BobbyRobby
Member
joining up with a team and fighting for one group's interest is typically a lame thing to do in my opinion.
it is often a beacon for bigots also.
it is often a beacon for bigots also.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
What are your thoughts on feminism
- Thread starter Earthstrike
- Start date
- Status
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Amazing Atheist is godawful. He should just wear a fedora and write stupid quotes and be done with it.
Feminism is one of the most successful popular movements of our time, both in terms of civil rights, and how to build more productive and contributing members of society. I think there is a lot we can learn from it and apply to other areas.
Feminism is one of the most successful popular movements of our time, both in terms of civil rights, and how to build more productive and contributing members of society. I think there is a lot we can learn from it and apply to other areas.
Kind of, yeah. It developed at least partially by happenstance and was kept in place by institutions meant to keep things the way they were. Tradition can be used to justify anything, so it's really not much of an argument at all unless you 're ready to deal with those ramifications.
For example, men complain about things like courts being biased towards women regarding children. It's a legitimate issue and one I hope can be fixed however who is the one that started the idea of women being the better parent? The one that stays home, cooks and cleans? Men.
Jzero
Member
I'm an atheist and i can't even watch most of his videos.
By definition, those friends aren't feminists, and are pretty dumb to boot.. All of those memes you posted are contradictions.
Also, I find it hard to believe that someone said that she wants equal rights and that she wants to be treated like a lady. The more likely reality is that one woman said the first thing, a second woman said the second thing, and some dumbass who thinks that women are a hive mind concluded that feminists are hypocrites.
So because some men in the past came up with the idea that women should stay home, cook, and clean all men in the future should be punished for that, and feminism shouldn't make any effort to fix the issue?
Are you seriously trying to suggest that you know someone else's experiences better than they do?
I mean, I agree that by definition they wouldn't be feminists, but I don't see how this "I know what REALLY happened based on my expectations" game is helping your argument.
I agree with feminism but I want a male movement. Why should mothers always get kids in a divorce? Why women cheating on their spouses is justified as my husband doesn't listen to me? Why adult female teachers are not viewed as sexual predators?
Also I do agreed there needs to be a stronger feminist movement in the ME but places like France need to not ban the burqua because they think they need to protect women.
Also I do agreed there needs to be a stronger feminist movement in the ME but places like France need to not ban the burqua because they think they need to protect women.
Jzero
Member
Jesus fucking christ, how many times do i have to say that i meant specific people and not all feminist in general. I fucking like feminism. Those images were just an example of what those specific idiots say/think.
Feminism has been taken over by negative women who want to destroy everything masculine. Some say most feminists are lesbians, which wouldn't be too far fetched. Most people don't realize what true Feminism is and go along with the loud-mouth bullshit that has presently infected the Feminist movement. However, Feminism is great when it is done in its true form, and I feel a restructuring is what's needed within the movement.
Captain_Spanky
Member
That's feminism, at least true feminism. (Excuse the "True Scotsman" fallacy). It's equal rights, nothing more or less. If feminists got what they wanted the above would happen by default. The problem is men and women with chips on their shoulder causing social issues that promote inequality in the name of feminism.
Any intelligent, empathetic human is a feminist in today's world by default. Don't let misused labels shift your natural position.
If you add "...and men" to the end of that, you have feminism in a nutshell.
Unless you are on /r/MRA
Choke on the Magic
Banned
Too busy being a man to give a shit about feminism.
Where exactly did I say that? I'm pointing out that men started it and are a reason society still views women that way and is also another reason it's hard to fight against that kind of issue. It's similar to complaining about having to pay for dates and yet many men will insist and force you to let them pay. If you want it to change then you have to target who is perpetuating these roles.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Might I make a suggestion? I recommend conceding that your initial foray into this thread was a poor post and moving on. Alternatively, I would suggest simply bowing out of the thread. Either way, posting those meme pictures was a terrible way to attempt to get any sort of nuanced point across, and it would behoove you not to double down and insist that people simply are misunderstanding a fine point you've made, as you did no such thing. The reality of the situation is that it was a terrible post.
I guess that's a fair argument.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I was never the person who desired to be around men growing up. I always liked being with women and surrounded by mothers. So when I see some hypocritical statements made my feminist I am in disbelief. Granted I never say anything about it, but I understand when women feel like they are being used just because of the way they look. What I do not understand is how these same women think its okay to lust after someone or say things in their point of view and not feel like a complete hypocrite. I'm sorry, but I feel the term feminist describes something completely different in today's culture. Sometimes I want to label feminist as sexist. I'm not hesitant to feel anything different. I completely understand the female struggle in America. As in I understand it just the way I understand the problem segregation had on this country. There just seems like there's no leg room. As the fight for equality will not be fought with debates, but outright criticism to those it belittles.
That alone is why I hope I never have to fight my ex wife for custody. I have anything that may look bad logged down, and she is a good mother, just makes stupid life decisions and she has a job now, but has a tendency to lose them and such, she's more stable now so we shall see. But all that it will still be extremely difficult to get full custody of my daughter because the courts favor the mother more.
As for the OP, I think feminism is annoying. I get they want equal rights, I agree with it, but then they don't want women to be drafted, granted that seems to be changing whether they like it or not. If you want equal rights and equal pay, you have to equally do what men have to do in order to receive it. Plus they seem so damn impatient wanting everything to change overnight when it takes time to get there.
Jzero
Member
I'm serious about liking feminism, i'm just a shitty communicator but whatever i'll leave anyways.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Honestly why should feminists have to worry about other people? If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. That's how it's always been.
The problem with most "men's rights" groups is that they don't really care about men's rights as much as they care about being misogynistic and impeding feminism. If both movements worked together I think we would see much better results.
The draft is one of the reasons that feminism is a great thing. Instead of drafting women, many feminist groups argue for abolishing the American draft altogether. It is in one of the many areas of our life, where when we improve the situation for women, even the situation for men improves.
I don't hate feminism. Some feminists have held their own in arguments with substance and have even made me change their mind. There are also some feminists that I think are huge hypocrites and incredibly arrogant.
it's hard for both groups to work together when there are elements of both groups that spit fire and venom at the very mention of the other group.
it's hard for both groups to work together when there are elements of both groups that spit fire and venom at the very mention of the other group.
Some black people are hypocrites. I don't say that "The only problem i have with black people is when they are massive hypocrites.", because that would imply that black people are more prone to hypocrisy than other races.
I'm curious, who is saying women shouldn't get drafted? Because I'm pretty sure women weren't the ones against it.
And we've been fighting for equality for years, excuse us if we get a little tired of repeating the same thing over and over while fighting the same battle over and over again.
But then you're assuming that it's only men who are perpetuating the idea.
That is incorrect, as some women actually (to my own surprise) perpetuate and encourage these ideas as well.
A more correct comparison would be men AND women complaining about having to pay for dates, yet some men insisting and forcing you to let them pay, and some women insisting that the man has to pay up.
It's not just the fault of men and men alone, and to think otherwise is a bit silly.
Jzero
Member
English is not my first language
I've been living in the U.S. for a while and my English still sucks and prevents me from communicating the way i want.
English is not my first language
I've been living in the U.S. for a while and my English still sucks and prevents me from communicating the way i want.
Okay, fair enough. I didn't mean to pick on you.
I should clarify. Traditional roles which affect equality. Examples? It's preferable for a woman to marry young, favour housework over an education or restrict her choice of professions.
If a woman wants to marry young or become a housewife, she should be the one making that choice and shouldn't feel the pressures from society to be that person. She shouldn't be discouraged to become a lawyer, doctor, scientist, engineer or whatever she wants to be in favour of what society expects of her. There shouldn't be different expectations from her just because of her gender.
Of course, there's more to feminism, but from my understanding and from my experience, that's a major part of what feminism actually is. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I guess. Not sure what you mean by MRA though? Is that a reddit thing?
Steve Youngblood
Member
You can stay if you're being sincere. I'm simply suggesting that in order to not belabor a needless argument that results in page after page of bickering wherein you assume you are being unfairly misrepresented, you need to understand that posting those silly meme pictures is a terrible start to the conversation. I'm not trying to throw my weight around and have you terrified of getting banned, but I will suggest that I raised a very, very skeptical eyebrow in regards to your sincerity as it pertains to discussing feminism.
If that skepticism is misplaced, then carry on. But again, I just suggest that you stop defending that post. You don't have a leg to stand on, there.
CornBurrito
Member
I'd wager no feminists are like those pictures you posted. Not a single one.
blame space
Banned
so are you saying memes are banned?
Other people?
Women I've personally met and known and sometimes argued with. Actually argued many times.
I get that you have been and I fully support with and agree with it. I also feel that sometimes you have your own gender to blame still. Feminists don't like it when women are objectified, but I see and know girls who get objectified all the time and they eat that shit up. And to top it off they've figured out a way to make money off of it and some make double what I make a month! It's ridiculous!
If you all were united on one cause it would speed things up I think. Some non feminists don't like feminists and they make it known.
Devolution
Member
English is not my first language
I've been living in the U.S. for a while and my English still sucks and prevents me from communicating the way i want.
Hypocrisy or letting shit slide is kind of inevitable. There are battles to pick and choose. Most people are feminists in that they agree with the basic tenets but shy away from the label because they've bought the vile rhetoric against feminists hook, line and sinker. I'm currently volunteering for a non-profit and those people couldn't be more nice, welcoming, gracious, understanding and genuinely hospitable. There's no witch hunts or pointing of fingers when someone is new, unaware of a term or we're discussing an event, it's just a calm discussion about how we can better accommodate a certain group. It's probably one of the most inclusive places I've been in.
You're deliberately conflating the choice of objectifying yourself versus being objectified to make a point.
Jzero
Member
You know i didn't even think about the possibility of getting banned, so no, i'm not just saying stuff to not get banned. I mean seriously, why wouldn't someone want equal rights for women? I'll stop defending the original post though.
Edit: okay now i see why people are shitting all over me. In the post i said "they" instead of "some of them".
Pretty much how I feel as well.
A lot of feminist say things I don't agree with, but that's the nature of the game. Writing off the entire movement/philosophy because some of the people who subscribe to it say some off the wall shit doesn't sit well with me. Especially when the main purpose of said movement is for women to be treated well in society, which is a damn fine cause.
I disagree. I think the draft is something we should have and if it were to be abolished then everyone should be required to do a term of service in the military.
The draft was designed to be used in emergency situations and hasn't been used since Vietnam iirc, but it should be there as an emergency backup plan and everyone should be required to sign up.
I bet some self-identified feminists still feel the man should pay, the white feather movement was supported by Suffragettes so feminists did support conscription at one point in time, women almost certainly do objectify men, not quite sure what the equal rights and treated like a lady thing is supposed to prove, as for women fighting on the front line in wars. I don't know of any feminists groups arguing for women to fight at the front line in wars not to say there aren't I just don't know.
Angry Fork
Member
The ones who go ape shit over complimenting a women's looks or particular body part I don't take seriously.
The rest I like and would want to befriend. Feminism has strong historical ties with socialism and I consider them to be part of the same struggle. There have been many feminist socialists that have contributed to Marxist theory and intersectionalism within mass political movements.
It's a shame that some women have now switched towards individual success as the measure of female empowerment/liberation. More and more it seems the case that many women look at someone like Beyonce, Ariana Huffington or that CEO lady at facebook, and say they should try to be that. But imo feminism should be about collectively raising the standards of all women, not just whoever competes for one random powerful position and everyone else stays in a lower class.
The rest I like and would want to befriend. Feminism has strong historical ties with socialism and I consider them to be part of the same struggle. There have been many feminist socialists that have contributed to Marxist theory and intersectionalism within mass political movements.
It's a shame that some women have now switched towards individual success as the measure of female empowerment/liberation. More and more it seems the case that many women look at someone like Beyonce, Ariana Huffington or that CEO lady at facebook, and say they should try to be that. But imo feminism should be about collectively raising the standards of all women, not just whoever competes for one random powerful position and everyone else stays in a lower class.
User 100115
Banned
I am, but I think really any decent human being is. It's about equal rights. Who doesn't want equal rights?
CornBurrito
Member
Yeah I've noticed how interesting it is that people on my Facebook that are derisive about feminism and the movement believe that feminists are at fault for not essentially fighting every battle on the planet for equality. I see it as a symptom of that toxic "if you can't be perfect don't even try" mentality that creeps up in certain threads from time to time.
So i just watched the video and then went and read the blog post that inspired it. First I wanna say that I've heard of Amazing Atheist before and this weird chip he has on his shoulder regarding feminism is just one of many things that made me give up on watching his videos. If he spent half as much time reading up on women's issues as he did "exposing" hypocrite feminists he'd realize how dumb he looks.
Second, if you look at the comments of that blog post you'll see that the woman in question doesn't actually identify as a feminist.
If you're just looking at the jokes that were made then yeah it could seem kinda fucked for her to criticize those guys for their dick jokes, but it's more the context that made that kind of joke less acceptable. We're talking about a generally male dominated environment that's been making strides to be more welcoming to women. You really don't see how that's different from making the same kind of joke on twitter?
Going by the textbook definition? A perfectly understandable, and well-intentioned political movement.
In reality, when practiced by fallible human beings? Something else entirely. The most hypocritical feminists are those up on a soapbox blasting their beliefs at max volume, or otherwise affecting policy. This makes it harder for the even-keeled feminists to be heard, and for people to identify as feminists.
I agree with the goals of the movement, but not many of their firmly held beliefs or actions taken to reach said goal.
In reality, when practiced by fallible human beings? Something else entirely. The most hypocritical feminists are those up on a soapbox blasting their beliefs at max volume, or otherwise affecting policy. This makes it harder for the even-keeled feminists to be heard, and for people to identify as feminists.
I agree with the goals of the movement, but not many of their firmly held beliefs or actions taken to reach said goal.
I don't deny that there's women who perpetuate the idea, that would be silly.
But we have to acknowledge that men are the ones that set those roles and haven't made a very good effort to change it, unlike feminism which is trying to. So while both may perpetuate, men play the bigger part due to their privilege and power.
It means Men's Rights Activist.
Devolution
Member
I have yet to meet a person that follows their ideology to the letter about everything but it becomes quite the strawman or woman for people just looking to be snide and dismissive.
Another problem I have, a woman who's a shithead does not make feminism a double standard. Women like men, can be utter shitheels, who knew.
CornBurrito
Member
It sounds like you are saying that speaking loudly about feminist values, or trying to affect policy is inherently hypocritical. That isn't what you're trying to say is it? Instead you are suggesting that the uppity and/or proactive females are statistically more likely to hold hypocritical beliefs?
Can you qualify "not many" in the last sentence? Like can you give a percentage and a source?
Steve Youngblood
Member
I know you're probably just trying to be cute, here, but no, that's not what I'm getting at. If memes were flat out banned, the poster would have been quietly banned and the discussion would have moved on. Instead, I engaged the behavior because I thought it was detrimental to the conversation, and I wasn't entirely certain that the poster was posting in bad faith.
Anyway, this will be the last of this particular bit of meta-discussion.
Well, like what? Not to pick on you, but it's hard to have a discussion when a lot of posts are really, really vague about who these terrible feminists are or what it is they're advocating.
Recently (like, for more than a year), it seems like anyone who's big into advocating for women's issues or women's rights (in the US) has been all about weird Republican abortion policy at the state level. A lot of this stuff is pursued in ways that are just objectively dishonest or abusive, and there's often a shocking level of ignorance about how women's bodies work. Seems like any time I see a self-identified feminist talking on the TV it's about that sort of thing. And, for the most part, I think they're taking what is at the very least a legitimate position. Where else do you see feminists "blasting their beliefs at max volume" and affecting policy?
- Status