ethomaz
Banned
It works on Pascal... you know.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
VRR coming to PS5 via firmware update in Spring 2022
- Thread starter kyliethicc
- Start date
- News
- Status
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Yeah, on the DisplayPort 1.2a ports only first. They had to add hardware support for the HDMI port separately.
It's still h a r d w a r e.
Last edited:
chaseroni
Member
Loxus
Member
It would be nice if you used sources backing up your claims.
Why should I think what your saying over what Sony stated is true?
Are you vetted?
ethomaz
Banned
Old monitors can add (and some did) HDMI's VRR after...
"HDMI Forum's CEO Rob Tobias and Marketing Director Brad Bramy revealed that some of the most exciting features in the HDMI 2.1 specification such as Variable Refresh Rate (VRR), enhanced Audio Return Channel (eARC) and Quick Media Switching (QMS) can be added to certain panels via firmware update. These panels would have to have a "flexible HDMI structure", though, and it is ultimately up to the manufacturer whether they want to release an update or not."
It depends if the manufacture wants or not to release the software.
Of course there is a minimum requirement for that... CRT won't work of course (can you update firmware in CRT at all?).
Edit - Monitors from 2015 received Adaptive Sync update.... probably even there are cases even before that.
Last edited:
ethomaz
Banned
Because the HDMI has minimum requirement.Not over HDMI, try again.
I won't let you twist my words ethomaz
That doesn't change nVidia added Adaptive Sync in these GPUs years after release.
Last edited:
ethomaz
Banned
Nobody thinks that because it was added at driver level in PC.
For example... nVidia just updated their drivers to work on old and new GPUs.
Last edited:
chaseroni
Member
You're so confused man. They didn't ADD adaptive sync, they just made it so it wasn't locked to G-SYNC.
It all works at a hardware level.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
No, just someone who knows how VRR works.
GSync still only works on display port (or hdmi 2.1 too, not sure on that), they just allowed their GPUs to also use some adaptive sync displays, they both run on almost the same standard, it wasn't a matter of software, it was a matter of NVidia not wanting to support things that weren't their proprietary IP. Kinda like how Sony are withholding PS5 VRR support until they get it working on a hardware level on their own TVs first.
It's still all hardware support man.
It's really strange the hill some people choose to die on.
They think Gabe Newell is sitting in a room somewhere furiously coding in VRR support to all games on Steam.
Last edited:
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Loxus
Member
You only know how it works when it comes to frame rates but not if it's dependent on the game itself.
There's at least some credible people saying it works depending on if the game supports it.
While there is only you and a couple of others here on GAF saying it's system level.
I think I'll believe credible places first before you.
And still you provide no sources.
ethomaz
Banned
I wonder why devs had to patch their games on PC to VRR works on Windows 10 UWP...
I mean it should work at system level, no?
MasterCornholio
Member
It's why I believe they won't let this slide because they marketed it with the PS5. They can definitely get sued for false marketing and that should happen if they don't deliver VRR on the system.
intbal
Member
Lots of games.
But the biggest winners would be Tales of Arise and Kingdom Come: Deliverance.
Tales of Arise stays very close to 45fps most of the time (resolution mode).
Kingdom Come: Deliverance has that broken Cryengine 31fps cap (unless they patched the PS4 version to fix it).
Note: A TV/Monitor with a VRR range of 40-60 without LFC won't be of any use to games that run below 40hz like Kingdom Come: Deliverance.
Last edited:
01011001
Banned
ethomaz no sure you understand what VRR is, it's not something that a game developer has to enable.
it is to a degree.
there are games that do not have VRR support on Xbox.
then there are games on Xbox that have VRR support but only if the console is set to 120hz.
The Demo version of Resident Evil 8 has no VRR support for example. The RT mode felt awful to play due to the stutters. the full version on the other hand then supported VRR and felt perfectly smooth.
Watch_Dogs Legion doesn't support VRR when your console is set to 60hz (at least that was the case when I last played it) but it does work if it is set to 120hz.
so either they do in fact have to enable it or these games that have these weird omissions have them due to weird technical issues. either way it is dependent on the developers to properly support VRR.
Last edited:
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Whose the some credible people ? the youtube video with 3000 views you found ? Can you do better than that ?
Anyway, here you go:
--
numerous mentions of requiring compatible hardware, compatible GPU (hardware) and compatible displays (hardware), no mention of games needing updates to support it.
-
What Is AMD FreeSync? FreeSync and FreeSync 2 HDR Explained
What’s the meaning of a monitor or display with FreeSync or FreeSync 2 HDR? AMD’s adaptive sync explained.
The only mention of software in the entire article is that you need the driver that came out when they launched freesync in the first place, no mentions of a game needing support or updates for it.
-
What Is FreeSync? Here's Everything You Need to Know | Digital Trends
AMD's FreeSync is frame-synchronizing technology designed to eliminate screen tearing in games without the performance overhead of V-Sync. Here's how to get it.
www.digitaltrends.com
Another mention that you don't need any secondary software except the driver which added Freesync availability int he first place.
-
Do you want me to post more ? You can find articles like this with very quick and easy google searches.
Meanwhile you can't find any article where anyone talks about needing to update old games specifically so they support VRR.
Did you miss the part where it says 'now that windows 10 added it" ?
Hell, even BC OG Xbox and 360 games which support 60 FPS on the console benefit from VRR. Of course if a game is locked to 30 FPS, it won't do anything if it has frame rate drops cause rarely any VRR displays go below 40hz.
ethomaz
Banned
Can't you read??? Even adding it to Windows 10 doesn't make it work in the game.
They have to patch it.
Last edited:
Dust-by-Monday
Member
Not over HDMI. VRR only works over displayport on Pascal. Sorry.
01011001
Banned
I can name you multiple ones I played within the last 2 years actually.
Aragami 2 has no VRR support/broken VRR for example. (maybe it is patched now, because that game was broken as fuck in every possible way at launch lol)
Last edited:
UWP didn't support VRR because UWP apps weren't allowed to use Exclusive Fullscreen at the time.
All UWP apps, including games, ran a state similar to borderless Windowed mode even when in fullscreen and since borderless windowed in Windows didn't support VRR and ran with forced VSync at all times.
devblogs.microsoft.com
This update brought support for a new hybrid mode, the one that is now forced for all Windows games unless you toggle exclusive fullscreen in the compatibility settings.
Quantum Break's update added support for this mode.
All UWP apps, including games, ran a state similar to borderless Windowed mode even when in fullscreen and since borderless windowed in Windows didn't support VRR and ran with forced VSync at all times.
Unlocked Frame Rate and More Now Enabled for UWP - DirectX Developer Blog
What an exciting few months it’s been for Windows 10 Gamers In the last few months, we’ve taken Windows 10 gaming to a new level by partnering with Microsoft Studios to deliver marquee titles such as: Gears of War: Ultimate Edition,
devblogs.microsoft.com
This update brought support for a new hybrid mode, the one that is now forced for all Windows games unless you toggle exclusive fullscreen in the compatibility settings.
Quantum Break's update added support for this mode.
Last edited:
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
That's an older windows 10 specific issue cause the Win store version of the game didn't run exclusive full screen, it ran borderless windowed mode, you need to have at least the game running exclusively in full screen mode for it.
NVidia also doesn't add game support via drivers, it adds compatible device support in their updates:
Nvidia Game Ready 471.96 driver adds support for six new G-SYNC Compatible displays
Nvidia has launched its newest Game Ready WHQL driver dubbed 471.96. The new driver, though, isn't optimized for any new title, but adds support for six new G-SYNC compatible displays, and more.
www.neowin.net
That sounds more like a your display problem. I've played the Village demo religiously as with the final game on the same display.
The game barely has only a few drops on Xbox in the first place but besides that nothing jumped out to be about VRR being broken.
UWP didn't support VRR because UWP apps weren't allowed to use Exclusive Fullscreen at the time.
All UWP apps, including games, ran a state similar to borderless Windowed mode even when in fullscreen and since borderless windowed in Windows didn't support VRR and ran with forced VSync at all times.
Unlocked Frame Rate and More Now Enabled for UWP - DirectX Developer Blog
What an exciting few months it’s been for Windows 10 Gamers In the last few months, we’ve taken Windows 10 gaming to a new level by partnering with Microsoft Studios to deliver marquee titles such as: Gears of War: Ultimate Edition,
This update brought support for a new hybrid mode, the one that is now forced for all Windows games unless you toggle exclusive fullscreen in the compatibility settings.
Quantum Break's update added support for this mode.
Thank you for posting this.
If you're still seeing tearing on a VRR display that's a game specific issue, like Halo Infinite's 120hz mode also not working nice with VRR.
These are exceptions .. bugs .. not the expected behavior.
Last edited:
01011001
Banned
so explain how the demo didn't support VRR on my TV but the full version does? and that being an issue with my TV???
how would that make sense?
and yes the game has a lot of drops when playing in the RayTracing mode.
After I played for a while I wondered how stable the framerate is (since it's hard to judge when using VRR) and opened the refresh counter on my TV that shows the exact current refresh rate of it.
and in almost every bigger outdoors environment the framerate constantly fluctuated. especially if there was lots of vegetation on screen, that's when you actually felt it even with VRR at times.
Last edited:
yamaci17
Member
find me a game that won't work with VRR that uses UWP and is not patched. im sure you should find one, after all, most devs wont care about the inclusion of VRRUWP didn't support VRR because UWP apps weren't allowed to use Exclusive Fullscreen at the time.
All UWP apps, including games, ran a state similar to borderless Windowed mode even when in fullscreen and since borderless windowed in Windows didn't support VRR and ran with forced VSync at all times.
Unlocked Frame Rate and More Now Enabled for UWP - DirectX Developer Blog
What an exciting few months it’s been for Windows 10 Gamers In the last few months, we’ve taken Windows 10 gaming to a new level by partnering with Microsoft Studios to deliver marquee titles such as: Gears of War: Ultimate Edition,
This update brought support for a new hybrid mode, the one that is now forced for all Windows games unless you toggle exclusive fullscreen in the compatibility settings.
Quantum Break's update added support for this mode.
01011001
Banned
Aragami 2... maybe it has been patched by now but at launch it had no VRR support. the game was a mess in general with uneven framepacing, which is why I felt the missing gsync instantly
I don't know, I don't even remember which games are UWP.
Even harder now that most MS Store games are Win32 apps in a container.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I don't know what to tell you, I also played the demo and retail on the same device without any issue on either.
The fact that you're seeing "a lot of fluctuations" is also weird. That sounds like a whole another issue.
1. VGTech demo video has 99.65% locked performance with only 100 out of 30000 frames dropping below that.
2. Digital foundry's video also shows only one place with drops to 57~58 with the demo being 60 FPS in RT mode, runs better than PS5 too.
--
Do you have a Series S ? If yes then you're probably seeing drops out of the VRR range, Village drops in the mid 30s and low 40s routinely on Series S.
Last edited:
yamaci17
Member
okay then, its a 8 gb game. i would like you to install it again and report if it has "vrr" working and patched, or not. i will be doing the same. so if you say vrr is not working, i cannot feel it, and i prove otherwise, then it would mean the game simply has bad performance issues overall that vrr cannot compensate for. if it indeed does not work, i will bow with respect, stand corrected and go away
i can, as the game is now installing, say that VRR will work %100.
What game are you talking about?
Loxus
Member
We are talking about VRR via HDMI 2.1.Whose the some credible people ? the youtube video with 3000 views you found ? Can you do better than that ?
Anyway, here you go:
--
numerous mentions of requiring compatible hardware, compatible GPU (hardware) and compatible displays (hardware), no mention of games needing updates to support it.
-
What Is AMD FreeSync? FreeSync and FreeSync 2 HDR Explained
What’s the meaning of a monitor or display with FreeSync or FreeSync 2 HDR? AMD’s adaptive sync explained.www.tomshardware.com
The only mention of software in the entire article is that you need the driver that came out when they launched freesync in the first place, no mentions of a game needing support or updates for it.
-
What Is FreeSync? Here's Everything You Need to Know | Digital Trends
AMD's FreeSync is frame-synchronizing technology designed to eliminate screen tearing in games without the performance overhead of V-Sync. Here's how to get it.
Another mention that you don't need any secondary software except the driver which added Freesync availability int he first place.
-
Do you want me to post more ? You can find articles like this with very quick and easy google searches.
Meanwhile you can't find any article where anyone talks about needing to update old games specifically so they support VRR.
Did you miss the part where it says 'now that windows 10 added it" ?
Hell, even BC OG Xbox and 360 games which support 60 FPS on the console benefit from VRR. Of course if a game is locked to 30 FPS, it won't do anything if it has frame rate drops cause rarely any VRR displays go below 40hz.
PS5 doesn't have freesync.
Does PS5 support VRR?
"PS5 hardware supports Variable Refresh Rate (VRR) through HDMI 2.1. After a future system software update, PS5 owners will be able to use the VRR feature of compatible TVs when playing games that support VRR."
And I like how you ignore the bold in that Sony statement.
Last edited:
Tygeezy
Member
This was because at the time it was using the windows store version of the game and not a standard windows executable.
The only game I played on pc that didn’t work with gsync was street fighter v and that’s because there was a flag in the profile for it. If you deleted the profile for the game it would use a generic profile and gsync would then work.
yamaci17
Member
aragami 2? go install it again, its just 8 gb. tell me if the VRR is "working" or not by your "eye" measurements. and then i shall scientifically report if it indeed works or not. of course you have to first, since you're the claimer. and if you're going to say "wow i installed it and vrr works, so they patched it", find me an another game where you think its unpatched and not working. or find me "patch notes" for the supposed "vrr" support for argami 2.
Zathalus
Member
If VRR was game support dependent, why do non-patched games from 2013/2014 on the Xbox work just fine with it? No patches needed?
Sony may choose to do it differently, but it would be a very odd (and worse) way of doing it
I think you are quoting the wrong guy. The issue I posted with UWP apps was from 2016, everything from then should be fine.
Aragami 2 came out last year, it's unlikely they are using build tools for UWP apps from 2016, if it's even a UWP app and not a Win32 app in a container.
The issue is finding a 2016 game that wasn't patched at the time, the one I remember from that time were Quantum Break, GoW UE and Forza 6 Apex. All of them were patched.
Last edited:
yamaci17
Member
yeah sorry i meant 00011111 , sry for confusion
ethomaz
Banned
Why mensure by “eye” if the TV shows if it working or not?
01011001
Banned
why are you showing only demo footage? that demo only had 1 outdoors area and even then, the game clearly dropped frames when too much vegetation is on screen.
also 100 dropped frames could absolutely mean 58fps for 50 full seconds... you know... very noticeable without VRR. or it can mean 55fps for 20 seconds, also VERY noticeable
also I had hard data on hand. my TV literally shows refresh in real time. I had several spots in the full version that dipped below 60 and fluctuated between 50 and 60 fps.
and due to the fact that my TV shows the refresh rate in real time I investigated during my time playing the demo.
when you stood in front of the field with the tall grass, on the way to that hosue that then burns down later, the framerate dropped to the mid to low 50s.
in the demo I noticed that the camera motion felt immediately stuttery in that spot... so I looked at the refresh counter and it was nailed to 60hz with zero adjustment.
I thought at first that maybe the camera motion was just uneven, something that is quite common in Unity Engine games so who knows I thought... but then it just got worse and it completely vanished in lighter scenes... so that's when I could confirm that VRR is simply not working.
fast forward to the full version of the game and everything is smooth and the refresh counter of my TV confirms that VRR is working now with said field being in the 50s basically at all times when in view.
some other spots that I saw heavy drops at was I think on the way to the Factory, that was one spot where I even felt it very noticeably even with VRR, as it was hovering at around 50fps the for extended periods.
there were also rare spots where it actually dipped below my TV's 48hz window, but it wasn't often enough for me to set the system to 120hz as that will introduce blur due to the frame-doubling the console does.
I can maybe record a video on my phone and the refresh counter on my TV later when I'm home, showing the missing VRR in 60hz mode for Watch_Dogs Legion, and then it working at 120hz.
if it wasn't patched of course, but given that it's Ubisoft, I doubt it was patched tbh.
Last edited:
yamaci17
Member
maybe his screen/tv does not show it. some screens are not showing it
actually nvidia has a gsync overlay to show its working or not. i know that some of my friends reported that it felt like it doesn't working, but i proved it to be working with MRR overlay (capframex software. only software that will show your refresh rate in 2022)
user says they "felt" it was not working, which to me, seems like the game simply performed bad and user expected gsync to fix a broken game, but nothing works that way. vrr is a crazy tech, but if fps drops from 60 to 40 in an erratical way, vrr will not save it
https://www.capframex.com/
vrr is not a thing you can "feel" in every game lmao. some games are too wonky that even vrr will feel bad. thats another story
you can see VRR and LFC is working here and screen is refreshing at 94 hz for 47 fps (94/2).
Last edited:
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Freesync *is* VRR. It's just AMD's name for the standard, like G-Sync is for NVidia.
The bolded part makes little to no sense when there's been no historical precedent of any game needing specific updates to allow VRR in the first place, and I'm not talking about games like DL2 or Flight Sim which add unlock frame rate options when VRR is detected.
Find me any reputable source where you have a confirmation that a game needed to get VRR added via a patch.
Reputable, not a youtube video with 3000 views.
I'll wait.
Cause you were talking about VRR being disengaged in the demo.
DF didn't make a point about it one way or the other in their demo coverage cause performance was solid enough anyway.
100 frames for a 60 frame per second game does not mean 50 seconds, I shouldn't have to need to do some very basic 2nd grade maths to tell you that.
Sure, if you want to record a video of it go ahead, but I can tell you with certainty that I did not have the issues you're having.
Last edited:
Chris_Rivera
Member
It’s all software.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
edit:
I think some here are confusing VRR and VRS.
VRR = hardware
VRS = can be both hardware and software based.
Ah no worries, for all it's worth I tried it and IT WORKS ON MY MACHINE™.
Which game are you using ? and did Gabe Newell come to your house to edit the game .ini to add VRR support ?
Last edited:
omegasc
Member
A game might need a patch if they were coded with software v-sync, for example. In this case, the game does not support variable refresh rates. VRR would still be enabled on the system level, though, but reporting fixed 60hz since that is what it is receiving. No tear, but stutters since the game code itself is sending 2 or more of the same frame while skipping some others.
When Sony says that games need to support it, they are most probably just covering their asses, just as they did with Backwards Compatibility. Some games needed patches. Most didn't.
When Sony says that games need to support it, they are most probably just covering their asses, just as they did with Backwards Compatibility. Some games needed patches. Most didn't.
Last edited:
01011001
Banned
I think you are not getting basic maths here.
if a game drops 100 frames, that could mean a lot of things. it can mean 1 frame every second for 100 seconds.
it can mean 2 frames every second for 50 seconds, or it can mean something like 5 frames every second for 20 seconds.
meaning 100 missed frames can mean 55fps for a full 20 seconds back to back. which is extremely noticeable and isn't made insignificant just because they also recorded 10000 frames in different spots where the game ran fine.
and I also bet they didn't just stand there in front of the spot where the game drops and simply recorded that for prolonged periods, when during normal gameplay a normal player might hang around spots like that for way longer than some guy recording a framerate analysis does.
also, did you play the RE8 demo in RayTracing mode on Series X? if so, did you also look at the refresh counter of your TV (if it has one)?
because like you also said, going by "feel" isn't really a viable argument, especially online with people you don't know... and knowing that there are people that don't feel framedrops whatsoever and call Elden Eing on PS5 "smooth" (saw that on twitter the other day)
I meanwhile know for a fact that on my TV VRR was not working in the demo for RE8, but it works flawlessly in the full version of the game. and I know that because I saw the stutters and then immediately looked if my TV adjust the refresh, and it didn't, while in the full version, in the same spot, it does without issue.
and it also can't be a case where it drops below 48hz, because when a game does that, maybe when it has really bad framepacing or stuttering issues, my TV will not simply display a flat 60hz. the Xbox will try to still dynamically adjust, meaning my TV will too, and the refresh counter will jump from 60hz to 48hz rapidly every time stutters happen.
Last edited:
Aragami 2. He didn't even gave me a Steam Deck, the bastard.
Last edited:
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Ok, except neither DF nor VGTech show the kind of hypothetical drops you're talking about.
The videos are right there.
My display does not have a counter, but VRR on/off level jitters can be felt very easily. I've done my share of testing before with it on or off on a system level to see if it notably works or not, I think we've all done that at one point or another.
Maybe you had VRR disabled either on console level or TV level before ?
Can you try it again now ? I think the demo is still up and they haven't discontinued it.
Great, so like whatever bug was causing the issue in Halo: Infinite's 120hz mode, that Aragami 2 issue has been addressed as well.
Good shit and thanks for the quick check !
Loxus
Member
Doesn't Xbox also support freesync?
The question at hand is if VRR via HDMI requires it to be implemented in games.
01011001
Banned
like I said, in the video they don't just walk around the exact same spot for prolonged periods, hence there only being 100 dropped frames.
meanwhile, I hung around that tall grass area for a while, looking for ammo and hidden stuff. and I felt those drops at all times while being around that area.
this is why citing "only X amount of dropped frames in Y amount of recorded frames" is useless. for these analysis videos they don't play the game normally. they walk through a given scenario as streamlined as possible in order to compare different versions.
and no, I never turned VRR off since I plugged that console into my TV. and I never turned it off on the TV's side ever since I first turned on that TV.
it simply didn't work in the RE8 demo.
I might look if the demo is still there later and record that.
what kind of TV do you have btw? because maybe it has a VRR counter just not one obviously labeled.
on my Samsung for example I have to press the OK button on the remote, which then brings up an info display of the current signal. which also happens to show refresh rate in real time
Last edited:
- Status