It would be analogous if he realized that pressing certain buttons repeatedly results in the same outcome. He didn't. Obviously it's a bit hyperbolic, my previous analogy was not being able to cook noodles, which is probably more apt. So he got the water boiling at least. Happy now?
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Venturebeat: Our Cuphead runneth over
- Thread starter BY2K
- Start date
It would be analogous if he realized that pressing certain buttons repeatedly results in the same outcome. He didn't. Obviously it's a bit hyperbolic, my previous analogy was not being able to cook noodles, which is probably more apt. So he got the water boiling at least. Happy now?
PhantomThief
Banned
Gotdatmoney
Member
No. Because the expectations from a software developwr are largely largely different from someone who knows some C++. If I put software developer on a resume that would be blatant lying. Additional tasks is not the same thing as primary responsibilities.
Expectations are a large part of holding a title. Can you be a senior engineer with 6 months experience just because you have done some design work.
Again the answer is no. This is circular btw. You're giving mad lazy reasoning here. You're primary role is what defines your title.
Niceguydan8
Member
Sure, but do you think that because he does not know how to air dash that he does not know how to control a character in a 3d space, for example? Does this mean he doesn't know how to play the latest Madden? Is it possible for him to be really good at RTS games?
I don't really know that for sure so I'm definitely not comfortable assuming that he can't control Mario in Mario 64 or something. I'm probably absolute dogshit at genres that I don't play and haven't played in the last 27 years of my life to the point where those that do play the games find it very easy.
I think part of the problem is that people are looking at this issue that they find trivially easy and then just assume that he's equally incompetent everywhere else. I don't think that's necessarily a smart or valid assumption to make.
B-b-but... you don't get it. He was, like, REALLY bad.
Ok, who gives a shit? Calling someone's mental faculties into question and insinuating that they owe anyone an apology over a video of them sucking at a platformer should be far more embarrassing than any video of a journalist playing Cuphead could ever be.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Well as we all know, people don't learn a damn thing over the period of 9 years. People are obviously static and every mistake must be held against them forever.
We also must expect the most out of everyone. Even a completely inconsequential mistake must be met with fierce opposition, and we must continually doubt the qualifications of every person in every profession.
Mistakes? We don't forgive. No sir. Especially not when you've been doing something for a decade or more.
PhantomThief
Banned
I mean the prompt to do what to pass the first section of the tutorial basically was up there next to him jumping against a block for over a minute so....
Glass Shark
Banned
.
Niceguydan8
Member
I know, I just have a really hard time putting myself into a place of ignorance in that regard because I've known how to do that since...the X series in Mega Man? I've been doing this stuff for years, so of course I see it and know exactly what to do.
Would I act differently if I hadn't known? It's impossible to know. Maybe I wouldn't have put those two mechanics together immediately. Maybe it would have taken me a minute to figure it out. Maybe I would have figured it out right away. I don't know, so I'm not confident in assuming that from a new player's perspective.
He made a single mistake when reviewing a game 9 years ago and was only slightly paying attention when playing a game at a convention a couple weeks ago.
Those two minor events that were 9 years apart combined are definitely super damning and we should revoke his journalist license for this insult to gamers everywhere.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Or even that there's nothing to fucking extrapolate from this.
Seriously, I've done pants of head level shit in games and yet I still manage to get my way through plenty of games. Making one mistake in one game under these specific circumstances doesn't mean jack squat to literally any other game.
It's like, at my job I have definitely done bad mistakes, where I really should have known better. My boss and client were forgiving. Thankfully I don't work in the games press, or else I'd have to contend with an audience who thinks it's reasonable to become hostile at even the smallest remote chance of incompetence.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
"My game crime: I was so bad at playing I was deemed unfit to be a game journalist."
From the first couple sentences of the article this thread is about.
Loads of people here are making their arguments that he shouldn't be a game journalist and/or reviewer because he isn't good at Cuphead. Not that he isn't good at all games, because honestly you and I don't know if he's a genius at Tetris or some such.
Well if he's not reviewing or even giving an impression of the game, how are those arguments relevant when they are built on a false premise: that he was somehow reviewing it. How is him having reviewed a few games in the past even relevant to whether he should be a game journalist, a job that has nothing to do with reviewing games?
If people want to make a thread like "Should game reviewers be competent at games?" these kind of posts would be discussing that. How do they have anything to do with the matter at hand? He specifically said he's not reviewing Cuphead.
Bits N Pieces
Member
Tell you something, Dean was a genius for actually posting that video.
I said I wouldn't trust what that person has to say about games, simply because I wouldn't be able to take him seriously. I don't even know what 10 year old review you're talking about tbh. Are you confusing me with someone? Very fun one indeed.
I also don't care what he wrote afterwards about it, as most people watching that video to get an impression most likely won't read that article. The fact he changed the title of that video sure helps to not make it look like it's a serious impression though, so people watching t after the title was changed don't get the impression it is, which is nice. It also helps for people making up arguments on the internet in favor of him, two birds with one stone I guess.
It seemed to be different enough for him not being able to comprehend you can't jump on enemies for damage for a painful amount of time.
I never sad he owes me an apology, nor did i insinuate it.
And again, it's not about being bad or sucking. It's about failing to grasp basic concepts. Watch the video or don't quote me please.
PhantomThief
Banned
Yeah, you're overreacting bigtime here.
To me personally, yes I won't put any weight on his impressions. Not that I did that to begin with, never heard of the guy before this whole Cuphead debacle.
And that's okay. His bottom line won't suffer because I don't put any stake in him as a reviewer/journalist.
admiraltaftbar
Member
Nah this is a pretty big "see we were right all along" for them not just something someone said once. And your right I never said everyone who doesn't like the guy is now a gamersgater because that would be stupid but the people fighting tooth and nail now over this being some big issue (it isn't) are making very similar statements to what Gamersgate is saying. This shit happens all the time and it gives these groups power whether you like it or not.
It's fine to say I don't know if I really trust him as a review or will read any of his stuff anymore. But a lot of the arguments that it's bad that he can't play the game and therefore shouldn't write gaming journalism kind of seems like boys club mentally although here it's "no shitters".
WrenchNinja
Member
Dipshits harass a journalist for being bad at a game he isn't even reviewing
Delusibeta
Banned
Bolded is false. He wrote a preview alongside the video. It's labelled "preview" at the top and everything.
That's an entirely reasonable take; I'm just wondering why you decided to bring up and then repeatedly post about the Mass Effect thing if it didn't even matter to you in the end.
SomedayTheFire
Member
Y'all really get bent out of shape about people writing about video games don't you?
chaobreaker
Member
His opinion as someone who sucks at 2D action is just as important. Arguably even more than the troglodytes harrassing him that can barely explain their thoughts on Cuphead in 130 characters or more.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
And the journalist, instead of blaming the conference which was undoubtedly distracting or difficult to play in, fesses up and becomes self deprecating to make his point, while also apologizing. Ultra class act, total transparency.
And now people continue to attack his position and credibility.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
First I'm hearing of this story.
My two takeaways:
1) That was one of the worst game demos I've ever seen. Like he's never played a platformer in his life.
2) He obviously shouldn't be harassed for it or lose his job.
My two takeaways:
1) That was one of the worst game demos I've ever seen. Like he's never played a platformer in his life.
2) He obviously shouldn't be harassed for it or lose his job.
"Please stop being an ass to people with less skills in gaming than most"
Shouldn't be a thing that needs to be said, but alas
Gotdatmoney
Member
Head.spawn
Junior Member
Just wanted to say, 'Opening the Xbox' was awesome.
And stop the mob mentality shit, it flies in the face other harassment people speak out against on here. Sure it was embarrassing to watch, kind of funny when juxtaposed with the pigeon video but he knew all that and still shared it. No need to kick people into the mud and try to dictate peoples careers over your overreaching opinion. People are allowed to make mistakes, correct themselves... this though, critique his gameplay all you want but saying he shouldn't hold his job or whatever just insane. You're crazy.
I'll admit I was shocked he didn't put it together faster in his gameplay video, but the vast majority of his work is solid.. there are other journalists with far more egregious fuck ups that don't get half as much shit as this guy got over basically nothing.
And stop the mob mentality shit, it flies in the face other harassment people speak out against on here. Sure it was embarrassing to watch, kind of funny when juxtaposed with the pigeon video but he knew all that and still shared it. No need to kick people into the mud and try to dictate peoples careers over your overreaching opinion. People are allowed to make mistakes, correct themselves... this though, critique his gameplay all you want but saying he shouldn't hold his job or whatever just insane. You're crazy.
I'll admit I was shocked he didn't put it together faster in his gameplay video, but the vast majority of his work is solid.. there are other journalists with far more egregious fuck ups that don't get half as much shit as this guy got over basically nothing.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
It is definitely a preview, but if you read it, it's basically all statements of fact of what the game's art looked like and what he did in the game. It's not an impression in the sense that he made any judgment calls like "this game is good" or "this game is bad". Nothing about the quality of the game.
I guess you could call saying the game has a good degree of difficulty an opinion and therefore something that requires a modicum of competence in, but I don't think he's really saying much of anything there as pretty much every preview and even the developer's own intent is to make the game with a fair amount of difficulty.
Basically, if my wife walked by and said wow this game looks pretty and there's a lot going on, she doesn't need to be competent. If my wife walked by and said this game looks like it plays like shit, then yes she would need to be somewhat competent to reasonably make that judgment.
Yeah agreed. Especially when what was on display had zero relationship to the job people are saying he shouldn't be doing. Like "Ok? He wasn't doing that job".
Or: Journalist couldn't even grasp the basics of controller inputs and tried the same thing that didn't work for 3 or more minutes, people made fun of him for a few days, Gamergater and his deplorable followers start harassing him and now everybody who criticised him or is critizising him is a dipshit according to some people on GAF.
Niceguydan8
Member
Hyperbole here is not useful. It did not take him anywhere near three minutes.
WrenchNinja
Member
rationalise it however way you want
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
So what you're saying is that it's not really the fault of the video moreso a very reactionary audience that instead of seeing the full context of a self deprecating video will react angrily due to poor gameplay from someone who isn't really a game's reviewer? The article itself was always reflective of the self deprecation.
Heart of Black
Member
As a designer I have designed multiple tutorials and have had people just straight ignore the writing. Shit happens, frequently.
PhantomThief
Banned
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Remember that this is the audience who would get mad at an 8/10 review score of a game they've never played. It's been happening for decades. It still happens. No matter how many fools the mods ban on GAF.
This is the most delusional, hyper sensitive audience you could ever write for. The idea of writing from a perspective that's different from theirs, and that it might be remotely valid, is on a total other plane of existence.
Because people might learn from their mistakes? Because people change over the period of a decade? Because the review was revised and total transparency was once again achieved, leaving no harm done?
MaximusPayne
Member
So people on the internet are mean. Who would have thought?!?!
My man needs to follow simple instructions, though. Still good to see more gameplay of Cuphead even if it was just 30 seconds of a level.
My man needs to follow simple instructions, though. Still good to see more gameplay of Cuphead even if it was just 30 seconds of a level.
NeoGAF is more along the lines of 'getting bent out of shape about people getting bent out of shape about people writing about video games'.
PhantomThief
Banned
I never said he did any harm, all I said was it made him look bad ( to me personally ( do I really have to write that after every opinion? ) )
chaobreaker
Member
Some of you are missing the forest for the trees.
Yes, Dean Takahashi admits he is extremely poor at some games. The Cuphead video is one example of this suckiness.
But how did this lack of skill take away from his coverage of stuff like the cancellation of Titan or the defects of the original Xbox 360? How does his platforming skill translate into his competency at writing those stories or any of the other articles he wrote in his 25 years writing for video games.
Some of you insist on the nicest terms that you would never take someone like Mr. Takahashi seriously because of this self-admitted suckiness. That his credibility as a games writer is up for question because his level of competency at playing some games is not to your standards.
I hope you understand that you're just as ignorant as the mouthbreathers on Twitter and Reddit telling him to go kill himself. Not as awful, but just as misinformed.
Yes, Dean Takahashi admits he is extremely poor at some games. The Cuphead video is one example of this suckiness.
But how did this lack of skill take away from his coverage of stuff like the cancellation of Titan or the defects of the original Xbox 360? How does his platforming skill translate into his competency at writing those stories or any of the other articles he wrote in his 25 years writing for video games.
Some of you insist on the nicest terms that you would never take someone like Mr. Takahashi seriously because of this self-admitted suckiness. That his credibility as a games writer is up for question because his level of competency at playing some games is not to your standards.
I hope you understand that you're just as ignorant as the mouthbreathers on Twitter and Reddit telling him to go kill himself. Not as awful, but just as misinformed.
Yeah but that requires reading, and if half of the posts on this page are anything to go by, I don't know why people are complaining. They can't/don't read articles, so why should they care what he writes?
To get over the pillar? I think it did, but maybe I'm wrong. It took way longer than it should by any reasonable standards anyway.
I know what I did and didn't do, if you want to call that rationalizing and act like I'm harassing people or call me a dipshit then sure, go ahead. I just gave a summary of what actually happened.
It was not intended as a self deprecating video. They changed the title afterwards, the original was a normal ass title a la "Gamescom preview gameplay of Cuphead". There was no other context to begin with, at least not before he started fabricating said context afterwards. The article was written after the video title got changed. Listen, I got no problem with the guy, all the best to him. I won't take anything that he writes about games seriously and I don't get how anyone would let him write gameplay related stuff. That's all.
Cthulhu_Steev
Member
If you'd seen how often I get stuck in Lego games, seriously. I miss the most obvious things, those games are like my trap card.
It goes without saying that the ant boy opinions are insignificant, yeah.
I'm not really interested in ranking the objective importance of different perspectives when it comes to 2D action game criticism, personally, but it should be obvious that my disinterest in Dean's opinion has no bearing on whether or not there's an audience for it and whether or not I think he should voice it.
Riposte
Member
I think Dean Takahashi or the particular details is actually irrelevant to why this became such an issue. It's actually an old battle that is still being fought, hence all the invocations of "gamergate!".
Skill itself is a mechanism of "gatekeeping", it effectively creates hierarchies of players (and one would assume this hierarchy mostly overlaps with the "understanding" of the game). The question is whether videogame criticism or analysis should be aligned and valued along those hierarchies, i.e., are all opinions equal in value? The published game journalist or critics, who are under the most scrutiny, just happen to align with the belief that makes their output have to meet fewer ("elitist") standards, but ideas go a bit beyond that. The big worry is about "inclusiveness", a sort of ideal often held to be the highest goal. The need to for skill effectively weeds people out, it excludes them; to be pro-skill, is to be pro-exclusion.
If it wasn't obvious from the language here, this is all tied together to difficulty or how game mechanics (which often obtain "meaning" from difficulty) are not perceived as "artistic". If the part of games that make you fail (completely, not temporarily) is not art, then you don't need to succeed at the game to be an art critic and you don't need to (in fact, you mustn't) put failure into your game as an artist.
I'm most amused by the canards involved though. There was a facebook rant, by a game journo, which used the political winds to try to pair this incident (effectively, pro-expertise by the "gamers") with the common distrust of news media (anti-expertise), i.e., if you think someone should be good at the games they review, you are anti-expertise. Just in this thread, there is a lazy attempt to associate calling out a lack of skill with insecurity; the idea that your opponents believe what they believe because of a mental or personality defect is obviously popular, because of how convenient it is. Finally, there's the lecturing how if there is some small amount of harassment, it means you cannot take part in criticism or mockery of an individual. "Huh? You think that's clever/funny? Yeah, well, what about these bad people who agree with you? Hmmm!?" This is fairly asinine because there isn't a single important or controversial opinion you can have that isn't associated with some amount of meanness in human interaction by someone, somewhere.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Oh please.
Niceguydan8
Member
It took him a minute and a half.
Hyperbole is useless and weakens your point. It would serve you better to be more informed about the topic.
The issue I saw a lot (and hold myself) is that it was their only video on Cuphead. Videos coming out of Gamescon are meant to inform the viewer of how the game works and this was a poor showing of the game. It felt like an attempt to get the coverage out there as fast as possible for those previous clicks at the expense of the game. If there had been another video with a better display of the gameplay, I doubt this would be be such a big deal. I am aware that the amount of coverage one can get from these places can be small.
You go to Giant Bomb Quick Looks and there are plenty of "you suck" comments, but their back and forth commentary adds a lot to inform you, even if their gameplay is below average. Even commentary in post would elevate a poor display of skill. You can't tell in this video if he's having a good time, but it's frustrating to watch and that's not a good feeling to be connected to the game. Same thing was true with the Polygon Doom video. Granted, both of these are well below the mishaps Giant Bomb encounter.
Super Bunnyhop posted some "journalist-journalist" stuff from Dean Takahashi and that seems to be his forte in the industry, but critic/media (hype people)/investigator all gets slammed together in this industry as simply "game journalists". Everyone has to pull double/triple duty because every site has to be a one-stop-click-generating shop and it hurts the individuals. I'm more incline to blame the higher ups of the site, the industry as a whole than Dean, and the unwilling of gamers to read an addition to the video. Critics/Media need a certain level of competency - not in all games but their chosen area and the higher ups should assign them accordingly - but investigating aspects of the industry doesn't need a deep understanding of the games themselves. All three of these branches, however, have the purpose to inform the viewer/reader and should base all decision (including publication) around it. Media inform people of how games play. Critic inform you if a purchase it worthwhile. Investigators inform you of stories going on in the industry.
And needless to say, the harassment is bullshit.
Bleh, disregard the above thrown together in a few minutes and read Bunnyhop's far more articulate write up on the situation.
https://www.patreon.com/posts/14270750
You go to Giant Bomb Quick Looks and there are plenty of "you suck" comments, but their back and forth commentary adds a lot to inform you, even if their gameplay is below average. Even commentary in post would elevate a poor display of skill. You can't tell in this video if he's having a good time, but it's frustrating to watch and that's not a good feeling to be connected to the game. Same thing was true with the Polygon Doom video. Granted, both of these are well below the mishaps Giant Bomb encounter.
Super Bunnyhop posted some "journalist-journalist" stuff from Dean Takahashi and that seems to be his forte in the industry, but critic/media (hype people)/investigator all gets slammed together in this industry as simply "game journalists". Everyone has to pull double/triple duty because every site has to be a one-stop-click-generating shop and it hurts the individuals. I'm more incline to blame the higher ups of the site, the industry as a whole than Dean, and the unwilling of gamers to read an addition to the video. Critics/Media need a certain level of competency - not in all games but their chosen area and the higher ups should assign them accordingly - but investigating aspects of the industry doesn't need a deep understanding of the games themselves. All three of these branches, however, have the purpose to inform the viewer/reader and should base all decision (including publication) around it. Media inform people of how games play. Critic inform you if a purchase it worthwhile. Investigators inform you of stories going on in the industry.
And needless to say, the harassment is bullshit.
Bleh, disregard the above thrown together in a few minutes and read Bunnyhop's far more articulate write up on the situation.
https://www.patreon.com/posts/14270750
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Ok, so a review he posted which you admit did literally nothing to anyone or any consequence still impacts your credibility of him, even despite the fact that it happened a decade ago.
Yes, I do believe I understand your perspective. It just so happens to be extremely loathsome and foolish to me. But go on holding mistakes over people's heads for years and years even after they've made amends, I'm sure that will go over great.