Chairman Tickles
Banned
This has been happening for decades, and all throughout Obama's tenure. Why is it an issue now? A wall would stop it from happening.
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Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
What are your thoughts on the Humanitarian Crisis at the Border?
- Thread starter xStoyax
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For the millionth time this has absolutely not been happening for decades. Previous administrations did not separate families.
Papa
Banned
Yep, because I've seen one post calling them third world refuse (which I disagree with, btw, and another poster called him out on it) that you're using to justify saying this place is "crawling with similar minded people and sentiments". Your perpetually angry schtick is tiring and counter-productive. I might be persuaded to agree with you if you weren't constantly being condescending and. Talking. Like. This. Because. It's. Your. Way. Or. The. Highway.
rokkerkory
Member
This is the new face of the GOP who used to be friendly to immigrants back in the 70-90s. Not letting in illegal immigrants is one thing but separating children from their families and not telling them when n how they will be re-united is just. disgusting. On top of that, using jesus' name to justify it too. Smh
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
There's a general sentiment of "well the parents are just getting what they deserve". If you aren't seeing that all over these several threads, I don't know what to tell you.
In terms of the more hyperbolic bit (2nd half of that sentence that triggered this side discussion), we already had someone in here literally call them garbage. In another thread, someone said: "These people have no value and nor do their children." (not going to quote that person or call them out specifically because I don't find that to be a productive response -- the only reason I mention it at all is because you asked directly)
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Papa
Banned
That's your interpretation of what they're saying. Mine is that they are saying the parents bear some responsibility if they cross the border illegally knowing that there's a chance they could be imprisoned and lose their kids. It's not saying "they got what they deserve"; rather, they share some responsibility if they choose to break the law. Not saying this is necessarily my position but that's my interpretation of what is being said.
Chairman Tickles
Banned
As a once-upon-a-time legitimate war refugee myself, I find it hard to compute the love for illegal immigration and the simultaneous disdain for legitimate border controls. If they are in dire straights or in genuine migratory mood for make benefit better life for their children; they will go through the process and come legally. Many do. We managed to do it while rocket artillery was raining on our heads. Should be considerably easier by way of Mexico. These people are taking away resources from refugees in legitimate need of a safe haven. Mass illegal economic migration should be treated harshly. It hurts the domestic population; it hurts economic migrants on the waiting list and it hurts migrants who need to escape terrible situations ASAP.
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But it's not his interpretation of what they're saying. It's literally verbatim what they are saying. I don't understand how you were taking something that's not being paraphrased and then softening it up to say something completely different. People aren't saying that the parents deserve some responsibility people are literally saying they are garbage and deserve no sympathy.
Well you seem to be completely unwilling to read any of the accounts of the victims of this. So I don't know what to tell you. If you really can't understand the outrage, put in a little effort and read about how people are being stranded at border crossings without food or water and then arrested as they desperately swim across the river after three days. Read about parents who are being tricked into giving up their children for "baths" only never see them again.
Papa
Banned
One person called them third world refuse and was called out for it. If it's verbatim, it should be very easy for you to paste the quotes here for me to see. Otherwise, you can go on stamping your feet like Veruca Salt.
Chairman Tickles
Banned
Been there done that. Attempt to take a shortcut, get burned. I had to hide in truck tyres with my mother and crawl past a minefield to sneak into Croatia from Bosnia past machine gun posts. In the end they caught us on the side of the road and sent us back. Lucky the border guard that saw us took pity, nothing stopped him from putting bullets in our skulls. We did it because my dad was allowed past the checkpoint (he had Croatian citizenship) but his wife/my mom was Serbian and I was born in Bosnia. So they separated us. In the end we just had to bide our time and do it legit-waiting for dad to get the paperwork.
Cheap rewards come at great risk. Take shortcuts and accept the risk.
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Awesome. Well we're not used to this type of brutish third world bullshit. So glad that you're spreading your compassion for children and humanity with the life that you were spared.
Chairman Tickles
Banned
You missed my point. No need for anybody to spare us, if he had just bunkered down and not taken a stupid risk. When you go out of your way to get into a dangerous situation, you take on the liability for the ensuing risks to you.
And this isn't a romantic poem or novel. Compassion has surprisingly little to do with the realities of war, although films and media like to emphasize this and other rare fantastical elements for dramatic effect.
If you're trully compassionate, you will enforce border controls and only allow those who truly need help or who truly want to be Americans on board, so that you shoulder the burden of people who want to be there for all the right reasons.
But I agree, separating kids from their parents is fundamentally wrong whatever the scenario. However some or most of the responsibility falls on the parents.
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Vicetrailia
Banned
That's cool and all, but this situation is a policy issue, not war. I'm sure many of these people went through something similar to get out of their country. But alas we aren't focused on that, we don't like zero tolerance policy.
eclipze
Member
So you haven't assimilated American values yet. That's cool. It can take longer for some people compared to others. Don't worry, though, compassion for other humans will kick in at some point.
Chairman Tickles
Banned
A zero tolerance policy one way or another is one in which the border is either 100% closed, or 100% open. We're discussing the nuances of something in-between based on a set of controls that would lead to a better mass immigration policy; i.e a more controlled one. Even with a wall, millions of mexicans will be crossing the border every year. You'll just know who they are and why they're coming and going.
I'm Australian and I have assimilated 100%. Also a settler/migrant nation, and I fully support legal mass immigration. It is very hard to believe that the majority of Americans support illegal immigration, as you suggest. I know the vast majority of Australians do not. I don't think that compassion and illegal border crossings are intrinsically one and the same or even linked. I think it is reckless and potentially dangerous for everybody involved-as suggested by my personal story. Especially dangerous in Australia; as we are so isolated and underpopulated, a boat sinks or a stray bunch of castaways end up in northern Australia and it can be days or weeks before anybody finds them. I wouldn't want families to contend with crocodiles and lack of fresh water.
I'm Australian and I have assimilated 100%. Also a settler/migrant nation, and I fully support legal mass immigration. It is very hard to believe that the majority of Americans support illegal immigration, as you suggest. I know the vast majority of Australians do not. I don't think that compassion and illegal border crossings are intrinsically one and the same or even linked. I think it is reckless and potentially dangerous for everybody involved-as suggested by my personal story. Especially dangerous in Australia; as we are so isolated and underpopulated, a boat sinks or a stray bunch of castaways end up in northern Australia and it can be days or weeks before anybody finds them. I wouldn't want families to contend with crocodiles and lack of fresh water.
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<+)O Robido O(+>
Member
If you can't be persuaded by facts because of tone, what use are you? Why do you need to be hand-holded to recognize the truth? If an insider tells you ABC why would you believe the outsider who says XYZ? Could it be because XYZ confirms your bias?
Why can't you be condescending to dumbasses who feign to want to align with the truth but only seek to confirm their bias? It's not like it isn't obvious where you stand on an issue after reading a few of your posts.
Vicetrailia
Banned
People will get around the wall, and Jeff Sessions own zero tolerance description is apt.
Anyway, talk is cheap now, it's action time according to things happening around the U.S.
Anyway, talk is cheap now, it's action time according to things happening around the U.S.
Papa
Banned
Oh, it's you again. Haha.
Chairman Tickles
Banned
One observation if I may;
There is no Humanitarian Crisis in Mexico (sure, a few cartel shootings on a daily basis, just another day in Chicago I guess) and no Humanitarian crisis in the US. And the border is open, thousands cross in both directions legally every day.
So how can there be a humanitarian crisis on the border between the US and Mexico? Seems forced/manufactured. Unnatural. Agenda driven. Smells like bullshit.
And if this kid caging is a knew phenomenon, why are there pictures of children in cages during Obama's presidency? Help me probe and understand all the things.
There is no Humanitarian Crisis in Mexico (sure, a few cartel shootings on a daily basis, just another day in Chicago I guess) and no Humanitarian crisis in the US. And the border is open, thousands cross in both directions legally every day.
So how can there be a humanitarian crisis on the border between the US and Mexico? Seems forced/manufactured. Unnatural. Agenda driven. Smells like bullshit.
And if this kid caging is a knew phenomenon, why are there pictures of children in cages during Obama's presidency? Help me probe and understand all the things.
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<+)O Robido O(+>
Member
I knew it was pointless to reply to you. But I did it anyway. I won'r make that mistake again.
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Papa
Banned
Why? Because I don't give any credence to what you have to say after you made it clear the other day that your stance on migration is about revenge for perceived historical sins of the fathers?
My offer to G gohepcat still stands: quote the posts you are basing your accusations on or quit stamping your feet like a spoiled brat.
Cato
Banned
I think you are quite out of line here and should sit down and relax a little.
You are literally dismissing a real refugee and his story fleeing from a war zone as bullshit and being incredibly disrespectful and snarky.
Edit: You are seriously telling a survivor fleeing from a war zone that his experience is "third world bullshit" while at the same time lash out against others for "lack of compassion" ?
Please sit down and calm yourself you are too much in affect to make good posts right now.
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TheLaughingStock
Member
Taking Migrant Children From Parents Is Illegal, U.N. Tells U.S.
Obviously, it's not news that the US violates human rights and does what it wants.
But in terms of your question of why would the parents risk their child...there shouldn't be any legal risk.
Quite a few are seeking asylum. Moreover, even if that wasn't the case, the reason why you don't prosecute everybody/refer them for prosecution is because there isn't enough space to detain them, not enough time in a day to resolve what to do with them in court, and its expensive. There was no reason for migrant parents to expect the US to detain asylum seekers or round up all the illegal immigrants.
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chaos789
Banned
Some of the comments here about this issue with children being taken away from their parents is disgusting. It is inhumane and lacks empathy to not be sympathetic to their plight.
I do notice around social media that no one is bringing up the history of U.S. involvement in Latin America and how it bares some responsibility for the current conditions of those nations. Previous administrations since the end of WW2, have been involved in campaigns that generally have made conditions worse in Central America. This includes U.S. involvement in Honduras, Guatemala , and El Salvador. In 1979, a military coup was attempted which resulted in Civil War in El Salvador. The coup attempt was backed by the C.I.A. , the violence eventually reached a high point after Archbishop Oscar Romero was assassinated while giving mass in 1980. The murder which was conducted by Major Roberto D' Aubuisson, who just so happened to be a graduate of D.C's International Police Academy. In the 1980's the Reagan administration backed this repressive regime in El Salvador , which resulted in death squads and massacres of the people of El Salvador. The U.S. spent 6 billion dollars in aid, which 70% went to weapons and war assistance. The U.S. also failed to stop another coup in 2009, which overthrew a democratically elected president and further destabilized the country.
I do not currently have the time to give the entire history of the United States backing and funding of repressive regime's in Latin America. But it echoes through both Republican and Democratic Administrations. Whether its U.S. involvement in Guatemala which dates all the way back to the 1950's. Which involved the United Fruit Company and the C.I.A and its coup against democratically elected Jacob Abrenz Guzman. Both Allen Dulles and John Foster Dulles were partners in United Fruit Company. Of course U.S. involvement with Nicaragua, and its backing of the Contra's which lead to the deaths of thousands. Or the U.S invasion of Panama in 1989, to overthrow Manual Noriega, a one time C.I.A. asset. The invasion of Panama was covered in the documentary " The Panama Deception".
It would take a long time to detail all of America's dirty history with Central and South America. But just wanted to bring up why the conditions there are the way they are now and how the United States bares a large amount of responsibility. Supplanting democratically elected governments for puppet dictatorships that support American transnational and multi-national corporate interest at the expense of the indigenous peoples of those nations is why the conditions their are so poor and why the people of those nations flee in hopes of finding something better for themselves and their children.
I do notice around social media that no one is bringing up the history of U.S. involvement in Latin America and how it bares some responsibility for the current conditions of those nations. Previous administrations since the end of WW2, have been involved in campaigns that generally have made conditions worse in Central America. This includes U.S. involvement in Honduras, Guatemala , and El Salvador. In 1979, a military coup was attempted which resulted in Civil War in El Salvador. The coup attempt was backed by the C.I.A. , the violence eventually reached a high point after Archbishop Oscar Romero was assassinated while giving mass in 1980. The murder which was conducted by Major Roberto D' Aubuisson, who just so happened to be a graduate of D.C's International Police Academy. In the 1980's the Reagan administration backed this repressive regime in El Salvador , which resulted in death squads and massacres of the people of El Salvador. The U.S. spent 6 billion dollars in aid, which 70% went to weapons and war assistance. The U.S. also failed to stop another coup in 2009, which overthrew a democratically elected president and further destabilized the country.
I do not currently have the time to give the entire history of the United States backing and funding of repressive regime's in Latin America. But it echoes through both Republican and Democratic Administrations. Whether its U.S. involvement in Guatemala which dates all the way back to the 1950's. Which involved the United Fruit Company and the C.I.A and its coup against democratically elected Jacob Abrenz Guzman. Both Allen Dulles and John Foster Dulles were partners in United Fruit Company. Of course U.S. involvement with Nicaragua, and its backing of the Contra's which lead to the deaths of thousands. Or the U.S invasion of Panama in 1989, to overthrow Manual Noriega, a one time C.I.A. asset. The invasion of Panama was covered in the documentary " The Panama Deception".
It would take a long time to detail all of America's dirty history with Central and South America. But just wanted to bring up why the conditions there are the way they are now and how the United States bares a large amount of responsibility. Supplanting democratically elected governments for puppet dictatorships that support American transnational and multi-national corporate interest at the expense of the indigenous peoples of those nations is why the conditions their are so poor and why the people of those nations flee in hopes of finding something better for themselves and their children.
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D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
And if this kid caging is a knew phenomenon, why are there pictures of children in cages during Obama's presidency? Help me probe and understand all the things.
Do you actually care? It's extremely obvious what the difference is. Any kids in cages before, while shitty, was a result of unaccompanied minors being held for deportation (usually to identify who they are). What's happening now is that families are being apprehended together, and the authorities are separating the children (sometimes not even 1 year old) from their parents and siblings and holding them separately from each other. There is no reason to do this other than to inflict pain and suffering.
The United States should act humanely toward refugees.
The United States should not have porous borders, or be embarrassed or shamed into not enforcing its laws. The United States is not Mexico and Central America's safety valve, nor should it be.
Mexico and Central America have long ignored their myriad social, economic, and political shortcomings. There's no need for these countries to do so because people who might be inclined to agitate for real change are also inclined to flee for greener pastures. And we decry exploitation, but it occurs all the time in our neighbors to the south. And then it's perpetuated with the refugees into this country being mistreated because they enter as a cog in an economic system that's all too happy to mistreat a powerless, largely interchangeable, untrained work force.
We wouldn't go two seconds without whinging if we feel someone's taking advantage of us. But we really don't care about sweatshops, migrant farmers, poor living/working conditions, etc. because we get cheap labor.
The United States should not have porous borders, or be embarrassed or shamed into not enforcing its laws. The United States is not Mexico and Central America's safety valve, nor should it be.
Mexico and Central America have long ignored their myriad social, economic, and political shortcomings. There's no need for these countries to do so because people who might be inclined to agitate for real change are also inclined to flee for greener pastures. And we decry exploitation, but it occurs all the time in our neighbors to the south. And then it's perpetuated with the refugees into this country being mistreated because they enter as a cog in an economic system that's all too happy to mistreat a powerless, largely interchangeable, untrained work force.
We wouldn't go two seconds without whinging if we feel someone's taking advantage of us. But we really don't care about sweatshops, migrant farmers, poor living/working conditions, etc. because we get cheap labor.
Hari Seldon
Member
I saw this too, this is ridiculous. The Dems in congress are using this 100% as a political tool and don't give a fuck about the immigrants at the border.
Cato
Banned
There you have it. To the democraic party is is more important to make Trump look bad than it is to stop this suffering.
These people are just tokens in a poker game. No politician cares about them.
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
I mean I guess if you pretend this doesn't exist earlier and the Republicans refused to entertain it:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...enate-democrats-republicans-family-separation
So which one has more strings attached?
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Cato
Banned
So funny.
That was then and now is now.
You realize that the way to solve this is that Republicans and Democrats in the Senate need to meet and come to an agreement to solve the issue once and for all?
Right? That is the only real and proper way to solve it.
I don't see any criticism in your post for Schumer playng political games with these children as currency.
So do you think it is a good thing he refuses to even discuss finding a legislative way to end this in the Senate?
I am sad but I think there is a lot of people that DON'T want this to not be fixed soon, so that they can keep hating on Trump.
That is very crass political gamesmanship.
LOL. And it is not a very humane way to act if you claim to care for these children. :-D
Hari Seldon
Member
What I read for the reason for this new policy is that basically they are trying to discourage central/south american immigrants from bringing their children from all the way through Mexico to the border, which is potentially dangerous due to having to deal with shady smugglers. I guess the way the mess of law and policy is currently setup is that if you come to the border with children, the children are not allowed to be incarcerated with the parents. But since the parents are trying to get asylum status the process of booting them out is not quick. So instead of letting them in while the asylum thing goes through (which is the way it was done in the past) Trump is calling the bluff and incarcerating them and by law the children cannot be with the parents. By letting them in with the children you are basically encouraging people to bring their children (or kidnap children) as a free ticket to get in which is seen as dangerous to the children.
I don't know how true this is but it makes sense that Congress needs to fix this since the President is stuck between encouraging smugglers to bring children or taking the children away which are both shit options.
I don't know how true this is but it makes sense that Congress needs to fix this since the President is stuck between encouraging smugglers to bring children or taking the children away which are both shit options.
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
Right. So Republicans had a couple of weeks to agree to (what looks like, I admittedly haven't read the actual draft of the proposal) a no-strings-attached piece of legislation that would end separation of children from their families at the border, full stop. They ignored it.
Now they've produced their own version, which includes some demands. And somehow the Democrats are the bad guys here for not throwing their version away and agreeing with the newer one?
What part of the original proposed legislation is a "political game"?
He already tried that, and the Republicans refused to discuss it.
If that article I posted is factually incorrect, then I do welcome you to point that out to me. As I said, I'm not deeply researched on this topic.
EverydayBeast
ChatShitGPT Alpha 0.001
A complete mess. How do you have millions of immigrants enter Ellis island in the 1800s and fumble this shit down south in 2018.
Chairman Tickles
Banned
Weak. I match 3 kids. I bet that photo will be doing the rounds across the mainstream media. Cute kid crying alert.
This is why I reserve my tears for now. The full story is not being presented.
Ever seen gangs of new york? It was a different time, standards were much lower. Open warfare in the streets and migrants being ushered from ship to polling booth by corrupt policemen was deemed normal then. The Italian mafia controlled parts of the immigration apparatus.
Just to correct you, Yugoslavia was not third world. It was a fully industrialized country that manufactured everything from jet aircraft to computers. We lived in a normal house in the 1980's for the time, with a Sega Master system, a knock off Commodore 64, a microwave, two cars, etc. Both my parents were highly educated at university level and we had really good free healthcare. This was 90% of the population.
This is why I reserve my tears for now. The full story is not being presented.
Ever seen gangs of new york? It was a different time, standards were much lower. Open warfare in the streets and migrants being ushered from ship to polling booth by corrupt policemen was deemed normal then. The Italian mafia controlled parts of the immigration apparatus.
Just to correct you, Yugoslavia was not third world. It was a fully industrialized country that manufactured everything from jet aircraft to computers. We lived in a normal house in the 1980's for the time, with a Sega Master system, a knock off Commodore 64, a microwave, two cars, etc. Both my parents were highly educated at university level and we had really good free healthcare. This was 90% of the population.
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Platinumstorm
Member
Not worth discussing here because people are playing the partisan games.
I will say that I work in a conservative population clinic. I had patients ask me today on my opinion on the crisis, and whether or not it is real. I directed them to the AG's statements.
I will say that I work in a conservative population clinic. I had patients ask me today on my opinion on the crisis, and whether or not it is real. I directed them to the AG's statements.
hollams
Gold Member
How many years have our immigration laws needed to be fixed and nothing has been done? Why is this the case? It's all politics, both sides use this and other issues to drum up support or bash the other side and nothing gets fixed, we keep having the same issues come up over and over. That is why I voted for Trump because I was tired of all these life long politicians who every day claim they care about us, not make the tough decisions that need to be made to keep our Nation the best Nation in the world. I wanted someone in there to shake things up and just see if that would help get some of these important issues worked on.
Nobody on earth, except maybe the Drug Cartels, want to see kids separated from their parents. The laws that allowed this to happen have been on the books since 1996, but they were never enforced until recently, which shows this should have been fixed long ago. So it's sad to see this happen to families, but maybe this will result in some legislation fixing the bad immigration laws we have now.
We need actions and not words from our elected officials, but I'm not sure in this climate that actions will ever speak louder than words.
Nobody on earth, except maybe the Drug Cartels, want to see kids separated from their parents. The laws that allowed this to happen have been on the books since 1996, but they were never enforced until recently, which shows this should have been fixed long ago. So it's sad to see this happen to families, but maybe this will result in some legislation fixing the bad immigration laws we have now.
We need actions and not words from our elected officials, but I'm not sure in this climate that actions will ever speak louder than words.
TheShadowLord
Member
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...d-furor-over-immigrant-children-idUSKBN1JF177
Trump says would back both U.S House immigration bills as separation crisis grows
.S. President Donald Trump told Republican lawmakers on Tuesday he would back either of the immigration bills making their way through the House of Representatives, as the outcry grew over his administration's separation of immigrant parents and children at the U.S.-Mexico border.
Representative Mark Meadows said Trump told Republican members of the House at a meeting on Capitol Hill that they needed to get something done on immigration "right away."
In the meeting, Trump said separating families was "certainly not an attractive thing and does look bad," added Representative Tom Cole.
Congressional Republicans have been scrambling to craft legislation as videos of youngsters in cages and an audiotape of wailing children have sparked anger at home from groups ranging from clergy to influential business leaders, as well as condemnation abroad.
A Reuters/Ipsos national opinion poll released on Tuesday showed fewer than one in three American adults supporting the policy. The June 16-19 poll found that 28 percent of people polled supported the policy, while 57 percent opposed it and the remaining 15 percent said they did not know.
Trump says would back both U.S House immigration bills as separation crisis grows
.S. President Donald Trump told Republican lawmakers on Tuesday he would back either of the immigration bills making their way through the House of Representatives, as the outcry grew over his administration's separation of immigrant parents and children at the U.S.-Mexico border.
Representative Mark Meadows said Trump told Republican members of the House at a meeting on Capitol Hill that they needed to get something done on immigration "right away."
In the meeting, Trump said separating families was "certainly not an attractive thing and does look bad," added Representative Tom Cole.
Congressional Republicans have been scrambling to craft legislation as videos of youngsters in cages and an audiotape of wailing children have sparked anger at home from groups ranging from clergy to influential business leaders, as well as condemnation abroad.
A Reuters/Ipsos national opinion poll released on Tuesday showed fewer than one in three American adults supporting the policy. The June 16-19 poll found that 28 percent of people polled supported the policy, while 57 percent opposed it and the remaining 15 percent said they did not know.
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SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Is this a pol reply?
WaterAstro
Member
Too late. Republicans are beyond finished.
Whoever Dem will put up next election is for sure to win.
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SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
No politician cares about anybody but themselves. Shocking!
Wait, you mean the Republicans didn't support Schumer joke of a proposal. The proposal that is basically a green light to South America "use your kids to cut the line." What a shock.
so we rather should ignore the laws because of feelings? I am sorry but the moment you cross the border illegally. You can not hope for people feeling pity for you. Also how it is fair to anyone doing it on a legal way. Is tricking the parents to take away thei children ok? No but you still can separate them at a certain age. Go by the rules and nothing will happen break the rules and bear the consequences
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SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Somebody took pity on you yet these people don't deserve it. Got it.
I pity the people that do not see this as an issue.they have lost thier humanity.
People that support forced separation between kids and their parents like what is happening at the border are despicable and I can only hope that some day they end up in a similar situation and have the same thing happen to them
People that support forced separation between kids and their parents like what is happening at the border are despicable and I can only hope that some day they end up in a similar situation and have the same thing happen to them
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SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Fuck yeah America?