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[AAK]

Nelson Mandela did not encourage people to go out and stab innocent children, praise those who did and then pay them and their family a huge salary from international aid. While sitting in a palace. This describes the 'moderate' Palestinian Authority, not even Hamas

True, but if you want to keep drawing parallels, pre-Apartheid South African whites didn't constantly try to steal and settle on the land and property away from the people belonging to the African National Congress (or blacks in general) and then have their government send their army to defend those thiefs either.

Your argument would have more merit if Israel were not rapidly settling on Palestinian land.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

True, but if you want to keep drawing parallels, pre-Apartheid South African whites didn't constantly try to steal and settle on the land and property away from the people belonging to the African National Congress (or blacks in general) and then have their government send their army to defend those thiefs either.

Your argument would have more merit if Israel were not rapidly settling on Palestinian land.

The point is that drawing parallels is stupid because the situations are so different (and OK, also that comparing those who encourage stabbing attacks against civilians to Nelson Mandela is gross). This goes for the America comparison too. These discussions always get bogged down in what I consider pointless arguments about unrelated hypothetical or historical examples.

 

[AAK]

You're the one who drew the parallel. The poster before just said the Palestinians are treated exactly as if they're in an apartheid state. That's not a word exclusive to the Afrikaans, it's the social situation they're put in... and there's nothing incorrect with what he's said.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Are you saying driving into a bus stop, getting out and stabbing people is self-defence?

At this point in the long term of violence in between the Israeli and Palestinian people, even something like this does not surprise me. I am willing to bet in the past 5 years, something equally shocking and cruel took place (from either side onto the other).

At some point, both sides may just get tired of the violence if they just saw it wasn't going anywhere. Imo it would mean Israel taking a stab at piece and realizing that they'll have to deal with rockets from those who don't desire peace and not trying to respond with violence. And likewise, the Palestinian people to do their best to reign in those who want peace and push out those who do not and as well as dealing with extremist responses.

Unimaginable patience would be needed... and it might be decades and a huge government change on both ends for that to even become a thought.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

You're the one who drew the parallel. The poster before just said the Palestinians are treated exactly as if they're in an apartheid state. That's not a word exclusive to the Afrikaans, it's the social situation they're put in... and there's nothing incorrect with what he's said.

I have no idea what you are talking about. By pointing out a clear difference I was doing the opposite of drawing a parallel. You also did the opposite of drawing a parallel by stating yet another way the situations are different. Bringing Nelson Mandela into the equation is drawing the parallel, trying to make a point about how in both situations the tag of 'terrorist' is either unwarranted or merely subjective.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

A mutual friend of mine on Facebook said it perfectly: What needs to happen is a renewed call for ending military occupation of Palestinian land, the dismantling of illegal settlements, accountability, and the recognition of true self determination and freedom of the Palestinian people.

anything short of this is bullshit

 

[BowieZ]

Humans are a bunch of shitty, greedy, weak and fearful manchildren, on every side.

Not a single one of us deserves this beautiful Earth.

Fuck all of us.

 

[Chichikov]

I have no idea what you are talking about. By pointing out a clear difference I was doing the opposite of drawing a parallel. You also did the opposite of drawing a parallel by stating yet another way the situations are different. Bringing Nelson Mandela into the equation is drawing the parallel, trying to make a point about how in both situations the tag of 'terrorist' is either unwarranted or merely subjective.

Let me help you then -

Palestinians in the west bank are being oppressed pretty similarly to blacks in Apartheid era south Africa.
Black people in South Africa resorted to violent struggle against apartheid that often targeted innocent civilians. The tactics they employed can be accurately described as terrorism (that is to say that their goal was to inflict terror on the ruling white population, they were not under the impression that they can defeat them straight up militarily).
Even though terrorism and attacking civilians is generally and rightfully frowned upon by most people, and even though those organizations has been labeled as terrorism at the time, history had not judged them too harshly.

You understand the bigger point now?
You can keep this reductive and pedantic argument about what is drawing parallel means or whatever, but I don't think it's amazingly productive.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Let me help you then -

Palestinians in the west bank are being oppressed pretty similarly to blacks in Apartheid era south Africa.
Black people in South Africa resorted to violent struggle against apartheid that often targeted innocent civilians. The tactics they employed can be accurately described as terrorism (that is to say that their goal was to inflict terror on the ruling white population, they were not under the impression that they can defeat them straight up militarily).
Even though terrorism and attacking civilians is generally and rightfully frowned upon by most people, and even though those organizations has been labeled as terrorism at the time, history had not judged them too harshly.

You understand the bigger point now?
You can keep this reductive and pedantic argument about what is drawing parallel means or whatever, but I don't think it's amazingly productive.

Can always rely on you to ignore every ignorant or hateful point so long as it is against Israel yet leap into action the moment someone questions the narrative.

While I have issues with the apartheid analogy, I wasn't questioning it here, not least because I recognise and condemn the situation in the West Bank, whatever label you give it.

I take issue with the comparison of Mandela to the corrupt terrorists that the Palestinians unfortunately have as their leaders. Perhaps history would have judged Mandela more harshly if the case for him being a terrorist was more than just a drop in the ocean compared to the body of evidence that is growing every day as the number of dead and injured rises while Fatah and Hamas encourage and reward the perpetrators, growing fatter and richer in the process.

 

[Chichikov]

Can always rely on you to ignore every ignorant or hateful point so long as it is against Israel yet leap into action the moment someone questions the narrative.

While I have issues with the apartheid analogy, I wasn't questioning it here, not least because I recognise and condemn the situation in the West Bank, whatever label you give it.

I take issue with the comparison of Mandela to the corrupt terrorists that the Palestinians unfortunately have as their leaders. Perhaps history would have judged Mandela more harshly if the case for him being a terrorist was more than just a drop in the ocean compared to the body of evidence that is growing every day as the number of dead and injured rises while Fatah and Hamas encourage and reward the perpetrators, growing fatter and richer in the process.

What are the issues you have with apartheid analogy?
It is not perfect, such thing never are, but it's the best analogy I can think of to what's going on in the west bank and can help people who are not too familiar with the situation on the ground to understand what is going on there.

And the ANC had comical levels of corruption, and yet people still are able to see past then and generally recognize their struggle to be just, even if not executed in a just way at every turn.

I believe history will judge the Palestinian struggle the same.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Just saw a video where someone seems to be putting a piece of pork on the dead body of an alleged Palestinian attacker:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S4azmn6u5U

Wtf.

Disclaimer: Saw the link on a right-wing extremist website (where they cheered), so not sure if this is accurate.

 

[Chichikov]

Just saw a video where someone seems to be putting a piece of pork on the dead body of an alleged Palestinian attacker:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S4azmn6u5U

Wtf.

Disclaimer: Saw the link on a right-wing extremist website (where they cheered), so not sure if this is accurate.

It's true.
The guy in the stretcher stabbed a policeman and got shot, the guy with the pork is a settler.

There is this bullshit story about how the US discouraged Muslim terrorism in the Philippines by burying them wrapped in pork.
That crap has been going around right-wing circles for ages, I guess someone finally tried that shit.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Isn't pork forbidden in Judaism?

 

[ZiZ]

Isn't pork forbidden in Judaism?

if it's anything like Islam then it's only forbidden to eat.

speaking of pork, why do people think pig blood or bacon is like Muslim kryptonite just because they aren't allowed to eat it. nothing in the quran says they can't for instance wear pig leather. Muslims tend to consider pigs as filthy, and images of pigs wallowing in their own filth don't help, but that's about it.

 

[| Praxis |]

This is what happens when you're forbidden to eat bacon.

 

[Chariot]

This is what happens when you're forbidden to eat bacon.

Please elaborate.

 

[| Praxis |]

Please elaborate.

Bacon is amazing.

 

[soul]

Video of 13 and 15 yo Palestinian terrorist brothers searching for victims and eventually stabbing 13 yo Jewish boy. I'll see if I can find that video with English subtitles.

 

[Mr Git]

Holy shit. These were collected in only a few hours time.

See this picture tells me they're desperate, especially in the face of jets and until only a couple of years ago white fucking phosphorus.

 

[Corronchilejano]

Video of 13 and 15 yo Palestinian terrorist brothers searching for victims and eventually stabbing 13 yo Jewish boy. I'll see if I can find that video with English subtitles.

What a horrible situation.

 

[M.D]

Video of 13 and 15 yo Palestinian terrorist brothers searching for victims and eventually stabbing 13 yo Jewish boy. I'll see if I can find that video with English subtitles.

The same kid that was declared innocent and a martyr by the PA.

The same PA that praises terrorists and pays their families huge salaries each year while they sit in prison. Using international aid money, I bet.
The PA is "commited to peace" like Netanyahu is.

 

[Shuggananas]

Video of 13 and 15 yo Palestinian terrorist brothers searching for victims and eventually stabbing 13 yo Jewish boy. I'll see if I can find that video with English subtitles.

Don't think we need this kind of video linked here

 

[soul]

NBCNews captured the shooting of a terrorist trying to stab security forces. Notice the knife in hand. The terrorist got killed.

 

[soul]

Palestinian drawings gone viral at forums, facebook etc.

This is what young Palestinian kids are exposed to.

 

[Gus tha God]

Palestinian drawings gone viral at forums, facebook etc.

This is what young Palestinian kids are exposed to.

The ones that haven't been murdered yet.

 

[pgtl_10]

Well one party is committed to ethic cleansing, denying the other in basic human rights, gives no representation, negotiates in bad faith, imprisions without charges or due process, restricts movement internally, and uses collective punishment. They also have the power to stop, but don't.




See Isreal encourages violence. You can look at Gaza vs the West Bank. Through armed resistance Isreal has actually pulled out and the people in Gaza are able to move freely, and not worry about new settlement. The other hand in the West Bank where there has capitulation the Palestinains still have internal checkpoints, are displaced weekly, and have attacks by settlers from outposts with no recourse. Even after the last incursion to Gaza the Isreali government has started to reduce the blockade of goods to Gaza, meanwhile in the West Bank things are become wore. If Isreal would reward non violence then perhaps your solution would work.

Israel did not pull out of Gaza. The UN just confirmed as much in a recent report.

 

[genjiZERO]

Can always rely on you to ignore every ignorant or hateful point so long as it is against Israel yet leap into action the moment someone questions the narrative.

While I have issues with the apartheid analogy, I wasn't questioning it here, not least because I recognise and condemn the situation in the West Bank, whatever label you give it.

I take issue with the comparison of Mandela to the corrupt terrorists that the Palestinians unfortunately have as their leaders. Perhaps history would have judged Mandela more harshly if the case for him being a terrorist was more than just a drop in the ocean compared to the body of evidence that is growing every day as the number of dead and injured rises while Fatah and Hamas encourage and reward the perpetrators, growing fatter and richer in the process.

Not only are ad hominems logical fallacies, but they give the impression that you lack an argument.

 

[pgtl_10]

Let's imagine a reality where Israel capitulates on every single point. Does the terrorism against Israel then stop, you think? What if it gets worse because it shows Israel is weak and killing their civilians gets you whatever you want? I think the latter is far more likely. Every nation in the world says the same thing "you do not negotiate with terrorists." There is a reason for it, I imagine. Oh, but if we only lived in the world of a 19 year old college freshman polisci student's imagining. In the real world, though, giving a violent group exactly what the want has never ended violence.

And I don't excuse Israel's actions on anything they've ever done, but I get the feeling people aren't being honest about what's going on here. Just a lot of emotion and binary rhetorical reasoning.

Stop colonization and giving human rights is negotiating with terrorists?

 

[pgtl_10]

Peace could happen under certain circumstances. Probably never in my lifetime,but it should happen. Jerusalem as some sort of shared neutral city with UN monitoring but this a enormous stretch. Probably the biggest sticking point.
Give back the land. Israel has to be recognized as legitimate. No you can't have the political wing saying we could do that while the military wing wants to destroy you. I think it can't be two separate land masses being unified as one country. Maybe the West bank becomes Palestine with some extra land concessions to make up for Gaza. Gaza to Egypt? I don't know.

It'll require some different thinking.

Israel has given back land before. The doubled their land mass after keeping the Sinai after Egypt failed to beat them. Jordan got the West Bank back, same scenario. At one point the Golan would have went back to Syria in exchange.

There are a number or scenarios that will never happen.
1. Just handing back territory with no security plan
2. Someone forcing them to give it back.

Jordan never got back the West Bank and renounced all claims to the PLO. Giving Gaza to Egypt basically ignores Palestinians own interests.

 

[genjiZERO]

Stop colonization and giving human rights is negotiating with terrorists?

He is also ignoring the cycle of violence. IMO Israel needs to be the first to lay down their weapons because they are the ones in the position of power.

 

[pgtl_10]

Don't we all know by now that they love to hide near civilians so they can pretend the bad people from Israel murdered innocents when they retaliate? Typically Palestinians know that if a rocket is launched from where they live they should get out of the quarter ASAP because the response will come. It's standard procedure for Israel to bomb the area an attack originated from.

I hope this is not a case of Hamas forcing civilians to stay in their homes despite an incoming attack, but that shit has happened before.

The UN report on what you just said found that Israel attacks even when no attacks are reported.

 

[pgtl_10]

Palestinian drawings gone viral at forums, facebook etc.

This is what young Palestinian kids are exposed to.

They are also exposed to other things like settlements and missiles which lead to such drawings. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. Furthermore many of these attacks are happening outside the PA's jurisdiction. Why can't the Israeli government contain their own population? They have long claimed they are some oasis in the desert yet they have to deal with flarge ups every few years under their control.

 

[Betty]

He is also ignoring the cycle of violence. IMO Israel needs to be the first to lay down their weapons because they are the ones in the position of power.

If the roles were reversed, and the Palestinians were in a position of power, would they lay down their weapons first?

 

[Chariot]

If the roles were reversed, and the Palestinians were in a position of power, would they lay down their weapons first?

This fucking logic. Is that what you would've told the Untied States in the civil war? If the roles were reversed and the black people in a position of power, would they stop slavery? We fucking don't know, they might as well or might not, but the point is, that it's injustice. The state of Israel don't have to throw away all weapons and open all doors. No settlements, grind them all into the ground and get back into your own borders, don't treat the people of Palestine like lesser humans and don't block UN investigations into the area. When people want Israel to lay down the weapons they mean that Israel should keep to it's own area and not going around abusing, mistreating and killing Palestinans.

 

[Betty]

This fucking logic. Is that what you would've told the Untied States in the civil war? If the roles were reversed and the black people in a position of power, would they stop slavery? We fucking don't know, they might as well or might not, but the point is, that it's injustice. The state of Israel don't have to throw away all weapons and open all doors. No settlements, grind them all into the ground and get back into your own borders, don't treat the people of Palestine like lesser humans and don't block UN investigations into the area. When people want Israel to lay down the weapons they mean that Israel should keep to it's own area and not going around abusing, mistreating and killing Palestinans.

So if they did that, and the Palestinians still continue violence, what then?

 

[genjiZERO]

If the roles were reversed, and the Palestinians were in a position of power, would they lay down their weapons first?

There is no way of knowing this, but morally they should.

 

[Chariot]

So if they did that, and the Palestinians still continue violence, what then?

Peace isn't that easy of course, it won't be bloodless over night, but you gotta start somewhere. Look at the Westbank where Palestinians stopped violence and got rewarded with their land taken away by settlers of the State of Israel. My idea of getting Israel and Palestine right is to give the People of Palestine options. Right now they are pushed into a corner. If they don't do anything Israel grinds them very slowly into dust, taken their land. If they do something, Israeli attacks them directly. Many of Hamas supporters are coming from there. From a position of helplessness where the only way they even get a chance to stay free in their land is to fight for freedom. If it weren't for the State of Israel constantly stealing and attacking the people of Palestine, the Hamas would just a bunch of nutjobs. Now they are a horde of nutjobs with a powerbase made out of desperate people.

 

[Betty]

How Israel has treated the Palestinian people has been appalling, but I feel if they suddenly stop all retaliations, remove any sanctions and allow the Palestinian people to live freely nothing will change.

There would be another attack, murder, whatever, and another, and another, and eventually they'd be forced into doing something, probably very disproportionate to what they suffered, and the cycle would pick back up again.

Short of a miracle, all of this is only going to end with one side being wiped out.

And even then the resentment will still linger.

 

[Chariot]

So, your solution is doing nothing and just watching as Israel is slowly kill or drive out all non-jews out of Palestine? I don't think that's working out well either.

 

[Corronchilejano]

So if they did that, and the Palestinians still continue violence, what then?

They could, you know, do it first to see if the violence ends.

 

[Betty]

So, your solution is doing nothing and just watching as Israel is slowly kill or drive out all non-jews out of Palestine? I don't think that's working out well either.

There isn't really much we can do... unless you want to go to war with Israel, which would cause a lot of casualties on both sides, not to mention our own losses as well.

Unless one sides gives up, which isn't going to happen, this will only end in one group being removed by force.

 

[genjiZERO]

How Israel has treated the Palestinian people has been appalling, but I feel if they suddenly stop all retaliations, remove any sanctions and allow the Palestinian people to live freely nothing will change.

There would be another attack, murder, whatever, and another, and another, and eventually they'd be forced into doing something, probably very disproportionate to what they suffered, and the cycle would pick back up again.

Short of a miracle, all of this is only going to end with one side being wiped out.

And even then the resentment will still linger.

So if they did that, and the Palestinians still continue violence, what then?

Well, Israel has never done what the poster above has asked for. Also, there is always going to be violence. The goal isn't and never will be to end all violence. The goal is to forge a society where all can live together peacefully. If you want there to be less violence then remove the stimuli that encourages peace over violence. But that's not the incentives or realities that Palestinians face.

As an observer (who has been to the region FYI) it seems like if the Palestinians (A) are peaceful then Israel continues to take their lands and marginalise them and (B) violent then Israel bombs them into oblivion. Neither of those scenarios are things that encourage peace. It's a "damned if you do; damned if you don't" situation.

I've been very consistent in my opinion on this, but there is only one way to solve this problem. Neither Israelis nor Palestinians are going anywhere. Since Israel is the stronger side it has to take the proactive role. Israel has to put down it's guns first, fairly pay Palestinians for lands taken since at least the 1960s (and stop taking lands), and strive for a secular multi-cultural society. Those are the incentives necessary to "end" violence. Frankly, those are very easy things to do with the willpower to do them.

 

[Betty]

Well, Israel has never done what the poster above has asked for. Also, there is always going to be violence. The goal isn't and never will be to end all violence. The goal is to forge a society where all can live together peacefully. If you want there to be less violence then remove the stimuli that encourages peace over violence. But that's not the incentives or realities that Palestinians face.

As an observer (who has been to the region FYI) it seems like if the Palestinians (A) are peaceful then Israel continues to take their lands and marginalise them and (B) violent then Israel bombs them into oblivion. Neither of those scenarios are things that encourage peace. It's a "damned if you do; damned if you don't" situation.

I've been very consistent in my opinion on this, but there is only one way to solve this problem. Neither Israelis nor Palestinians are going anywhere. Since Israel is the stronger side it has to take the proactive role. Israel has to put down it's guns first, fairly pay Palestinians for lands taken since at least the 1960s (and stop taking lands), and strive for a secular multi-cultural society. Those are the incentives necessary to "end" violence. Frankly, those are very easy things to do with the willpower to do them.

It's easy in theory, but as soon as there's an attack on Israeli citizens in your scenario it's hard to imagine they'd just shrug and continue this ideal society.

They've built up too much hatred for each other for your idea to ever work. The Palestinians would not cease their attacks and the Israelis would not be able to show restraint.

I'm sure the vast majority of Palestinians are peaceful like you say, but it only takes one idiot carrying out one attack to set off the whole conflict all over again.

 

[Chariot]

There isn't really much we can do... unless you want to go to war with Israel, which would cause a lot of casualties on both sides, not to mention our own losses as well.

Unless one sides gives up, which isn't going to happen, this will only end in one group being removed by force.

There is a lot that could be done. The USA is the key, because they are protecting Israel at the moment. From the muslim countries around it of course, but also the international community. And the latter is a big mistake, because the State of Israel got a freecard for it's crimes, especially since it's grinding very slowly. There are two things the USA could do like tomorrow. First: don't block the UN in investigating the situation. Second: Tell Israel to fuck off the Westbank or face financial cuts.

 

[Betty]

There is a lot that could be done. The USA is the key, because they are protecting Israel at the moment. From the muslim countries around it of course, but also the international community. And the latter is a big mistake, because the State of Israel got a freecard for it's crimes, especially since it's grinding very slowly. There are two things the USA could do like tomorrow. First: don't block the UN in investigating the situation. Second: Tell Israel to fuck off the Westbank or face financial cuts.

That doesn't sound like a lot, certainly doesn't sound substantive enough to make them even consider stopping what they're doing.

 

[genjiZERO]

It's easy in theory, but as soon as there's an attack on Israeli citizens in your scenario it's hard to imagine they'd just shrug and continue this ideal society.

They've built up too much hatred for each other for your idea to ever work. The Palestinians would not cease their attacks and the Israelis would not be able to show restraint.

I'm sure the vast majority of Palestinians are peaceful like you say, but it only takes one idiot carrying out one attack to set off the whole conflict all over again.

But it begs the question (and as I posted on the first page): when is it terrorism and when is it just criminal violence?

 

[Goliath]

But it begs the question (and as I posted on the first page): when is it terrorism and when is it just criminal violence?

Motive and Intent. Those are how people are prosecuted.

 

[genjiZERO]

Motive and Intent. Those are how people are prosecuted.

Exactly. But not all of these cases fall under the definition of terrorism. Additionally, simple violence - even if politically motivated doesn't make it terrorism. Over use of the word both dilutes the meaning of the word. We have violence in the US too - even ethnic violence. But is every instance of a white person killing a black person because they are black terrorism?

So again, there will always be violence. There will be some Palestinian who kills an Israeli because he's Israeli, and an Israeli who kills Palestinian because he's Palestinian, but I think it's important to view it for what it is and in what context it's done in and not act hastily. Isolate that killer. But don't extend that his actions to a movement or group unless there is really good evidence that they should be.

 

[Kolx]

Palestinian drawings gone viral at forums, facebook etc.

This is what young Palestinian kids are exposed to.

When you takeover their lands and kill innocents in vicious way you can't really expect them to just STFU and say ok. They're basically doing what any other nation in the world would have done if they were in their place.

 

[AlphaSnake]

Yep, this thread is turning into exactly what I thought it would.