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[shawnbuddy]

Edit: Oop, my "to" ended up in the wrong place in the title. Sorry.

As someone from Appalachia it has seemed to me for a long time that the only thing that could save coal in this region is a fat government subsidy package. Well, West Virginia Governor Jim Justice (the "Democrat" who recently switched parties at a Trump rally) is not above suggesting that. He's cast it as a national security issue and says Trump is intrigued.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...said-to-be-really-interested-in-coal-payments

Justice, a coal and real estate mogul elected governor last year as a Democrat, announced at a West Virginia rally alongside President Trump last week that he’s becoming a Republican. Justice has recently spent a “goodly amount of time" meeting one-on-one with Trump and has liked the feedback to his pro-coal proposal. The plan calls for the Department of Homeland Security to send $15 to eastern U.S. utilities for every ton of Appalachia coal they burn.

“He’s really interested. He likes the idea,” Justice said in a phone interview on Wednesday when asked about Trump’s reaction. “Naturally, he’s trying to vet the whole process. It’s a complicated idea.”

In Justice’s eyes, the coal payments will be necessary because Trump’s moves to roll back regulations on the Appalachian coal industry won’t be enough to preserve it. The Appalachian coal sector has been shrinking for years as companies are forced to spend more money to access harder-to-reach seams of the fossil fuel. Meanwhile, competitors in regions including the Illinois Basin and Powder River Basin of Wyoming and Montana have much thicker coal seams that are cheaper to get to.

Critics say such a proposal would be expensive and misguided. U.S. power plants burned at least 110 million short tons of Appalachian coal in 2016, according to Andrew Cosgrove, an analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence. A payment of $15 for each of those tons would cost at least $1.65 billion.

At the heart of his pitch, Justice argues that the country is becoming too reliant on natural gas for power and it’s not enough to supplement that with coal from the Midwest and West.

Justice rejects the notion that his plan amounts to a "bailout" or "subsidy" for Appalachian coal. Rather, it’s a matter of national security, he said, because terrorists could easily blow up important gas pipelines or derail freight trains shipping coal to the east, leaving large swaths of the country lacking power-plant fuel.

“Can you imagine what would happen if we lost the power in the east for a month, or two months, or three months?” Justice said. “It would be like a nuclear blast went off. You would lose hundreds of thousands of people. It would be just absolute chaos beyond belief.’’

A more in depth but paywalled Washington Post article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...d-security-initiative/?utm_term=.cfc50e1db563

As a resident of the area I guess it COULD work but I don't know if it should. Even Justice admits that coal's decline is inevitable. We should be preparing for it now instead of putting it on life support. And the homeland security argument is just hyperbolic FUD.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Maybe WV should invest in renewables.

 

[Transistor]

Maybe WV should invest in renewables.

But.... But.... Coal!!!!

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

But.... But.... Coal!!!!

These people love coal so much that they should be married and buried in it.

 

[Random Human]

My understanding is a major source of the job loses in coal is because of automation, so I'm not sure this will do anything for the people who seriously think Trump is going to magically turn back the clock 40 years.

Either way it sounds dumb so it's probably something he'll try to do.

 

[BlackLagoon]

He should look into buggy whip subsidies while he's at it.

 

[rekameohs]

Gotta love dat black lung

 

[shawnbuddy]

My understanding is a major source of the job loses in coal is because of automation, so I'm not sure this will do anything for the people who seriously think Trump is going to magically turn back the clock 40 years.

Either way it sounds dumb so it's probably something he'll try to do.

At least in eastern Kentucky where I live it's not primarily automation. It's just that we're just mining far fewer tons.

 

[Ithil]

So they want handouts?

 

[Kensation]

Woo hoo, our shitty, low paying jobs are saved!

 

[gabbo]

Take the money and design retraining programs for other industries. There is no way the bailout saves shit

 

[Steejee]

He should look into buggy whip subsidies while he's at it.

Beat me to it.

 

[Skel1ingt0n]

Not saying this is a fix nor do I suggest it's even a decent idea. I know job loss is inevitable, especially in an industry like coal.

But while I live many states over in a relatively bustling economy, I do a lot of remote work in WV. And, without a doubt, it's one of the most struggling economies I've ever experienced, anectodally. Moreso than southern Kentucky, the poorest parts of AZ, Michigan, etc. In 100s of contacts, every single one of them has a family member at best just out of work, or at worst addicted to some awful drug like heroin; a direct result of having an industry that single handily held the economy up, collapsing in a matter of years.

Again, anetdotes. But that state does need help.

 

[geomon]

Subsidize it for what? Coal isn't some new development or new endeavor that you think will eventually become successful. Coal has been used for thousands of years. It's had its day. It's over.

 

[plagiarize]

Not saying this is a fix nor do I suggest it's even a decent idea. I know job loss is inevitable, especially in an industry like coal.

But while I live many states over in a relatively bustling economy, I do a lot of remote work in WV. And, without a doubt, it's one of the most struggling economies I've ever experienced, anectodally. Moreso than southern Kentucky, the poorest parts of AZ, Michigan, etc. In 100s of contacts, every single one of them has a family member at best just out of work, or at worst addicted to some awful drug like heroin; a direct result of having an industry that single handily held the economy up, collapsing in a matter of years.

Again, anetdotes. But that state does need help.

Sure.

Let's not help keep an industry that is 100% awful for the planet and 100% awful for the workers limping along.

Let's do something else.

Subsidizing coal is fucking insulting.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Not saying this is a fix nor do I suggest it's even a decent idea. I know job loss is inevitable, especially in an industry like coal.

But while I live many states over in a relatively bustling economy, I do a lot of remote work in WV. And, without a doubt, it's one of the most struggling economies I've ever experienced, anectodally. Moreso than southern Kentucky, the poorest parts of AZ, Michigan, etc. In 100s of contacts, every single one of them has a family member at best just out of work, or at worst addicted to some awful drug like heroin; a direct result of having an industry that single handily held the economy up, collapsing in a matter of years.

Again, anetdotes. But that state does need help.

Propping up industries which the market no longer wants is a waste of money and always will be. You might as well just be paying them money to dig holes and fill them. Distorting natural economic forces just prolongs their suffering.

 

[Briarios]

Why? Let it die. Subsidize manufacturing of green energy materials in W Va instead. Build a solar panel or wind turbine plant and put people in jobs that won't kill them and the planet.

 

[Balphon]

Jim Justice is a billionaire coal baron.

But I'm sure his motives are entirely patriotic. National security and all that.

 

[plagiarize]

Propping up industries which the market no longer wants is a waste of money and always will be. You might as well just be paying them money to dig holes and fill them.

That would be better.

We do not have a shortage of electricity. We do not need coal. You subsidize coal at the cost of other industries including natural gas (fracking is awful, but still cleaner than coal).

At least paying people to needlessly dig holes and then fill them in wouldn't be poisoning them or the planet to mine a resource we no longer need, since other ways of generating electricity are cheaper, and abundant.

 

[sturgboski]

"Renewables are only competitive due to government subsidies, we cant have that. Instead, the government should subsidize the coal mining that I stand to gain financially from."

 

[andymcc]

Not saying this is a fix nor do I suggest it's even a decent idea. I know job loss is inevitable, especially in an industry like coal.

But while I live many states over in a relatively bustling economy, I do a lot of remote work in WV. And, without a doubt, it's one of the most struggling economies I've ever experienced, anectodally. Moreso than southern Kentucky, the poorest parts of AZ, Michigan, etc. In 100s of contacts, every single one of them has a family member at best just out of work, or at worst addicted to some awful drug like heroin; a direct result of having an industry that single handily held the economy up, collapsing in a matter of years.

Again, anetdotes. But that state does need help.

They need real infrastructure that isn't just there so coal companies can remove resources. Reinvest in roads and data cabling, put these out of work coal miners into govt jobs and stop handing the (very little) road work out to contractors tied to local governments.

 

[Vengal]

We subsidize the crap out of farming which artificially props up many states so I can get a gov of a failing state bringing that up. However at least that food feeds people and goes to aid packages.

 

[Kin5290]

Nobody wants this. Not green energy advocates and industry, not natural gas producers, and certainly not other coal producers. WV coal is shitty, dirty, and buried deep underground, which is why it is so inefficient to buy eastern seaboard coal compared to other American producers.

 

[EGM1966]

Sounds like a plea for a subsidy wrapped up in handy fearmongering about terrorists to me to try for an angle to increase odds of getting it.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

How bout subsidizing the start up of the solar or wind turbine industry there instead with that money.

 

[Chumly]

Why the hell would we spend billions on a dying industry. I would support using those billions instead building new industries in West Virginia

 

[Kthulhu]

Even a massive subsidy won't save coal. People don't want it due to the pollution, and even if they didn't it's only a matter of time before oil, gas, solar, and wind become even cheaper.

These people love coal so much that they should be married and buried in it.

Considering how much of it is in their lungs and in their water they're closer to it then marriage ever will bring them.

 

[Eusis]

So do we still not have poll numbers for him post-party switch? I'd like to see if that helped him or fucked him.

 

[Kthulhu]

Why the hell would we spend billions on a dying industry. I would support using those billions instead building new industries in West Virginia

We are funding a new jobs program in the Appalachian region. Trump wants to cut it's funding.

 

[Link]

Not saying this is a fix nor do I suggest it's even a decent idea. I know job loss is inevitable, especially in an industry like coal.

But while I live many states over in a relatively bustling economy, I do a lot of remote work in WV. And, without a doubt, it's one of the most struggling economies I've ever experienced, anectodally. Moreso than southern Kentucky, the poorest parts of AZ, Michigan, etc. In 100s of contacts, every single one of them has a family member at best just out of work, or at worst addicted to some awful drug like heroin; a direct result of having an industry that single handily held the economy up, collapsing in a matter of years.

Again, anetdotes. But that state does need help.

Sounds to me like they need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

 

[shawnbuddy]

Take the money and design retraining programs for other industries. There is no way the bailout saves shit

That's what Hillary was going to do, so kinda doubtful Trump goes there.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Not saying this is a fix nor do I suggest it's even a decent idea. I know job loss is inevitable, especially in an industry like coal.

But while I live many states over in a relatively bustling economy, I do a lot of remote work in WV. And, without a doubt, it's one of the most struggling economies I've ever experienced, anectodally. Moreso than southern Kentucky, the poorest parts of AZ, Michigan, etc. In 100s of contacts, every single one of them has a family member at best just out of work, or at worst addicted to some awful drug like heroin; a direct result of having an industry that single handily held the economy up, collapsing in a matter of years.

Again, anetdotes. But that state does need help.

Uh, yea, we know. There were plans to pump shit loads of money into areas like this in order to help the people already effected by job loss, and the future people who will be put out of a job by government policy.

Most, if not all of those programs died when Trump started ripping up Obama's executive orders, mainly the Clean Power Act iirc

 

[kess]

Here's a documentary from fifty-four years ago that deals in part with coal communities being ravaged by automation and how economically backwards they were.

https://archive.org/details/TheHighLonesomeSound1963

The national government has been subsidizing the area since the New Deal.

 

[kswiston]

Is he trying to say with a straight face that blowing up a pipeline or derailing a coal shipment would leave any portion of the country without power for 1-3 months?

 

[krackerjack]

Fun fact: Numerous people at the Land Rover dealership in Charleston have told me coal companies buy more Range Rovers than they do work trucks because of the credits they get due to the vehicle's rating (category, tow capacity, weight, etc.).

 

[NihonTiger90]

Justice, a coal and real estate mogul

That's all you need to know. He wants a bailout because his industry is losing its importance.

 

[Psychoward]

Fuck WV leadership and the people in the state that voted for their untimely deaths, fuck trump.

How goddamn stupid do you have to be

 

[Xe4]

Subsidizing coal won't save the industry. Literally nothing will save the industry because coal mining is a shit industry that gets harder every year, is dirty as fuck, and is already subsidized to the hilt!

 

[gabbo]

That's what Hillary was going to do, so kinda doubtful Trump goes there.

Oh, i meant take Trump's [federal] money and use it for retraining. Throwing at coal will just prolong the inevitable and give these people more false hope.

 

[Nikodemos]

"Renewables are only competitive due to government subsidies, we cant have that. Instead, the government should subsidize the coal mining that I stand to gain financially from."

Amusing how all these Randian Ubermenschen are so quick to send their 'principles' down the shitter when it comes to their sacred cow being turned into burgers.

A true conservative would militate for the abolition of all energy subsidies, both direct and indirect.

 

[Abstrusity]

Subsidizing coal won't save the industry. Literally nothing will save the industry because coal mining is a shit industry that gets harder every year, is dirty as fuck, and is already subsidized to the hilt!

It's not even that, it's that nobody fucking WANTS it anymore. Globally, coal is on the decline because better, cheaper alternatives exist. And with or without subsidization, they will continue to do so, and get cheaper all the while.

 

[Ogodei]

Just pour that $15 per ton into any number of other existing antipoverty programs that benefit Appalachia. It'll do more good for the average resident and not kill the earth.

 

[RumbleHumble]

This just in: Trump wants to subsidize cancer. He thinks it's a winning idea!

 

[Slayven]

But that is a government handout....

 

[adamsappel]

I'm originally from West Virginia, and I'm firmly behind a federal/state subsidy for coal. But, the mines have to be shut down and money given directly to miners for a period commensurate with their employment, with a GI Bill-like endowment of future training or education, and fair market value to the mine owners.

 

[Subv3rsi0n]

I guess it's hard to pull up your bootstraps when you have black lung.

 

[Ramirez]

At least in eastern Kentucky where I live it's not primarily automation. It's just that we're just mining far fewer tons.

[ig]http://kftc.org/sites/default/files/media/coal_trends_graph_1.png[/img]

Hey, I live in SE KY, where you from?

 

[Angry Grimace]

At least in eastern Kentucky where I live it's not primarily automation. It's just that we're just mining far fewer tons.

That's because coal doesn't have any demand. It's like tying to bring back the blacksmithing industry.

 

[Madame M]

West Virginia would be better off subsidizing their opiate crisis

 

[Beer Monkey]

The invisible hand flipped you off, accept it.