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Venturebeat: Our Cuphead runneth over
- Thread starter BY2K
- Start date
Jonneh3003
Banned
Everything surrounding this is nonsense. The internet needs to stop harassing this man.
MHWilliams
Member
I would agree with that assessment. That said, it wouldn't have much bearing on Takahashi's ability to report on games, which is generally his focus.
Apart from the abuse I find the people that are using this video as an assessment of skills the weirdest.
It was at gamescom so hardly a relaxing environment.
Are you guys not human? Have you never had entirely blond moments?
The other day I was playing after a long day with some friends and I kept jumping over the box instead of taking cover behind it. I was tired and had recently played a game where the buttons were switched.
But that evening it didn't happen once or twice. Nope kept happening until I took it as a cue to get some sleep.
It was at gamescom so hardly a relaxing environment.
Are you guys not human? Have you never had entirely blond moments?
The other day I was playing after a long day with some friends and I kept jumping over the box instead of taking cover behind it. I was tired and had recently played a game where the buttons were switched.
But that evening it didn't happen once or twice. Nope kept happening until I took it as a cue to get some sleep.
Guys...he's not a reviewer. He is not a game reviewer. That is not his job. He was not reviewing Cuphead.
He's a tech/business journalist that primarily covers the industry. On rare occasions, perhaps just 1% of his work, will he review a game...but he was NEVER going to be reviewing Cuphead. This whole attack is focused on his inability to review the game but it was never going to be the case in the first place.
Nitpicker_Red
Member
Yes, he's quite competent as journalist it seems, he just has an enormous blind spot when it comes to verifying videogame history. (not skills which are not that relevant, just pure lack of interest or experience resulting in lack of base knowledge)
His now edited remark in his game preview article (not review) shows his mind is conflating every "hard" 2D platforming videogame with Super Meat Boy (because doesn't know better). By his own confession, both in gameplay (jumping on enemies) and game analysis (various comparisons), he is using Super Mario as his sole reference for the game (big "2D platformer" bucket?), as if he never experienced Megaman (that he likes to diss apparently) or Contra, or Metroid... Those are the signs that he doesn't care/doesn't know about some classic games and their lineage.
So while he's competent for tech/industry coverage (interviewing a company/production chain/people), he often has no idea when it comes to game genres themselves and their expectations/tropes (don't jump on enemies in a platformer-shooter, look for the skill tree in an RPG...) or don't have enough interest to research beforehand.
And (to his primary audience) it doesn't matter that he doesn't know what he's talking about when talking about games. That's not what he's known for.
It would be all meaningless if he was never tasked to write about games and gameplay specifically. It can be seen as a mean prank from his colleagues to suggest uploading the video+preview article as a joke. It exposed him to a different audience than his usual one, in an element he doesn't master (videogames, including their gameplay lineage and history), with the presentation suggesting he's a "game journalist" and not an "industry journalist". All the other examples people have posted seems to be times he also was tasked with reviewing/previewing a game, which seems to be a minority of his work.
Wat, it's one of the most basic and straight forward tutorials i've ever seen lol
Oh, I can agree with that. It's clear that he lacks a deep understanding of games themselves. That much is obvious.
Just watched the video. Wow. He sure is awful at videogames.
I mean... maybe he should pursue a journalism job in a different field. I certainly don't think he should be reviewing games, as his experience with them will be pretty skewed by his complete lack of basic gaming ability.
I mean... maybe he should pursue a journalism job in a different field. I certainly don't think he should be reviewing games, as his experience with them will be pretty skewed by his complete lack of basic gaming ability.
Stormblessed
Member
MidnightWatcher
Neo Member
I'm sorry, What?!? The crew at GiantBomb are some of the most respected games critics in the industry and are known for their knowledge and experience, especially Jeff. But opinions i guess...
The problem is that people are saying he is a reviewer first and foremost. That's a very small part of his job.
...but ultimately, none of that matters. His lack of skill is open for critique, obviously - he was beyond awful at the game.
The real issue lies with the attacks against him. There is no reason for it and it's become so stupidly common. This is what should be explored - the sheer cruelty of people that is spiraling out of control over the past few years. It is absolutely getting worse. Much MUCH worse.
PhantomThief
Banned
Yeah I love the guys at Giantbomb but they have a knack for being bad at playing videogames though.
PhantomThief
Banned
Dark10x I totally agree with you but noone itt is saying that harrasment is ok, because it just isnt. Noone is arguing that.
DigitalRicket
Member
This in itself doesn't necessarily have to do with ineptitude. My wife does this constantly with every game she plays. She will be telling me, "I don't know what to do" while a character in the game is literally explaining the mechanics to her on what to do next or where to go. Though, in my wife's case this all stems from a comprehension learning disability she's had to fight her entire life. Being able to focus on multiple things can be tough for some people but I also would like to argue the not every game has to be fore everyone.
But more to the point, the argument is silly against games critics concerning their gameplay abilities since sports analysts and commentators or personalities rarely have any skill in the sports they talk over unless they are former players. Heck, I watched so much Hitman played through various streams and Twitch channels that when my wife got the game I could tell her all the mechanics, where to go, and what buttons did what, and I had never played the game. Game critics stare at games all day long so their opinions should be valued regardless of their own personal skill level.
(Hope my post wasn't too all over the place. I'm at work)
Messofanego
Banned
Moot point. This blew up because of the harassment coming from gamergate types like Ian Miles Cheong.
https://theoutline.com/post/2218/gamergate-will-never-die-alt-right-trump
Simply Sami
Member
Strange statement.
It's known to me that tennis journalists are the worst at playing tennis. It makes me wonder how they even got there in the first place.
It's known to me that football journalists are the worst at playing football. It makes me wonder how they even got there in the first place.
Don't you see how strange those statements sound? They not hired for their gaming abilities. They are hired also for their journalistic ability too.
This has happened for me too.
I typically dig action games but sometimes when I play a game with my mind turn-off and keep repeatedly dying until I finally says in my mind " alright, this time it's real ".
This mostly happened when I was just going through the motion to finish a game or my backlog.
Man, I just watched that video.
The watching jump-dash part of the tutorial filled me with a rage like I've never felt before. I wanted to punch something. Lol
It had nothing to do with journalistic integrity, it was just frustrating to watch. I cut the video off shortly thereafter, because I couldn't stomach it.
People trying to use this video to get someone fired, justify harassment or support their bullshit counter-correct political affiliations has elevated my rage beyond that of the jump-dash segment. I didn't think that was possible.
Everyone should have a voice. Even those who aren't mechanically skilled. I Imagine Dean would struggle with any platformer or shooter on the market. I don't see how the tutorial could be any easier and still teach the games mechanics. World 1-1 Super Mario Bros is harder than this tutorial. But that doesn't mean his opinion is invalid. There are likely others who share his lack of skill, who would like to be entertained by video games, and perhaps that's who he speaks for.
I disagree that all games should be easy to get into. we need to allow the creators to target their vision. That said, journalists shouldn't be expected to appreciate every creators vision either.
The watching jump-dash part of the tutorial filled me with a rage like I've never felt before. I wanted to punch something. Lol
It had nothing to do with journalistic integrity, it was just frustrating to watch. I cut the video off shortly thereafter, because I couldn't stomach it.
People trying to use this video to get someone fired, justify harassment or support their bullshit counter-correct political affiliations has elevated my rage beyond that of the jump-dash segment. I didn't think that was possible.
Everyone should have a voice. Even those who aren't mechanically skilled. I Imagine Dean would struggle with any platformer or shooter on the market. I don't see how the tutorial could be any easier and still teach the games mechanics. World 1-1 Super Mario Bros is harder than this tutorial. But that doesn't mean his opinion is invalid. There are likely others who share his lack of skill, who would like to be entertained by video games, and perhaps that's who he speaks for.
I disagree that all games should be easy to get into. we need to allow the creators to target their vision. That said, journalists shouldn't be expected to appreciate every creators vision either.
Regardless, it's obviously untrue. Some people writing about games lack skill, sure, but others are perfectly capable. Blanket statements don't work here.
Seeing this and Giantbomb's premium unlock of episode 1 of Steal My Sunshine the other day, I think I get why this blew up so badly. In Steal My Sunshine, the team struggles and complains with both controls and level design that seems totally basic, but the video comes off as funny because they're laughing and joking throughout so their inability to play the game with any skill doesn't completely overwhelm the video. Without commentary in the Venturebeat video, it's hard to get that same feeling, that the gameplay can be bad but the video still enjoyable, even though the title and description hint at it.
Ha, indeed. It also finally helped me understand why so many complained about it. The controls are fantastic in Sunshine. The camera, though, does fall apart but not until later stages.
TimExecutor
Neo Member
I agree with those that say there was no need to send him hate messages on Twitter.
For me, I simply made a mental note not to take any of his reviews seriously. Simple as that.
For me, I simply made a mental note not to take any of his reviews seriously. Simple as that.
PhantomThief
Banned
Uhm, the video was also posted here on gaf. Just because some asshole gamergate idiots started harassing the guy, doesn't mean this cannot be discussed right?
Noone here on gaf is saying harassment is ok.
PhantomThief
Banned
Would you say it's important for a soccer or tennis journalist to know basic rules of the game?
The harassment is horrible, is totally unjustified, and is another disgusting example of how toxic the gaming community can be at times.
That's an obvious point.
The less obvious point is the one that matters, and the one I hadn't really thought of until that, frankly embarrassing video (I say embarrassing not because of a lack of skill, but his refusal to read the text on screen and attempt to follow its extremely simple instructions), to be a game journalist you need a certain level of skill and understanding of games. You don't need to be Billy Mitchell, but you at the very least need to be able follow the instructions in a tutorial. If this man reviewed Cuphead, and then I saw this video, it would seriously colour my opinion of the review, and in my opinion, rightfully so.
That's an obvious point.
The less obvious point is the one that matters, and the one I hadn't really thought of until that, frankly embarrassing video (I say embarrassing not because of a lack of skill, but his refusal to read the text on screen and attempt to follow its extremely simple instructions), to be a game journalist you need a certain level of skill and understanding of games. You don't need to be Billy Mitchell, but you at the very least need to be able follow the instructions in a tutorial. If this man reviewed Cuphead, and then I saw this video, it would seriously colour my opinion of the review, and in my opinion, rightfully so.
He wasn't that good, but so what? Just because he's a game journalist doesn't mean he has to be good at every genre or instantly grasp the mechanics. People love to complain and bully others over the most useless shit that doesn't affect them. Its a shame how so many enthusiasts get off on these things
Well he was never going to review the game, they wanted someone at Gamescom to get footage, and he was the only one there who could and never attempted to claim that he was any good. It was supposed to be a funny, sort of "I went to Gamescom and all I got was this pathetic Cuphead gameplay" sort of video, but no one really understood the joke.
Good thing he didn't trash Cuphead at all, let alone review it. So what are you saying again?
The guy isn't really a reviewer, so it doesn't actually matter how bad he is. That being said, it was impressively bad. It was a tutorial in a platforming game, which is a genre that has existed nearly as long as games have. The language of platformers should be burnt into his brain by this point. It's like growing up watching movies your while life, but not understanding the language of film.
Being bad at things is authentic, sure, but those aren't the people you want giving quality judgments on games. Which he doesn't, so who cares. Really bad, though.
Being bad at things is authentic, sure, but those aren't the people you want giving quality judgments on games. Which he doesn't, so who cares. Really bad, though.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
I'm torn. On one hand he's right that gamers come with all kinds of skills (or lack thereof), but on the other hand not every game is meant for everyone - and they shouldn't be - and most aren't gonna buy it anyway. To get a fair verdict on a game, shouldn't the preview or review be done by someone who largely represents the type of gamer that is actually likely to be interested in said game. Should someone who only plays causal phone games review Bloodborne? I think maybe not, because that review wouldn't be very useful to anyone. I do not agree that devs should make sure every game they make is enjoyable by every kind of player. They should make they kind of game they want to make, and those who are likely to enjoy it should play it. Others are welcome to try it as well, but they should not come asking for an easy mode in a game that wasn't made for them. That kind of entitlement is not warranted.
Would you say it's important for a tennis journalist to intricately know the rules of all sports?
Would you be surprised to see a world class DOTA 2 player struggle to play Ghouls and Ghosts? Or a hardcore turn based strategy buff fail to grasp dual analog controls?
I'm sure he would agree since he was never going to review Cuphead and was only asked to capture footage because he was on hand at the show.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
A tennis journalist doesn't cover skeet shooting, so I don't see how that's really relevant. Unless you're saying that the games journalist who's only familiar with casual phone games shouldn't be covering Souls games? In that case I agree.
That's basically what I'm saying, yeah.
I don't think Dean is the type of journalist that normally covers games like Cuphead. He's not familiar with this style of game and wasn't going to review it. He was asked to capture it as the "man on the ground". That's it.
It also highlights the inherent challenges in covering games though I do feel he should have been able to more smoothly intuit the situation.
If I were asked to capture a MOBA at E3 the results would be disastrous, I'd imagine. I've never played one and I have no idea how they are supposed to work but I hear daunting things about them. I'd still get the footage but it would likely be terrible. The difference is that I wouldn't just post bad footage in this way, which is where he made a huge mistake.
That said, I agree that his inability to grasp what seems so incredibly simple is genuinely shocking. No doubt about it. It's a very strange thing.
Gormenghast
Member
The real issue is the overall structure of every debate and every controversy. This one is just one good example amidst too many.
There's this message that is telling:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=248305166&postcount=46
You cannot have anymore any "but". You are either black or white. Right or wrong. With us or against us. Friend or enemy. It's a purely tribal war where identity (political or otherwise) is everything.
You cannot have a nuanced opinion. You cannot examine one problem and explain there are a number of aspects to consider about it. Because if you do this type of analysis it's not anymore clear whose side you're fighting for. People don't understand anymore if they should agree or disagree with you, because people agree not on the basis of good arguments, but on the basis of group identity. When they understand who you are then they'll automatically agree or disagree.
And because this BINARY view is applied to every single debate, then you get cases like this. Where there are some legitimate concerns whether or not a journalist should be required to have some basic competencies about the subject he's going to cover, yet harassment shouldn't be justified either.
And on twitter every single argument is just another type of straw man, for example misrepresenting the other group's thesis as: "ANYONE WHO WRITES ABOUT GAMES NEEDS TO BE A MASTER".
Yet no one said that. But if you then try to exhibit some moderation in your own argument, then this moderation is pointed at as a rhetorical trick to try to hide your true opinion.
So what's happening lately and at large is that our world grows in complexity and people's way to deal with growing complexity is to rely on mighty simplification. Mighty simplification is to divide the world in black and white, enemy or friend. And then you FIGHT.
You can't really be a master of every genre especially if you're a writer who has to write about a lot of the intricacies and reviews of a game. There are quite a number of writers who tend to play averagely but can dive extraordinarily deep into writing what makes a particular game good or, for Dean in particular, a dive into the business end of the gaming industry. Dean is also pretty honest about what he does too. If he makes a mistake he will take it to heart and even amend it. The original article for the Cuphead video had a self depreciating title, even! So he knows he sucked at it.
People saying he doesn't deserve his job as a game's journalist or reviewer or whatever are flat out idiots.
The only one that doesn't need to be a journalist of any kind is Ian ' Holocaust Denier' Cheong.
People saying he doesn't deserve his job as a game's journalist or reviewer or whatever are flat out idiots.
The only one that doesn't need to be a journalist of any kind is Ian ' Holocaust Denier' Cheong.
Yes, that's quite true to a degree.
What makes this tricky, though, is that we are often dealing with abhorrent people on the extreme. These people are SO unreasonable to the point where it seems to poison the discussion happening in the middle.
...but cruelty on the internet doesn't even need to center on a delicate debate or murky issue. It can be as simple as someone disliking the way you look, disliking the way you do something or some other bullshit reason. THAT is what gets me more than anything else and it seems to be occurring more often than ever.
It's good that he's responded to the criticism - something needed to be said due to all the drama it's generated, and I feel sorry that the guy's been at the centre of this pretty disgusting witch hunt over games journalism.
We need opinions like this about games - as he said himself in the rebuttal, games should be reviewed from a low-end perspective. Cuphead is going to bring in a big audience of people purely by the strength of it's art style alone, but if they're going to want to see everything the game has to offer then they'll have to get used to it's gameplay.
Should Cuphead have been a different genre so they could of given it more mass appeal? Absolutely not - the developers vision for the title and it should be respected, and I'm sure that the aesthetic and mechanics will have more interplay then we're seeing so far.
But people need to be a bit more open to the idea that Contra style games aren't for everyone, but Cuphead is going to be reaching these kinds of audiences due to its look. And while it's easy for people to say "git gud" - there doesn't seem to be a lot of support from the game to help people improve.
The tutorial in particular is an absolute nightmare from a user experience end - and as someone who builds training programmes for a living, it wasn't hard to notice why. I could see how someone wouldn't pick up the finer points of the game from there.
There's going to be enough reviews from people on release day from hardcore platforming fans - or people who are going to give it a pass based on the strength of its presentation - that I'm actually going to be looking for opinions from people of my skill level or lower to hear of their experience of the game - because as great as it looks, I'm going to be more likely to watch lets play footage to appreciate the presentation then have to struggle through the game.
We need opinions like this about games - as he said himself in the rebuttal, games should be reviewed from a low-end perspective. Cuphead is going to bring in a big audience of people purely by the strength of it's art style alone, but if they're going to want to see everything the game has to offer then they'll have to get used to it's gameplay.
Should Cuphead have been a different genre so they could of given it more mass appeal? Absolutely not - the developers vision for the title and it should be respected, and I'm sure that the aesthetic and mechanics will have more interplay then we're seeing so far.
But people need to be a bit more open to the idea that Contra style games aren't for everyone, but Cuphead is going to be reaching these kinds of audiences due to its look. And while it's easy for people to say "git gud" - there doesn't seem to be a lot of support from the game to help people improve.
The tutorial in particular is an absolute nightmare from a user experience end - and as someone who builds training programmes for a living, it wasn't hard to notice why. I could see how someone wouldn't pick up the finer points of the game from there.
There's going to be enough reviews from people on release day from hardcore platforming fans - or people who are going to give it a pass based on the strength of its presentation - that I'm actually going to be looking for opinions from people of my skill level or lower to hear of their experience of the game - because as great as it looks, I'm going to be more likely to watch lets play footage to appreciate the presentation then have to struggle through the game.
Not necessarily. I feel there's a lot more nuance that can go into expressing one's understanding of a particular language. Even understanding the language of say a platformer doesn't always make you a better player.
How often have people ragged on devs for sometimes being kind of mediocre at their own game? And yes that is a thing that happens. It should be understandable that a good portion of that person's time was spent in the creating process of the game and they can't always be the ones testing it either.
I feel similar for writers who have to put in a fair amount of time expressing their thoughts and understanding of a game so that it's digestible for people to understand.
They understand the language and are utilizing it in different areas.
There's also the skill gap with platformers too ranging from super baby easy to being whipped in hell hard. Or even how platformers are no longer the dominant genre and the audience and market shifted in the early 2000's away from platformers and recently we're seeing a resurgence of platformers.
Glass Shark
Banned
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SatelliteOfLove
Member
And that's why the discussion of journalists' skill and such is moot.
Worthless professional assholes have weaponized this issue. To argue along any lines is to be in service of their fuckery.
No joshing about Takahashi's mistakes, no discussion over the level of expertise over a genre to voice a professional opinion, no wry repackaging of hard games as intense will-breakers, it's just straight to the asynchronous anonymity assault in service of their needs.
Indeed, people just seem to hate the guy and misconstrue ideas about his true position in the industry.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Wait til you find out the general gamer power levels™ of the people who actually make video games.
WHOLE LOTTA YAMCHAS
"Guys I'm now a game journalist and despite my awesome gaming skills they keep making me write articles about stuff instead of playing games. What's up with that?"
This is nonsense. Gamergates are full of hate and are going to pile on him for nothing, but you're lumping everyone who found the video baffling in the same sack. When the thread got posted, before Dean responded, i commented about it and found it absurd too. I don't hate Dean Takahashi, i don't want him to be fired, i don't want to make his life miserable, but i found the video absurd. And it's pretty dishonest to say it was all a joke when the original video had nothing stating that (title was changed after) and Dean defended his gameplay skills on twitter. They're doing this now, after the controversy, probably because the backlash is getting toxic and this genuinely sucks, but still
This generalization of "you found Dean video absurd? Gamergater!" is absurd and do no good. It's perfectly possible to find the video awful and don't want Dean to suffer at the same time.