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What is the point of humanity? Alternatively - Post Materialism discussion
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DjangoReinhardt
Thinks he should have been the one to kill Batman's parents.
The purpose of your life is to give me as much money as possible.ClosingADoor said:
nelsonroyale
Member
Seems like you are coming from a theistic perspective, ie humanity has some sort of destiny or purpose...
I don´t believe there is any point to humanity, except whatever point humans create for themselves and justify to themselves. Other organisms have no care for the meaning and justifications of humanity, except how they intrude on their own interests.
I don´t believe there is any point to humanity, except whatever point humans create for themselves and justify to themselves. Other organisms have no care for the meaning and justifications of humanity, except how they intrude on their own interests.
AlucarD.eq
Member
faridmon said:
Ok I see your point, actually my major is Econ and Business management, so now I started with this Sustainable development masters program they change a few "rules" that I was teach, and that really make me want to research more, to find out how is right.
I would be interested in read about the subject you wrote. I like to argue with a few teachers that are too "pessimistic" and I do believe that the problem is too attached to trends in society than the % or resources left.
Still I think there is a major tipping point in the horizon, maybe that will be my thesis project haha.
Also, people here in GAF is mostly against Digital distribution, but what if that could make a major impact in e-waste? (maybe I will search for the numbers of e-waste of Physic products vs digital (since that means more servers, or (Add elements for that industry))
Incitemaybe
Member
After reading the replies in this thread "ignorance is next to godliness" comes to mind, after that it's cynicism.
It's difficult to fathom humanity can move forward when on an everyday level a venomous protection of the status quo through insults is the accepted and elevated norm.
It's difficult to fathom humanity can move forward when on an everyday level a venomous protection of the status quo through insults is the accepted and elevated norm.
cooljeanius
Member
Oh. That type of materialism.
nelsonroyale said:
Yeah, that's the very low level thinking about this.
Moving past that... touching on what you're saying here; What do you think the point of humanity should be? What point do you think we should have?
When the dust settles and humanity dissapates, what is it that you think we should have achieved as a collective whole?
And what direction should we move in together as a society? Does everyone of us just survive our own localized system as best we can, and then let all other consequences be an emergent symptom of that? If that is the case, then should we be surprised when so many issues that arise from our externalities (unconsidered consequences) come back to bite us in the ass?
speculawyer
Member
There is no point.
And you can get depressed about that . . . or be optimistic and MAKE YOUR OWN POINT!
Here is what I think our point should be . . . and it sounds simple: Survival. But it really isn't. First of all, we haven't figured out how to live sustainably on this planet. We need to figure that out. Right now, we are headed for disaster with an every increasing population and dwindling fossils fuels.
And after figuring out sustainability, we need to figure out how to spread to different planets and, eventually, different solar systems. Eventually, the earth will suffer some sort of impact that could wipe us out just like the dinosaurs. And if we are lucky enough to avoid that, the Sun will eventually swallow us up.
Those are big goals and we are just stupid superstitious apes. Maybe we'll be able to do it . . . but I dunno.
And you can get depressed about that . . . or be optimistic and MAKE YOUR OWN POINT!
Here is what I think our point should be . . . and it sounds simple: Survival. But it really isn't. First of all, we haven't figured out how to live sustainably on this planet. We need to figure that out. Right now, we are headed for disaster with an every increasing population and dwindling fossils fuels.
And after figuring out sustainability, we need to figure out how to spread to different planets and, eventually, different solar systems. Eventually, the earth will suffer some sort of impact that could wipe us out just like the dinosaurs. And if we are lucky enough to avoid that, the Sun will eventually swallow us up.
Those are big goals and we are just stupid superstitious apes. Maybe we'll be able to do it . . . but I dunno.
Buckethead
Banned
Be kind.
Give to others.
Have as much fun as possible.
Get a family.
Have kids.
Never get "old".
Give to others.
Have as much fun as possible.
Get a family.
Have kids.
Never get "old".
umop_3pisdn
Member
In knowing ourselves, we know everything there is to know.
I think we exist to evolve in our awareness, to die better off than how we began. Life is essentially marked by constant self-transformation, and then death. Both of these strike me as good, because only 'perfect' things deserve to exist forever as they are. That makes us at best an experiment or a trial at something, an opportunity for movement closer to the ideal, but not the final say in anything.
I think we exist to evolve in our awareness, to die better off than how we began. Life is essentially marked by constant self-transformation, and then death. Both of these strike me as good, because only 'perfect' things deserve to exist forever as they are. That makes us at best an experiment or a trial at something, an opportunity for movement closer to the ideal, but not the final say in anything.
Trent Strong
Banned
wayward archer said:
This makes it sound like there is some sort of organizing intelligence behind the universe, or that the universe has some sort of goal or is being guided. Or that humanity is somehow part of the universe's design. I don't know if any of that is what you meant, but all of those ideas are basically magical.
Lionheart1337
Member
Why does there have to be a point?
wayward archer
Member
Trent Strong said:
To me it doesn't suggest any kind of intelligence or magic behind the universe. We are literally made of the same stuff that got thrown out of the big bang, and we do try and figure out "what it's all about" every once in a while in between distracting ourselves with the mechanics of everyday living. Who knows, it might not be about anything. Maybe there's some kind of supernatural creation force/will/intelligence behind it all, maybe there isn't.
HeadsUpSevenUp
Member
You'd probably have to look at our history. What stands out? What defines us?
What stands out to me is that we are always pushing to boundaries of everything. The most important boundary we push is truth. We want to know what is real.
It seems to me that our biological imperatives facilitate finding truth. There are always special people in our midst who discover something new, and those people push the boundaries, and the rest of us distribute the knowledge.
If you are not one of those people, then your biological imperative to keep yourself happy is part of the process of distribution. I think if you keep yourself healthy and happy, and you have people in your life who you also like to see happy, such as friends and family, then you are maximizing the amount of good information you can receive and distribute.
What stands out to me is that we are always pushing to boundaries of everything. The most important boundary we push is truth. We want to know what is real.
It seems to me that our biological imperatives facilitate finding truth. There are always special people in our midst who discover something new, and those people push the boundaries, and the rest of us distribute the knowledge.
If you are not one of those people, then your biological imperative to keep yourself happy is part of the process of distribution. I think if you keep yourself healthy and happy, and you have people in your life who you also like to see happy, such as friends and family, then you are maximizing the amount of good information you can receive and distribute.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
If I'm following the general trend of responses here, the next step toward our goal of finding reason is to become a collective of nihilistic atheists. I guess once we stop desiring purpose it will finally be revealed :O
mind_blown.gif
mind_blown.gif
Self Realization and enlightenment (they go hand in hand)
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Self-realization
And to listen and (hopefully) adopt the wisdom of persons such as Manly P Hall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atPzKugzgW0
TURN OFF THE TELEVISION SET
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XufMBXISCGc
Those who think life is just about instant gratification, sex and survival can return to the animal kingdom
Man must also live in accordance with the laws of nature, if man does not seek a balance and adapt/harmonize with nature, then man will be punished by the consequences of his own actions.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Self-realization
And to listen and (hopefully) adopt the wisdom of persons such as Manly P Hall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atPzKugzgW0
TURN OFF THE TELEVISION SET
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XufMBXISCGc
Those who think life is just about instant gratification, sex and survival can return to the animal kingdom
Man must also live in accordance with the laws of nature, if man does not seek a balance and adapt/harmonize with nature, then man will be punished by the consequences of his own actions.
UltimaPooh
Member
There really is no point aside from surviving and exploring.
We got here through random chance and we'll most likely be destroyed by random chance.
We got here through random chance and we'll most likely be destroyed by random chance.
Trent Strong
Banned
wayward archer said:
OK, that makes sense. I was overreacting.
faridmon said:
the thing is with global warming is that we are accelerating change and the earth and biosphere can't keep up. See the current mass extinction event.
t isn't just the co2 we are pumping into the atmosphere either, it is also that we are removing massive natural carbon sinks as well. And I think you are underestimating just how much co2 we've released into the atmosphere in the past 200 years.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I do agree that when you talk about exploiting resources, you're not describing "humanity" but modern capitalism. It really is only one possible way of life, and our lifestyles could be tweaked so that we were actually living within our means and contributing more resources to the planet than we use up.
It's really not that difficult. The average North American uses "5 earths" worth of resources, and people living in Africa use less than one Earth worth of resources. Let's say we did all live like Africans... well then "humanity" would not be consuming resources.. their actions would actually be fully sustainable, and we wouldn't really consider "humans" in that case as inherently resource-consuming at all. We could contribute more energy to the planet than we left behind. While we're not all going to go to Africa, some future technology/lifestyle change could bring us within this goal.
But in terms of purpose, I'd say the point of life, best as I can tell, is "play". It's like a dance. We're all here to live as interesting lives as we can... to "dance" the best we can. End results aren't the real point. The point isn't the destination, but the journey, as they say. So live your life with flair (and that includes the downs as well as the ups... the ins and out of dancing. The musical notes, AND the silence between the notes, form the song. The very necessary yins and yangs).
I don't see how it's possible to give a non-hippy answer, btw. lol
It's really not that difficult. The average North American uses "5 earths" worth of resources, and people living in Africa use less than one Earth worth of resources. Let's say we did all live like Africans... well then "humanity" would not be consuming resources.. their actions would actually be fully sustainable, and we wouldn't really consider "humans" in that case as inherently resource-consuming at all. We could contribute more energy to the planet than we left behind. While we're not all going to go to Africa, some future technology/lifestyle change could bring us within this goal.
But in terms of purpose, I'd say the point of life, best as I can tell, is "play". It's like a dance. We're all here to live as interesting lives as we can... to "dance" the best we can. End results aren't the real point. The point isn't the destination, but the journey, as they say. So live your life with flair (and that includes the downs as well as the ups... the ins and out of dancing. The musical notes, AND the silence between the notes, form the song. The very necessary yins and yangs).
I don't see how it's possible to give a non-hippy answer, btw. lol
You have a point... but at the same time such a statement might not be taken as a declaration of physical facts, but merely poetry.Trent Strong said:
The details are off, but Asimov got it right.wayward archer said:
The current consumption of resources is largely irrelevant so long as the small sliver of singularity continues. If not here then elsewhere. We're just a stepping stone.
narf
Physically we are ash.
Intellectually we are kindling.
double narf
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
The singularity happened already... it was agriculture. It changed everything from the hunter-gatherer lifestyle that was not unlike the existence of other animals. It gave rise to cities, armies, organized religions, monarchies, tanks, computer networks, space travel, videogames, etc. Not really that sexy to sci-fi nerds who think of this stuff and imagine "The Matrix", but there you go.
umop_3pisdn
Member
Consumerism does seem to be a fairly superficial way of addressing existential concerns. I can't really say with any confidence that greed will ever go out of style but I'm sure with time there will be a gradual shift as more people begin to realize that it's not a viable avenue for lasting and substantial contentment, and that being personally responsible for one's impact results in less cognitive dissonance and so at least a slightly less 'tormented' existence.
I know in my case, bettering my own condition is the only reason I could care about ethics, as harming others or our environment presents the conflict: "I claim to want good things for myself, yet I do bad things". As far as I'm concerned it's just a sort of pragmatism for leading less conflicted lives.
I know in my case, bettering my own condition is the only reason I could care about ethics, as harming others or our environment presents the conflict: "I claim to want good things for myself, yet I do bad things". As far as I'm concerned it's just a sort of pragmatism for leading less conflicted lives.
we are tools the universe "uses" to distribute/change atoms/energy
i put quotations around "uses" because that word implies intent, which of course doesn't apply to the universe, and tangentially to us either.
i put quotations around "uses" because that word implies intent, which of course doesn't apply to the universe, and tangentially to us either.
then we as a species will be on this planet forever, until every last one of us are dead and humanity ends.Wii said:
umop_3pisdn
Member
I don't know, I think the mind supersedes matter/energy, awareness being more of an end in itself. We're better off knowing the truth about ourselves than we are the truth about our role in relation to the external universe, since the former is actually more ontologically reliable and essentially results in the same thing.
And I can understand where Wii is coming from. If we just carry on into expansion without examining our appetites then we'd be missing a pretty valuable opportunity to learn before we spread a kind of memetic 'malaise'. It would just become something we'd have to undo later.
edit: I think adopting a phenomenological approach to objective reality is the most sensible.
And I can understand where Wii is coming from. If we just carry on into expansion without examining our appetites then we'd be missing a pretty valuable opportunity to learn before we spread a kind of memetic 'malaise'. It would just become something we'd have to undo later.
edit: I think adopting a phenomenological approach to objective reality is the most sensible.
You summed up what I wanted to write (at first), much better than I ever could (so I didn't end up writing about that angle).BocoDragon said:
Also those that recognize the melody can anticipate the rest of the song
But how many lifetimes will it take for people to remember...
I don't think that will solve our problems, it will just create new ones.Puddles said:
Imagine if every human in history... did not die...
We cannot rest as a collective until we solve all problems
The species is a failure, I'm starting a new one as soon as I get off this rockScrow said:
Lady Gaga and Justin Beiber are the GAME OVER screen for humanity
Trent Strong
Banned
umop_3pisdn said:
I...think I agree with this.
Nocebo said:
There doesn't have to be... but I think having a goal to reach for would help galvanize humanity.
Something with which to gauge and to show that we're moving in the right direction as a species.
It would ultimately help improve human welfare, especially if that overall goal was as simple as improving human welfare.
Without that thing to aim for, like I say, what we do as a species is simply what is emergent from the collective actions of all individuals; which tends towards selfish, high negative externality pursuits.
I mean... we can still have selfish pursuits... but if we were smarter about it, they wouldn't have large negative externalities. But that requires a society that is willing to work together as a whole rather than against each other. But that won't happen until (among other things) there's a notion of collective human purpose.
ElectricBlue187
Member
The switch to post scarcity, if it ever happens, will make our switch to alternative fuels look like a walk in the park. I have no idea how humans could realistically handle that kind of technology
zoukka said:
If the goal of humanity is not to create an ultimate generation, then there is no point. All we'll do is keep on living, fucking and dying in a never-ending hamster wheel. Every generation will have to re-learn the same basic math and science and stand on the shoulders of their predecessors to achieve anything new.
Our goal MUST be to achieve immortality. Otherwise there's no point. I don't buy the argument about robbing future generations of the right to live. The unconceived, never mind the unborn, have no right to life.
Puddles said:
But surely this ultimate generation thing is only a means to an end.
It's not a terrible idea... but if the point of humanity is to 'create the ultimate generation', then what's the point of this ultimate generation?
Surely what their aims and goals are we can also work towards before they get here.
So to whit... what are those aims and goals?
ElectricBlue187
Member
You say that in jest but yes, that is the point. When old people die all of their knowledge and wisdom and know how dies with them. They might be able to impart some of it through writing or training others but that's a really awful alternative to just keeping the guy alive who knows WTF he's doing in the first place.zoukka said:
Yes there are lots of drawbacks like old people get used to stuff and they don't like change but I'm sure we could fix that somehow too
There's a reason why they say "history repeats itself" ... because each successive generation makes the same choices and mistakes the one before did. Real knowledge and learning comes through experience and living.
The only way to overcome that caveat is to live for hundreds of years.
The only way to do that is to truely give yourself over to technology. To merge with it and accept it as part of your "body". It's a gigantic leap that will need to be made, but it will happen.
The only way to overcome that caveat is to live for hundreds of years.
The only way to do that is to truely give yourself over to technology. To merge with it and accept it as part of your "body". It's a gigantic leap that will need to be made, but it will happen.
dinazimmerman
Incurious Bastard
asking "what's the point of humanity?" isn't a good way to initiate a productive discussion. it's too abstract a question (that's putting it nicely, I actually think it's a vague, meaningless question posed only by idle teenagers who possess naively teleological frames of mind). all it does is give an excuse for people to air their moral prejudices and existential musings and repeat silly psuedo-philosophical platitudes
Post materialism is what I'm currently at.
Sold most of my possessions, in 2010
I just have at least 7-8 pairs of clothes, shoes, socks, underwear.
a Laptop - T410 Thinkpad
a Smartphone - Droid X
Seriously if you dump me on a island with warm climate, an 4G internet connection
a Laptop and or Smartphone, a source of food and water, shelter I no longer care.
maybe a hot trap now and then.
in other words I've stopped buying shit... literally besides an ISP sub and some food, rent, etc
I don't fear fires or getting robbed.
Sold most of my possessions, in 2010
I just have at least 7-8 pairs of clothes, shoes, socks, underwear.
a Laptop - T410 Thinkpad
a Smartphone - Droid X
Seriously if you dump me on a island with warm climate, an 4G internet connection
a Laptop and or Smartphone, a source of food and water, shelter I no longer care.
maybe a hot trap now and then.
in other words I've stopped buying shit... literally besides an ISP sub and some food, rent, etc
I don't fear fires or getting robbed.
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