I mean, if we're talking hypothetical, I wish to think that the NGC would have launched with an online network
Aaaand I need a 360 now.
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What if Perfect Dark and Conker's Bad Fur Day were GameCube launch titles instead?
- Thread starter daTRUballin
- Start date
I mean, if we're talking hypothetical, I wish to think that the NGC would have launched with an online network
Aaaand I need a 360 now.
I would dispute this vehemently. GC had an ok launch, probably better than PS2, but PS2s launch lineup was bad. Halo DOA3 and Munch was a pretty stellar launch trio for xbox though.
petran79
Banned
Back then Nintendo had a console but did not have the fans, while Sega had the fans but did not have a console.
Dr. Carroll, what you seem to refuse to understand is that Halo was popular and sold a completely unproven system with garbage games because it was a pop culture zeitgeist phenomenon. Of course that matters! It's the only thing that matters!
The Xbox succeeded in America where the Gamecube failed because it tapped into the zeitgeist and provided something that had never existed before. (Ditto GTA III)
And yes, both MS and Nintendo passed on partnering with Rockstar - now there's something that actually would have changed gaming history forever. Probably already like ten threads about that alternate history, however.
Your logic is so tautological. They're successful because they're succssful. Well, yes, but if Nightfire was Halo, wouldn't the Gamecube have won the generation since it had Nightfire on it? Even if they're great games (and Nightfire sucks), there's a difference between quality and sales power.
PDZ sucks. PD on XBLA is fine. But the market has clearly moved on. Why would they sell systems when the market clearly shows that nobody wants these games en masse anymore? At that point, why would they change the course of gaming history? They're just... another game. SWAT 4 is a great game. I can also recognize that it ain't a killer app or selling like COD 4.
I can't tell if you were a GC only player back in the day, or if you're just nostalgic for the days when FPS weren't all Halo/COD 4 clones (I am too! Build a PC!).
The Xbox succeeded in America where the Gamecube failed because it tapped into the zeitgeist and provided something that had never existed before. (Ditto GTA III)
And yes, both MS and Nintendo passed on partnering with Rockstar - now there's something that actually would have changed gaming history forever. Probably already like ten threads about that alternate history, however.
Your logic is so tautological. They're successful because they're succssful. Well, yes, but if Nightfire was Halo, wouldn't the Gamecube have won the generation since it had Nightfire on it? Even if they're great games (and Nightfire sucks), there's a difference between quality and sales power.
PDZ sucks. PD on XBLA is fine. But the market has clearly moved on. Why would they sell systems when the market clearly shows that nobody wants these games en masse anymore? At that point, why would they change the course of gaming history? They're just... another game. SWAT 4 is a great game. I can also recognize that it ain't a killer app or selling like COD 4.
I can't tell if you were a GC only player back in the day, or if you're just nostalgic for the days when FPS weren't all Halo/COD 4 clones (I am too! Build a PC!).
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
I guess it's personal preference. Halo was top notch and DoA3 was well done. I never played Munch, but I Luigi's Mansion and Rogue Squadron were awesome. Couple those with Pikmin and Super Monkey Ball, which were both very original titles, and I feel it was the best. Even Wave Race Blue Storm was ok.
Dr. Carroll
Banned
Who cares about "winning the generation"? That's console warrior nonsense. The Xbox had Halo, yes, and many other superb, fantastic games (Far Cry: Instincts was great), plus the best versions of multiplatform titles, and it sold worse than the N64. Heck, the PS3 and 360 had all those fantastic games, but they got crushed by the Wii. We could argue that the reason the Xbox 360 and PS3 sucked so hard was because they didn't have killer apps like Wii Sports Resort.
I feel like you're approaching this topic from a completely different angle to me. My position is that PD being on the GC would have benefited both the GC, since it lacked "muh exclusive" FPS games, and PD, because it would have benefited from better performance, visuals, and a fresh audience. Same reason why Turok 3 sold poorly and Turok: Evolution sold pretty well. In 2000, the N64 was winding down. Kinda like how the Xbox was winding down by 2005 and Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory sold a fraction of what the first Splinter Cell sold.
This is actually kind of a good point, and it ties into the current debate about how much "exclusives" matter in the console space. For example, the market has clearly demonstrated that they're really not interested in games like Persona 5. But that doesn't mean Persona 5 isn't a factor in selling consoles.
I didn't own a Gamecube, actually.
SkyMasterson
Member
I think having PD and Conker on or near launch may have changed things around to where MS and Nintendo switched places in terms of how they finished sales wise.
With Nintendo narrowing out MS with a few more consoles sold, but I don't think it would have done much else than that.
I'm imagining if MS had the balls to take on the GTA 3 exclusivity, man that would have changed everything. Considering they were seemingly taking anything that was being offered there way, I'm surprised they didn't do that.
It is also interesting to think what would have happened with Rare had PD and/or Conker appeared on GC and were huge hits, if Nintendo would have tried to buy them out.
With Nintendo narrowing out MS with a few more consoles sold, but I don't think it would have done much else than that.
I'm imagining if MS had the balls to take on the GTA 3 exclusivity, man that would have changed everything. Considering they were seemingly taking anything that was being offered there way, I'm surprised they didn't do that.
It is also interesting to think what would have happened with Rare had PD and/or Conker appeared on GC and were huge hits, if Nintendo would have tried to buy them out.
They would had sold about the same or slightly more copies, depending on much the games would use the Gamecube's power. However, considering both games at this point would be 3/5 years in development, Nintendo would had still passed on buying Rare outright. Also, after PD finished the main devs left to form free radical to make timesplitters and the director to a company that wouldn't really much. Nintendo still had DKR2 on the way, but after that would had been a more Banjo-Kazooe Grabbed by the Goulies and then ???.
GTA3 and Vice City on Xbox would had given MS a serious ace up the sleeve that could had dampened the PS2's runaway success in the USA if not the world, although the effects of that could had serious ramifications of the console generations afterwards.
Perfect Dark is great. It's not an online multiplayer shooter. It didn't revolutionize the shooter genre like Goldeneye. It wouldn't be able to hold a candle to a game that allowed Microsoft to start charging access to live fees. Halo changed first person shooters on consoles forever.
Also, Nintendo wouldn't have held onto rare. Microsoft forced the sale by buying up the rest of rare Nintendo didn't own. It might have convinced them to buy the rest of rare, but I doubt it. If donkey kong country couldn't convince them, nothing will. Once Microsoft did that, Nintendo would have had to accept games from rare on a competitors platform. They said screw it and sold the rest.
Also, Nintendo wouldn't have held onto rare. Microsoft forced the sale by buying up the rest of rare Nintendo didn't own. It might have convinced them to buy the rest of rare, but I doubt it. If donkey kong country couldn't convince them, nothing will. Once Microsoft did that, Nintendo would have had to accept games from rare on a competitors platform. They said screw it and sold the rest.
LordBaztion
Member
Perfect dark would have been good for the console but I don't think it would have sell better than ok the N64. On the other hand, it would have been compared negatively to halo.
Conner would have done better probably, by the time it released the n64 already have the childish stigma and the game cube was a fresh start. I just wonder how much better would have been the multiplayer with better hardware but most likely they still wouldn't have implemented twin stick controls.
Conner would have done better probably, by the time it released the n64 already have the childish stigma and the game cube was a fresh start. I just wonder how much better would have been the multiplayer with better hardware but most likely they still wouldn't have implemented twin stick controls.
The Stampers offered the rest of Rare to Nintendo, Nintendo said no, but they would be happy to continue their arrangement and perhaps pick up some additional shares. But the Stampers wanted to get paid (not that there is anything wrong with that), so they told Nintendo they would shop their shares to other parties, to which Nintendo said OK, we're still not interested.
In the end, Nintendo sold their shares back to the Stampers, who then sold the whole company to MS.
Should have clarified I had meant Perfect Dark Zero as it was originally planned for Gamecube. Halo still would have beaten it, but it would have been better received on the Gamecube and wouldn't have been remade three different time before landing on the 360.
I like you.
I loved all the Rogue Squadrons, but was never able to find someone else decent to play the Co-Op version with.
It's BC on Xbox 1. If you buy RARE Replay, it's included along with PDZero (and 28 other RARE games like the BKs).
In regards to Conker, I don't think Rare would've wanted that game released on the GameCube anyway. It was in development for kind of a long time, since 1997. Remember, it was supposed to be originally released as Twelve Tales: Conker 64 and be just like the other mascot platformers that Rare were releasing at the time. Then they went and changed it up and had it be a parody game where it poked fun at the mascot platformer games.
What helped Conker with that idea of an M-rated mascot platformer was that it had those same N64 graphics as the others. If Rare released the game on the GameCube, then the graphics would've been spruced up to meet the standards at the time like Starfox Adventures did. It wouldn't have made any sense to make fun of platformers because there weren't any yet for that generation.
I also imagine that Nintendo wouldn't have bought Rare even if they did put out more than just one game for the GameCube. I think what one of the big factors that contributed to that was that Yamauchi recently retired as president of Nintendo and Iwata came in and refocused the company on mainly Japanese games. With Rare being a western company, it didn't fit in with Iwata's new Japanese-centric vision, so he didn't want to fully buy Rare. I'm not sure if Yamauchi would've bought Rare if they presented the opportunity to do it before 2002, but there was just no way it was going to happen under Iwata.
What helped Conker with that idea of an M-rated mascot platformer was that it had those same N64 graphics as the others. If Rare released the game on the GameCube, then the graphics would've been spruced up to meet the standards at the time like Starfox Adventures did. It wouldn't have made any sense to make fun of platformers because there weren't any yet for that generation.
I also imagine that Nintendo wouldn't have bought Rare even if they did put out more than just one game for the GameCube. I think what one of the big factors that contributed to that was that Yamauchi recently retired as president of Nintendo and Iwata came in and refocused the company on mainly Japanese games. With Rare being a western company, it didn't fit in with Iwata's new Japanese-centric vision, so he didn't want to fully buy Rare. I'm not sure if Yamauchi would've bought Rare if they presented the opportunity to do it before 2002, but there was just no way it was going to happen under Iwata.
PD and CBFD as GameCube launch games wouldn't have made a dent in the PS2 or its 2001 lineup, but it could have made a difference in the competition against Xbox. I'm not sure how they would have measured up against Halo: Combat Evolved but they probably would have at least softened the damage Xbox ended up doing to Nintendo's North American base.
The N64 actually sold about as many units in North America as the Super NES had, Nintendo's market share during that gen only really imploded in Japan. And Nintendo's market share during the PS2 era wasn't taken away by Sony so much as by Microsoft. N64 was the multiplayer shooter console back in those days (and not just because of GoldenEye). PD and CBFD on GameCube could possibly have preserved that reputation. And yeah, it sucked that the GameCube never really got a big exclusive shooter. I played the shit out of TimeSplitters and even had one really fun weekend with Nightfire MP. Halo really was the successor to GoldenEye.
The N64 actually sold about as many units in North America as the Super NES had, Nintendo's market share during that gen only really imploded in Japan. And Nintendo's market share during the PS2 era wasn't taken away by Sony so much as by Microsoft. N64 was the multiplayer shooter console back in those days (and not just because of GoldenEye). PD and CBFD on GameCube could possibly have preserved that reputation. And yeah, it sucked that the GameCube never really got a big exclusive shooter. I played the shit out of TimeSplitters and even had one really fun weekend with Nightfire MP. Halo really was the successor to GoldenEye.
Don't want to derail the thread but I remember people hyped/liked Goldeneye 2010 and aside the main theme that was finally here, I think it was sh*t.
Dr. Carroll
Banned
How was it "shit"? The changes they made to the story and characters were horrific, but it was mechanically solid and played well.
HiredN00bs
Member
I love all of these games but I can't envision a universe where this is true. Maybe if it had a feature set like Halo 2? Playing Goldeneye online sounds miserable.
That certainly wouldn't have happened in 2001, and Nintendo probably wouldn't have made its own FPSs online on the GameCube.
Nekketsu Kõha
Banned
N64 without PD would sour my memory of that console even further. Then you mention another essential title for the machine. What if Nintendo didn't make the N64?
Releasing those games on the Gamecube wouldn't have changed the fact that Microsoft walked in and offered more for all of Rare ($375M) than Nintendo was willing to spend on the 51% share to buyout the Stampers.
Nintendo instead bought Retro for $1M.
Edit: To clarify the foundations of selling their share of Rare took place before purchasing Retro, they had to allow options to purchase the other 51% expire before Rare could shop itself, which it did to Activision before working out a deal with Microsoft. So its true they closed the deal for Retro before the deal with Microsoft closed, but it was clear that Nintendo wasn't going to buy all of Rare.
Nintendo instead bought Retro for $1M.
Edit: To clarify the foundations of selling their share of Rare took place before purchasing Retro, they had to allow options to purchase the other 51% expire before Rare could shop itself, which it did to Activision before working out a deal with Microsoft. So its true they closed the deal for Retro before the deal with Microsoft closed, but it was clear that Nintendo wasn't going to buy all of Rare.
daTRUballin
Member
That's not true actually. This is a common mistake people make for whatever reason. Yes, Nintendo did buy Retro for $1M, but they bought them BEFORE the sale of Rare.
The sale of Rare didn't motivate Nintendo to buy Retro, as many people seem to think. They already owned Retro before the Rare sale. So they could've easily held on to both and maybe Nintendo would at least have two major western exclusive developers to this day.
Alex_Mexico
Member
That short snippet of Joanna Dark in the Spaceworld 2000 GC teaser was enough for me to "hold me over" the temptation of buying an Xbox for Halo. When I saw ppl talking about Halo all I could think was "just you wait until Perfect Dark Zero releases on GameCube. It'll blow Halo out of the water!"
It wasn't so much the issue of PD being on N64 instead of GC. It was more of a the next PD never releasing on GC that was a bigger problem.
God, I spent so many hours playing PD on N64. I had so much hope riding on one for the GC.
daTRUballin
Member
Yeah, I've always wanted to see how the GameCube version of PDZ was like in comparison to what we got in the final version. But apparently, according to some insiders and collectors, the GC version actually wasn't all that different and that the project was going nowhere? But at the same time, I remember reading from former Rare employees that the GC version was actually a whole lot better than the final version and that the Xbox version of the game was a "sack of shit" in comparison to the early GC version.
A lot of conflicting reports it seems, but still would be great if we ever got to see the GC version of the game if it exists anywhere.
Conker Live & Uncut
Perfect Dark anime style
Still don't understand what Rare was thinking with that anime version lol
ShadowFox08
Member
If Nintendo had RARE, a regular CD, and decent online.. They would probably be #2 in console sales for that Gen after PS2.
Vital Tundra
Member
If the Gamecube launched with Perfect Dark with modern controls and its online adapter I can't imagine the fun that would have been had in my household and with my friends.
Quoting my edit.
To clarify the foundations of selling their share of Rare took place before purchasing Retro, they had to allow options to purchase the other 51% expire before Rare could shop itself, which it did to Activision before working out a deal with Microsoft. So its true they closed the deal for Retro before the deal with Microsoft closed, but it was clear well before buying Retro that Nintendo wasn't going to buy all of Rare.
So they could have had both sure, but they would have had to have bought out the Stampers, which may have been a fairly reasonable before the option lapsed, but once it had and both Activision and Microsoft showed interest, Nintendo wasn't going to outbid them, they've never shown a willingness to spend crazy money acquiring talent/IP the way that other companies will do.
I don't know if Rare would have made a huge difference to where things currently stand. Nintendo of Japan would have still been making decisions with regards to online infrastructure and hardware. Developers may have continued to leave the studio, ect.
Wasn't there a black? I got mine when Smash came out and mine is black
DeaconKnowledge
Member
PD was a generation too early. PD releases on GameCube and nobody talks about Halo.
Porcile
Member
I remember a lot of people were waiting for Rare on Gamecube before they bought the console. Really sucks we never got a good Perfect Dark sequel.
Timesplitters 2 was excellent, but if you compare TS2 and PD game side by side you realise it doesn't come close in terms mission variety and speed. Even compared to Goldeneye its lacking a lot. Talking mostly single player.
Timesplitters 2 was excellent, but if you compare TS2 and PD game side by side you realise it doesn't come close in terms mission variety and speed. Even compared to Goldeneye its lacking a lot. Talking mostly single player.
jeremy1456
Junior Member
That's just not how it would have panned out. This is coming from someone who purchased an Xbox and three controllers with Halo to play with friends, and went back to playing Perfect Dark after a few matches.
Halo was 'cooler' than Perfect Dark ever was.
Online was hardly a thing on GameCube...
Yep, definitely when it comes to framerate.
daTRUballin
Member
I don't see how Rare wouldn't have been just fine. What exactly are you trying to say here?
I can sorta-kinda see your point on Perfect Dark, since that game released in 2000.
But Conker? Conker released on N64 roughly 8 months before GameCube's launch. Releasing an M-rated 3D platformer on a dying console (during GameCube's launch year) was a bad idea.
I'm not saying that Conker would've sold great on GameCube. But as a GameCube launch window title, more people would have checked Conker out. Especially since there was no 3D Mario game available at GameCube's launch.
I feel like two mature rated games from Rare on the GameCube wouldn't have been very ideal for Nintendo.
I feel like they could have held over DK64 and actually made it a more memorable game. It's like the one Rare game on N64 I don't feel like they did justice.
daTRUballin
Member
Why would they not have been ideal? Having two exclusive mature rated games at launch could've helped the GC have more appeal for an adult audience. This was especially more of a bigger deal back then than it is now.
As for DK64 being the one game Rare didn't do justice for on the N64, I think you've forgotten about Mickey's Speedway USA lol. That game was just WTF from top to bottom. I'd also argue having PD and CBFD be released on N64 instead of GC wasn't doing justice to those games either, funnily enough.
I always felt Nintendo didn't know how to market the Gamecube. It feels like they designed it to be a toy when their competitors we're selling electronics. Releasing the console in purple and not including a DVD player really gave the console an image problem. I doubt having a marketable FPS would have made any difference really.
At least Timesplitters 2 was good though. The port to Gamecube was handled very well. Easily the best FPS on the console.
At least Timesplitters 2 was good though. The port to Gamecube was handled very well. Easily the best FPS on the console.
I don't think Conker was destined to sell too hot, be it on N64 or GC.
Perfect Dark would have had a better chance to help GC but you need to realize that these projects (especially conker which was rebooted)
started many years (at least 3-4) before they were released.
what I mean is that there was pressure to release them on the console they targeted.
I believe Dinosaur Planet started development much later than these two.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=963700
With this context being #2 or #3 doesn't really matter.
PS2 steamrolled everything else that generation.
Perfect Dark would have had a better chance to help GC but you need to realize that these projects (especially conker which was rebooted)
started many years (at least 3-4) before they were released.
what I mean is that there was pressure to release them on the console they targeted.
I believe Dinosaur Planet started development much later than these two.
Perfect Dark sold 2.52 million units.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=963700
The difference in sales between GC and Xbox is a measly 2M.
With this context being #2 or #3 doesn't really matter.
PS2 steamrolled everything else that generation.
Listen to this interview made by Kikizo to Rare just after the buyout.
Rare was bought by Microsoft to broad their audience and because Rare games on average sold 1.4M units until that point.
Neither of those two statement will hold true for Rare tenure under Microsoft though (Rare largely failed to broad Xbox audience and the only Rare game to sell really well was Kinect Sports).
https://youtu.be/R6CPaTkrOWs?t=12m10s
What Microsoft didn't realize when they considered that Rare sold an average of 1.40M per game on Nintendo consoles is that the biggest sellers were done with IPs not directly owned by Rare after the split with Nintendo (Nintendo would retain Donkey Kong and Starfox while Rare the rest).
In fact of all Rare million sellers under Nintendo publishing only 23% of the sales came from IPs owned by Rare (and thus Microsoft after the buyout).
TheMagician
Member
Even a remastered Perfect Dark at 60fps/480p would have been amazing.
Would have brought a lot of the N64 FPS crowd immediately over to the GC.
Would have brought a lot of the N64 FPS crowd immediately over to the GC.