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What game have the best story this year?
- Thread starter Altima
- Start date
There were Witcher side quests with better stories.
You must hate Hemingway and David Lynch, then.
toastyToast
Member
If it were in the main game it'd be the best quest in the game.
Actually, Bloodborne in this example strikes me as far closer to just a digital museum than does Bioshock, because it's lacking a conventional or particularly compelling plotline that pushes you through the game. In BB you uncover all of this lore and that tells you why you're doing what you're doing in that world, but there's no (or at least, very little) actual plot to push you through the game world. It's like the lore of Lord of the Rings without the Lord of the Rings. Yeah, it's pretty deep and interesting lore, but there's a reason why people like stories.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Books and Films do this way better than any of FS's games.
The lore is not the story tho, the story is that you're hunting things and trying to defeat a very one dimensional villain who just wants to become a godlike being. It works much better in Lovecraft because there is a main character with agency, not just an avatar for the viewer to self insert themselves into. The main characters in Lovecraft stories react to the things around them. Your avatar literally has no personality. Wind Waker Link is an avatar with personality. And then, that's not even the crux of the issue, because other games released this year have lore that's just as interesting and a well told plot where the player character/avatar/predefined character has agency.
probably. Never read one of Hemingway's books or seen Lynch's movies.
Fancy Clown
Member
Why do you need the avatar to react to things? You react to things, because you are immersed in the story. Your reaction is theres. There are different facets to a story too, so there's the story of Yharnam, and then there's your role in it which is crafted to make the most of being an action game, and to be drawn along through the world where the story is.
Also do you consider Great Gatsby a great story even though Nick Carraway is basically just an observer for the reader to access the real characters of the story? Is that suddenly not a story? Or how about the game Gone Home? Does that not have a story because it's just you piecing things together through the environment about characters that aren't present and you don't interact with? Gaming especially opens the door to a lot more avenues for storytelling, and doing so by exploring a 3D space--which what gaming is at its most distilled--is a story that really takes advantage of the medium.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Because they're supposed to represent the player, it's 2015 and having a blank faced avatar in a triple A game with stuff just happening along in a museum like fashion isn't good storytelling. Nick Carraway, despite being an observer, has a personality. He has reactions, observations, he actually talks to the people he interacts with. Horrible comparison. Gone Home, is an experimental indie game. The story is finding out the story of the narrator. FS isn't taking advantage of the medium with the storytelling in BB, especially compared to other games this year like Undertale, Her Story, and SOMA, all of which make way more use of the nature of the medium.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Yay, mission accomplished! ^_^
This sidequest is easily better than anything in MGSV
I'm only half-joking.
Fancy Clown
Member
This whole conversation is just going to loop back to me linking the definition of story because "lore" (which actually is a misnomer when applied to this game) is story. You are entertained by the account of fictional individuals and events.
Lord of the Rings is not a video game, so it wouldn't be entertaining to watch a bunch of people piecing together a mystery. In Bloodborne you do it yourself.
Bloodborne doesn't feel like a museum to me because everything in the world is guided by a logic and has a story behind it, but it doesn't conveniently explain it all for you. Just like the real world. There's a story why that enemy looks the way it does, and why it's guarding that item, but it's up to you being observant to find out why. There's no handy dandy log book sitting there for absolutely no reason with no reason for any human being to make it other than to explain the story to the player in a really, really artificial manner. Bloodborne "cheats" in that it has brief bits of narration in the item descriptions, but I'm okay with them because they don't obviously explain everything with cheap exposition, they are well written, and most importantly they are very, very brief. It's a literary technique more so than awkwardly trying to shoehorn explanations of the world to the character in "audio logs" or "diary entries" that have no business being in an actual world, and usually are way, way too long to sit through when you could be playing the game.
That's the problem with MGSV, the story is so weak...and Snake barely talks, but with Sutherland as Snake, I know why they made him a silent protagonist. Still one of the worst in the series.
And I agree with the above, a side-quest in the Witcher 3 would be more interesting than MGSVs story.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
There have been many films and novels that prove this statement wrong. There is a lot of what could be considered cheap exposition in BB, right from the first character you meet who comes to you while you're asleep and entrusts you to do this great task because...reasons. It's quite poorly told especially in comparison to the other FS games where you at least have a motivation, purpose and agency because from the onset you're an important part and not just a random guy that just so happens to be incredibly good at killing.
RespectThySole
Member
Yay, mission accomplished! ^_^
This sidequest is easily better than anything in MGSV
I'm only half-joking.
LOL the
pan
Fancy Clown
Member
Poor choice of words on my part there, but it wouldn't be interesting to watch Frodo going around studying things and piecing together things about the world like you as a player do in Bloodborne. But Bloodborne is in large part a mystery game, and you engage with the mystery. The exposition isn't cheap because A) they are not exactly telling the truth, and B) it is in their best interest to tell them what they tell you.
You have just as much purpose and agency in Dark Souls as in Bloodborne. In Dark Souls you are the chosen undead and you journey to either link the fire or not and try and end the undead curse. In Bloodborne you are the chosen hunter and you must kill the nightmare new born to bring an end to the night of the hunt...and then things complicate and escalate from there if you investigate and figure out other options. You have 3 endings there too, instead of 2.
Nick has a personality because he's in a book, he needs one. Why does your character need to show reactions when you're the one controlling him and experiencing everything? Do you need him to say "hmm that's interesting?" when you piece together something interesting, or shout in fear when you run into something scary? No, because you are the one who is exploring Yharnam, and you are one piecing everything together so it would be redundant and frankly pretty mood killing in the game.
I'm not saying there's no room for a game like Bloodborne with a conventional cinematic story, or that I wouldn't enjoy it, but the story Bloodborne tells and how it tells it pretty perfect on their own, and I think it's a really unique and enjoyable way to tell a story because it cannily avoids all the pitfalls most game writing falls in to, with obvious motivations, on the nose dialogue, poorly thought out themes, etc.
I don't think we're going to come to an agreement or consensus here, and I've pretty much said what I want to say on the subject, but it was a good discussion and enjoyed hearing your perspective.
bananafactory
Banned
Tales from the Borderlands. Hands down.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Even subtle expressions would be a better way to make the avatar feel less like an avatar and more like an actual character pertinent to the plot, along with not making him a completely random joe who gets thrust into the plot while sleeping. Just take a look at Wind Waker and Skyward Sword, Link doesn't talk in either yet his reactions reflect those of the viewer. The motivation for the player character should be obvious instead of "Dude go kill things." Other FS have already shown how this works. I'm not a red haired woman, but I created that character because I assumed she would be pertinent to the plot. I'm not saying make the player the center of the universe but at least make their actions feel important and much more meaningful.
infiniteheteroskdasticity
Member
SOMA
It's the best story in a game since The Last of Us
It's the best story in a game since The Last of Us
Fancy Clown
Member
The motivation of "just go kill things" is just an obvious ruse in a sense. It feels phony and suspiciously too simple, and that's because it is. But its up to you to propel yourself on the mystery to find out what the hunt is all about.
Your characters face is behind armor of what you wear too, and there aren't many cutscenes, and the camera is pulled back and away so it would honestly not be worth the developers time to program in facial reactions, especially when I don't think they would add anything to the story.
But you are important to the story. You
literally save humanity or save humanity and succeed the role of another important character, or save humanity and become a great one like all the other important characters tried and failed to do all along.
Except that the thing that really makes your random guy anything special in Soulsborne games is that s/he happens to be incredibly good at killing. All that "chosen undead" crap is just that, crap spoonfed to your avatar to make you think you are a special snowflake instead of just another schmuck caught in the whirlpool of whatever the current events be.
threelights
Member
Her Story won a much well deserved award for best narrative, so try that 
And technically it was finished this year, but if you like JRPGs, try Trails in the Sky. First Chapter and Second Chapter. They are not super long, but they're not fast paced either, so there's a lot of talking.
Really amazing games.
And technically it was finished this year, but if you like JRPGs, try Trails in the Sky. First Chapter and Second Chapter. They are not super long, but they're not fast paced either, so there's a lot of talking.
Really amazing games.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Even when the camera is pulled in they don't animate any reaction. It looks incredibly out of place in a 2015 triple A game. It's "up to you" because the game does absolutely nothing to motivate the player to find out what's really happening because of the ridiculous introduction and a lot of contrivances in the plot that were made to serve the gameplay, like the Hunter's dream being an excuse to let players respawn over and over. I've played the game for 90 hours, I know what you're talking about but the game does a bad job at presenting it which is why most of the praise of the story is on the actual good part of it:the side quests. Which give you way more motivation and emotion than the twist that it's a lovecraftian game and not a werewolf hunting simulator.
And that works incredibly well. The legend in souls games speak of a chosen undead, they don't specifically name you but you certainly succeed and doing what so many others tried and failed to do. That's your incentive, that gives the player agency, the agency not to quit the game which in canon would make your character go hollow.
Fancy Clown
Member
Again your fave is covered most of the time and you rarely have camera angles on their face in the few brief cutscenes, so it's not too important. They aren't a character anyway, so at worst you get a second or two of awkwardness in a rare cutscene if your helmet is off. It would be a much better use of resources to make OTHER characters lips move when they're talking in game.
And why does the impetus not need to lie on the player to choose how the story goes? That's agency. You are plopped into a fascinating world with a great story hook (what the fuck is going on here and what are these people talking about) and so you can try and solve that mystery, or you can accept the surface leve explanations you're given and just try to end the hunt. It's a game, the only medium where you can be the driving force of your story experience, and where you don't have to have a pre defined character be your entry point in the world. It puts you in the game and says "do as you wish". It presents the story as a world to be explored, a storytelling technique that is impossible in film and literature. You yourself said you enjoyed finding out about the "lore" of the world, so you enjoyed a large part of the story.
And chosen Hunter has the same level of agency as chosen undead. But because Bloodborne is a horror game the consequences and circumstances are more stacked against your player because you are more helpless (but not entirely as the story shows) in the cosmic sense.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's still 2015 man, keyframed eye expressions are not very difficult. It's even more baffling since they go through the trouble of rigging every character's face. It's not like i'm asking for full performance capture here, (although i'd love that for the other characters since they're so static). The impetus needs to rely on the storyteller to provide a motivation for the player/viewer that feels compelling, even if the intent is to mindfuck them. Like many said it's like going through a museum which i'm positive is not the intent. The lore itself is interesting the story however provides very little motivation for the player, when honestly, it should've provided even more since the intent is to fool the player. There are so many other ways the game could've started instead of you being woken up from your sleep and then being given no context for the way more interesting story that you have very little to actually do with. The player isn't presented with the mystery "find out what's happening." The player is presented with a task "Kill beasts." As in:Kill bosses. Which is fine by itself since the gameplay and level design is superb chalice dungeons not withstanding. There's no legend of a "chosen hunter." You're a random guy who's told that you're a hunter because of a ridiculous intro. If anything, they should've played into the beast aspect of it much more since insight plays a role in the game. They most definitely should've explained more stuff about the hunters because it's incredibly ambiguous as to whether or not they're still an actual organization, because you have people like Eileen the Crow running around who apparently hunts hunters because reasons, a task that usually would have a reason.
Then there's the nature of this thread, where other games have lore just as complex as interesting but also succeed at the main narrative. That reason alone should invalid bloodborne, especially considering how the semantics of lore=story is brought up only in it's defense and no other game needs that as an excuse.
Fancy Clown
Member
I don't think the face thing is really much an issue and doesn't concern the storytelling too much, but sure I'll take their eyes moving in the couple cutscene you can see them.
There is great motivation though. You are plopped into this fascinating horrifying place and told to do something mysterious that sounds really suspicious and ominous. If I were in that situation (which is what the premise of the game is and the basis for the player character being an avatar for you) I'd want to know what the hell was going on and what my role in it is and who these people are and why is everyone attacking me and what is this thing, etc, etc. I think the mysteries build in a natural organic way because you are the one who is piecing it together. You play THE detective in a story, not A detective; meaning you are the character so all your actions and motivations and choices are driven by you, and not a pre-fab character with his/her own motivations and characteristics. It's not a museum because things aren't placed in obvious ways to explain everything to you. It's a world that has a story behind because it's all built around around it logically, like a real place has its own history evident everywhere but you have to look into it to make the connections. But if the mysteries don't interest you, than that's not your "character"'s motivation . Then it's to kill monsters and escape the dream. You can have it anyway you like since you're in charge of your experience, which in itself is good storytelling for the medium.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
Tearaway Unfolded. I don't know if that counts though. If not, SOMA.
Actually, I was trying to avoid any kind of confusion between 'lore' and 'story' when I used the world 'plotline'. I agree that Bloodborne has a story, and the narrative is carefully integrated with the world in a way that makes uncovering it rewarding.
Fancy Clown
Member
Other games don't present their story the way Bloodborne does, and the way they incorporate the "lore" in the story is different, and I would argue less effective. And I think the story of Bloodborne stands just as strong as any story here, both in what the story is and how it uses the medium to tell it.
That defense is needed for Bloodborne because those other games have traditional cinematic narratives, and not many people are used to how Bloodborne's story is told, and find challenging narratives that require more active participation in to understand to be a barrier to enjoyment. Like many of the people who don't like Bloodborne's method of storytelling wouldn't like something like Mulholland Drive, because it's not easy to grasp, it's not conventional, and it's not a traditionally satisfying narrative in the way most people are conditioned to accept. It's still a great story.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's more of a nitpick I have with FS games. Being told to kill beasts isn't mysterious or ominous. Nothing about it sounds mysterious or ominous.
You're just thrust into this with absolutely no way to infer what your purpose was, and unlike the previous Soul games, there's no implication of a backstory.
-De--->You died and now are undead
-DS1--->You were imprisoned because you're undead
-DS2--->Seeking a break from the curse which is why you traveled to Drangleic
-BB--->You were napping and some old dude decided to come visit you?
See where they differ in motivation.
Other games do present their narratives in ways that are just as unconventional as BB's. Her Story is solely about finding out a mystery. Other narratives require more active participation for understand succeed more so than bloodborne.
Fancy Clown
Member
Well you lost your memory in Bloodborne (a reliable way to make your character and you have 1:1 knowledge and experience with the world) so it makes sense you have no idea. I don't know, I guess the situation wasn't mysterious enough for you, but I thought waking up in some sort of blood hospital with monsters everywhere and no idea why I was there or where I was and then being pulled into some dream world where I'm told I'm a special hunter was perplexing enough that I wanted to know what it's all about. And the game rewards you because the answers are all out there, they're just not spoon fed to you. Understanding the story is as much of a part of gameplay as killing things should you undertake it, because it's also an active task that doesn't just let you accomplish it.
Fancy Clown
Member
Ah I see, gotcha. Yeah, I agree the narrative of Bloodborne doesn't have a traditionally satisfying narrative for what people are conditioned to accept as stories. But the thing is, all the people saying that Bloodborne has not story, or they don't like the story, but they love the lore? Then they like Bloodborne's story, and the story was effective. They might not like the non-traditional aspect of how you access the story--ie that you don't play as a character--but they like the story itself.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
See, that's what I meant earlier when I said they were contrived elements in the plot. You know what would've been interesting, actually doing something with the fact that you have no memory. Making the player part of something. I also just realized that the CGI cinematics for DS and DSII both did an excellent job of contextualizing everything right before you start the game. The lore was explained by the directors before the game came out, so unless you went in knowing absolutely nothing, the gaps were already filled in but the game's pacing in the early moments are quite poor compared to how well their previous games thrust you into the world. Nowhere is it established that the main goal of the character is to find secrets, in fact, that's the goal of the dlc and it's contextualized much better. There's a ridiculous disconnect between what the game is doing and what you're projecting onto it because you specifically gave yourself a goal.