Revelations also has two scenarios. You're just playing them in a set order with the separated Chris and Jill stuff. Even Zero experimented with it in the form of zapping in real time instead of having two self-contained playthroughs. I guess it all evolved into the RE5 co-op eventually.
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What makes Resident Evil 2 so good, anyways?
- Thread starter Haeralis The BRave
- Start date
Revelations also has two scenarios. You're just playing them in a set order with the separated Chris and Jill stuff. Even Zero experimented with it in the form of zapping in real time instead of having two self-contained playthroughs. I guess it all evolved into the RE5 co-op eventually.
Of course it was different. Just saying they kept experimenting with the dual-scenario concept. Or more precisely, it was always part of the series since RE1 did it too.
RE1's had a different system too.
when you played as jill first, when you later played as chris, it wasnt the same story anymore.
RE6 comes close, but all scenarios took place a totally different locations.
No, they don't. A lot of the locations you visit in one campaign will be visited in
Ada's
like separate ways!?
okay, but i still prefer the RE2 system way more.
especially with the leon and claire A/B scenarios.
Muffdraul
Member
With RE1, Jill and Chris were their way of delineating easy mode and hard mode. In fact in the Japanese version, it actually says "Easy" and "Hard" at the character select screen. (Or maybe Normal and Hard, can't remember...) But then they went further and made some changes to their scenarios to make them even more different than simply one being harder than the other. But I wouldn't say any of the differences were so drastic that they actually changed the story itself. Each scenario had different characters that you could save or let perish. But yeah, RE2's "zapping" system was basically the RE1 method taken further, cranked up to 11.
Soodanim
Member
I need to play the N64 version for the analogue control and extra options (that weren't in the GC version because lazy). Until I bought the PSN version I didn't even know about the Ex Battle mode, which left me genuinely shocked in a way I hadn't been for years with a game (somehow I avoided learning that it existed).
Oh don't start saying things like that. It makes me that much sadder when I remember that it will never happen, and even if it did it wouldn't be as good as it should be.
Between Resident Evil 2, 3, Outbreak 1 and Outbreak 2
I love Raccoon City, and wish it would be made or visited again (ORC doesn't count, and I don't even know if they revisit locations in it anyway). The way they overlap areas in multiple games (the RPD, specifically). The way that there's been enough locations visited that you could draw up a fair amount of the city. Hell, I haven't confirmed it but doesn't the RE2 Preview route match up to the RE2 route, with RE2 essentially going in a big loop to get to where 2 Preview takes you?
Edit: Oh wow, it does! At the end of the alley in the RE2 we got you can see the bus that you go through a few minutes later at the end of the alley, there's just a van in the way now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=UPLOAcGkg4s#t=328
Weren't there intentions for more in the final RE2's zapping, but due to [reasons] they went with a cut down version? Or is my memory failing me and combining with 1.5 and my imagination?
Oh don't start saying things like that. It makes me that much sadder when I remember that it will never happen, and even if it did it wouldn't be as good as it should be.
Between Resident Evil 2, 3, Outbreak 1 and Outbreak 2
(and 0, if you count the visit to the RE2 lab)
Edit: Oh wow, it does! At the end of the alley in the RE2 we got you can see the bus that you go through a few minutes later at the end of the alley, there's just a van in the way now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=UPLOAcGkg4s#t=328
Weren't there intentions for more in the final RE2's zapping, but due to [reasons] they went with a cut down version? Or is my memory failing me and combining with 1.5 and my imagination?
Not exactly. While Chris and Jill had parallel (to an extent) scenarios, they didn't really intertwine.
Isao Oishi devised the "zapping system" for 1.5, where the scenarios were more closely linked (Marvin would briefly appear in Elza's, etc). When they decided to remake the game, they also focused on making the zapping system more dramatic, hence the four scenarios.
The castle version of BIO4 had a gameplay goal of taking the zapping system and improving it further. Of course that game got scrapped. In the end, BIO6 could be considered a spiritual successor to the zapping system.
Muffdraul
Member
Right, in fact the two stories were downright incompatible in terms of what happens to each lead character towards the end of each other's scenario... but overall, it's still the same story. They took it much further with RE2. Not just with the intertwining in the zapping, but with A->B vs. B->A. That was really cool. It was literally like getting two different versions of one game.
Yup. This is what they wanted to tackle in that version of BIO4.
On top of that, literally all four scenarios are "canon." Precise events are dictated by later titles and supplemental material, but at the time of release, the story was entirely up to the player. They played with this in the Ada and Sherry drama albums, which were written as alternative universe stories. As you can imagine, the subsequent games play out quite differently.
real_slime
Banned
Haha, I would really, really like to play this. I'd hope, though, that they mix the free-camera sections with forced perspective areas. The forced perspective, hardware limitations aside, is a really big part of what made the first 3 resident evil games so interesting for me. Really detailed backgrounds that are presented as pictures for you to walk around in. The focus is on the environment at least as much if not more than the character. Making it a bit more modern is obviously one of the main purposes of a remake, but I wouldn't want that to be at the expense of one of the central elements of the game.
In that short video I think the free camera works well for the police station lobby, and it would probably work well for a number of other larger, less tense areas, but I'd keep the forced perspective in many of the more foreboding areas. You could do a lot to mess with the player's expectations if you are smart about how and when you employ each kind of camera, too.
Ganondorfo
Junior Member
What happened to the Resident evil 1-3 composer? The new resident evils lack his ambient eerie horror music style.
real_slime
Banned
Well, they aren't really horror games anymore, so the quieter, more melodic and eerie music wouldn't fit in many places. You're just getting bombarded with noise all the time.
Most of the composers no longer work for CAPCOM. Masami Ueda works with Platinum Games now. Makoto Tomozawa left in 2004/5.
pretty sure the new ones lack everything from the old ones, not just music.
badcrumble
Member
Masami Ueda did the RE4 soundtrack too, I'm pretty sure.
RE2 has terrific pacing. Tension ebbs and wanes like the inventory scene electrocardiograph. Clicking through some of the screens and videos in this thread is filling me with nostalgia. I remember running (cause obviously I ran all the time) through the RPD lobby, or the train platform, or the lab entrance, and just soaking up atmosphere in between juking and shooting monsters.
Masterful pacing. The right amount of stress followed by the right amount of relaxation. Games don't have much of that, anymore. The downtime is always filled with chatter, scripted scenes, or lots of background activity. That's not downtime, it's stress in a less interactive form. An empty room, some suitable tunes, and the freedom to run around for a minute without any game mechanic or narrative hook clamoring for attention, is a beautiful thing.
Masterful pacing. The right amount of stress followed by the right amount of relaxation. Games don't have much of that, anymore. The downtime is always filled with chatter, scripted scenes, or lots of background activity. That's not downtime, it's stress in a less interactive form. An empty room, some suitable tunes, and the freedom to run around for a minute without any game mechanic or narrative hook clamoring for attention, is a beautiful thing.
His last game was Devil May Cry. BIO4 was done by Shusaku Uchiyama and Misao Senbongi.
Probably Dreamcast.
Muffdraul
Member
I know nothing about RE music or who composed it... but recently I was playing Bayonetta and I thought "This sounds like whoever did the DMC 1 soundtrack... which, from I recall, sounded like it was by whoever did the RE2 soundtrack."
real_slime
Banned
Yeah, I agree this is an important part of the earlier Resident Evil games. There are a lot of moments which feel really soothing - not just the save rooms, although they are obviously a big part - and it's something you don't get at all in horror games now. I think it's because older survival horror games placed had a stranglehold on their atmosphere. Now, the atmosphere in horror games feels a lot more generic across the whole game beyond frequent action sequences. You just aren't given the time to kind of exist in the world as much. Establishing comfort and calm is important, so that it can be shattered or slowly worn down.
Ganondorfo
Junior Member
The original, Devil May Cry also had creepy music, alright it was done by the original RE composer. I think he also did Dino Crisis music, right. His music reminds me of the good old Carpenter music.
The Praiseworthy
Member
1- The characters and the two scenarios
2- The settings and the atmosphere
3- The Music and the feelings of isolation and horror
4- The puzzles and the weapons
These four pillars made RE2 such a timeless classic good game.
2- The settings and the atmosphere
3- The Music and the feelings of isolation and horror
4- The puzzles and the weapons
These four pillars made RE2 such a timeless classic good game.
I think an entire article could be written about player tension from the end of the opening cutscene to the first bars of the RPD them playing upon entering the lobby. It's a microcosm for the stress->release cycle the game will present for the next several hours. And it maybe never gets any better.
Unrelated:
The RE2 lobby is one of the greatest areas from the entire series. Not just because of the terrific art and music, and not because it represents that first blissful shot of peaceful release. It feels humongous. The room is massive, but more importantly, it's full of things. Doors to the left and right, a second floor, a mysterious statue, and a flickering computer screen. So much opportunity! So many things to investigate! The player has just run a linear gauntlet and their reward is half a dozen possible destinations. Where will we go first!
I love it. RE2 is gaming magic.
It has been a very long time since I played RE 2 on the PS although I still have all the games in good shape this topic made me download all the classic RE games available on PSN.
As for the new gen of RE games IMHO RE 4 has raised the bar so high which made capcom struggle to emulate the success that 4 had as some consider it one of the best game ever made.
From all the news we are hearing it seems that capcom wants to please the fans by trying to take the franchise to it's roots and which we can see them experimenting with a game like Revelations, which makes it very exciting to hear or read any news about the next installment of the series.
As for the new gen of RE games IMHO RE 4 has raised the bar so high which made capcom struggle to emulate the success that 4 had as some consider it one of the best game ever made.
From all the news we are hearing it seems that capcom wants to please the fans by trying to take the franchise to it's roots and which we can see them experimenting with a game like Revelations, which makes it very exciting to hear or read any news about the next installment of the series.
badcrumble
Member
You're right about RE4, but Masami Ueda definitely worked on Okami and Bayonetta.
real_slime
Banned
I just want to throw in that I never liked RE4. I understand the gameplay was very new at the time, and I suppose it is more 'fun' than the older games, but it jettisoned absolutely everything I liked about the series and I guess that was the death of survival horror right there. I'm sure that's been said before in a more positive light, but I think it's a shame RE4 had the effect that it did.
Oh yeah, I meant last BIO-related game.
Muffdraul
Member
RE4 was a double edged sword for me. I can't deny that it's a great game. I've played it a bunch of times across multiple platforms and enjoyed the hell out of it every time. But it's basically "RE in name only" to me. The true blue RE franchise stopped in 2002 for me... RE0 was the last one. After that it turned into something else. To this day it still bums be out when I think about that first RE4 trailer, the one with Leon exploring the weird flying fortress... I really, really wish Mikami had seen that one through to the end instead of shit canning it, dropping its carcass next to RE 1.5's. No, I'm not bitter...
ArkkAngel007
Member
Oddly enough, I didn't find it quite as different as many make it out to be. New camera, context controls, and that godawful third stage on the Island, but largely it seemed Resident Evil, albeit a faster paced and goofier one. It would have probably been a natural feeling evolution to CV if it weren't for REmake and 0 (especially REmake).
If it just weren't for the goddamn OP knife...
Mikami had little to do with scrapping that version of BIO4... or even 1.5.
That BIO4 was scrapped due to excessive cost and the insufficiency of the GameCube hardware to handle what they were aiming for.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
I think the thread here is even thinner on RE4. While it has a lot of differences, I also think its more like RE than some give it credit for. The camera angle changed, but the game still has its iconic tank controls. The Umbrella plot thread was randomly dropped, but then they also continue story threads from previous Resident Evil games, most notably Resident Evil 2. The Castle location is designed like a typical Resident Evil 'main' location, with weird items to collect, traps and mechanisms to overcome, and strangely thematic rooms. Returning weapons for the series. While Ganados and such are new, some of the monsters definitely feel very in-line with RE's monster selection. The three-area rule of thumb old REs followed where there's three main locations. Smaller things, like typewriters to save, rocket launcher to defeat the final boss, and a variety of other things.
I'm not saying that its also not very different, because it is, but it does honestly also feel like a RE game to me. Just with a different direction and the mechanics changes to fit that direction, but not some huge abandonment that doesn't even resemble RE like some make it out to be.
ArkkAngel007
Member
This version? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBA8shVPZ64
What surprises me so much is that...it's similar to Resident Evil 5. Cradle of the progenitor virus, the Uroboros is there, and possession obviously evolved into the Las Plagas of RE4, which also carried over into RE5
(Jill is also 'possessed)
How did I not notice that?
encephalon
Member
At least we got the Dreamcast version ... which, naturally, you brought up on this page. I don't think I can go back (although I'm not sure I want to stick with auto aim disabled Nightmare).
P.S. I'm too lazy to go back to your post, but I'm interested in seeing your upcoming Japanese script translations. I was just thinking of doing the same thing with the original Silent Hill.
Perhaps the castle is as close as it gets to being an iconic location similar to the old RE games, but fundamentally, the older games are more or less puzzle/adventure games with a strong action element, whereas RE4 is an action game with the pretense of a puzzle element in select locations. Both games have their own sense of strategy, but with classic RE it has to do with resource management, planning your routes, etc whereas in RE4 it has to do with how you are going to tackle a given combat situation. And really, the puzzle elements in each game really serve as a device to reinforce their core gameplay. I classic RE, it reinforces the non-linear recursive structure and the item management aspect. In RE4 it's another way of making the combat scenarios more interesting. Rocket launchers are all well and good, but the meat of the games could not be more different.
Neff
Member
I'm afraid this is strictly a matter of interpretation.
But my opinion isn't mine alone, and I've been told by Japanese friends that they enjoy the nonsensical aspects of RE, so I don't think cultural difference is a matter, either.
ArkkAngel007
Member
It's not that different from RE1. More enemies in the game, but not to such hyperbole. Everything else in the game is practically the same.
Sure, Resident Evil is nonsensical. We were talking about Biohazard.
But really, I've heard the opposite from my friends, so it looks like we're at an impasse. Depends on which games though. RE1-3 were pretty cut and dry. CV, Gun Survivors, Gaiden, Outbreak 2 had some out there elements iirc (yeah yeah, GS and Gaiden not canon I know).
Sweet =D
Can't wait to see the differences.
This thread reminded me that I have not finished RE2 for almost 13 years now. I should replay it sometime soon. Also, I have never finished RE3 or CV. On top of all this, I have finished REmake and RE2 with infinite ammo glitches. What was I thinking? Lol.
RE0 I played it proper, and by the end of the game, from how much I conserved resources, I had 100+ handgun ammo, 50+ shotgun shells, all of my gernade launcher ammo, 20+ magnum bullets, and 8 red/green mix with 1 golden mix. The final boss was a joke. This was also an unpleasant experience. I ran from a ton of enemies, and almost every single leech zombie.
Gun Survivor - the first one and Dead Aim - are canon. Sheena Island is even mentioned in the RE Zero intro.
And GS didn't really have any "out there elements". The execution was sloppy, but the story, although a little bit reaching (people thinking that Ark is Vincent just because he told them so), was pretty clear and, uhm, realistic (given it's still Biohazard universe, with zombies, viruses that can cause mutations and all that).
TheVampire
Banned
I think what makes RE2 so good is the setting.
Racoon city was awesome.
RE1 was just mainly the mansion, RE4 was that European village, RE5 was Africa, RE6 was all over the place.
Racoon city was awesome.
RE1 was just mainly the mansion, RE4 was that European village, RE5 was Africa, RE6 was all over the place.
they will implement fixed cameras too.
Check their Facebook page.
Sure, you can chalk it up to interpretation. But that's not the point, the point is that the games are not intended as parodies or intentionally goofy outside of select instances. Having spoken to the developers and writers, their intentions are pretty clear to me.
What "nonsensical" aspects are you referring to? The exaggerated pseudo-science? The unintentionally poor localization or bad acting? None of these make it what you are suggesting.
GS2 CODE:Veronica is also canon.
It's a dream Claire has at the end of CV. The game's events aren't meant to be taken seriously though.Yeah, a few elements were reused. The "Uroboros" enemy was one of the technical difficulties they were having with BIO4. It was difficult to model and animate due to all its individual parts and the GameCube's insufficient hardware. The origin of the Progenitor Virus is completely different, though. It has changed quite a few times with each scrapping of a new game.
Progenitor (originally known as the Clay Virus) originally didn't have anything written about how it was discovered. In the BIO4 version that became Devil May Cry, it was discovered on Mallet Island and "cultured" by the B.O.W. Nightmare from the corpses of ancient humans. The black slime surrounding that boss in DMC is actually the Progenitor Virus.
In the castle version of BIO4, the virus was discovered in the fossilized body of an ancient human (the Uroboros-like enemy and Leon's infection are also completely unrelated to the Progenitor Virus, they are something completely new). During BIO5's development, they toyed with the idea of the virus being from an aquatic plant. This changed to the dandelion-related plant in the final game.
According to Jun Takeuchi, CODE:Veronica stipulated that the virus was discovered in Africa... but I don't know if that's true. The first mention of Africa is actually in BIO0, on the text of the file image of Marcus' Diary but not in the file text itself. It's then mentioned vaguely in GS4.
"Clay" was originally meant to be mentioned in BIO2's files. In-fact the P-Epsilon gas is named after it. But it was removed before release for some reason. Probably because that's exactly when they decided to give it a new name and make it a central mystery in the series.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
Sure, you can chalk it up to interpretation. But that's not the point, the point is that the games are not intended as parodies or intentionally goofy outside of select instances. Having spoken to the developers and writers, their intentions are pretty clear to me.
What "nonsensical" aspects are you referring to? The exaggerated pseudo-science? The unintentionally poor localization or bad acting? None of these make it what you are suggesting.
GS2 CODE:Veronica is also canon.
Yeah, a few elements were reused. The "Uroboros" enemy was one of the technical difficulties they were having with BIO4. It was difficult to model and animate due to all its individual parts and the GameCube's insufficient hardware. The origin of the Progenitor Virus is completely different, though. It has changed quite a few times with each scrapping of a new game.
Progenitor (originally known as the Clay Virus) originally didn't have anything written about how it was discovered. In the BIO4 version that became Devil May Cry, it was discovered on Mallet Island and "cultured" by the B.O.W. Nightmare from the corpses of ancient humans. The black slime surrounding that boss in DMC is actually the Progenitor Virus.
In the castle version of BIO4, the virus was discovered in the fossilized body of an ancient human (the Uroboros-like enemy and Leon's infection are also completely unrelated to the Progenitor Virus, they are something completely new). During BIO5's development, they toyed with the idea of the virus being from an aquatic plant. This changed to the dandelion-related plant in the final game.
According to Jun Takeuchi, CODE:Veronica stipulated that the virus was discovered in Africa... but I don't know if that's true. The first mention of Africa is actually in BIO0, on the text of the file image of Marcus' Diary but not in the file text itself. It's then mentioned vaguely in GS4.
I would think that they must have been thinking of the origin of the virus around Code Veronica because that's the first game that delves more into the virus, with the T-Veronica Virus, the Ashford family, Wesker virus collecting, and all that being introduced. Zero was also in development at the time so I am guessing Africa was decided on around then. And this decision to delve into this was obviously something they threw around a lot as it gets mentioned briefly in the following titles, and a big part of Resident Evil 4's early conceivings were to be about the progenitor virus. Of course that didn't pull through, so they went back to it in RE5.
I am less knowledgeable on these things than you, but in my imagination, after Mikami leaving Capcom and other staff members after RE4, Capcom must of been at least somewhat worried about the future of the RE franchise. I mean, after the creator of Mega Man left they all but killed off Mega Man, so they must put a lot of power and faith in their creators (or the creators really manage their projects), but Resident Evil isn't a franchise they would just let go on account its one of their top selling game series. So they most likely worked very closely to the sort of design stuff of RE4, and pulled unused ideas from the vault for reference of where to go forward. I don't have any evidence to support my claims, but Resident Evil 5 follows Resident Evil 4 very closely in a lot of ways (obviously very different, but similar structure), and I think is the title in the series that most blatantly takes ideas they had in the past but never used. I'm also guessing that is part of the reason Resident Evil 5 ended up with co-op and had a heavier action focus, it was a very 'safe' direction to go at the time as those things were/are popular.
It's at least always been my guess on why Resident Evil 5 is how it is. It always struck me Resident Evil 5 is what it is because it was trying to be very safe and find its footing after a fallout, especially as other fallouts at Capcom usually show that Capcom sort of leaves everything up to their creators. Which is a good and bad thing.
CAPCOM were not worried about Mikami leaving, at least to the point where it affected development. He was already barely involved in the series and didn't have an active development role (he spent most of his time balancing the money). BIO5 began development shortly before or soon after BIO4's release. Mikami wasn't involved from the start.
CAPCOM don't care that much about the original creators. In their eyes, there are a dozen others able to do the job just as well. This line of thinking actually extends beyond just game directors. It's the same for artists, programmers, planners, etc. It makes it very hard for employees to negotiate better paid positions in particular.
BIO5 is what it is simply because of poorly conceived design in some areas. It took what it saw as a success in BIO4 and amplified it to a detriment. At the same time, it's still a well-made game... just not a great BIO. They've always taken ideas from previous game design drafts. They'd be idiots not to, honestly.
Yes, they began working on a backstory for the virus when it was renamed Progenitor. It was always intended as a "superhuman virus" because that tied into its elements seen in the likes of the t-Virus. Its purpose is to strengthen a host, but it wasn't adaptable to modern humans, so the more adaptable t-Virus was needed but was imperfect-- hence strengthened monsters. This tied in directly to Wesker's revival and was meant to be explained in BIO4 with Spencer, Dante and Vergil all with the same powers, red eyes and such.
The actual characteristics and nature of the Progenitor Virus have been the same ever since its backstory was first established. The only change has been its origin.
CAPCOM don't care that much about the original creators. In their eyes, there are a dozen others able to do the job just as well. This line of thinking actually extends beyond just game directors. It's the same for artists, programmers, planners, etc. It makes it very hard for employees to negotiate better paid positions in particular.
BIO5 is what it is simply because of poorly conceived design in some areas. It took what it saw as a success in BIO4 and amplified it to a detriment. At the same time, it's still a well-made game... just not a great BIO. They've always taken ideas from previous game design drafts. They'd be idiots not to, honestly.
Yes, they began working on a backstory for the virus when it was renamed Progenitor. It was always intended as a "superhuman virus" because that tied into its elements seen in the likes of the t-Virus. Its purpose is to strengthen a host, but it wasn't adaptable to modern humans, so the more adaptable t-Virus was needed but was imperfect-- hence strengthened monsters. This tied in directly to Wesker's revival and was meant to be explained in BIO4 with Spencer, Dante and Vergil all with the same powers, red eyes and such.
The actual characteristics and nature of the Progenitor Virus have been the same ever since its backstory was first established. The only change has been its origin.
The dog scene from RE1 makes RE2 so good?
Sanctuary
Member
Technically Biohazard 2 Sourcenext is.
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