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Voices From Europes Far Right (NYTimes)
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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AmaterasuOni
Banned
They'd flee as there's no welfare anymore and war is imminent. It's a given.
and they would be wrong about economic impact. hungary for example put up walls, and now they are hurting with no one to fill jobs because of their strict rules as people leave the country for better jobs elsewhere. lol
People really dont realize that most migrants, immigrants etc really do the jobs no one else wants to do. lol
jakonovski
Member
What? Are you suggesting immigrants can get welfare benefits without the authorities knowing of their presence in Finland?
Kill Your Masters
Member
You can see such comments on anti-immigration videos posted on Youtube. they complain that the young people are not willing to fight and die in a war they maybe do not want to partake in. (with mostly evil-ish sides and whoever wins, normal people lose)
Take my information as you like.
its a rethoric spouted by the far right
KonradLaw
Member
The idea that those migrants would fill any positions in hungarian economy is hilarious. None of them would stay in Hungary anyway. Orban put walls because he needed boosts in ratings and was afraid that other countries might close the borders, trapping the migrants inside Hungary.
Exactly, the left has failed just as much as the right in protecting the new right wing voters from it's effects. In many countires, it was left wing politicians that actively campaigned for it with things like EU membership ect.
Just promising higher benefits won't solve this, and pretending open borders don't put pressure on job markets for the locals is just being dishonest.
It's great for the economy, and looking at the EU as a whole (and even the world) globalisation and free trade is a good thing to combat poverty, but that doesn't exactly help those that get left behind. They feel betrayed by the established parties and look for other people to give them answers to their problems.
To be fair, it's not really something that has a solution, the world is changing and technology and globalisation is not something you can reverse. Showing an alternative to "just kick all the new guys out" should still be possible though.
Edit: also, many treating regular immigration and asylum seekers as the same thing is one of the worst aspects of this discussion.
jakonovski
Member
You're saying that essentially because you want your country to keep getting a free ride in the EU. Which is another one of those ironic bits. You're just as bad as any economic migrant.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I blame a lack of investment in education. Statistics even back that up with an overwhelming disparity in education and far right voters in my country.
I'm just talking about Austria, but the vast majority of Afghan refugees are illiterates or very poor educated, it's delusional to think that these people can fill jobs in Austria or Hungary.
jakonovski
Member
I once read a bit by some author or other about the downside of meritocracy: the more meritocratic a society is, the more of the smart people are accepted by the elites. Which has the consequence of making protest movements less competent because there's nobody inside to squash the stupid ideas.
I think he was fairly prophetic.
I think he was fairly prophetic.
ClosingADoor
Member
For Finland they can be lookup up here http://www.migri.fi/about_us/statistics/statistics_on_asylum_and_refugees
2015 would be 32 476 people registered. 20 485 from Iraq. 5 214 Afghanistan. 877 Syria.
The less educated are probably also in a worse social en economic position, and thus carry more of the burden of immigration, due to them living in low income neighborhoods, competition on low wage labor and being hit harder by cuts in social programs. It's not as easy as just saying "educate yourself."
AmaterasuOni
Banned
Yes. It's easy to abuse our system.
They are all deep in debt, the ongoing minimizing of the public sector made them all full of s*** debt. If the public sector is already in debt how do you define them as rich?
jakonovski
Member
You are completely delusional about this. Seriously.
AmaterasuOni
Banned
Yeah. I currently study in a University of Applied Sciences and the immigration wave hit us, students, badly. We're poor anyway.
AmaterasuOni
Banned
Or you are. It really is up to where you stand. You believe in your propaganda, I believe mine. I have the data to back up my claims, do you? I can point you to the most hated politician in Finland: Jussi Halla-aho. He backs up everything he says with reports, data and studies. He uses governmental and police reports, reports from all over Europe. Still people think he is just a right-wing idiot.
The thing is, truth really hurts when you don't agree with the facts.
jakonovski
Member
Well feel free to point me to this money pot from which anyone can take money anonymously. Could go for a few hundred euros.
Lol come on have some perspective. Look at the GDPs.
Hey remember when he said that leftist liberal women politicians and the women who vote them should be raped by "multicultural predators"?
Or that police should headshot protestors.
What a swell guy that Halla-Aho and not a piece of shit at all.
jakonovski
Member
As a pointer for others, Jussi Halla-Aho is Finland's Nigel Farage.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
According to the United Nations, only 33% of the refugees are from Syria. People from Iraq, Afghanistan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Ivory Coast, Iran, etc. aren't refugees, they're economic migrants. Even many of the Syrians refugees aren't real refugees, many of them had been living in Turkey for a couple of years before they crossed the Mediterranean in a boat. One of the most harrowing images in recent years was that photo of the drowned boy. It turned out his family had been living in Turkey for three years before the father decided to cross the sea to Greece. In my view those people aren't real refugees.
AmaterasuOni
Banned
I do. It was taken out of context. He said IF someone should be raped by multicultural predators, it should be the people who brings them here, not the innocent people.
I hope you can link this one. I can't recall this at all.
He's the reason I woke up in the political field. Only politician who is not afraid to speak the truth (and use data to back it up). I hate True Finns though, bunch of religious idiots.
It's called social welfare program. If you have a decent enough job, good for you, you don't even need to know how you can abuse it. If you are jobless, there's many ways to abuse it. If you're an immigrant, there's even more ways as the social workers cannot do a proper background check on you.
Prime crotch
Banned
They're both innocent, no one's accomplice of nothing here, on this nighmare scenario that dude is painting.
I'm probably not the only one who still finds that incredibly disturbing.
Wikiquote seems to have everything everyone's said, so...
"Pelottavaa on vain se, että poliisi ei vallitsevassa mediailmapiirissä voi ampua luotia päähän kiviä nakkelevalle ihmissaastalle. Itse vasemmistohuligaanihan on vain liikaa amerikkalaisia elokuvia nähnyt hyytelötytinä, joka kaatuu puhaltamalla." (19.5.2006 Scriptan vieraskirjassa)"
Isn't Finland's economy going down the drain anyway? Closing the borders ain't gonna bring back the paper industry or Nokia's glory days. It will bring a short relief (depending on how much it costs to keep people out) but not solve the inherent problems.
Which is a problem for other countries too, the public sector had lost it's power to globalized capital movements and you aren't going to get that back with an immigration stop.
Fun times ahead anyways.
Which is a problem for other countries too, the public sector had lost it's power to globalized capital movements and you aren't going to get that back with an immigration stop.
Fun times ahead anyways.
Changes everything. Holy shit.
ClosingADoor
Member
They would still need to be registered. So illegal immigrants (who are not registered by the government) should not be able to get anything. I don't see how they would also, since these things don't go in cash anyway, so there is always a paper trail.
I don't doubt there is abuse taking place, but not from random illegal people in the country.
The immigration is a tiny blip on the radar in the Finnish economical shitstorm. The real problem is that the gov is short term slashing everything that could keep us afloat on long term. The forest industry is not coming back and all we have now is incredibly well-educated workforce and tech fields, so of course they're slashing education with machete. Few years ahead and we'll have no competitive edge left anywhere.
AmaterasuOni
Banned
It's the rhetoric world we live in now. The leftist boss of Finland is saying "left-wing violence is more acceptable than the right-wing violence". Right bad, left good, am I right? I hate both sides, both are equally bad.
And in fact I even say that Islam is the biggest threat to Europe most likely ever. And as a reminder to all the left-wingers, you can't be a racist against religions. I loathe most religions equally, especially the fundamental ones. And that is my freedom to loathe them.
How can GDP represent the wealth of the state when the vast majority of it its made from private sector whom the way they spend money is not a subject of buget .
jakonovski
Member
They don't hand random people money, you have to apply for assistance with exhaustive personal details. And if you don't exist in the system, you get nothing until that's sorted.
Seriously, educate yourself.
edit: and like ClosingADoor said, you don't get cash. You'll get money to your bank account or in cases where money might be misused, a payment order for whatever essential good or service you're lacking.
AmaterasuOni
Banned
Ah, these were the old Jussi's rantings. Before his political career. His sarcasm is great. I find them funny and satirical. I'm pretty sure Takku and Rasmus has same kind of stupid shit targeted to the right-wing, am I not right?
KonradLaw
Member
No country is getting a free ride. And just because you're a member of EU doesn't mean you should accept every disastrous decision the council tries to make. We accept vast majority. Once in a blue moon we can say no.
He said the countries were rich. They are. Yes the public sector can't effectively tax as much of the wealth as in the past and that is a problem I agree. That goes far beyond immigration and is changing Europe as we know it. Well unless we use the EU to take back control.
KonradLaw
Member
There have been even cases of people from fricking Carribean flying to Turkey and then making the trek to Europe pretending to be refugees from Syria.
Like..wtf? AmaterasuOni
Banned
You need to educate yourself. These immigrants mostly have fake papers or no papers at all. So you're saying they are not eligible for the system? This is where you are wrong. They do get money right after they've been signed in to the immigration centers. Where do you think this billion euros comes from? It's mostly immigrant related welfare costs.
Yeah, we're going down the gutter. Like really fast. We need to act fast or we're basically bankrupt. It could be good though, just look at Iceland, but we would need to get rid of the bribed EU-centric politicians first (and basically do a Fixit and get rid of EU and EU's oligarchs/elite).
Well, let's examine Jussi Halla-Aho's facts then.
This is by the way just one example. I went to his blog and chose his most recent post about refugees (here)
In his blog he states that:
Translation through google translate, because I'm lazy:
The Finnish Immigration Service Asylum Unit Director Esko Repo told 20.10. misleadingly, that ... "... the majority of asylum seekers have so far received a negative decision."
He then goes on to state:
translation:
Migri's tell about something else. In the current year there has been a total of 1393 positive (asylum, subsidiary protection, humanitarian protection or "other") and 989 negative decicions. Repo has added the excluded (eg. The Dublin cases) and expired (ie the applicant's self-withdrawals) applications to negative decisions. These are, however, not negative decisions because they have not even been studied.
Now, he's technically right there and he makes his case based on those numbers he posted. However he does frame his numbers in an odd way, for example what else would a rejection of an application be other than negative?
By doing this he leaves the majority the applications outside his narrative and thus doesn't have to state that (based on true figures) of all the applications under a third result in positive decision. I don't have the exact table he posted, but these are the total decisions made by Migri in 2015:
Code:
Decision on asylum:
Total positive: 1879
Total negative: 1307
Annulment: 3186
Non-examined applications: 1094
Total: 7466Can you hear the spin?
That is problem number one my friend . I think that the technocrats are using everything on they disposal to orient the public perspective away from the real issue .
The major problem at the moment is not the money but who control the money .We are faced with deep social issues like class discrimination , poverty of mind for the majority,
privatisation on all big public investements some of wich are essential for the existence of civilisation , which have nothing to do with immigrants and more to do with a state who is loosing power ( power mean the means of production and control of money ) and unable to make a buged, fair for the majority of citizens .
At the same time there is a big stigamtisation of anyone who question the establishment and this in my opinion is not a healthy way to progress us forward as there is no evolution without challenge .
jakonovski
Member
When in doubt, move the goalposts eh? I'd like to point you to your own post about illegal immigrants somehow getting welfare without reporting themselves to the authorities.
And with that, I'm afraid I'm done. I can't handle you.
ClosingADoor
Member
The confusion came I think because of the posts about random checks for illegal immigrants and welfare, linking the two together. If you are there illegal, you can't get welfare, because you are not registered.
If you fake your registration, then it can be abused. I don't know how often that happens.
King Tubby
Member
...what the fuck
AmaterasuOni
Banned
Like I said. Fake papers. Finnish Police has reported about these cases. Even welfare workers say they're quite helpless because they do not know their backgrounds and can't check about them. They're just basically giving an acceptenace to most cases.
AmaterasuOni
Banned
And here you need to know that Halla-aho uses extremely dark humor and sarcasm in his blog. People hates him for that.
Nope. Because it's Repo who's doing the spinning.
Prime crotch
Banned
No, it's your rethoric.
come on, that's not how sacrasm works and if it's meant to be a joke it has no pointe (unless you find image conjured by the scentence funny). And i like krass humor.
It's at best the lowest level of political discource if you can even call it that.
I don't think it's a good sign if the politician who "says it how it is" doesn't really means what he says.
AmaterasuOni
Banned
Oh! I though it was Halla-aho who said it. Damn.
AmaterasuOni
Banned
It is out of context. It's before his political career. And he means what he says. It's a counter argument to left-wing rhetoric, which is as bad in Finland. The leftist circlejerks just make the leftist propaganda and rhetoric feel more acceptable (with media abuse) even though it's exactly the same shit right-wing is performing. Violent bullshit from both sides.
Left and right socialism does not differ. They are equally bad. I find it funny that people believe there's two sides, even though both sides are playing in the pockets of the oligarchs who are slowly turning this socialistic hell into a dictatorship. It's an illusion that's called democracy.
But if that feeds your rockets or tickles your skin, go ahead. I'm just saying there's more propaganda in the world than what the "opposite" is spreading. Both left and right thrive in propaganda, that's what creates the illusion. It's all but bullshit.
And you know what makes it really fucking scary? Before both world wars there was huge and widespread uprising of far left and right movements. That shit halves nations, it creates gutter so deep that the result is war. Open your eyes and see what's happening in the political world. We're really fucked up and this shit is hitting us fast and without warning. I'm actually very worried that Islam will be the final catalyst that divides us once more and there will be another world war very soon.
Oh I know, I was simply contrasting the attempt to make a "semicoherent" point (which in itself is something of a strawman) versus the naked racism we get out of this.
Napalm_Frank
Member
Biggest problem of Finnish economy is the Euro and the fact we are not adapting to the competition. Finland can in theory survive in the monetary union long term but it means we need to implement austerity, cut wages, more working hours, cut benefits and all that fun stuff way more than what is happening now because the tools we have to infulence the economy without devaluing the currency are extremely limited.
The thing is the population and unions don't want to take the neccessary steps to be competetive for obvious reasons, the baby steps we are doing now is not nearly enough and it has took years of crying and dragging through the mud. We have been through the same song and dance in the 90s when our own currency was kept from devaluation until the whole system collapsed and they were forced to let it float. We just didn't learn a damn thing unlike the swedes.
OT I know but refugees and immigration is such a small problem for Finland in the grand scheme of things and what's to come. They just happen to be an easy target.
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