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[gutter_trash]

I'm a chivalrous man, I hold the car door for my girlfriend, I treat her like a lady and she cooks for me, does girly stuff for me and the you know what.

No, I am not a feminist.

I do believe in equal rights, equal pay for equal work. But men and women are not the same

But women do need more protection, we live in a man's world and I believe that local governments should have more crisis centers, aid and overall help to help women who are stuck in shity abusive situations.

 

[Unbounded]

I don't deny that there's women who perpetuate the idea, that would be silly.

But we have to acknowledge that men are the ones that set those roles and haven't made a very good effort to change it, unlike feminism which is trying to.

So... only women can be feminists then...?

So while both may perpetuate, men play the bigger part due to their privilege and power.

I don't understand this line of thinking.

 

[Espada]

It sounds like you are saying that speaking loudly about feminist values, or trying to affect policy is inherently hypocritical. That isn't what you're trying to say is it? Instead you are suggesting that the uppity and/or proactive females are statistically more likely to hold hypocritical beliefs?

Can you qualify "not many" in the last sentence? Like can you give a percentage and a source?

I'm saying the most hypocritical feminists are the ons with the mics in hand or in positions to create/change policy. They're the ones farthest from the dictionary definition of feminism, spouting their own brand of garbage under the feminist label. It's often the assholes of a movement that have the loudest voice, while not being representative.

In terms of policy? NOW and AAUW screwing over much needed shovel-ready programs targeted at men (and for good reason, as they lost the most jobs and needed the most attention). Or their dismissal of boys' dismal school performance (worse than girls during the early 90s, which was addressed ferociously).

 

[AlexMogil]

My thoughts on feminism are: a general topic gets posted nearly every week, people screech at each other with no real understanding of each others' viewpoints, 15 people get banned, and then about a week later someone posts the same thread.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Other people?

Feminists represent women, men are "other people".

I disagree. I think the draft is something we should have and if it were to be abolished then everyone should be required to do a term of service in the military.

The draft was designed to be used in emergency situations and hasn't been used since Vietnam iirc, but it should be there as an emergency backup plan and everyone should be required to sign up.

I'm just happy my country can get by without drafts or mandatory military service. Maybe if you guys avoided going to wars that aren't a question of national security like Vietnam, you wouldn't need them either. In fact I think removing the draft could go a long way in making the US a more peaceful country instead of war mongering all the time because it has a 300 million people army.

 

[Earthstrike]

I'm saying the most hypocritical feminists are the ons with the mics in hand or in positions to create/change policy. They're the ones farthest from the dictionary definition of feminism, spouting their own brand of garbage under the feminist label. It's often the assholes of a movement that have the loudest voice, while not being representative.

In terms of policy? NOW and AAUW screwing over much needed shovel-ready programs targeted at men (and for good reason, as they lost the most jobs and needed the most attention). Or their dismissal of boys' dismal school performance (worse than girls during the early 90s, when it was addressed ferociously).

I'm interested in this. Can you elaborate?

My thoughts on feminism are: a general topic gets posted nearly every week, people screech at each other with no real understanding of each others' viewpoints, 15 people get banned, and then about a week later someone posts the same thread.

It's funny you should say that. Before I made this topic I specifically did a search just on the word feminism and noticed no major threads specifically discussing the issue.

 

[CornBurrito]

I'm a chivalrous man, I hold the car door for my girlfriend, I treat her like a lady and she cooks for me, does girly stuff for me and the you know what.

No, I am not a feminist.

I do believe in equal rights, equal pay for equal work. But men and women are not the same

What about women makes them inherently more suited to cooking, or more in need of a door being held open for them?

 

[Unbounded]

Feminists represent women, men are "other people".

I thought we cleared up at the start of this thread that feminism is about fighting for the equality of the sexes, and not just for women's rights?

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

I thought we cleared up at the start of this thread that feminism is about fighting for the equality of the sexes, and not just for women's rights?

They are fighting for equality by improving the situation for women. The onus is not onto them if there are areas which men need to improve in. You will need your own special interest group for that.

 

[User 100115]

I thought we cleared up at the start of this thread that feminism is about fighting for the equality of the sexes, and not just for women's rights?

It is.

Right now and in the past however, the 'scales' were more heavily slanted toward men, so a lot of people see feminism as an attack on men, simply because of the attempt to level the playing field.

 

[AlexMogil]

It's funny you should say that. Before I made this topic I specifically did a search just on the word feminism and noticed no major threads specifically discussing the issue.

The threads don't start off that way, usually. 😊 This one is just more direct and to the point.

 

[Aomber]

It depends what the scale and context of it is. I went on a date with a girl who I found out was one during the date, and the stuff she said/did just started getting on my nerves.

 

[Espada]

I'm interested in this. Can you elaborate?

The recession hit men especially hard (so hard that it led to it being called something ridiculous like "He-cession"), and Obama proposed a 2 year shovel-ready program that would accomplish two things: Employ many of the men who lost their jobs as a result of the recession, and update/repair aging infrastructure. NOW took serious issue with a program funneling money towards men, with then NOW president Kim Gandy attacking it with things like “testosterone-laden ‘shovel-ready’ terminology.” This led to successful pressure on President Obama to use those funds to help women as well, despite them largely residing in sectors that retained jobs.

There's being devoted to your cause, and then there's actively interfering in efforts to help an ailing group. That's what I mean by the most hypocritical people hogging mic time and affecting policy.

 

[blame space]

everything is a stop-loss operation

 

[lmpaler]

Feminists represent women, men are "other people".



I'm just happy my country can get by without drafts or mandatory military service. Maybe if you guys avoided going to wars that aren't a question of national security like Vietnam, you wouldn't need them either. In fact I think removing the draft could go a long way in making the US a more peaceful country instead of war mongering all the time because it has a 300 million people army.

Well war makes money. And Vietnam is a lot more complicated as to why we got involved than just us being a bunch of war mongers.

Also historically speaking our country is very young and the rest of the world has had a lot more time to have a lot more wars than us. But ours are more condensed in the time line because of the modern era so it seems like we are these war mongering assholes

 

[Unbounded]

They are fighting for equality by improving the situation for women. The onus is not onto them if there are areas which men need to improve in. You will need your own special interest group for that.

If you're claiming that your group is for equal rights for both sexes, then it is completely part of your responsibility to do what you can to make sure both groups have equal rights.

This includes working in areas where both sexes need to be improved in.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

It is.

Right now and in the past however, the 'scales' were more heavily slanted toward men, so a lot of people see feminism as an attack on men, simply because of the attempt to level the playing field.

That's not what I meant. I mean, is it really the feminists' fault if prostate cancer doesn't get funding? Feminism was created for women, because there were and still are areas in which women need to improve. For example the number of single moms is too high, and getting jobs, finding housing or affordable daycare is a problem. Of course this applies to single men too, but most feminists are improving the situation for women, which in turn does improve the situation for men and makes both sexes 'equal'.

There are some areas where men need improvement, such as the underwhelming education statistics for men, but do you think feminists are going to start panicking if men aren't graduating from university in great numbers? No, it is not the responsibility of their special interest group, which mainly looks after women (albeit, it may be a responsibility for them as a member of society).

 

[Alcotholic]

The idea behind it is cool. I support the ideals. But most active feminists are complete idiots.

 

[Unbounded]

That's not what I meant. I mean, is it really the feminists' fault if prostate cancer doesn't get funding? Feminism was created for women, because there were and still are areas in which women need to improve. For example the number of single moms is too high, and getting jobs, finding housing or affordable daycare is a problem. Of course this applies to single men too, but most feminists are improving the situation for women, which in turn does improve the situation for men and makes both sexes 'equal'.

There are some areas where men need improvement, such as the underwhelming education statistics for men, but do you think feminists are going to start panicking if men aren't graduating from university in great numbers? No, it is not the responsibility of their special interest group, which mainly looks after women (albeit, it may be a responsibility for them as a member of society).

Please explain to me how not trying to get funding for prostate cancer, trying to help single mothers get jobs, or focusing on women's education exclusively while ignoring men's helps men in the slightest.

 

[Devolution]

The idea behind it is cool. I support the ideals. But most active feminists are complete idiots.

So people in volunteer groups, marching and protesting for reproductive rights, equal pay, and other areas in which women are unequal are complete idiots?

 

[Vermillion]

I agree with most if not all of the ideology of feminism. I do not identify as a feminist, however.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Well war makes money. And Vietnam is a lot more complicated as to why we got involved than just us being a bunch of war mongers.

Also historically speaking our country is very young and the rest of the world has had a lot more time to have a lot more wars than us. But ours are more condensed in the time line because of the modern era so it seems like we are these war mongering assholes

Well Canada is about 100 years younger than you and we don't need a draft. India and China are also almost 250 years younger than you as sovereign nations and also do not have drafts.

Anyway, this is slightly off topic. I personally think it's admirable that feminists fight for abolition of the draft, which would end up affecting (if you don't agree with word 'benefiting') both sexes. It would make the sexes more equal.

If you're claiming that your group is for equal rights for both sexes, then it is completely part of your responsibility to do what you can to make sure both groups have equal rights.

This includes working in areas where both sexes need to be improved in.

That's just not how it works. Feminists can call for equal rights for everyone under the sun but that would reduce the laser-eye focused impact that made it so successful. You have to pick battles and you have to win them one by one.

 

[gutter_trash]

we are looking at this too much from a Western point of view.

Truth of the matter is that many women are still treated like shit around the world and do not have equal rights or equal opportunities as men.

The least we can do in the west is ''equal pay for equal work'' as a starting point

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Please explain to me how not trying to get funding for prostate cancer, trying to help single mothers get jobs, or focusing on women's education exclusively while ignoring men's helps men in the slightest.

Getting help for single parents to find jobs does indeed improve the situation for men. Focusing on women's education and improving women's graduation rates improves society by making it more educated. Feminists groups didn't go out of their way to hamper prostate cancer funding, I think you missed the point when I mentioned that.

For example, in Canada women fought hard for maternity rights. In the end we got one of the world's most generous maternity/paternity systems. 35 weeks of shared offtime between the father and the mother after the baby is born or adopted, it was something FEMINISTS fought for and had a lot of mostly male capitalist opposition. It benefited both sexes in the end.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

So many of these posts are about straw feminists. Like you've made your own boogeywomen so that you don't have to actually consider new ideas and thoughts.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

The idea behind it is cool. I support the ideals. But most active feminists are complete idiots.

Do you care to elaborate on what you mean by "active feminists," here?

 

[Unbounded]

That's just not how it works. Feminists can call for equal rights for everyone under the sun but that would reduce the laser-eye focused impact that made it so successful. You have to pick battles and you have to win them one by one.

So then that would mean that feminism isn't really for equality between the sexes, but is instead for the improvement of the female state until the perceived state of women is equal to that of the perceived state of men.

I mean, if the movement claims to be for equality of the sexes but refuses to pay attention to one of the sexes because it would make the movement less effective, I feel that its definition isn't accurate then. Don't you?

Getting help for single parents to find jobs does indeed improve the situation for men.

Yeah, getting help for single parents helps men because they're included within that subset, but my question was on how helping single mothers helps men.

Focusing on women's education and improving women's graduation rates improves society by making it more educated.

Tell that to the declining graduation rates for men.

Feminists groups didn't go out of their way to hamper prostate cancer funding, I think you missed the point when I mentioned that.

You missed my point in how not supporting prostate cancer funding doesn't help men at all.

For example, in Canada women fought hard for maternity rights. In the end we got one of the world's most generous maternity/paternity systems. 35 weeks of shared offtime between the father and the mother after the baby is born or adopted, it was something FEMINISTS fought for and had a lot of mostly male capitalist opposition. It benefited both sexes in the end.

Okay, if in the end it benefits both sexes in the end, why in the hell would you only focus on one sex when presenting the issue?

 

[Wazzy]

So... only women can be feminists then...?

I'm not sure why you took it that way but I'll rephrase it. Men aren't making a good effort to change whereas the ideology of feminism is trying to make them,

I don't understand this line of thinking.

Any particular reason why?

Women I've personally met and known and sometimes argued with. Actually argued many times.

I get that you have been and I fully support with and agree with it. I also feel that sometimes you have your own gender to blame still. Feminists don't like it when women are objectified, but I see and know girls who get objectified all the time and they eat that shit up. And to top it off they've figured out a way to make money off of it and some make double what I make a month! It's ridiculous!

I don't see how that suddenly means all women are against it. Let's not pretend the reason women aren't drafted is because we don't want to be but actually because society doesn't want us to be due to traditional views of what a women should be.

There's such huge differences between a man being objectified compared to a women that it's a little silly to compare them. They aren't equal and never have been.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

It's necessary, regardless of whether it's misguided or not. Reactionary politics to feminism are sexist on their own right. Patriarchy makes mistakes that go largely uncontested/uncriticized. Especially from a gender perspective. Yet a gender perspective is largely held against feminism that tread into the same ridiculous paths that patriarchy does.

Second Wave feminism finally gave way to the less bourgeois, less caucasian, less middle class, less Neo Liberal and less American Third Wave of feminism. Sadly, with the commodification of emerging Second World peoples, the bourgeois and Neo Liberal elements of Feminism are starting to snake their way back into, and subsequently fragment, women's liberation movements.

This is essentially why I support but deeply criticize groups like Femen. They provide much needed ammunition and garner attention to the movements, but often their reaction to non Femen, non caucasian/non Neo Liberal feminist movements take on a very bourgeois and chauvinistic (i.e. racist) character that must be rooted out for women to ever succeed.

IMO, feminism requires a non Liberal perspective to succeed.

 

[Alcotholic]

Do you care to elaborate on what you mean by "active feminists," here?

My apologies. I meant feminist extremists. It's late and I'm tired.

 

[Broder Salsa]

Kotaku has educated me well on this subject, I am thankful to them.

 

[Fahrenheit]

I full heartily agree that men and women should be treated as equals. With that said the recent explosion of "feminists" in video game/geek culture are just about the worse group of people I ever had the displeasure of dealing with. And about 95% of the real hard to deal with ones are male. I've seen more then a few guys talk shit on MK about how the women are dressed in that game. I mean come the fuck on.



Also kinda a shift in my point but I feel a real certain kind of way about these "feminists" on twitch playing games with there tits hanging out taking donations yet if anyone in the chat comments about her tits hanging out all the white knights jump in and defend her. Ughhhh

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

So then that would mean that feminism isn't really for equality between the sexes, but is instead for the improvement of the female state until the perceived state of women is equal to that of the perceived state of men.

I mean, if the movement claims to be for equality of the sexes but refuses to pay attention to one of the sexes because it would make the movement less effective, I feel that its definition isn't accurate then. Don't you?

Ideally I would agree with you, but in reality you have to be realistic, about being practical and delivering results. The idea behind special interest groups like feminism is to be very focused on a single issue and rally people behind it. They can take every equality issue under the sun, under their umbrella, but it would reduce the effectiveness of their ability to actually get REAL results.

It's like the National Rifle Association. They probably could not give a damn if the government restricts your knife rights. However they strongly advocate for gun rights and they have become super successful in doing so. They got real results in an area of life they wanted to see improvement in.

Yeah, getting help for single parents helps men because they're included within that subset, but my question was on how helping single mothers helps men.

Single mothers have trouble finding affordable daycare. What feminists have proposed is universal daycare, which guarantees daycare to all parents. Other feminist groups have advocated for reserved seats in daycare for single parents. Both ideas improve the situation for both men and women.

The same implies for both jobs and housing, since single parents receive a lot of discrimination when applying for both. Feminists through their strong organizational skills (which men's rights group seem to be lacking), have advocated for strong improvements in these areas.

Tell that to the declining graduation rates for men.

Declining? Do you have proof for this? As far as I know the gap is increasing, but the graduation rate for men is not decreasing. The rate for men is indeed really low for a 2013 figure. Men's rights groups should organize to increase that instead of kicking and screaming about too many women in universities.

You missed my point in how not supporting prostate cancer funding doesn't help men at all.

Feminists don't have to advocate for prostate cancer funding. I'm not the one who said that feminists alone should be entrusted to fight equality for everyone.

Okay, if in the end it benefits both sexes in the end, why in the hell would you only focus on one sex when presenting the issue?

Because focusing on one thing at a time makes it more effective. Do you not see why?

 

[Timedog]

I identify as feminist. I also noticed that most of the people in this thread who are anti-feminist cannot even articulate why they are. I find this funny, but not unexpected.

 

[Unbounded]

I'm not sure why you took it that way but I'll rephrase it. Men aren't making a good effort to change whereas the ideology of feminism is trying to make them,

Uh, how in the heck aren't men making a "good effort"? According to you they shouldn't try to work with the feminist movement in order to fight for their own rights, but then according to others, the men's rights movement is a complete joke and completely unnecessary considering that feminism exists.

Any particular reason why?

If men played as big a role as you thought they did, then I'm pretty sure we'd already be done with said male issues.

Also, your stance assumes that your average male has much more power and influence than your average female, which seems to be a completely counterproductive and contradictory approach that seeks to ignore male issues on the basis that "they should be taking care of themselves".

 

[Devolution]

Uh, how in the heck aren't men making a "good effort"? According to you they shouldn't try to work with the feminist movement in order to fight for their own rights, but then according to others, the men's rights movement is a complete joke and completely unnecessary considering that feminism exists.



If men played as big a role as you thought they did, then I'm pretty sure we'd already be done with said male issues.

Also, your stance assumes that your average male has much more power and influence than your average female, which seems to be a completely counterproductive and contradictory approach that seeks to ignore male issues on the basis that "they should be taking care of themselves".

Why do these threads always turn into "what has feminism done for men lately"? The irony kills me each and every time.

 

[freenudemacusers]

This has me thinking, you know how gays are getting marriage rights and stuff lately, where are the extra perks for straight people? I thought the goal was equality.

Now don't get me wrong I'm cool with the gays and stuff, but this all just seems a little one-sided.

 

[Vermillion]

Why do these threads always turn into "what has feminism done for men lately"? The irony kills me each and every time.

I should add that Mumei had a topic up about male-on-male sexual assault in the military, and I don't think that made it past page two.

 

[Devolution]

I should add that Mumei had a topic up about male-on-male sexual assault in the military, and I don't think that made it past page two.

No boogeywomen to fight in that scenario.

 

[GillianSeed79]

I'll put it this way. The way I look at feminism is women asserting their right to be treated equally and not looked upon as second-class citizens who make unequal pay. Where I often err is going overboard to the point where I look stupid because the way I was raised, even though I'm only in my early 30s, was that women were, for all intents and purposes, second-class citizens.

I'm the youngest of five - two older brothers and two older sisters - and my dad was born in 1940. I was LTTP, but you know what's sad? I didn't even know how to do a load of laundry until I was a freshman in college. I still don't know how to cook. That sounds extremely sexist, but I grew up in a family wherein mom, outside of raising kids, was looked upon by the males in the family as the woman who washed our clothes everyday and cooked everday.

You know what would have been awesome dad? Instead of trying to make me suffer through watching baseball or learning the rules of football, it would have been awesome if I learned how to fucking cook. Would be fucking awesome. Would make my life much easier right now.

Shit, even that sounds extremely sexist. The thing is both my sisters - one is extremely smart and a financial analyst that makes way more money that I could ever dream making and the other is an art teacher that lives in a McMansion - do not put up with his bullshit and will verbally check his old ass.

They have their own families now and live in different states and have children of their own. God fucking bless them, because those kids won't grow up like I did.

I live near my folks and don't have a washer and dryer, so I do my laundry there once a week. The amount of dismissiveness and subtle verbal abuse to my mom from my dad is astounding. There are times when I want to scream why the fuck did you marry this man and have five kids. There are literally moments at the kitchen table or at a restaurant where she will literally be cursing him under her lips in front of his fucking face.

No wonder she was a drunk mostly through my high school years.

I've come to the conclusion that my entire family life has been completely dysfunctional from the start.

 

[ABC]

The idea is good, but there are to many double standards and way to many feminists out there that scream and bitch about absolutly nothing.

 

[GamerJM]

I mostly support feminism, but I don't identify with it because I personally don't care that much about most of the issues it presents nor do I like the idea of singling myself out as one. I also think that a lot of the radical modern age feminists on Tumblr are crazy, but I realize that's a small portion of the larger group of people who consider themselves feminists.

 

[freenudemacusers]

The idea is good, but there are to many double standards and way to many feminists out there that scream and bitch about absolutly nothing.

I would like examples of the screaming and bitching about nothing.

 

[Devolution]

The idea is good, but there are to many double standards and way to many feminists out there that scream and bitch about absolutly nothing.

No specifics again, just broad ass strokes, cool.

 

[Unbounded]

Ideally I would agree with you, but in reality you have to be realistic, about being practical and delivering results. The idea behind special interest groups like feminism is to be very focused on a single issue and rally people behind it. They can take every equality issue under the sun, under their umbrella, but it would reduce the effectiveness of their ability to actually get REAL results.

I understand that, but I find it completely unfair to say that feminism is for the equality of the sexes, and then in the next breath to say "Oh, we can't work for the rights of this particular subset of people ever because it'd make our movement less effective." In that case you're basically saying you WOULD be completely for equality, but you don't really have time for that.

Men's rights groups should organize to increase that instead of kicking and screaming about too many women in universities.

But feminists can't because it'd make their movement ineffective?

(And yes, I was referring to the gap widening.)

Feminists don't have to advocate for prostate cancer funding. I'm not the one who said that feminists alone should be entrusted to fight equality for everyone.

Then we should really just stop saying that feminism is for the equality of the sexes and is instead for the betterment of women.

Because focusing on one thing at a time makes it more effective. Do you not see why?

If a movement can't focus on everything in reality, advocates of the movement should stop pretending that it can. (and will.)

Why do these threads always turn into "what has feminism done for men lately"? The irony kills me each and every time.

On one end we have people claiming that feminism is for the equality of the sexes, and on the other we have people saying that men's issues aren't feminism's problem.

Is it really so hard to understand how such a contradiction could potentially lead to this argument Devo?

 

[Devolution]

On one end we have people claiming that feminism is for the equality of the sexes, and on the other we have people saying that men's issues aren't feminism's problem.

Is it really so hard to understand how such a contradiction could potentially lead to this argument Devo?

It is for equality of the sexes, how it prioritizes what it fights for is you getting in a semantic fight about nothing.

 

[Fahrenheit]

I would like examples of the screaming and bitching about nothing.

No specifics again, just broad ass strokes, cool.

Feminists say that man are pigs when they want to bang every chick the meet, but women that do the same for men its them being forward about there sexual wants.

It's sexist and oppressive to have an all-male institution like the Citadel, but women's colleges are just fine because "women learn better" when there aren't any men around.

Also could go on about how women completely fuck men in divorce court but I don't wanna get to mad, doc says i need to keep my BP down

 

[freenudemacusers]

Feminists say that man are pigs when they want to bang every chick the meet, but women that do the same for men its them being forward about there sexual wants.

It's sexist and oppressive to have an all-male institution like the Citadel, but women's colleges are just fine because "women learn better" when there aren't any men around.

These are pretty good examples of non-examples.

 

[Devolution]

These are pretty good examples of non-examples.

 

[jtb]

I used to be ambivalent about feminism but I find people that bitch about feminism irritating enough that I guess I've become a feminist myself. whatever, liberalism for all.