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[Bleepey]

I read some of the arguments surrounding paper abortions i.e women can choose to do what they like with a child if they get pregnant. So if they want it they can keep it if they don't they can abort it. However to even the odds men are allowed to divorce themselves from parental responsibility.

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2011/0...nd-abortion-rights-are-not-a-double-standard/


I find the argument sound but the idea of it kinda makes me uncomfortable. What does GAF think?

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

It takes two to tango.

 

[jaxword]

I am against abortion, I prefer the human species to overpopulate the planet until our overconsumption of resources collapses the global economy and everyone dies naturally from war and disease and famine as God intended.

 

[Stet]

Only if each decision of the divorcing of men from their children is mediated by a tribunal of 50 men and 50 women of all different racial and economic backgrounds.

 

[Loofy]

It takes two to tango.

Her body, her choice, her burden.

 

[H.Protagonist]

I'm not sure that 'evens the odds'. If both were having unprotected sex and she gets pregnant, and for moral/religious/emotional reasons feels an abortion is not an option for her, then why should he be able to 'divorce' himself from the responsibility? Perhaps he should have cared more before they had sex.

EDIT: i.e., I wish people would be adults before it came to this point.

 

[Bleepey]

I'm not sure that 'evens the odds'. If both were having unprotected sex and she gets pregnant, and for moral/religious/emotional reasons feels an abortion is not an option for her, then why should he be able to 'divorce' himself from the responsibility? Perhaps he should have cared more before they had sex.

Condoms fail, the pill fails. I remember talking to a dude who said a condom burst, and his girlfriend was on antibiotics which fucked with her birth control. Shit happens.

 

[grumble]

Disagree. I don't think that people who argue this understand the line pf reasoning. Guys and girls have the bodily autonomy to choose whether or not to have sex with someone. By engaging in sexual activity, you are voluntarily taking the risk of pregnancy. If that woman becomes pregnant, then she still maintains bodily autonomy and is able to remove the fetus if desired. The man does not have this biological limitation and his rights end when the sex is completed.

Sex is not just fun and games and can have very real consequences. Accept that there are risks, take measures to be safe and accept that things might still end up with you being a parent.

 

[NoRéN]

Her body, her choice, her burden.

Can this be used against a woman in divorce court in order to avoid paying child support?

 

[renitou]

If you can't abide the possibility of children, don't have sex. There's no get out of jail free card here: actions have consequences. I'll roll the dice!

 

[Fivefold]

This would be fine if there were no power imbalances in the relationship, i.e., if we lived in a truly equal society, you could say the responsibility for contraception is equally shared.

But that's not the case and there's still a lot of stigma with things like condon usage in (supposedly) monogamous couples and so on...

 

[Angelus Errare]

Can this be used against a woman in divorce court in order to avoid paying child support?

lmao that'd be hilarious.

Judge - "What is your defense"
*you stand*
You - "Her body, her choice, her burden"
*walk out the courtroom*

 

[jchap]

Men should not be able to divorce themselves from the responsibility that comes with poor decisions. If the child is not aborted, then they should be financially invested in its well being.

 

[Speevy]

I would rather they used the surgical tools they have now.

 

[The Technomancer]

This is an issue I'm conflicted on.

 

[grumble]

Can this be used against a woman in divorce court in order to avoid paying child support?

No. And it shouldn't be. Abortion is legal because otherwise you restrict the ability of a woman to control her own body. Aside from that one fact, the die is cast when you have sex. If guys got pregnant then women would be on the hook after sex.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

No. And it shouldn't be. Abortion is legal because otherwise you restrict the ability of a woman to control her own body. Aside from that one fact, the die is cast when you have sex. If guys got pregnant then women would be on the hook after sex.

If if and buts were candy and nuts...

 

[shadyspace]

well, what about when a woman wants to have an abortion and a dude is all like nah that's my kid he's got no legal recourse. What about that.

 

[Loofy]

Can this be used against a woman in divorce court in order to avoid paying child support?

No, since they were married.

Id like a law like this to pass so kids today might actually think about getting married before they think about having kids. Maybe thats old fashioned.

 

[H.Protagonist]

Condoms fail, the pill fails. I remember talking to a dude who said a condom burst, and his girlfriend was on antibiotics which fucked with her birth control. Shit happens.

Oh, I know there are accidents and unexpected births even when you're extremely cautious, but this kind of thing could be abused so easily by people who don't make the effort. If people had to sign/agree to this kind of thing ahead of sex, perhaps that would work. At least then those that only want sex and play at wanting a future with the other would or those that say they would opt for the abortion but then change their mind when they get pregnant would have their true intentions towards kids exposed or at least agreed upon before the relationship begins. And I mean this for women as well as men.

 

[captmorgan]

I still think the best option is the government to offer to pay guys 5K for a vasectomy, offer it to jr high/high school kids. That would take care of most of these choices

 

[Platy]

As long it is in a timed way (like till 3 or 4 months ... not 7 months pregnant), I don't see ANY problem.

Mother's Body, Mother's rules.

If the husband is sad that the mom did without his consent, he probably should be happy that his son will not be with a person that don't trust him to do this decission with his help.

I'm not sure that 'evens the odds'. If both were having unprotected sex and she gets pregnant, and for moral/religious/emotional reasons feels an abortion is not an option for her, then why should he be able to 'divorce' himself from the responsibility? Perhaps he should have cared more before they had sex.

EDIT: i.e., I wish people would be adults before it came to this point.

I wish people would be more adults before they climb a tree and fall and broke their arms ... I am against arm surgeries.

I wish people would be more adults before they drink and drive and end up with a piece of glass in their forehead ...

I wish people would be more adults before they did something stupid that they ended up regreting and needing medical intervention.

 

[el retorno]

I'm pro-choice because I feel its a women's health choice and part of bodily autonomy. You have sex and the women carries the child? the Man should support the child.

The ability of a women to have an abortion doesn't change the man's responsibility. Women have the choice of an abortion because they physically carry it.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Nah I think they should cut the baby in half and then each party can do what they want with their half.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Nah I think they should cut the baby in half and then each party can do what they want with their half.

Ah, the King Solomon method of resolving disputes. A classic.

 

[H.Protagonist]

As long it is in a timed way (like till 3 or 4 months ... not 7 months pregnant), I don't see ANY problem.

Mother's Body, Mother's rules.

If the husband is sad that the mom did without his consent, he probably should be happy that his son will not be with a person that don't trust him to do this decission with his help.



I wish people would be more adults before they climb a tree and fall and broke their arms ... I am against arm surgeries.

I wish people would be more adults before they drink and drive and end up with a piece of glass in their forehead ...

I wish people would be more adults before they did something stupid that they ended up regreting and needing medical intervention.

I don't think discussing your stance on what to do for this kind of thing before it happens is unreasonable or equivalent to blindly falling out of a tree. Yes, accidents happen, but I don't think these 'paper abortions' after the fact help anything, especially when the male partner can be as misleading about their stance on it as women are. If you want to fairly even the odds for guys, make this something signed/agreed upon before, not after it happens.

 

[EviLore]

Her body, her decision.

Once the child is born, it's not about fairness to the parents anymore, it's about the child's security. The best way we have of ensuring this is putting a financial burden on the biological father.

It's a messy situation and I'm not fond at all of the dark cloud hanging over men when it comes to sex. Women decide your fate in the case of a screwup. The only good solution here, though, is improving men's contraception options so that men never have to be trapped in unintended pregnancies. Hopefully Vasalgel comes through in the next couple years.

 

[Dunk#7]

I'm pro-choice because I feel its a women's health choice and part of bodily autonomy. You have sex and the women carries the child? the Man should support the child.

The ability of a women to have an abortion doesn't change the man's responsibility. Women have the choice of an abortion because they physically carry it.

If the woman wants the abortion should the man be allowed to find a suitable surrogate and force financial responsibility upon the woman?

 

[railGUN]

Nah I think they should cut the baby in half and then each party can do what they want with their half.

As a new Dad to a 3 month old, I highly recommend the upper half.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

As a new Dad to a 3 month old, I highly recommend the upper half.

I think it's more fair if it is cut in the middle.

 

[pigeon]

I generally agree with the argument that family law has some elements that are perhaps unduly slanted against men.

I'm not sure that this is an effective solution to the issue, though, for the reasons advanced in the post -- this will produce more, not less, children in need.

I'd be interested to see what happens to both this and the abortion rate if we had a solid family support system that gave new parents lengthy financial support and guaranteed leave without getting fired.

edit: Evilore is also correct that another thing that we should really deal with is our prehistoric contraception techniques and see if that helps.

 

[Devolution]

This kind of shit is why people should be demanding subsidized contraception up to and including abortion. It's quite ridiculous how the government shifts the burden financially so much on to parents, including men who otherwise didn't want the kid in order to avoid paying anything. Then other people hop on the bandwagon with "you had sex deal with the consequences." This is not how an enlightened society should work and yet here we are.

 

[H.Protagonist]

This kind of shit is why people should be demanding subsidized contraception up to and including abortion. It's quite ridiculous how the government shifts the burden financially so much on to parents, including men who otherwise didn't want the kid in order to avoid paying anything. Then other people hop on the bandwagon with "you had sex deal with the consequences." This is not how an enlightened society should work and yet here we are.

Money would certainly be better spent making contraception/care as available as possible. I don't understand how the pro-life contingent doesn't have this as one of their major goals/initiatives.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Her body, her decision.

Once the child is born, it's not about fairness to the parents anymore, it's about the child's security. The best way we have of ensuring this is putting a financial burden on the biological father.

It's a messy situation and I'm not fond at all of the dark cloud hanging over men when it comes to sex. Women decide your fate in the case of a screwup. The only good solution here, though, is improving men's contraception options so that men never have to be trapped in unintended pregnancies. Hopefully Vasalgel comes through in the next couple years.

They don't decide. We decide when we can't go a day without. There is always the hand technique. Don't want a kid? Don't ejaculate close to a woman. And we had it good for a few thousand years. So, it's tough titty for us.

 

[Unbounded]

I'm pro-choice because I feel its a women's health choice and part of bodily autonomy. You have sex and the women carries the child? the Man should support the child.

The ability of a women to have an abortion doesn't change the man's responsibility. Women have the choice of an abortion because they physically carry it.

The woman gets to decide whether she wants the child but the man gets no choice in whether or not he wants to support said child?

Shouldn't it just be limited to two situations? If the woman gets to decide whether or not she wants to have an abortion, it's her body, her choice, and the man has no responsibility only because he had absolutely no choice in the decision.

OR, if the man has some sort of decision-making power over whether or not the woman should get an abortion, then he has to help support whatever decision he helped them come to.

I really can't see this going any other way.

 

[Psychoward]

They don't decide. We decide when we can't go a day without. There is always the hand technique. Don't want a kid? Don't ejaculate close to a woman. And we had it good for a few thousand years. So, it's tough titty for us.

 

[Devolution]

Money would certainly be better spent making contraception/care as available as possible. I don't understand how the pro-life contingent doesn't have this as one of their major goals/initiatives.

Because they're busy slut-shaming. People should be demanding better contraceptive coverage, but who usually does? Oh right those lone feminazis.

 

[Platy]

The woman gets to decide whether she wants the child but the man gets no choice in whether or not he wants to support said child?

Shouldn't it just be limited to two situations? If the woman gets to decide whether or not she wants to have an abortion, it's her body, her choice, and the man has no responsibility only because he had absolutely no choice in the decision.

OR, if the man has some sort of decision-making power over whether or not the woman should get an abortion, then he has to help support whatever decision he helped them come to.

I really can't see this going any other way.

They have 3 months to choose. If the dad chooses not to suport and the mother chooses to have it anyway .. than nothing happens.

If the dad chooses to not support and the mother says "fuck it then" than she aborts ....

If the dad chooses to suport and the mother don't want it ... than the mother aborts and the dad chooses a women who wants to suport it too

I don't think discussing your stance on what to do for this kind of thing before it happens is unreasonable or equivalent to blindly falling out of a tree. Yes, accidents happen, but I don't think these 'paper abortions' after the fact help anything, especially when the male partner can be as misleading about their stance on it as women are. If you want to fairly even the odds for guys, make this something signed/agreed upon before, not after it happens.

It only gets fairly for the guys when they can get pregnant

 

[Keri]

If a woman exercise her right to have an abortion, then the result is that no child is born.

If a man were to exercise this hypothetical right, then the consequence is that an existing child is left without the financial support of one of its parents and potentially thrust into poverty.

These are not equal results and this is why "paper abortions" will never (and should never) exist.

 

[MikeDip]

I came into this topic thinking this was a new abortion technique that teenagers were using or something. I was thinking, "how the hell can paper get that far in, wont the moisture make it soft?".

I'm happy I was wrong.

 

[Fivefold]

If a man were to exercise this hypothetical right, then the consequence is that an existing child is left without the financial support of one of its parents and potentially thrust into poverty.

Which is what happens anyway.

 

[Devolution]

If a woman exercise her right to have an abortion, then the result is that no child is born.

If a man were to exercise this hypothetical right, then the consequence is that an existing child is left without the financial support of one of its parents and potentially thrust into poverty.

These are not equal results and this is why "paper abortions" will never (and should never) exist.

Or if the state really gives a shit they'd help single mothers better. My ex's father just moved from state to state, since you have to refile every time, in order to avoid payment.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

I know, imposing all these rules on you. The argument in immensly flawed when you think about it. A women is forcing you to have a child? She raped you? No, she didn't. It's equivalent to getting drunk at a bar, then blaming the bar because you drove home. There are other options. Stick it in her butt. Only oral sex. No sex. Hand jobs. Waiting until ur married. I know, these things are hard to think about. Wait a year. Force her to get an IUD. It's not that hard to not get a girl pregnant.

What this comes down to is laziness. The child has to suffer because her daddy couldn't keep his dick out of a girl. Pure unadulterated laziness. Couldn't wait and get her on the pill, an IUD, and a condom during the right time of the month? We can put a man on the moon but not figure out how to not get the chick pregnant? I'm pretty sure we know why she got pregnant.

Which is what happens anyway.

And we call those guys dicks. With or without a piece of paper.

 

[Fivefold]

What this comes down to is laziness. The child has to suffer because her daddy couldn't keep his dick out of a girl. Pure unadulterated laziness. Couldn't wait and get her on the pill, an IUD, and a condom during the right time of the month? We can put a man on the moon but not figure out how to not get the chick pregnant? I'm pretty sure we know why she got pregnant.

So the girl can't just say no?

 

[Unbounded]

If a woman exercise her right to have an abortion, then the result is that no child is born.

If a man were to exercise this hypothetical right, then the consequence is that an existing child is left without the financial support of one of its parents and potentially thrust into poverty.

These are not equal results and this is why "paper abortions" will never (and should never) exist.

Man wants baby, Woman wants baby: Baby is born, everyone is happy.

Man wants abortion, Woman wants abortion: No baby is born, everyone is happy.

Man wants baby, Woman wants abortion: No baby is born, Man is sad.

Man wants abortion, Woman wants baby: Baby is born, Man is supporting baby he didn't want.

How exactly are these equal results? The only possibilities are both parties are satisfied with the result or one of the parties (In both cases, the woman) is satisfied with the result.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

So the girl can't just say no?

Say no to what? The paper?

 

[blame space]

i didn't even know paper could get pregnant.

 

[Bleepey]

Because they're busy slut-shaming. People should be demanding better contraceptive coverage, but who usually does? Oh right those lone feminazis.

Women have way more contraceptive options than men. Men have condoms and..... Urhhhhh. Help me out here. Women have femidoms, coil, injection, various combinations of the pill, patch, ring, diaphragm am I missing any?

 

[Unbounded]

Say no to what? The paper?

To having sex in the first place.

Or are Women not accountable for their actions anymore?

 

[captmorgan]

Women have way more contraceptive options than men. Men have condoms and..... Urhhhhh. Help me out here. Women have femidoms, coil, injection, various combinations of the pill, patch, ring, diaphragm am I missing any?

The ugly cock-blocking friend