in games like COD on console where aiming is less of an issue, the main goal is to outmaneuver and outflank the other team and get to a spot where you can kill them easily. does this not count as movement and tactics?
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WASD! Huh! What is it good for?
- Thread starter Barkley's Justice
- Start date
in games like COD on console where aiming is less of an issue, the main goal is to outmaneuver and outflank the other team and get to a spot where you can kill them easily. does this not count as movement and tactics?
Professional Quake 3 is more of a movement game than a shooting game in the first place.
Along with memorization of the power-up spawn timings.
People who say it's all about the mouse have the right idea. WASD are really only used for major inertial shifts, while mouselook handles minute movement changes. The degree to which my mind intelligently and automatically chooses which input to use to create the movement I want blows my mind. What you get in the end, though, is a very fluid experience with movement across all dimensions.
This can also happen with a controller, but instead both controls methods have equal finesse, with no super-precise or super-simple option.
I think most of the arguments over position (ESDF) have a lot more to do with access to hotkeys rather than movement ability.
What I do wish that I could have with WASD is control over the magnitude of movement. However, this is mostly for immersion reasons in games like Dishonored.
*edit* This is all assuming first-person, which is my favorite perspective. The point makes much less sense even in third person.
This can also happen with a controller, but instead both controls methods have equal finesse, with no super-precise or super-simple option.
I think most of the arguments over position (ESDF) have a lot more to do with access to hotkeys rather than movement ability.
What I do wish that I could have with WASD is control over the magnitude of movement. However, this is mostly for immersion reasons in games like Dishonored.
*edit* This is all assuming first-person, which is my favorite perspective. The point makes much less sense even in third person.
What new FPS games have came out in the last 10 years that have had a skill based movement system?
Quake was based off of your skill in multiple areas. Movement, aim, positioning, tactics (item timing, baiting enemies on sound from pickups, choking off areas of the map, denying the opponent weapons off spawn). To say quake is based purely off your skill in aim is insanely ignorant.
It does but what people are trying to say is that quake embodies this too and at a much faster pace with more areas to improve on as a player.
Felix Lighter
Member
I'm not sure why you don't think that is possible. The biggest limitation is the keys you have access to. Using your left hand on the arrow keys is easy. Your hands don't need to be a foot and a half apart to play comfortably.
CosmicQueso
Member
Jesus Christ.
COD's basic gameplay hasn''t changed since COD 1. Really dude?
And to imply that games like Quake, RTCW, Unreal and even ET:Wolf are built less on movement tactics than the current batch of shooters is absolutely ludicrous.
Play whatever you want however you want, but you may be insane.
I think you just proved my point for me. That's exactly why I said I don't see how arrow keys are possible for modern FPS. There's too many other buttons, the arrow keys are far too isolated on the keyboard.
The whole reason PC FPS controls shifted from Arrow Keys to WASD by default in the late 90's is because of the necessity of more complex commands that require mapping to additional keys that are too far out of reach for the arrows.
Metalmurphy
Member
It's good cause it gives you all the extra keys next to it that you can bind for all sorts of stuff.
when did i say that? I said in the newer fps games movement and tactics are more important than aiming.
leave it to PC gamers to get all defensive and refuse to understand any reasoning contrary to their own.
SillyEskimo
Member
Thumb stick 4 life!
NinjaBoiX
Member
I hate that too, the whole set up is horrible. It's a make do and mend solution to make use of an existing, entirely unsuitable interface. I'll stick with the ergonomically designed, wireless, rumble enabled, custom built joypad.
I've played so many thousands of hours of multiplayer SC2 that my fingers naturally rest at 1, 4, and 5.
1, 4, and 5 are the warm-up spam that I use at the beginning of a multiplayer game (1 = SCV, 4 = Command Center, 5 = Barracks).
After several hours of LoL or DOTA 2 my fingers always naturally come to rest at Q, W, and E for a while.
People are lazy and just don't want to learn new muscle memory.
Felix Lighter
Member
I, personally, made the switch years ago but I think you can get away with it in most games as long as you have a good number of mouse buttons.
Thanks for bringing to my attention that I do this too.
Going to be many, many people in that situation, myself included.
A few people I know rebind WASD to the right a bit, so either ESDF or RDFG or similar, purely to centre their hand on the keyboard and have easier access to more keys.
I am just lazy and can't be bothered with it.
Movement and tactics are just as important as they've always been, it's not any more important in FPS games today, but with games like quake, RCTW, ET:W the game was at a much faster pace so the reaction time needed was that much higher and this ties into the skill in movement too. If you look back at those games at a competitive level the dominant players aren't all aim whores.
You might not believe it, but good quality keyboards and mice are also ergonomically designed, can be wireless (even though I personnally prefer all my input devices being wired, and that includes my xbox360 controller) and custom built. The only thing on your list that makes a valid point is the lack of rumble feature on a keyboard/mouse combo.
Teknopathetic
Member
"leave it to PC gamers to get all defensive and refuse to understand any reasoning contrary to their own."
More like: "Leave it to PC gamers to call me out when I say something ridiculously silly."
More like: "Leave it to PC gamers to call me out when I say something ridiculously silly."
If the hypothetical Nunchuk + Mouse setup became standard then FPS games would change. I think people need to understand that. Your idea of best movement is based on limited movement. You can't Jackie Chan your way through a Quake map. That may change with a new standard control interface and that would open up new avenues of skill.
But it's not really the original discussion to focus on FPS. The thread is originally about WASD and games in general, and I don't think anyone can argue that its ideal. I certainly have had some interface frustrations with Hotline Miami. (Though I love the game.)
But it's not really the original discussion to focus on FPS. The thread is originally about WASD and games in general, and I don't think anyone can argue that its ideal. I certainly have had some interface frustrations with Hotline Miami. (Though I love the game.)
out0v0rder
Member
people are saying wasd isn't really needed in fps anymore because the games aren't precise enough to matter.
that makes me sad cuz it's true. thanks alot halo.
that makes me sad cuz it's true. thanks alot halo.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
I honestly do not understand how people have trouble with wasd. I played with the arrow keys way back in the day, and one day realized how god damn stupid it was. WASD is great. You have a bunch of buttons around it to push when you need to in a pinch, and it gives solid movement in FPSs and MMOs.
I do hate using ctrl to crouch, though. I have to kinda stretch my pinky to get it, and often times have to hit it with the nail side of my pinky to reach it at all.
I do hate using ctrl to crouch, though. I have to kinda stretch my pinky to get it, and often times have to hit it with the nail side of my pinky to reach it at all.
Teknopathetic
Member
"If the hypothetical Nunchuk + Mouse setup became standard then FPS games would change. I think people need to understand that. Your idea of best movement is based on limited movement. You can't Jackie Chan your way through a Quake map. That may change with a new standard control interface and that would open up new avenues of skill. "
I don't even know what "Jackie Chan" your way through a Quake map even means. I don't think canned, contextual movement animations really change the way games are played which is what it sounds like you're implying. Furthermore, I don't think those hinge on whether you're using a keyboard or gamepad.
And obviously WASD isn't ideal for every single game genre. That's not even a point worth making.
I don't even know what "Jackie Chan" your way through a Quake map even means. I don't think canned, contextual movement animations really change the way games are played which is what it sounds like you're implying. Furthermore, I don't think those hinge on whether you're using a keyboard or gamepad.
And obviously WASD isn't ideal for every single game genre. That's not even a point worth making.
This was my set-up in most FPS/action games:
- Arrows: move/strafe
- RShift: jump
- RCtrl: crouch
- Del: reload
- Enter/Mouse wheel click: use
- End/PgDown/Keypad 0, 1 & 4: various functions
That got me covered in pretty much every game I played back then. Of course, something like Starlancer required me to use almost every single key, but that's the exception, not the norm.
You say this like you don't do those same exact things in Quake, CS and a billion other PC games.
Also since when was COD considered a tactical shooter... wtf?!!? People just run around like chickens with their heads cut off and shoot at anything that moves. The movement in COD is pretty awful to.. I just don't understand where you are going with this.
Shit You can't even lean in COD!!!! Tactical my ass!
holy shit
Salacious Crumb
Junior Member
Instant direction change with WASD + infinite range of movement with mouse > analog movement in any competitive shooter, 1st or 3rd person. Sorry kids but these are the facts.
NinjaBoiX
Member
Yeah, but a decent keyboard and gaming mouse is going to set you back two or three times the amount of a pad.
And then I'm still stuck using WASD, just with a slightly more comfortable, albeit still not as comfortable alternative.
Goldenroad
Member
I don't mind it for FPS's if I'm using a regular keyboard at a slant, but trying to use WASD on my laptop is pretty futile, especially if any of the buttons below those ones are programmed to anything.
Especially when people like Rapha and Cooller can beat the people with the best aim. There's a reason why players like Cypher, Stermy, and Zero4 lose to Rapha and Cooller, and that's because they have better control of the game. Even though they're out-aimed by better players, it's takes much more than just aim to win.
Exactly. I think Quake III shows this off more than any other game.
Professional Q3A is a hell of a thing to watch.
Cheesus Crust Pizzeria
Banned
ASDX is where it's at mofos
Jackie Chan = jumping off walls, bouncing over small obstacles, sliding under tables, grappling edges and shifting, momentous movement. Generally interacting physically with the environment at an almost intimate level.
WASD stems from the old problem of PS2 Inputs on keyboards and cheaply made keyboards.
The actual traced wires on these keyboards were shared between a lot of keys, meaning that... say... if you held down the J and R key at the same time, that maybe your spacebar would stop working, or you wouldn't be able to press the number 2.
Naturally this was no good...
So someone sat around and realised that WASD all shared independant connections...
Thus WASD was born.
There you go, you're all smarter.
ps. I don't know if this is fact, it's something I read maybe 10 years ago. So either I am full of it, or I am now your hero.
Cheers.
The actual traced wires on these keyboards were shared between a lot of keys, meaning that... say... if you held down the J and R key at the same time, that maybe your spacebar would stop working, or you wouldn't be able to press the number 2.
Naturally this was no good...
So someone sat around and realised that WASD all shared independant connections...
Thus WASD was born.
There you go, you're all smarter.
ps. I don't know if this is fact, it's something I read maybe 10 years ago. So either I am full of it, or I am now your hero.
Cheers.
The only game I can think of that meets that description is Mirror's Edge, which - Surprise! - plays just fine with WASD. Assassin's Creed and Uncharted have some of that stuff, but doing it consists of holding down one or two buttons and tilting the analog stick in one direction.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Jackie Chan = jumping off walls, bouncing over small obstacles, sliding under tables, grappling edges and shifting, momentous movement. Generally interacting physically with the environment at an almost intimate level."
That sounds an awful lot like Mirror's Edge, which works swimmingly with KB/M.
That sounds an awful lot like Mirror's Edge, which works swimmingly with KB/M.
A bit like mirror's edge then? I don't really see how analog movement is going to add anything major (especially when it limits the number of keys available to you if it's placed on a nunchuck).
Edit:
It plays even more than just fine actually. It works better than with a pad.
While WASD or ESDF or whatever is not the pro of the keyboard, it's having the twenty or so other buttons at your disposal for the other commands. It allows for certain games to avoid being dumbed down to six or so inputs, and lets you perform certain commands without having to move your fingers completely off the movement commands.
Yeah this is a big thing to. I could not handle playing Dishonored with a controller cause of the lack of buttons.. specially hot keys and how you had to hold a button to lean and such.
Leaning in games has almost disappeared because its awkward on a controller
.I can't imagine playing a game like DayZ on console.. they will have to dumb that way down.