• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

Was there really a videogame crash in 1983 for North America?

So unlike Europe, computers didn't really take of in America during the early mid 80's? So it was akin to a market of 60 million potential consumers shrinked to 6 million?

This will answer my question.

Computers certainly did take off in America during that time!

Computers were rapidly becoming cheaper and more powerful. Commodore was advertising the VIC-20 using the tagline "A real computer for the price of a toy", like this commercial. The Commodore 64, which was introduced in early 1982 at $600, could be purchased by the end of 1983 for less than $200. Other companies like Texas Instruments were also promoting their computers as advanced alternatives to video game systems. Even Atari themselves were starting to push home computers more and more heavily.

Consumers saw these computers as being not only "more than just a toy", but also playing bigger and better video games than the "toys" themselves. People started asking themselves why they would pay $200 for an Intellivision or ColecoVision or Atari 5200, when "real computers" like the Commodore 64 offered much better graphics, much better sounds, and a larger selection and wider variety of games for about the same price? This was the true "next-generation game system" to me, and had the added bonus of functioning as a "real computer" as well.

In short, the video game systems at that time were largely one-trick ponies, and the similarly-priced home computers were outclassing them at their best trick.
 
Back before the crash, there was an arcade machine in every diner, pizza joint, laundromat, hell even our dentist office had a table-top pac-man machine in the waiting room. After the crash that all went away. The arcade in my town went out of business. You had to travel to the mall to find an arcade.
 
Everybody keeps saying that they did, but it doesn't sound like something they would do. I've never personally seen one, which means it probably doesn't exist. Whenever I do research on it, people say it was a 3-D system with only red-colored graphics. This doesn't make any sense, so I don't believe it happened.
 
Speaking as an American born in '84, I've known a few people who have working Atari 2600s, but I have never once seen a Commodore 64 or any of its contemporary personal computers in the flesh nor personally known anyone who has owned one.

The Apple II was the earliest computer I remember playing games on, and I don't recall ever seeing one outside of school.

I owned a commodore 64 and lived in san diego california at the time. There were rental stores and toys r us stocked games for it. To me thats mainstream.
 
Ahh the day of walking into a local Sears during the NFL playoffs,shopping for winter school clothes. The thing is the minute my parents took their eyes off me I always ran to the area in sears where they had an Atari 2600 hooked up. We kids would take turns playing the games,staring at the screens,playing the latest games they had in. AirSea Battle and Space Invaders were the shit! And even when our parents found us and dressed us with those school clothes,we could hear someone playing Asteroids from across the store floor. Those were fun times to be a kid in the late 70's. Its why I hold Atari with allot of love in my gaming heart still.
 
If you want a great book on the subject check out "The Ultimate History of Video Games" by Steven Kent. If you are interesting in how video games got to where they are today this book is a must read! I am looking forward to a revised version in the future.
 
Then you haven't been paying attention enough this gen. The vast majority of publishers and developers have been hemorrhaging money for years and are deeply in the red for the generation as a whole. If the next generation is a repeat of this one you'll see a significant number of players pulling out of the market.

I agree that ballooning budgets are a concern, but I don't think they're necessarily signs of an industry-destroying crash. I agree that when/if the AAA gravy train ceases to get publishers the results they want, there will be some serious shake-ups in how business is done. Here's where we part ways: You think this will be the end of all things, but I think this will be the return of the mid-range game, and the death knell for billion-dollar budgets. To adapt, games will have to get smaller and sleeker, but it's not like the industry hasn't weathered similar changes before. On PC, this will look like a nuclear war happening on the other side of the planet, since that ecosystem has so many features that are completely disconnected from what the big console players are doing.
 
Replace "Atari 2600" with "Smartphone games" and you have a clear vision of what will more or less happen in a couple of years. The paralelism is really damn good:
- Lots and lots of crap to dive through
- Value dropped to shit: good games have to undercut themselves to have a chance against the tsunami of use-and-throw-away 99c apps
- Fragmented market (iOS both in phone and tablet, dozens of configurations of Android, Windows Phone...)
- Games made in mom's basement with barely no quality control
- For every decent game, there are like 200 clones and pieces of shit unable to hold your attention for more than 5 minutes
True. The crash will happen first in the mobile market (also tablet).
 
Weren't there two crashes?

There was a 2nd mini crash in the mid 1990s that saw a lot of Japanese publishers close up their US branches. Off the top of my head it included Enix, Square, Taito, Takara, Bandai, Hudson, Telenet (sold off to Sega), Sammy, Toho, Technos, Seta, Data East and probably some others I'm forgetting. It wasn't universal as some smaller publishers like Koei, Atlus, Jaleco or Tecmo kept their operations going fine, plus the larger publishers like Capcom, Namco or Konami.
 
The market is generally a lot more savvy now then it was in the early days of home console gaming. I don't think $1 games will always win unless they can still deliver the right value to the right platform to the right consumer...one that is far more experienced in sifting through and determining a base level of games quality today. As well, the bins at big retailers are supplemented by online retailers and private sellers as a modern clearing house network to keep things in check without having to torpedo the entire industry based on an extreme excess of devalued, unwanted inventory. The App store and 99 cent game isn't in danger of crashing, just adjusting as it easily can since it doesn't have the same debilitating consequence of trying and failing to sell physical product. If Apple fails to hold sway over their contribution to the market, someone else will pick it up very seamlessly given the less cumbersome nature of DD and the depth of current competition. The fact that market is tied to an increasingly important tool of the average person, the cell phone/browser/camera/media player, means that it can withstand lulls and consumer indifference far more easily than dedicated gaming units which are something still wholly considered to be a pure luxury device and thus very easy to give up.
 
There was a 2nd mini crash in the mid 1990s that saw a lot of Japanese publishers close up their US branches. Off the top of my head it included Enix, Square, Taito, Takara, Bandai, Hudson, Telenet (sold off to Sega), Sammy, Toho, Technos, Seta, Data East and probably some others I'm forgetting. It wasn't universal as some smaller publishers like Koei, Atlus, Jaleco or Tecmo kept their operations going fine, plus the larger publishers like Capcom, Namco or Konami.

I'm not sure I'd consider this a crash so much as a big adjustment to the changeover from carts to CDs and the costs and expectations that come with that. Arcades and many formerly popular genres at arcades dying off in the mid-to-late 90s also had a lot to do with the those houses being rolled up into bigger players. Then, on top of all of that, the recession in Japan starting in the early 90s really pushed everyone together or off of a cliff.
 
I'm not sure I'd consider this a crash so much as a big adjustment to the changeover from carts to CDs and the costs and expectations that come with that. Arcades and many formerly popular genres at arcades dying off in the mid-to-late 90s also had a lot to do with the those houses being rolled up into bigger players. Then, on top of all of that, the recession in Japan starting in the early 90s really pushed everyone together or off of a cliff.



Interesting that you bring up arcades. After 1995 arcades pretty much went out. I wonder with all this new high tech digital tech we now have if consoles themselves will be obsoleted soon. The ios is taking a big chunk of the casual market and john carmack said within two years portable devices will be as powerful as ps3/xbox360.
 
I'm not sure I'd consider this a crash so much as a big adjustment to the changeover from carts to CDs and the costs and expectations that come with that. Arcades and many formerly popular genres at arcades dying off in the mid-to-late 90s also had a lot to do with the those houses being rolled up into bigger players. Then, on top of all of that, the recession in Japan starting in the early 90s really pushed everyone together or off of a cliff.
Yeah, it was really a confluence of factors and some of it definitely outside US borders. Still the easy US money a lot of Japanese publishers saw on NES seemed to dry up on Genesis/SNES and the coming Saturn/PlayStation/N64 war was leading to lot of uncertainty in the future. Some companies also limited their offerings here, Atlus and Tecmo backed entirely out of their Saturn support, SNK limited US publishing only to NeoGeo, and so on.
 
However when I look into. They say that consoles and arcades died because computers killed them.

No, "they" don't say that.

This is basically like a "Was There Really A WWII?" thread where you point out that the Germans are our allies so why would we have been at war with them?!

The 2012 crash which it has been building up for all gen will be more noticable.

I think people really don't understand what the 1983 crash entailed to believe this is an even remote possibility. Even though the fundamentals of many businesses operating in this industry are rotten, there are far too many companies that are making money for the gaming industry as a whole to collapse -- and electronic gaming is far too prevalent to see any sudden loss of consumer demand like what preceded the 1983 crash.
 
Didn't Nintendo also want to bring out a computer instead of the Famicom/NES because of uncertainty about the viability of a gaming console?

advanced_1.jpg

Holy crap, that's gorgeous.
 
No the gaming industry won't collapse again, because the customers aren't going to run away from it. Just because you have a lean period where losers lose and get back to something they are good at doesn't mean you'll have a crash.

The problem in 1983 was there was too much crap, everyone knew it and there wasn't any means to fix the adverse selection of game buying. You really had to go with the most interesting box.

Contrast that with the social experience being pushed into it, metacritic, publisher standards, crowd reviewing etc. and even the most clueless person can find out what's worthwhile and what isn't. Eroding consumer confidence is much harder.
 
Everybody keeps saying that they did, but it doesn't sound like something they would do. I've never personally seen one, which means it probably doesn't exist. Whenever I do research on it, people say it was a 3-D system with only red-colored graphics. This doesn't make any sense, so I don't believe it happened.

<3 Kobun.
 
I vividly remember digging through bin after bin of 2600 games with my Dad, all of them priced at $.50.

You guys have seen the junk bins at Best Buy, obviously? Now imagine 20 or thirty bins all lined up in a Toys R Us, and all the games, current ones and old crap all thrown in together.
So its like holiday Digital Distribution sales?
 
I think people really don't understand what the 1983 crash entailed to believe this is an even remote possibility. Even though the fundamentals of many businesses operating in this industry are rotten, there are far too many companies that are making money for the gaming industry as a whole to collapse -- and electronic gaming is far too prevalent to see any sudden loss of consumer demand like what preceded the 1983 crash.
I don't know. Seems like certain popular parts of the game industry right now are just fads (social gaming, iPhone apps, online military shooters) and it's not going to take much for that stuff to sour. On top of that, the "enthusiast" part of gaming has been collected into only a handful of major corporations - if only one or two of them go under, it could be disastrous for the industry. Throw in the potential for digital distribution going south, or the whole "games as services" thing (if Steam were to go under, how would we adapt? How many games do we claim as our own that we don't actually control the rights of?)

I really feel like a crash is coming. Not next year or the year after that, but if things continue along this trajectory for the next decade, yeah, I could see the industry crashing. Maybe not like the '83 crash. More like the Comic Book Crash of '93. It won't die completely, but it won't be pretty for a while. Only the small, furry animals will have the ability to adapt and thrive, while the giant dinosaurs go extinct.
 
Replace "Atari 2600" with "Smartphone games" and you have a clear vision of what will more or less happen in a couple of years. The paralelism is really damn good:
- Lots and lots of crap to dive through
- Value dropped to shit: good games have to undercut themselves to have a chance against the tsunami of use-and-throw-away 99c apps
- Fragmented market (iOS both in phone and tablet, dozens of configurations of Android, Windows Phone...)
- Games made in mom's basement with barely no quality control
- For every decent game, there are like 200 clones and pieces of shit unable to hold your attention for more than 5 minutes

Wouldn't that just wreck phone gaming though?
 
I owned a commodore 64 and lived in san diego california at the time. There were rental stores and toys r us stocked games for it. To me thats mainstream.

I live in PA, and bought my C64 at Toys R Us. I also purchased plenty of games there, as well as Software Etc and Electronics Boutique. C64 was a pretty popular computer.
 
So since the crash never happened in Japan and Europe, were games seen as less "kid stuff" in those regions?

Also I never realized how high-end the NES was when it was released in Japan.

In comparison here's SEGA's SG-1000 released the exact same time as the NES.

Game 1
Game 2
Game 3

A reminder of some games on the NES.



No, "they" don't say that.

This is basically like a "Was There Really A WWII?" thread where you point out that the Germans are our allies so why would we have been at war with them?!

Apparently "they" sorta do. Seems that computers were just a part of it. So far every documentary linked to me states that many console buyers moved to computers. Though I've been informed here that while true that was only a marginal amount of people that didn't cover the while.

I live in PA, and bought my C64 at Toys R Us. I also purchased plenty of games there, as well as Software Etc and Electronics Boutique. C64 was a pretty popular computer.

It was the best selling computer ever made.
 
The reason the NES was so much more powerful was the philosophy behind the two systems. Sega designed the SG-1000 to be one step up from Atari 2600, which was the leading game system of the day, so they ended up with a system about as powerful as a Colecovision. Nintendo, on the other hand, designed a system that could play Donkey Kong - that was their number one goal behind the NES, play an arcade-exact version of Donkey Kong. Luckily, Sega learned from their mistake, and in the future they started making home consoles based on the hardware they were using in their arcade machines, starting with the Sega Mark III (aka the Master System).
 
More like the Comic Book Crash of '93. It won't die completely, but it won't be pretty for a while. Only the small, furry animals will have the ability to adapt and thrive, while the giant dinosaurs go extinct.

Funny you should mention that since the current events in the console arena do look similar to the comic book industry in the 1990s. Of course, in actuality, the only big-name company actually affected to the point of nearly going extinct by the comic book crash was Marvel. DC was already part of the Warner hierarchy and Image and Dark Horse were both nimble enough to avoid the crash for the most part. It actually ended up harming most of the other smaller publishers more. Marvel meanwhile recovered by going into the film business.

So yeah, it's not gonna be guys like Activision going belly-up, but more like people like Platinum Games, which is a bad thing.
 
In North America, computers did not take off in popularity until Windows 95 came on the scene. So yes, the North American video game crash of 1983 was devastating to North America because there was no alternatives. That's also why the crash was limited to North America. Europe was already on the computer bandwagon, and Japan had just released the Famicom.

This isn't entirely true, or your definition of computers is very different than mine. The Apple II, C64, and Atari 800 were very popular in my (admittedly firmly middle class) American childhood. Very few of my friends didn't have some form of computer. Even narrowing it to PCs an entire golden age (if not THE golden age) of computer gaming had come and gone by the time Windows 95 was released.

I barely noticed the crash myself. I had already started playing games on my C64, games that even today stand as among the best ever designed. PC gaming at the time wasn't hurting either, again with the beginnings of many of gaming's most cherished franchises coming out in the mid-80s. Also, while never achieving the level of success it did in Europe, the mid-80s also saw the release of the Amiga which also delivered remarkable computer gaming quality.

However, gauging popularity is a difficult thing and I may be coming from a biased background. But I've always thought of the height of computer gaming being from 1984-1996 or 7, then consoles really taking over.
 
I keep hearing about the infamous game crash. You know the one where the videogame "fad" died. The one with E.T. cartridges being buried in a dumping ground in New Mexico. Etc.

However when I look into. They say that consoles and arcades died because computers killed them. To me that makes no sense to me. How's that a gaming crash if games went from consoles and arcades to computers? That isn't a crash but a transition. Games were still technically available, but on computers. I mean if consoles and handhelds died out but Steam and iOS started getting more popular because those franchises started focusing on those services nobody would call that a crash.

Or am I missing something here?

What really happened is that there was too many games and similar games. The market became saturated and sales died. Most companies were about to leave this industry as a fad but then Nintendo arrived with the NES...

Computers don't have anything to do with all of this, I dunno where you read that but it's wrong. Also, there was only one arcade crash and it's around the end of the 90s. The reason was that the home experience for most games was actually getting better than their arcade counterparts therefore people started to stay at home and started to despise putting the quarters in the slot. Home gaming simply was becoming a better value all around.
 
Yes, there was a crash in the console market because the quality of the games deteriorated and there was no single good replacement for the Atari 2600. There were lots of expensive follow-on consoles but there was no clear leader and they all had few games because the market was so fragmented. People also moved to PCs (Apples, Ataris, TRS-80s, etc.) because you could play games on them and do other stuff.

It took a while for the console market to recover with the NES.
 
Computers certainly did take off in America during that time!

Computers were rapidly becoming cheaper and more powerful. Commodore was advertising the VIC-20 using the tagline "A real computer for the price of a toy", like this commercial. The Commodore 64, which was introduced in early 1982 at $600, could be purchased by the end of 1983 for less than $200. Other companies like Texas Instruments were also promoting their computers as advanced alternatives to video game systems. Even Atari themselves were starting to push home computers more and more heavily.

Consumers saw these computers as being not only "more than just a toy", but also playing bigger and better video games than the "toys" themselves. People started asking themselves why they would pay $200 for an Intellivision or ColecoVision or Atari 5200, when "real computers" like the Commodore 64 offered much better graphics, much better sounds, and a larger selection and wider variety of games for about the same price? This was the true "next-generation game system" to me, and had the added bonus of functioning as a "real computer" as well.

In short, the video game systems at that time were largely one-trick ponies, and the similarly-priced home computers were outclassing them at their best trick.


You're bang on.

Replace 200 with 500 and it begins to sound a whole lot like this gen.
 
The Apple II, C64, and Atari 800 were very popular in my (admittedly firmly middle class) American childhood. Very few of my friends didn't have some form of computer.

Anecdotal musings follow:

It must be a regional thing. Around here 95% of people did not have a home PC at that time and if they did it was an Apple II of some sort. Since these almost always had a monochrome green monitor they pretty much sucked for playing games. I knew of ONE person with an Atari XEGS (which kinda sucked) but he was probably the most spoiled kid in school. Nobody had a Commodore but I had at least heard about them and seen them in Sears, etc. So basically when the Atari console business died, home gaming died with it. It wasn't until the NES that it became popular again. And PC gaming didn't really take off around here until the 286/386 and Win3.1 era.
 
I don't know. Seems like certain popular parts of the game industry right now are just fads (social gaming, iPhone apps, online military shooters)

None of these things is a "fad." Social gaming and app-store microgames are just extensions of a casual, interpersonal model of gaming that predates electronic gaming entirely and which has manifested in numerous ways throughout video gaming's history (remember when people thought Bejeweled was going to destroy gaming? Or when Tetris was the country's greatest timewaster? Same deal.)

Military shooters are just a specific realization of the other end of the gaming spectrum, another gaming tradition that stretches back to long before electronic gaming: competitive contests for teenagers to pwn one another in.

The specific models that are bringing in the money in any of these categories might grow brittle or decline, but the markets they're serving are large, fundamental markets. If shooters stop fitting that bill then some other type of game will fill it. When people get bored of apps they'll move on to Brainworms or whatever other new technological delivery mechanism we invent in the future. But none of these categories are really something that's at risk of seeing a complete loss of demand.

This isn't entirely true, or your definition of computers is very different than mine. The Apple II, C64, and Atari 800 were very popular in my (admittedly firmly middle class) American childhood.

Your upbringing here is pretty unusual. The number of personal computers per capita in the United States increased about eightfold between 1982 (when the C64 released) and 1995 (when Windows 95 came out), and the rate of adoption was much faster post-1995 than it was pre-1995.
 
None of these things is a "fad." Social gaming and app-store microgames are just extensions of a casual, interpersonal model of gaming that predates electronic gaming entirely and which has manifested in numerous ways throughout video gaming's history (remember when people thought Bejeweled was going to destroy gaming? Or when Tetris was the country's greatest timewaster? Same deal.)
Casual gaming is most certainly a fad, be it social farming or shooting angry birds. It's not that simple, cheap games are a fad. It's that there is now a really huge casual audience - but there's very little keeping them there. These people aren't following the gaming scene, looking for the next big hit to take their breath away. They are sitting there, letting the big hits come to them.

The end result is that ANYTHING could be the next big thing. It doesn't have to be a game. It could be another beanie babies like epidemic, or it could be a new big tv show. In order for this casual audience to maintain its size and force, it is entirely reliant on big name casual fad games like Wii Sports and Angry Birds to keep it going - a constant, unbroken stream of them. A dent in fad releases will completely destroy the casual market, as we currently know it. Obliterate it from orbit.

It's been a pretty constant stream due in parts to Wii Sports and the rise of Facebook and the iPhone, which all sort of appeared in the same time frame - but how long until those novelties wear off? Casuals bought Wiis for Wii Sports, and then proceeded to buy exactly zero other games for the system. Casuals aren't being turned into gamers. They are gamers for one or two games that they only know about because all their friends are talking about it. When we need them the most, they won't be there.

Military shooters are just a specific realization of the other end of the gaming spectrum, another gaming tradition that stretches back to long before electronic gaming: competitive contests for teenagers to pwn one another in.
I don't think the genre will go away completely, but it currently enjoys an overwhelming popularity that is unsustainable in the long term. I see it sort of like how MMORPGs were in the early 2000s.

And there's the simple fact that I don't think people will continue to find spending five hours every night playing a competitive first person shooter that enjoyable years down the line. The way these things are going, they require a larger investment of time and attention - things that people can't give as they get older, have jobs and families. They'll move on, and I don't think they'll be replaced by new teenagers because, if music has taught us anything, teenagers think their parents' entertainment is crap.

Again, the question becomes whether or not those teenagers will find a game to replace their parents' entertainment or will they find something else. I'm an optimist and will say that a lot of them will find some sort of gaming - but I think it is going to look very different from MMOs or FPSs that we have now, and it might be difficult to find an appropriate revenue stream early on. The industry is putting too many eggs in one basket, and the next transition phase may hurt a lot harder than the previous ones, like extreme sports, music, or platformers.

The specific models that are bringing in the money in any of these categories might grow brittle or decline, but the markets they're serving are large, fundamental markets. If shooters stop fitting that bill then some other type of game will fill it. When people get bored of apps they'll move on to Brainworms or whatever other new technological delivery mechanism we invent in the future. But none of these categories are really something that's at risk of seeing a complete loss of demand.
My point is, these categories will die - perhaps spectacularly - and if they are replaced at all (which I remain doubtful of), it will take time before these new categories yield the same sort of profit. If these changes happen at the same time, and I think they might, the end result is going to be a huge pile of hurt on the game industry until it can adjust to a new model - something it will be extremely slow to do as all the smaller companies are bought up into large corporations who are absolutely not agile enough to adapt to volatile market.

I really feel like the industry is shooting itself in the foot with digital content. If it continues on the current path of screwing consumers, all while building a larger and larger part of its foundation from it, all it is going to take is one big mistake or one big "fuck you, consumer" (I'm eying Origin, but I think a big mistake on Steam's part would destroy digital gaming).
 
Didn't Nintendo also want to bring out a computer instead of the Famicom/NES because of uncertainty about the viability of a gaming console?

It was kind of the opposite I believe. Post-crash there were a lot of computer/gaming system hybrids that were marketed as computers that were the cost of a gaming console that also happened to play games. The problem was that they weren't particularly good at being computers and the market was over saturated with these kind of systems. After the various later interations of Atari computer/consoles, the Collecovisions, the Intellivisions and the like failed to rekindle home gaming and outright went out of business in some cases, I don't think Nintendo wanted to go that route.

There was also an issue with what someone called the Madona-Whore complex. The public perception of computers in the US was vastly different in the 80s than how they are viewed today. Back then computers weren't looked at as all in one entertainment devices. They were associated with work machines, things people stared at for eight hours at the office and not something you associated with entertainment.

That's why Nintendo was careful to name the NES the Nintendo Entertainment System. On the one hand they didn't want to call it a video game system due to the still lingering public perception of home consoles post crash and on the other hand they didn't want to call it the FamiCom (Family Computer) in the US because of the failures of the previous computer/game system hybrids in the US. That's probably also why they also went with the toaster design in the end for the US.

Here's something people might also not know. At one point Nintendo offered Atari exclusive distribution rights to the NES in the US, but they turned them down. That's how bad the state of the home console industry was at the time.
 
Here's something people might also not know. At one point Nintendo offered Atari exclusive distribution rights to the NES in the US, but they turned them down. That's how bad the state of the home console industry was at the time.
I don't see how that shows the bad state of the home console industry at the time, Atari wanted to market their 7800 game system, not a competitor's device.

BTW, here's how Atari hoped to beat the crash - "We reinvented the video game!" They even mention how some of the 7800's games are based off of computer games.
Atari 7800 commercial
 
It's that there is now a really huge casual audience - but there's very little keeping them there.

There has always been a huge casual audience, at least since computer technology finished integrating itself into people's lives. The only difference today is that delivery and monetization have improved immensely; it's easier for people who play games casually to work them into their lifestyles and it's easier for companies that make these games to extract money for them.

The idea that there's this fragile market that's only been preserved by carefully-timed hits is nonsense. There is no time in the last decade where there haven't been major casual game success stories. The hits aren't what's keeping people around; games are becoming hits because there are people who want to buy them.

The Beanie Baby comparison is just goofy. Collectibles are not a substitutionary good for entertainment products. It would be reasonable to suggest that other activities that fit the lifestyle profile of casual games (i.e. intermittent, short-burst, low-commitment but high-long-term-reward) might be a good substitutionary effect -- except that stuff like social networking is getting bigger at the same time.

I don't think the genre will go away completely, but it currently enjoys an overwhelming popularity that is unsustainable in the long term. I see it sort of like how MMORPGs were in the early 2000s.

Err... what? MMOs were an ultra-niche genre in the "early 2000s," kicking along with 300k subscriber numbers. Furthermore, if you actually just mean "WoW was a fad," the MMO market was still vastly expanded by its success -- there are far more people playing far more distinct MMOs today than there were in 2001, and it's a market that continues to see a good deal of development.

They'll move on, and I don't think they'll be replaced by new teenagers because, if music has taught us anything, teenagers think their parents' entertainment is crap.

I... are you serious?

The teenage market has been a consistent moneymaker for home videogames for going on 20 years. The exact genres certainly do shift, but they don't just disappear, they shift over time the same way trends do in all media.

Like, your position here is basically like saying "I'm pretty sure the next batch of teenagers won't listen to music, because music is what all the teens are into today." That's crazy-go-nuts.

Again, the question becomes whether or not those teenagers will find a game to replace their parents' entertainment

Of course they will. That's how all media work. The teenagers of today don't watch movies and listen to music because someone happened to make the right stuff to get them interested; teenagers have a huge appetite for music and movies and the hits are the things that meet those needs the best.

I mean, I thought the first time I responded to you that you were just kind of asserting a likelihood of failure for some areas of gaming you personally dislike without thinking through the full implications, but your position in this post is so left-field I'm kind of at a loss.
 
Wouldn't that just wreck phone gaming though?

Most likely, but in the proccess, it will hurt DD platforms like XBLA/PNS/eShop/WiiWare a lot. Well, it's already doing it: games that have a great value on those platforms at 5-15 bucks are later found on smartphones at 1-3 bucks (because they will go completely unnoticed if higher), devaluating the perceived value of those platforms and hurting their future revenues ("why get it on my console DD platform if it's going to be in smartphones at 1/5 of the price in 6 months"). It's especially damaging for Nintendo platforms due to the lower specs that make smartphone porting easier, and probably one of the reasons we still have to see something beyond 6&#8364; in the 3DS eShop, they're really afraid to go higher even for games that are actually worth it and would have easily been priced 10&#8364;+ if released on WiiWare/PSN/XBLA at the beginning of the generation.
 
There has always been a huge casual audience, at least since computer technology finished integrating itself into people's lives. The only difference today is that delivery and monetization have improved immensely; it's easier for people who play games casually to work them into their lifestyles and it's easier for companies that make these games to extract money for them.
The casual market latches on to a few very popular games and largely ignores everything else. You can't predict it outside of the current fad, thus you can not predictably make money off it outside the current fad. I don't think you can build a sustainable industry off the back of something so unpredictable.

The idea that there's this fragile market that's only been preserved by carefully-timed hits is nonsense. There is no time in the last decade where there haven't been major casual game success stories. The hits aren't what's keeping people around; games are becoming hits because there are people who want to buy them.
The word I would use is "momentum". I don't think casual gamers are becoming gamers. I think that the momentum generated by these fads is artificially increasing the presence and power of the casual segment, which I believe have the numbers but are unpredictable and stingy.

I think there are a bunch of companies that are being formed or that are changing course to take a piece of this casual pie, but they are misguided in what this casual audience actually is, and most of them will crash and burn. I don't think casual gamers are a fad. I think this current casual gaming movement is a fad. I think it is creating the appearance of a rich, untapped audience where one doesn't exist.

Again, it comes down to the industry putting too many of its eggs in one basket. Rather than diversifying, you've got everybody trying to make Facebook games. If that market should happen to falter, regardless of whether we agree on why, the results could be bad. If it happens at the same time as another fad ending, the industry could be teetering on the edge of a crash.

Err... what? MMOs were an ultra-niche genre in the "early 2000s," kicking along with 300k subscriber numbers.
At the time, that represented a HUGE number given how few people had internet, much less high speed internet. Plus the appearance of huge profits due to the subscription model caused everybody in the entire industry to start making MMOs, despite being stupidly expensive and resource intensive. It is not surprising that almost all of them failed to make it to market, or died out shortly thereafter. It's not that the MMO bubble had burst, but rather that the creators of MMOs misunderstood the audience. They saw a gold rush where none was to be had.

The teenage market has been a consistent moneymaker for home videogames for going on 20 years. The exact genres certainly do shift, but they don't just disappear, they shift over time the same way trends do in all media.
I thought this thread was about the video game crash in 1983. Twenty years ago, teenagers DID abandon video games for other forms of entertainment. When the NES was first showed off, the kids all wrote it off as a kiddy game machine like the Atari. It seems unfathomable, but for a few years there, video games weren't cool.

The argument, I guess, is that video games are like movies and music - a fundamental part of entertainment. I think video games are probably closer to comic books. They can be replaced. And I think that if the industry continues along this current path, it will become easier and easier for this to happen.

Like, your position here is basically like saying "I'm pretty sure the next batch of teenagers won't listen to music, because music is what all the teens are into today." That's crazy-go-nuts.
That's not what I said. I said that there is no guarantee that the next batch of teenagers will approach video games in the same way, or with the same fervor. It's possible, if unlikely, that the next generation may have something else to become fascinated with. I grew up with computers, but my parents didn't. I didn't grow up with the internet, but my kids will. Who knows what societal changes may appear that could fundamentally change how they look at entertainment. For all we know, due to the bad economy, the $60 video game could be seen as a luxury, and there are other, cheaper forms of entertainment that can be just as enticing.

Assuming that video games are an untouchable part of entertainment is a bit misguided. Too big to fail? The industry has a centralized power structure of a few large corporations, is facing a fundamental change in distribution and monetization (of which it seems to be erring on the side of stupidity), and is losing face daily due to security threats, oppressive DRM policies, and nickel and diming through DLC color swaps. I don't think the industry is big enough that it can make the sheer volume of mistakes it seems poised to.
 
At the time, that represented a HUGE number given how few people had internet, much less high speed internet. Plus the appearance of huge profits due to the subscription model caused everybody in the entire industry to start making MMOs, despite being stupidly expensive and resource intensive. It is not surprising that almost all of them failed to make it to market, or died out shortly thereafter. It's not that the MMO bubble had burst, but rather that the creators of MMOs misunderstood the audience. They saw a gold rush where none was to be had.

I mostly disagree with you, but I do think that something like this should scare the crap out of people making iphone games and similar. Everybody's adding developers as fast as they can, and I don't know if there's sufficient demand out there to avoid a big contraction, although I don't think that total sales will drop anytime soon. An additional complication is that I'd bet that mobile games have pretty fat tails; new games aren't just competing with new games but also with old games, so the number of titles you're competing with grows very quickly. Console/handheld publishers have had huge problems coexisting with Nintendo's evergreen titles, and I'd imagine that successful games on the iPhone are going to end up with sales that follow the same trajectory as Mario Kart or similar.
 
The casual market latches on to a few very popular games and largely ignores everything else.

Except that the casual, social, and mobile gaming industries are huge and an enormous portion of their revenue is from things besides the top earners. For example, mobile gaming was a $1.5b business this year -- Angry Birds' approximately $100m for the year is only 7% of that. (Or even in the social gaming space, which is more lopsided, Zynga's marketshare floats around 40% -- over half the money in the industry is made by other people.)

The word I would use is "momentum". I don't think casual gamers are becoming gamers.

Of course they're not. They're casual gamers. They were casual gamers 10 years ago when they were playing Bejeweled, they're still casual gamers now.

Again, it comes down to the industry putting too many of its eggs in one basket. Rather than diversifying, you've got everybody trying to make Facebook games.

Who, exactly, is "not diversifying" here? All the major publishers pretty explicitly have eggs in multiple baskets, including PCs, high-end consoles, mobile gaming, social web gaming, etc.

I mean, yes, there are certainly plenty of garbage social games companies here in the Bay Area, many of which will go bust due to bad management/content/business models, but that's a normal facet of any boom market. That doesn't reflect a greater exposure to a collapse in social gaming amongst the gaming industry proper.

At the time, that represented a HUGE number given how few people had internet,

It still has nothing whatsoever in common with the shooter market of today. You're comparing an ultra-dedicated niche market composed entirely of time-rich early-adopters with significant disposable income to a mass-market product sold to low-investment customers.

It is not surprising that almost all of them failed to make it to market, or died out shortly thereafter.

Except that, like... MMOs are still a huge market now and one that's diversified immensely from the WoW-monoculture peak. There wasn't a crash in this market at all; there were a lot of business failures that nonetheless didn't destroy the market but rather led naturally to better, more profitable business models.

Twenty years ago, teenagers DID abandon video games for other forms of entertainment.

There wasn't really a teen-oriented market yet in the 1983 crash. The Atari 2600 was exactly as family-oriented as the NES, there wasn't any downward shift in demographics there.

We're also talking about what was basically a market hiccup in a brand-new industry, in one territory, where that industry was still effectively defined by one company's products. At a time when people were testing out the idea of game consoles for the first time -- when no one had yet grown up with them or seen them be a constant through many stages in their lives -- something spooked people and the bottom fell out of the market for two years. The industry has spent the intervening thirty years integrating itself far more into the fabric of people's lives, diversifying its offerings, and otherwise moving beyond the limited circumstances that led to that early crash.

That's not what I said. I said that there is no guarantee that the next batch of teenagers will approach video games in the same way, or with the same fervor.

Right, and that's idiotic. You might as well say "maybe everyone will stop using computers and go back to working on paper!," it would be exactly as plausible.

The industry has a centralized power structure of a few large corporations

...except for the part where video gaming as a whole has actually diversified quite extensively and different fields like console gaming, mobile gaming, social gaming, MMOs, PC gaming, etc. tend to be led by different companies, such that a collapse in one area won't wipe out the others.

is facing a fundamental change in distribution and monetization (of which it seems to be erring on the side of stupidity)

...except for the part where all the fields that have embraced digital distribution and new forms of monetization are growing rapidly.
 
I mostly disagree with you, but I do think that something like this should scare the crap out of people making iphone games and similar. Everybody's adding developers as fast as they can, and I don't know if there's sufficient demand out there to avoid a big contraction, although I don't think that total sales will drop anytime soon.

There are certainly big issues with contraction on both mobile and social games. The crunch is already starting to hit social games: RockYou laid off 40% of its workforce this year and others will follow, because up until now social games have mostly been developed by incredibly inefficient companies that can't effectively weather even minor shifts in performance. With mobile gaming too, at some point the gold-rush period will end and a lot of the people currently in the market will shake out (although this probably won't happen until the growth of the actual smartphone market saturates, which could still be a good few years from now.) But I don't expect either to reach the level of a crash (i.e. a complete devaluing collapse that effectively erases the market in the short-term) and neither would really expose any other part of the gaming industry to much collateral damage.
 
If it were to happen today it would mean that companies like EA and Activision would both have to crash and burn. Because the bottom dropped out of the 360/PS3 software market or something. The gaming industry is worth billions these days and simply can't 'crash' like it did in 1983.
 
Top Bottom