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What makes Twilight Princess such a weird experience?
- Thread starter Battersea Power Station
- Start date
civilstrife
Member
I think the game was badly hurt by the wolf segments. Not so much the mechanic itself, but the way it broke up the action and the time between dungeons. The whole point of these segments were to make the player want to become normal Link again as soon as possible. You know you have a problem when the goal of a large portion of a game is to inspire the player to get it over with quickly.
MiamiWesker
Member
civilstrife said:
I thought the wolf segments were great, nice change of pace from the usual. I couldn't wait until I could freely turn into the wolf, great game mechanic, reminiscent of MM.
evilromero
Member
I played through it twice, getting all the poes and whatnot. I disagree with the uninspired part. I felt it was the most inspired 3D Zelda game. I really enjoyed the previous 3D entries but TP just felt so immense and organic.
Phantom Hourglass is a game that was made to show that a stylus can be used to play an entire Zelda game. Dungeon design ultimately factored into this, but it was an afterthought to the controls. Twilight Princess is similar in that it was made for the fans that wanted another Ocarina of Time after years of rush jobs (TMC excluded). It's pretty apparent. However it was the game that I had expected it to be, and the dungeon design is the best in the 3D series.
As much as I'm glad they created something I enjoyed so much, I prefer it when a developer gets to do exactly what they want to do (well, excluding that whole "restricted by franchise history" thing). I don't think we've seen one of those in the console Zelda series since Majora's Mask. TWW was restricted by the GC hardware (oceans... oceans...) and TP was all fanservice.
As much as I'm glad they created something I enjoyed so much, I prefer it when a developer gets to do exactly what they want to do (well, excluding that whole "restricted by franchise history" thing). I don't think we've seen one of those in the console Zelda series since Majora's Mask. TWW was restricted by the GC hardware (oceans... oceans...) and TP was all fanservice.
Its funny because it's true. :lolAmir0x said:
Anyway, I have the same feelings as the OP about Twilight Princess. I think its because the pacing was atrocious, with too much collecting at the start, and the game feels like a dungeon marathon at the end.
Also I think the lttp/oot style Zelda has reached the point of "its been done" and its time for Nintendo to move on to something else.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
DID YOU HAVE FUN? THAT IS THE QUESTION.
These retrospectives only ruin your memory so why do you do it? I enjoyed the variety and great artictic design. Im not going to dwell on the fact that i went to death mountain again. It was only death mountain by name.
These retrospectives only ruin your memory so why do you do it? I enjoyed the variety and great artictic design. Im not going to dwell on the fact that i went to death mountain again. It was only death mountain by name.
CajoleJuice
Member
You're new here, so I'll let you in on a secret. The less time you spend here, the more you'll enjoy gaming.Gamer @ Heart said:
POWERSPHERE
Member
speedpop said:
:|
Gamer @ Heart
Member
CajoleJuice said:
Oh i know. Im a sales age guy.
Drinky Crow
Banned
Bit-Bit said:
no. smg is great, and the art direciton is transcendent, but it's technically sub-xbox in every way imaginable.
The mansion dungeon is the best Zelda dungeon ever made.
In fact, almost all the dungeons in the game were pretty amazing. It was just the BETWEEN DUNGEON content that was somewhat lacking, including the overworld.
I mean come on, Goron Mines? Awesome. Snowpeak ruins? Awesome. Arbiter's Grounds? Awesome.
In fact, almost all the dungeons in the game were pretty amazing. It was just the BETWEEN DUNGEON content that was somewhat lacking, including the overworld.
I mean come on, Goron Mines? Awesome. Snowpeak ruins? Awesome. Arbiter's Grounds? Awesome.
DjangoReinhardt
Thinks he should have been the one to kill Batman's parents.
People calling it a bad game are a small minority. What you're reading here is criticism. Big difference.the thoroughbred said:
Thunder Monkey
Banned
I wouldn't say subXbox level, but in all ways that matter I agree with the sentiment. Technically I'd say it ranks up there with the Xbox best, but has a killer art team to go along with it. Going further with similar hardware.Drinky Crow said:
It's the closest thing we've seen to "other consoles in SD", but the differences are still there, as they will be all generation.
Drinky Crow
Banned
Thunder Monkey said:
nah. that award goes to chronicles of riddick or rallisport challenge 2. or perhaps the screenshots of rogue leader or silent hill 3.
Drinky Crow said:
If you choose Riddick, then Doom 3 has the edge over it. As for rallisport, I personally have never played. I wouldn't say any of those. Instead, I would go with Ninja Gaiden. That game was leaps and bounds better looking than any xbox game. In fact, whenever I play it on 360, it looks so good that anyone watching would believe that it is in fact a 360 title.
the thoroughbred
Member
Amir0x said:
Mamesj said:
Ok slightly misleading. I didn't actually do that. Well the acid part anyway, nor did I actually watch Alice in Wonderland till I was 19-20. But what I was trying to describe was the concoction of feelings. I have experienced all these things separately I was prolly 8 when I went Florida though, and that mixture is what I was trying to say.
Although I was quite the hardcore user. I've had to go clean out for the last 6 months, so I don't go down the wrong road in life.
EDIT: I don't think anyone read the second half of my post. No replies to the important parts.
the androgyne
Member
I enjoyed the first half of the game that had the tear hunts, because it broke up the play a bit, though having said that, if they'd have continued them to the end of the game i would have been sick to death of them - so i think they stopped at the right time.
The problem was they didn't replace it within anything interesting. Most of the land discovery is out of the way by that point and so finding the next dungeon was a matter of talking to the right couple of people in a row and that was it, do the dungeon and repeat.
So i thought the build up was great in the first half, but then it just lost it's pace. I was half expecting a new land or something that wasn't obviously waiting on the map to be uncovered, but it never happened.
The map is of course huge and realistic, which isn't a problem in itself, but you get the impression that it was only huge because people begged for huge. As a result, they didn't really consider the repercussion's of having a realistic map as much as they should have. There's not enough people, there's not enough towns and there's not enough interesting stuff going on other than everyone waiting around to see if the girl gets her memory back.
Most Zelda's also have this problem where as the game goes on, you become so strong and so familiar with the way the levels are going to work (you can predict stuff), that the difficulty curve is shot, and later levels don't pose as much threat as earlier ones (in terms of puzzle difficulty as well as enemy difficulty) - and you get the feeling that you're just going through the motions.
Are any of the dungeons really ordered in an accurate difficulty curve? Even OOT's dungeons had this problem, the Desert Collossus was a room by room piece of cake compared to Forest or Water. That brings me to thinking that they should adopt the 'any dungeon any order' idea, but they'll never do it, cause they can't control the flow of the game or have a detailed cohesive story without having a (somewhat hidden) linear progression. So they need to make the later dungeons harder - this was best done in LTTP IMO.
Here's a probably stupid idea - maybe at the beginning of the game link should walk into a cave (yes, that cave) with every fucking item, and as he goes through the game he becomes cursed or something and gradually loses items. The difficulty would increase and they could come up with some puzzles that relied on preconceived ideas of 'i need that weapon' - but you don't have it, so figure it out a different way. Of course, it's no fun having no items
Finally, Midna and her story was great, but seemingly at the expense of Zelda's significance in the story - who was virtually not needed at all. By the end i got the feeling that it didn't even have to be called a Zelda game.
All that said, anyone who thinks it's not better than TWW is just plain wrong. I still can't believe Jabun just hands over that third pearl, or how, for the sake of having some fancy music playing on the C-stick, you have to interrupt the already slow as ocean just to turn around. Maybe if they'd have spent another year on TWW it would have been up there with the best.
The problem was they didn't replace it within anything interesting. Most of the land discovery is out of the way by that point and so finding the next dungeon was a matter of talking to the right couple of people in a row and that was it, do the dungeon and repeat.
So i thought the build up was great in the first half, but then it just lost it's pace. I was half expecting a new land or something that wasn't obviously waiting on the map to be uncovered, but it never happened.
The map is of course huge and realistic, which isn't a problem in itself, but you get the impression that it was only huge because people begged for huge. As a result, they didn't really consider the repercussion's of having a realistic map as much as they should have. There's not enough people, there's not enough towns and there's not enough interesting stuff going on other than everyone waiting around to see if the girl gets her memory back.
Most Zelda's also have this problem where as the game goes on, you become so strong and so familiar with the way the levels are going to work (you can predict stuff), that the difficulty curve is shot, and later levels don't pose as much threat as earlier ones (in terms of puzzle difficulty as well as enemy difficulty) - and you get the feeling that you're just going through the motions.
Are any of the dungeons really ordered in an accurate difficulty curve? Even OOT's dungeons had this problem, the Desert Collossus was a room by room piece of cake compared to Forest or Water. That brings me to thinking that they should adopt the 'any dungeon any order' idea, but they'll never do it, cause they can't control the flow of the game or have a detailed cohesive story without having a (somewhat hidden) linear progression. So they need to make the later dungeons harder - this was best done in LTTP IMO.
Here's a probably stupid idea - maybe at the beginning of the game link should walk into a cave (yes, that cave) with every fucking item, and as he goes through the game he becomes cursed or something and gradually loses items. The difficulty would increase and they could come up with some puzzles that relied on preconceived ideas of 'i need that weapon' - but you don't have it, so figure it out a different way. Of course, it's no fun having no items
Finally, Midna and her story was great, but seemingly at the expense of Zelda's significance in the story - who was virtually not needed at all. By the end i got the feeling that it didn't even have to be called a Zelda game.
All that said, anyone who thinks it's not better than TWW is just plain wrong. I still can't believe Jabun just hands over that third pearl, or how, for the sake of having some fancy music playing on the C-stick, you have to interrupt the already slow as ocean just to turn around. Maybe if they'd have spent another year on TWW it would have been up there with the best.
I love the game, I've beaten it twice and have the urge to back through a third time. It has some of the best dungeons, bosses, and moments in the Zelda series and in the end I believe it will go down as one of the better installments in the series. These threads give me deja vu because I remember the exact same thing happening with Wind Waker's release. Up until just last year Wind Waker was reviled, most people I know fucking hated it and thought it was the worst thing ever released. Now? General consensus is that it's a fan favorite and a modern classic. I always liked the game but I was pretty shocked by the turn-around most people had with it. Anyway, the same thing is happening with Twilight Princess and I'd bet money that by 2009 most people will remember it fondly. Everyone begged Nintendo for OoT2 and that's exactly what they got. I can't say I'm surprised by the negative backlash, most forum monkeys are semi-retarded in that respect but they'll come around. It just takes time.
Also, Okami isn't better than TP because Issun will not shut the fuck up.
Also, Okami isn't better than TP because Issun will not shut the fuck up.
And the combat is ass.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
All of them hold up well is what I'm getting at. And given enough time and money we should see more games of that ilk on the Wii.Drinky Crow said:
hockeypuck
Member
My two small gripes are the presence of not just one but two ghost towns, places where, uh, "soul" could have been brought in.
If the development team wanted to portray Kakariko Village in a depressing light, they certainly achieved that. I never looked forward to revisiting that location.
"There's a Sheikah village? Sweet! Western shoot-out? Awesome! Sheikah obsolete and now free real estate? Oh no"
Second experience that makes TP weird: when Ganondorf only takes off a single heart with a full swing (as the one sticking example in my head for the difficulty complaint).
Other than that, this was indeed a fucking awesome game and one of my 2006 favorites.
If the development team wanted to portray Kakariko Village in a depressing light, they certainly achieved that. I never looked forward to revisiting that location.
"There's a Sheikah village? Sweet! Western shoot-out? Awesome! Sheikah obsolete and now free real estate? Oh no"
Second experience that makes TP weird: when Ganondorf only takes off a single heart with a full swing (as the one sticking example in my head for the difficulty complaint).
Other than that, this was indeed a fucking awesome game and one of my 2006 favorites.
AgentOtaku
Member
damn....just damn!
this thread is both exhaustive yet awesome!
this thread is both exhaustive yet awesome!
I don't know what it was. Yeah, something seemed off a bit, but Zelda: Twilight Princess is still one of the best games of this generation. As a Zelda game it was the best one yet... even if it was a bit too much of a re-tread (spelling?)
The dungeon design was near-flawless, however, and I actually felt attached to characters like Midna, Ilia, and the boys. The storyline was the best in the series, despite that being the least Zelda part of the game. Control-wise, the pinpoint accuracy of the Wii Remote made me actually enjoy whipping out the Bow and using it.
However, yes, I do wish there was as much character interaction as there was in Majora's Mask... or that the whole world at least not be that barren. The landscapes were beautiful. Part of the beauty of the 2D Zelda games is that there's always something important to do two or three screens away. I didn't get that feeling with Twilight Princess. And everything like the Golden Bug collecting just felt thrown in to make me observe the landscape more.
The dungeon design was near-flawless, however, and I actually felt attached to characters like Midna, Ilia, and the boys. The storyline was the best in the series, despite that being the least Zelda part of the game. Control-wise, the pinpoint accuracy of the Wii Remote made me actually enjoy whipping out the Bow and using it.
However, yes, I do wish there was as much character interaction as there was in Majora's Mask... or that the whole world at least not be that barren. The landscapes were beautiful. Part of the beauty of the 2D Zelda games is that there's always something important to do two or three screens away. I didn't get that feeling with Twilight Princess. And everything like the Golden Bug collecting just felt thrown in to make me observe the landscape more.
Pretty easy to nail why it was a weird experience for me...
-The gameplay was getting deeper, with tonnes of new moves.
-You had to track down howling stones etc to unlock moves. Tedious.
-They'd give the enemies new properties, forcing you to use these new moves,
and then ruin it by giving you an on screen display, telling you which move to use!
It's like they were heading in exactly the direction I wanted, deeper gameplay, more moves, more defensive options for enemies, etc,
then then totally ruin it by holding your hand through each little component of each battle.
Why not let us figure it out? In every other action game, you look at what the enemy is doing, look at your move list,
and then choose the appropriate move. In ZTP, they bloody tell you exactly what to do and when.
OOT and ZMM were a fair bit tougher than ZTP. You had to figure stuff out. They introduced genuinely new elements not just to the series, but to gaming.
ZTP borrows stuff from other games, and does it worse.
Still, it was fairly enjoyable. I just wish the developers would give us some credit. How old do they think the average Zelda fan is? 10 years old?
-The gameplay was getting deeper, with tonnes of new moves.
-You had to track down howling stones etc to unlock moves. Tedious.
-They'd give the enemies new properties, forcing you to use these new moves,
and then ruin it by giving you an on screen display, telling you which move to use!
It's like they were heading in exactly the direction I wanted, deeper gameplay, more moves, more defensive options for enemies, etc,
then then totally ruin it by holding your hand through each little component of each battle.
Why not let us figure it out? In every other action game, you look at what the enemy is doing, look at your move list,
and then choose the appropriate move. In ZTP, they bloody tell you exactly what to do and when.
OOT and ZMM were a fair bit tougher than ZTP. You had to figure stuff out. They introduced genuinely new elements not just to the series, but to gaming.
ZTP borrows stuff from other games, and does it worse.
Still, it was fairly enjoyable. I just wish the developers would give us some credit. How old do they think the average Zelda fan is? 10 years old?
TP was absolutely fantastic. I just finished it fairly recently, and my desire for a second play through is powerful; just gotta make it through exams! Like many others my only major gripe was with the difficulty, but many Zelda's have this problem. Once you stock up on a few fairy filled bottles you're very often good to go.
This is precisely what I'm feeling as I read through this thread.
This...this powerful dislike for Zelda seems so familiar.
Spire said:
This is precisely what I'm feeling as I read through this thread.
This...this powerful dislike for Zelda seems so familiar.
And exactly what academic discipline are you a master of, if I might ask? And personal experience?! please do elaborate.Dolphin said:
Lets take classicism for example, how would you expect someone who has never seen a roman/greek temple or a classistic build building, to appriciate the iconic significance of a flat triangle with pillars underneath?
I never claimed I was an expert.
Likewise.
You don't think one of the most expressive faces this side if HL2 is enough character?
And anyway, Link is an iconic character. He is the archetypal hero. You are Link. He is not an individual character as such. He is more of a traveling spirit, that can inhabit anyone.
If you need a human figure anyone can identify with on some level, a boy is ideal, as everyone has been a child (an children are more alike than adults in looks) and he is not to manly to make females become detached.
Nightbringer
Don´t hit me for my bad english plase
From my point of view the game collided with two forms of thinking inside Nintendo, the first one wanted to make the best Zelda of all and the second one to make a game that was accesible for everyone, at the end the mixture has affected the final design of the game.
One of the problems is that in Ocarina of Time, Majora´s Mask and Wind Waker the situations were different but when you have to collect 3 times pieces of light from invisible cocroaches then you see that something fails here and this something is that the game was designed for videogame amateurs.
A lot of people says that sailing in Wind Waker was boring, at least with the sailing I could explore the sea and find new islands, even the photo and figures sidequest in Wind Waker was more fun than the sidequest of Twilight Princess. But the most fatal error from my point of view is that in every corner Mirna can make a portal until the point that it becomes ridiculous because I can travel around the map only using Mirna hability.
My opinion is that when you want to make accesible a saga for the current gamer to new publics you could end killing part of the original feeling of the saga, Twilight Princess can be played like any other Zelda and is better than any other 3D Zelda but... it isn´t perfect.
One of the problems is that in Ocarina of Time, Majora´s Mask and Wind Waker the situations were different but when you have to collect 3 times pieces of light from invisible cocroaches then you see that something fails here and this something is that the game was designed for videogame amateurs.
A lot of people says that sailing in Wind Waker was boring, at least with the sailing I could explore the sea and find new islands, even the photo and figures sidequest in Wind Waker was more fun than the sidequest of Twilight Princess. But the most fatal error from my point of view is that in every corner Mirna can make a portal until the point that it becomes ridiculous because I can travel around the map only using Mirna hability.
My opinion is that when you want to make accesible a saga for the current gamer to new publics you could end killing part of the original feeling of the saga, Twilight Princess can be played like any other Zelda and is better than any other 3D Zelda but... it isn´t perfect.
neoism
Member
I agree with a lot of peoples views about TP, I loved it. But Zelda games are becoming something of an "Out of Date" affair. I enjoyed Okami far more than TP, I found it more inspired and a more beautiful game. Zelda games has used the same formula for far too long. I just recently bought Zelda Phantom Hourglass, and while a great game. It has one of the most tedious dungeons in any videogame I've ever played. The sailing is worse also in Wind Waker at least you got to sail, in PH you watch it. I'm total not bashing Zelda games, I'm a huge fucking fan, I bought TP and had it for 2 months and couldn't play it because I didn't have a Wii, I just had to buy it day one. I can atone some of my greatest memories with Zelda games, LTTP is my favorite Zelda game ever, followed closely behind OOT(they are also in my top three favorite games ever list). I can say now though PH will be my last Zelda game. Unless the next installment is drastically different, and changes its gameplay mechanic.
What makes TP a weird experience for me is that the first and second halves of the game feel really disconnected from one another... the first half hints at a really messed up story, where you're trying to find the secrets of the twilight world and are trying to fight back the darkness encroaching on the land, and the second half
. What I never got is
Still, the dungeons were fantastic, and the refinements to the game (in terms of control and technology) put it over OOT for me as far as 3D Zeldas go.
basically retreads the classic Zelda story of - find items in dungeons and defeat Ganondorf
after you bring Midna to the castle, the story seems to halt... when you see that giant pyramid hovering over Hyrule Castle, why doesn't anyone in the village say anything, just continue going on with their lives like nothing happened?
Still, the dungeons were fantastic, and the refinements to the game (in terms of control and technology) put it over OOT for me as far as 3D Zeldas go.