surenos 13, Nortenos, Ogden Trece, Latin Kings, Hyrum Town Locos and 18th Street gangs.

Lori K. Haley, spokeswoman for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), said of the 15 arrested, four were U.S. citizens and 11 were Mexican nationals. Three had criminal records and had been previously deported.


http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/49850080-76/ogden-gang-sweep-lab.html.csp

yeah... i meant many, not all (thought my wording was semi-clear on it).... i have seen some of both sides as well. but its a shame to treat all hispanics as a lower class because of the ones who do commit crimes, legal citizen or not.

one of my cousins is a mormon, and she married a guy from Guatemala that she met on a mormon mission. after they got married they moved into a suburban neighborhood. he was out sitting on the lawn of their house, just enjoying the weather. wearing his working clothes of painting the house... somehow this waved a flag and the police were called by some assholes. they were giving him a rough time asking him for his ID until his wife (my cousin) ran out and vouched for him.

but also, when i used to work at a game crazy store... the hollywood video attached to it was robbed by some illegals (found that out after they were caught).

but there is that class of people in any race, legal citizen or not. most the people in utah who are arrested are usually white anyway.

https://news.washeriff.net/bookings/

that link it to the washington county sheriffs department. which is in saint george utah (four hours from salt lake city utah)... saint george has probably got the highest population of hispanic people to white people in the state of utah. (is that how you'd word it? i don't know...) its not a huge city. but lots of hispanic people. they really don't get into much or cause much trouble. its all the fucking meth and heroin addicts who are generally white causing issues.

most dui's in utah are white people also.
 
Trent Strong said:
I'm sure you're right, to a point, but do you really think that they are all much harder workers than anyone raised here? I know its heresy to say this in super-liberal GAF, but some illegal immigrants actually commit crimes (aside from the crime of illegal immigration).

GAF is actually unnaturally, tediously tolerant towards the bleeding obvious.
 
I don't understand what the 'illegal' in 'illegal immigrant' stands for. It seems to mean 'illegal until we change the law or ignore it completely'.

If you had a list of 'illegal herb suppliers' or 'illegal blood/alcohol level motorists' presumably you'd go after them?
 
Mario said:
I'm a little confused by this part of the statement. Is it possible to be an illegal immigrant and be paying State and/or Federal taxes? Is he perhaps talking about other taxes?

I would have thought that you would have needed a social security number or something in order to be registered to pay taxes? Or can you get a social security number or whatever even as an illegal?
As an illegal, no. I myself have an individual taxpayer id number (ITIN), and I'm a non-resident. A TIN must be furnished on returns, statements, and other tax related documents. For example a number must be furnished when filing your tax returns, but you cannot claim the earned income credit using an ITIN

IRS.gov said:
An ITIN, or Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, is a tax processing number only available for certain nonresident and resident aliens, their spouses, and dependents who cannot get a Social Security Number (SSN). It is a 9-digit number, beginning with the number "9", formatted like an SSN (NNN-NN-NNNN).

edit: beaten like an immigrant by Noshino
 
Jeramii said:
yeah... i meant many, not all (thought my wording was semi-clear on it).... i have seen some of both sides as well. but its a shame to treat all hispanics as a lower class because of the ones who do commit crimes, legal citizen or not.

one of my cousins is a mormon, and she married a guy from Guatemala that she met on a mormon mission. after they got married they moved into a suburban neighborhood. he was out sitting on the lawn of their house, just enjoying the weather. wearing his working clothes of painting the house... somehow this waved a flag and the police were called by some assholes. they were giving him a rough time asking him for his ID until his wife (my cousin) ran out and vouched for him.

but also, when i used to work at a game crazy store... the hollywood video attached to it was robbed by some illegals (found that out after they were caught).

but there is that class of people in any race, legal citizen or not. most the people in utah who are arrested are usually white anyway.
https://news.washeriff.net/bookings/

that link it to the washington county sheriffs department. which is in saint george utah (four hours from salt lake city utah)... saint george has probably got the highest population of hispanic people to white people in the state of utah. (is that how you'd word it? i don't know...) its not a huge city. but lots of hispanic people. they really don't get into much or cause much trouble. its all the fucking meth and heroin addicts who are generally white causing issues.

most dui's in utah are white people also.

I know all about Saint George. I've been there a million times on my way to Mesquite and/or Vegas. I live in Ogden.
I obviously agree with everything you've said that I bolded. I'm against illegal immigration by anyone, race has nothing to do with it. Also, you have an awesome avatar.
 
Trent Strong said:
I know all about Saint George. I've been there a million times on my way to Mesquite and/or Vegas. I live in Ogden.
I obviously agree with everything you've said that I bolded. I'm against illegal immigration by anyone, race has nothing to do with it. Also, you have an awesome avatar.


Off-topic.......is Mesquite worth visiting on a Vegas trip?
 
ethic said:
Stupid thread title and the comparison to Arizona's law is inappropriate. Utah didn't do this; it isn't an act of government at all. It was done by some radical, bigot group who somehow managed to get a hold of some confidential records. It's like saying Kansas is responsible for all the Westboro Anti-Gay protests.

Seriously.

As is often the case on GAF, I can't tell if people are being disingenuous or if they are illiterate morons.
 
BigJonsson said:
Off-topic.......is Mesquite worth visiting on a Vegas trip?

I would say no. Its a really small town. Aside from a few casinos, there isn't anything interesting there. I just go there because I know a few people and it's right on the Utah border.
 
How do people not realize that most undocumented immigrants still pay taxes? Do they think all these companies are paying them under the table? They have FICA and state and federal income taxes drawn straight from their checks like anyone else.
 
Mario said:
I'm a little confused by this part of the statement. Is it possible to be an illegal immigrant and be paying State and/or Federal taxes? Is he perhaps talking about other taxes?

I would have thought that you would have needed a social security number or something in order to be registered to pay taxes? Or can you get a social security number or whatever even as an illegal?
Many or most pay taxes.
USA Today said:
The Social Security Administration estimates that about three-quarters of illegal workers pay taxes that contribute to the overall solvency of Social Security and Medicare.
...
The Internal Revenue Service doesn't have an estimate of how many illegal immigrants pay income tax.

But one indicator is the 9 million W-2 forms with mismatched names and Social Security numbers it received in 2004. The IRS said the W-2 forms with invalid Social Security numbers reported about $53 billion in wages and about three-fourths of that, $40 billion in wages, had taxes withheld.

The IRS also has been issuing Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers, or ITINs, for 12 years to foreigners without a Social Security number. It's believed that many workers who seek the ITINs are in the country illegally, and the IRS reported that there were 2.5 million tax returns filed with an ITIN in 2004.

In 2006, then IRS Commission Mark Everson told Congress that "many illegal aliens, utilizing ITINs, have been reporting tax liability to the tune of almost $50 billion from 1996 to 2003."

An IRS spokesman said more recent figures aren't available.

The Social Security and Medicare taxes from mismatched W2s for the same period was $41.4 billion, Hinkle said.

That adds up to roughly $90 billion in federal taxes during they eight-year period.
The only way to avoid paying taxes (which generally means avoiding the withholding of them) is to work under the table, which is not really that common, partly because it is more likely to mean real trouble for the employer.

Oops, beaten while googling.
 
slidewinder said:
Many or most pay taxes.

The only way to avoid paying taxes (which generally means avoiding the withholding of them) is to work under the table, which is not really that common, partly because it is more likely to mean real trouble for the employer.

Oops, beaten while googling.

Not only that but they pay sales tax as well. And that's what states ought to care about, as at low income levels as they generally have; income tax brackets mean they pay virtually nothing in income tax.
 
Rorschach said:
They know when their babies are due? o_O Does that not fall under doctor/patient confidentiality?

A woman who identified herself as Liset said she was from Mexico and in the United States illegally. She said that her 2-year-old son was born in the United States, but that she had filed papers to give him Mexican citizenship as well.

“If something were to happen he will go with me to Mexico,” she said. She said she believed her personal information on the list came from her application for Medicaid.

The pregnant women probably filed for support of some kind.
 
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