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What Metroid Other M Prime series
- Thread starter gafneo
- Start date
You're actually correct.
I have to say that SSB having Samus use anything other than her beam shocked me a little as it doesn't seem that is something Samus would do in game.
I mean past the GB and NES games, there's no reason why they couldn't make her use her body to attack after all (there was enough buttons to make that a possibility on SNES after all).
Samus's animations were always well taken care off in NES/GC/SNES so I guess that's where the nimble impression came from.
She doesn't controls as well as Mario, Sonic or other more traditional platformers so it made sense.
Metroid: Other M was the essence of 2D Metroid in a 3D space, and compliments the other Metroid games than replacing or outclassing them by going in a different direction with its structure and presentation.
Although Yoshio Sakamoto was in charge of the project as producer and imposed the limit of using a Wii Remote only to reproduce NES style gameplay, Metroid: Other M was a collaborative project between Nintendo SPD1, Team Ninja (Tecmo-Koei), and D-Rockets (cinematics).
Iwata Asks
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/metroid-other-m/0/0
The Challenge of Other M interview
https://youtu.be/DHPZSrG4AXY
https://youtu.be/6zPkFzMR_9k
Team Ninja handled the development of gameplay while the story was by Sakamoto.
http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/716536/team-ninjas-yosuke-hayashi-talks-ninja-gaiden-3/
Although Yoshio Sakamoto was in charge of the project as producer and imposed the limit of using a Wii Remote only to reproduce NES style gameplay, Metroid: Other M was a collaborative project between Nintendo SPD1, Team Ninja (Tecmo-Koei), and D-Rockets (cinematics).
Iwata Asks
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/metroid-other-m/0/0
The Challenge of Other M interview
https://youtu.be/DHPZSrG4AXY
https://youtu.be/6zPkFzMR_9k
Team Ninja handled the development of gameplay while the story was by Sakamoto.
http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/716536/team-ninjas-yosuke-hayashi-talks-ninja-gaiden-3/
Simbabbad
Member
I do, and was looking forward seeing the concept be extended on Wii U, then the mass hysteria/meme started, and it had no chance of happening.
I actually wrote about Other M to highlight all of its qualities, but the text isn't in English, and I certainly won't bother translating my points to have that debate here, I know what it'll turn into. What's amusing is that back then, liking Other M was a perfectly accepted opinion, then it spiralled into bizarro territory, and now, liking it basically makes you Phil Fish.
BTW, it should be accepted that sales don't mean much. Metroid has never been a huge seller, especially not in 3D, the Wii was basically dead and rotten by piracy when it released, and the little audience it could have had was alienated by its weird 2D/3D action game formula. Regardless of any quality it might have had, it never had a chance.
Indeed.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
That's equally hilarious as it is horrifying.
Im not sure how exactly you came to tgis conclusion, but it really does not apply to the situation.
Gameplay is only one aspect of a games design. And its not something that is mutually exclusive to other aspects, like world and progression design, or as you expressed it 'adventure element'.
Mario is not a singular entity, it has very distinctive design ethos in each 'mario' series, most so obviously different they dont need to be mentioned, but others are different design approaches within similar game types.
An example of that would be the difference in design between 3d marios of the mario 64 lineage, and the 2d marios including 3dworld/land, which perfectly brings this design into 3d.
The galaxies are very clearly of the same design movement as mario 64 and sunshine. They are fundamentally different from the ground up from 3d world, which has the design of 2d marios, brought into 3d.
The galaxies gameplay is spot on, but its world and progression design has become increasingly simplistic and lacking in engagement. This doesnt make the series anything like 3d world its still completely different from the mostst findamental level on up, it makes it a more linearly simplistic game from mario 64's school of design.
This is the same area of design ALL of Nintendos franchises are atrophying. Zelda, metroid, adventure mario. If adventure progression design was an important part of a nintendo series identity, its gotten worse and worse and worse over the past generations.
GustyGardens
Banned
Prime has a fantastic score, that's not debatable. However, for the style of the game I tend to lean towards the series of vignettes that made up The Other M soundtrack. I liked the remixes, for the most part, and enjoyed the soundscapes. The Prime soundtrack, and I'm really only talking about the first one, has a more beat oriented score. Thinking about it, a better comparison would be to say that Other M has more in common with the Resident Evil soundtrack than Prime. It's a series of vignettes, rather than memorable songs. I use the word song loosely, by the way.
I liked the simplistic style of the Other M title screen, just as much as I liked the alien-tech vibe of Primes.
It's very much how I feel about score in David Lynch movies. I really like them, but they're really not memorable save for a few of the more melodic tracks.
Its just....Other M's story is a toxic mass that eats away at every good point Other M has, to the point its really hard to ignore. At least, that's how I felt when I put the controller down
. I'm happy you enjoyed the game and its great to express how much you liked it
! Sadly, I just disagree with the fact its a good game just because the story is so horrible and I hate what they do to Samus as a character X(.The good points (the shift back into 2D-like gameplay, how agile Samus acts, elements from both Super Metroid and Prime coming into the picture) are there and even though it was very linear, it was fun to turn the brain off and kill everything in sight.
I understand where you are coming from with how you feel about the communities reaction to the game, as due to being a Sonic Fan, I am VERY used to people shitting on games I found enjoyment in and consider great (Sonic Unleashed for example). You live and learn from it and it sounds like you are fine dealing with it.
Overall, I'm glad you enjoyed Other M and I'm sorry I didn't enjoy it like you did
. But we all have our opinions .balladofwindfishes
Member
It compliments other Metroid games without replacing them?
A huge portion of the story is spent basically retconning the entire backstory of Samus from the Manga and Zero Mission. Chozo aren't mentioned at all, despite having a huge influence on not only Samus as a character, but Zero Mission and all three Prime games in their stories. I'm so sad, I have no parents, someone love me! Wait Samus, didn't you have adopted Chozo parents that loved you dearly and gave you your powers? Oh right. Well, Other M forgot they existed and so did Samus apparently.
Portions of the story also contradict Fusion (a game that Other M is supposed to be a direct prequel to), along with Prime. Other M literally having the same twist as Fusion also makes some of the stuff Samus says in Fusion into contradictions. It makes her look like an idiot in Fusion. "HOW COULD THEY DO THIS" I don't know Samus, they did it before, don't you rememeber? The other big twist in Other M is there are Metroids immune to ice who are unstoppable. But Prime Samus has been there and did that already and lived to tell the tale. Anyone who got to that point having played Prime and thought for a minute would probably remember you fight Metroids in Prime long before you get Ice Beam. Then you fight a huge radioactive super Metroid (who is immune to everything but its own energy). Then you fight that super radioactive Metroid two more times after it clones you. And that Samus recolor ends up being a better big boss villain than the next point.
It also turns big, one eyed brain, genius computer, abomination Mother Brain into a little girl. And normally crafty and intelligent pirates into hive minded insects. Despite the actual hive minded insect pirates also being in the game (Kihunters) so there was no real reason for the zebes style pirates to be mindless.
Samus' interactions with Ridley make no sense with past Metroid game and no sense with future games in the time line. She freaks out at a clone of Ridley, but the next mission she meets undead melting zombie Ridley X and doesn't even react at all? Yea, right. If anything Ridley X would be the scariest thing Samus had seen at that point. She also had beaten Ridley no less than 5 times by this point in time. The original, twice as a cyborg, once as a super duper radioactive cyborg and finally as regular Ridley back alive for whatever reason. Oh yea, and a robot Ridley prototype. Did she freak out at all? Nope. In fact, in Prime and Super, chasing the resurrected Ridley is the whole reason she lands on the planet the game takes place on. She actively seeks out Ridley! Twice!
It totally tried to replace past games and retcon parts of Fusion. Samus is so out of character the entire game, they had to have wanted to do that.
Pitch Black Flint
Member
Metroid Prime was great. The sequels weren't. Prime 2 was fun, but only in a "more of the same" sense and I have no desire whatsoever to replay it because of the overly convoluted world design. Prime 3 was pretty much garbage in that it tried unsuccessfully to change the formula and I'm guessing Nintendo gave Retro more freedom with the art direction because it took it about as far away from Metroid as it can go. And I know Hunters was by a different team, but, god, was that game awful. So, no, since the Prime series has been on a steady decline since the sequel, I don't really want another game in the series made by Retro and definitely not NST.
Other M, on the other hand, had potential. It brought the series' art direction and the gameplay back closer to the Super Metroid and Fusion games. I don't really care about the story or how Holy Mother Samus was portrayed in the game. It was a good game, and I'd like to see this direction continue for the Metroid series without some of its obvious flaws such as the linear level design and the stupid "pixel hunt" sections.
Other M, on the other hand, had potential. It brought the series' art direction and the gameplay back closer to the Super Metroid and Fusion games. I don't really care about the story or how Holy Mother Samus was portrayed in the game. It was a good game, and I'd like to see this direction continue for the Metroid series without some of its obvious flaws such as the linear level design and the stupid "pixel hunt" sections.
Other M's story is a toxic mass that distracts from the fact other m was more than just a horrible metroid game, it was the very the very antithesis of a metroid game.
No, seriously, make a list of all the things that make metroid, metroid.
Now take each line on the list and write its exact opposite. It describes other M to a T.
We all would, but itsbecoming increasingly obvious nintendo no longer knows how to, or either doesnt WANT to make that kind of metroid game anymore.
As for your concerns with Retro, they are both understandable, and resolved.
What you are talking about with prime was the direct result of retros leadership, Namely Mark Pacini...Whoco.pletely agrees with you on what he did to metroid after prime by the way. Honestly isalot harder on himself than I think he should be....
However that influenceis no longer a part of retro, as he and a few others left to form armature.
If you need proof go look at that sidescrolling arkham game made by them. You will see the absolute worst aspects of the metroids after prime distilled and dialed up to 11.
A perfect situation for retro to make another metroid, with some oversight from the classic r&d1 team. Its all about checks and balances.
No, seriously, make a list of all the things that make metroid, metroid.
Now take each line on the list and write its exact opposite. It describes other M to a T.
We all would, but itsbecoming increasingly obvious nintendo no longer knows how to, or either doesnt WANT to make that kind of metroid game anymore.
As for your concerns with Retro, they are both understandable, and resolved.
What you are talking about with prime was the direct result of retros leadership, Namely Mark Pacini...Whoco.pletely agrees with you on what he did to metroid after prime by the way. Honestly isalot harder on himself than I think he should be....
However that influenceis no longer a part of retro, as he and a few others left to form armature.
If you need proof go look at that sidescrolling arkham game made by them. You will see the absolute worst aspects of the metroids after prime distilled and dialed up to 11.
A perfect situation for retro to make another metroid, with some oversight from the classic r&d1 team. Its all about checks and balances.
I think Samus' movement worked for the Prime games and I don't have a problem with it but it's definitely not reminscent of the 2D games in which she felt lithe and acrobatic despite her power suit.
The Metroid series feels a bit orphaned right now with one of its creators (Sakamoto) having lost trust. I guess Retro Studios is the closest thing to a home for Samus at this point but even they haven't made a Metroid game in almost a decade and MP3: Corruption, while good, departed more from the Metroid forumla than the previous games of the trilogy.
IMO, the fundamental design of Metroid would result in difficult games. Samus starts off weak and is thrown into an immense labyrinth with very little guidance. This doesn't fit the modern definition of accessibility and it takes a lot of guts to make difficult games when they're so expensive to develop. I think Prime was inspired by classic Metroid, Echoes doubled down, and Corruption backed off. I suspect that Prime 4 will be more like Corruption than Echoes.
The Metroid series feels a bit orphaned right now with one of its creators (Sakamoto) having lost trust. I guess Retro Studios is the closest thing to a home for Samus at this point but even they haven't made a Metroid game in almost a decade and MP3: Corruption, while good, departed more from the Metroid forumla than the previous games of the trilogy.
IMO, the fundamental design of Metroid would result in difficult games. Samus starts off weak and is thrown into an immense labyrinth with very little guidance. This doesn't fit the modern definition of accessibility and it takes a lot of guts to make difficult games when they're so expensive to develop. I think Prime was inspired by classic Metroid, Echoes doubled down, and Corruption backed off. I suspect that Prime 4 will be more like Corruption than Echoes.
GKSilKamina
Member
Er...what Other M did better than the Prime games? Uh...
Other M was better at leaving an emotional impact? Like, I think about Other M more often than Prime just because of how upset it made me when I played it. Now keep in mind, I think the game is perfectly fine. If you could completely remove the plot of Other M and just leave the gameplay, I'd be 100% fine with it.
But that story.
That story ruins everything.
Other M was better at leaving an emotional impact? Like, I think about Other M more often than Prime just because of how upset it made me when I played it. Now keep in mind, I think the game is perfectly fine. If you could completely remove the plot of Other M and just leave the gameplay, I'd be 100% fine with it.
But that story.
That story ruins everything.
Im not so sure you would be, Without the story distracting you, I think you would be able to clearly realize tjat, underneath the servicable enough moment to moment gameplay like running and jumping, other m is a horrible horrible metroid game. Its literally the opposite of metroid design.
Re-quoting myself from a previous thread...
I don't think it's a good game gameplay-wise. It's not the worst, of course, and it'll get you from point A to point B, but there are countless problems with it, far divorced from the Metroid name, that I feel make it a subpar action game.
Your mileage may vary, but here's just a few of the gameplay problems I experienced:
1) lack of nunchuk support. Ironic that a team called "Team Ninja" was denied permission to use the nunchuk peripheral and robbing the game of analog control. Moving a character in 3D space with a D-pad is never an ideal solution.
2) Auto-aim. Unlike previous Metroid games, Samus does all the heavy lifting for the player and will automatically shoot at whatever is around, whether they're even on the screen yet for you to see or not. Don't worry; you can safely mash the fire button and she'll aim at everything automatically. Aiming is for chumps.
3) "Concentration" mechanic. Don't worry about those silly old missile tank expansions. Why bother when you can just "concentrate" hard enough and will an infinite supply of missiles back into your armory? Sure, those missile tank expansions are there, but they're really just a formality. Oh, and get ready for battle plans where you intentionally waste some ammo so you can activate your "concentration" mechanic to get more, because wasting supplies and ammo is encouraged in this game.
4) Pixel hunts. You want to grind the pacing of an action game to a standstill? How about a game of Where's Waldo every hour or so? Don't worry if you can't find that one single pixel you need to stare at to move the game along. Relax, grab a cold one, and look over every last single blurry texture you can.
5) Forced slow-walking sections. Oh, the pixel hunts didn't interrupt the flow of the game enough? Well, how about some atmospheric slow-walking sections where Samus walks forward with the grace and speed of a narcoleptic snail? And don't expect any big payoffs for these tension-builders either. More often then not, they serve no purpose. My favorite is the one where you slowly walk down a hallway, trigger a cutscene, and then the game puts you back at the start of the hall and you have to slow walk the exact same path all over again!
6) Invincible Dodging. So the dodge button is the D-pad. The move button is the D-pad. When you dodge, you're invincible.... Well, it's not like I wanted a challenge from this game anyway.
7) Unskippable cutscenes. So you don't care about the story and just want to play the game? Well, TOO BAD. The cutscenes are mandatory and unskippable, so sit down for the next 5-to-10 minutes and let Samus dully monologue about her tender heart or about plot points everyone has already covered multiple times. For best results, hammer the buttons to try and skip anyway every time she states the obvious.
8) First-person missiles. A mandatory part of the game that only requires you to reorient the entire controller in your hand and point it at the screen, hopefully looking where you want her to look, but more often having to spend extra time reorienting yourself after that to look at the threat shooting lasers at your face. But don't worry, you can't actually MOVE when you're in first-person. Sure, you can dodge out of the way, but that takes you out first-person mode, forcing you to do the process all over again. It totally doesn't get tedious fast, I assure you.
9) Linearity. Sure, you know that door right behind you has a health upgrade, but the game will lock the doors behind you for no reason whatsoever. Don't even think about trying to explore until after the game is over. You will march forward, from point A to point B, without questioning or thinking. Forward, never backward. That obviously helpful health upgrade will have to wait until after the credits.
10) Invisible walls. Hurray! You can explore a tad!... kinda. That is unless you run into one of many invisible walls that, for some reason known only to God, stop you mid-air or hinder you mid-jump. Sure, it looks like you should easily go there, but you're wrong. Stop trying to explore and get back to the hallway.
11) QTEs. Yes, God of War's cinematic scourge is alive and well in Other M, but it's actually not so bad. I mean, Samus can spend five seconds delivering a wickedly cool kill-animation! And again! And again! Over... and over... and over... and over... So enjoy those canned animations that reward you for not falling asleep.
12) Game-ending bugs. I'm serious. Never backtrack. I tried it. It broke the entire game. I really mean this. NEVER backtrack to a save station after a boss. I don't care if it seems logical. Move forward. Only forward. Always forward.
13) Authorization mechanic. Sure, previous games, or even other games in general, reward you by letting you earn new abilities and unlock new special skills and abilities. Well, Other M isn't like those action games. She already HAS everything!... she just refuses to use it. Yes, even defensive gear and life-saving equipment. So you never "earn" anything. You just wait for some other guy you barely know to shrug his shoulders and admit you've suffered enough, so you can turn your heat shields on now so you don't burn alive.
14) Level design. I hope you like fire, ice, and forest levels. Sure, those have been the most generic Super Mario-esque levels since the dawn of mankind, but outside of sterile gray walls, that's all this game has got.
15) Game info. So you might think the game will actually TELL you when your abilities are permitted, right? ... ha, you poor, innocent, naive fool. The final boss can only be defeated by an ability you don't even know you have. Don't worry; the game will tell you you have this ability AFTER you beat it though.
And... that's the gameplay of Other M. At the very least, it's... functional, I guess. Barely.
When did I ever say otherwise? I really enjoy that those games have no interactions, or in the case of Echoes, extremely limited ones. I think you're looking for an argument where one was never being made.
First of all, a lot of classic Metroid enemies were brightly or even fluorescent colored. Maybe it looks stranger in a modern game with more realistic visuals, but that's in line with Metroid enemy design.
In regards to regenerating health, it doesn't regenerate, and you have absolutely no powerup drops whatsoever. In past Metroids, bosses would send a stream of little enemies to kill to refill your health. In Other M, you have to find a safe zone to stand defenseless for 10 solid seconds to just get one energy tank back, and you can't refill any more than that (unless you get all the powerups). It's not as if your health completely refills automatically all the time. The system actually leaves you a lot more health limited than any other Metroid; the only way you have to fully refill at all is to save.
I personally don't like the system, I'm just correcting you.
Super Metroid was the first Metroid game to overcome the limiations of early hardware that had held the first two games back, and in a way, it almost renders the first two Metroids obsolete. I wouldn't consider them to be as relevant as Super Metroid, which was the definitive Metroid game (in my opinion still is) and the one that Retro looked to when creating Metroid Prime. On that subject, check the video below.
You can read between the lines. Before Other M released, he was talking about a sequel to Other M and how he would like to work with Team Ninja again to make it. After release, he flatly stated "I have no plans to return" when asked about making conventional games again. In the context of the interview, it was clear that Metroid was the series being implied.
When it comes to Metroid II, he had no involvement in it specifically because he was already developing Super Metroid. He split off from the team that made Metroid and let them develop Metroid II while he gathered people from Intelligent systems to make Super Metroid. He did this without Nintendo's consent because he really wanted a game on the SNES but was worried they wouldn't approve another Metroid due to poor sales.
https://youtu.be/uo_bkAi_um4?t=27m52s
I hate to do this to you, but watch again. Samus catches him having broken into the lab. He's startled and double checks the computer before greeting Samus to make sure he hasn't left any signs of his tampering behind. When the group is hacking into the terminal, he awkwardly plays along with their speculation about what's going on.
I actually think this element of the plot is decent. I like the story about the bioweapon cloning and the conspiracy. There are some plot holes for sure, mostly revolving around Adam and the baffling decisions he makes or things he doesn't even address, but I like the premise more than I liked the Metroid Corruption stuff.
I don't think you've ever watched a speedrun. Once you get a feel for the environments, you can tear through them like a fucking hurricane. It was one of the bonuses of progressing through the game and becoming more and more powerful; when you had to backtrack, you could traverse the terrain in a radically different way than when you started. It was hugely satisfying, and the Prime games never really gave you this sense of growth in your mobility. Seriously, watch at least two minutes of this:
https://youtu.be/liGge39QoxM?t=22m11s
Even without the speed booster or shinespark, the amount of ground you cover in the same amount of time is radically different than the Prime games, and Fusion and Zero Mission got even faster than that.
Don't even argue this one; there's no way to do it. Don't downplay how much faster the 2D games are, because it's absolutely absurd to even suggest that there isn't a radical difference between this and the Prime Trilogy.
Hmmm...I'm always curious what Metroid Other M fans have to say in defense of the game because even if I am ultimately convinced I made the right choice as the sort of Metroid fan I am to skip the game, the mere idea of it being Metroid has a certain pull and from time to time I look it up and consider buying it. That said every time I read the defenses and critiques I walk away with "yep, I made the right choice." Other M reads like the sins of Fusion magnified even from its supporters' mouths.
To put this in context, I think Prime is the better sequel to Super Metroid than Metroid Fusion. Metroid is foremost about the gameplay structure to me and Fusion eschews that while maintaining closer platforming and action (that said, Prime's 'lack of platforming' is exaggerated). Prime is, on the other hand, a love letter to SM in terms of game-flow.
Going forward, the games need, imo, to be structurally like SM and Prime. They can do that in 2D. They can do that in 3D, in either first or third person. I don't much care as long as they do it. It would be a plus if they made Samus faster and more acrobatic (tbh, I scratch my head as to why people think this is what Samus was. She never seemed like super action hero ninja in Metroid 1-3. That's not to say it isn't a value). It would be a plus if they worked on the combat. But these things are not the core of Metroid. Metroid is not a straight action title or a straight platformer. It is an adventure game, like a Zelda, with a particular game flow. Give me that.
I would have played Other M if anything led me to me believe it had a scrap of that. I have watched/read enough of the story to know that what they did to Samus would really really piss me off, but I'd still play it if I believed I'd find Metroid within.
I guess if you were a different sort of Metroid fan, perhaps you did.
To put this in context, I think Prime is the better sequel to Super Metroid than Metroid Fusion. Metroid is foremost about the gameplay structure to me and Fusion eschews that while maintaining closer platforming and action (that said, Prime's 'lack of platforming' is exaggerated). Prime is, on the other hand, a love letter to SM in terms of game-flow.
Going forward, the games need, imo, to be structurally like SM and Prime. They can do that in 2D. They can do that in 3D, in either first or third person. I don't much care as long as they do it. It would be a plus if they made Samus faster and more acrobatic (tbh, I scratch my head as to why people think this is what Samus was. She never seemed like super action hero ninja in Metroid 1-3. That's not to say it isn't a value). It would be a plus if they worked on the combat. But these things are not the core of Metroid. Metroid is not a straight action title or a straight platformer. It is an adventure game, like a Zelda, with a particular game flow. Give me that.
I would have played Other M if anything led me to me believe it had a scrap of that. I have watched/read enough of the story to know that what they did to Samus would really really piss me off, but I'd still play it if I believed I'd find Metroid within.
I guess if you were a different sort of Metroid fan, perhaps you did.
My point was more 'Other M's the first time we saw this, it was heavily criticized by fans/reviewers, and they still used it as a jump off point for other games, not necessarily things of the same ilk.'
Now, I'm of the mind that, of everything in Other M, in terms of how it works and whatnot, if it was Wiimote + Nunchuck, it'd actually be worse because you'd have to deal with the perspective switching and Pointer constantly, unless of course they removed the first person mechanic entirely, and unfortunately, that'd require the entire game's design to change considering how integrated it is.
Because really when people think of how Samus control they think about TAS speedruns that break the game in half a million pieces!
Do you know what happens when you try to make a 3D game as fast as a 2D game can? Just watch Sonic Team, they've tried and failed for more than a decade.
Why do you think they slowed down Mario, Zelda or really pretty much any game in transition from 3D to 2D?
Speed was never the essence of the Metroid experience, you move quicker in pretty much all its competitors than Samus does in Metroid.
Don't believe me?
Go watch a competent player of Megaman Zero or Super Mario World.
You'll move way quicker and perform acrobatic feats that far surpass anything a speedrunner can ever do in Metroid II.
And in the case of Metroid, nice now you have a character that moves faster than before, what do you do with it?
Do you make the player explore interesting locales?
Nope another space station that is thematically like the very 1rst game because why bother going anywhere else than SR388 or zebes, amirite?
Let's look at a game where you move as fast as you do in Metroid and uses the same engine basically.
Kid Icarus.
When it moved to 3D what did they do?
They made a 3rd person shooter that emphasizes shooting over mobility (with even half the game not giving control on where the player goes).
Because really what was important in Kid Icarus WASN'T the speed at which you climb the level.
Considering the enemy design and the level design, it's so clear fast paced run&jump was never the focus of Super Metroid.
The controls are even too stiff to allow the character to feel nimble (for example the difference between a somersault jump and straight jump).
Compared to pretty much any other sidescroller out there Samus does feel like a tank, it's not really debatable
I don't think it has much to do really.
The thing about all the other games is that they gave you the choice of controller you wanted to use more than anything.
With Nunchuck you get rid of major problems the game have regarding it's minute to minute gameplay issues.
It also means that some decision wouldnt be made as they would seem even more stupid in that setup.
Heck we could have got monsters that requires missiles to be defeated, which means that getting more supplies for missiles would actually be useful.
I'll argue it, because I've played Metroid 1, Fusion, Super, Other M, and Prime all quite recently.
And by conventional gameplay standards, without knowing what to do or where to go, those older games are definitely not any "faster" than the Prime games are, by any stretch of the imagination. Outside of speedruns from folks that have the map layout burned into their brains, the vast majority of players who play the games for the first time aren't going to be tossing themselves into the abyss and waves of enemies because they haven't memorized every spawn point or item location yet.
Look at the level designs:
The floor is lava! Enemies fly through the air. Platforms are tiny, and even creatures you can't directly attack traverse them, meaning you have to wait for your opportunity to progress forward.
Look at Metroid II:
If you don't know where you're going, you'll be going through the game slowly, carefully... almost like it's a survival horror game because you have very, VERY little room to maneuver around obstacles and enemies. Trying to play this game fast is a death sentence if you haven't mastered and memorized where to go.
This was especially true in the games that didn't even have a map, where getting hopelessly lost was a very real possibility.
Super Metroid was definitely faster by comparisons, but you can't ignore the fact that early games were slow, methodical games with heavy limitations on mobility. Hell, you couldn't even aim DOWN in Metroid 1, so every crawling enemy was a moving obstacle to avoid.
Even Metroid Fusion punished players for being too cavalier and in too much of a rush. The unbeatable SA-X turned many sections of the game into stealth sections where blindly rushing in would get you killed. You had to be patient. You had to slow down. You had to stop and wait.
And you make it sound like the Prime games were just these slow, inelegant affairs that dragged their feet, when in the right hands they could be just as fast-paced and graceful as anything the older games could offer.
Watching high-level Prime players boost ball their way through levels, grapple beaming their way up platforms, and screw attack their way across large swaths of space was definitely a testament to how well Samus could maneuver in the right hands and keep pace with her 2D counterparts, while actually leaving the ORIGINAL games in the dust.
That's not character development. That's just a reaction, and, watching it for the THIRD time in ten minutes, it's not even a well-executed one (partially because, no, I'm not sold on the facial animation, the pacing of the scene is all wrong, and also because the voice acting is lacking). I think you're reading too much into something that's barely there. Sorry, but I'm going to keep disagreeing with you on this one. That's not an example of James being "a good character". That's example of a story beat trying to be hammered in (oh-so-blatantly).
dancrane212
Member
Was going to say it had the better TV spot but I remembered the theatrical trailer Nintendo did for Prime. Getting "cool" live action from Nintendo was pretty exciting at the time.
Speaking of which, I'm still surprised Corruption did 1.4+ million on the back of it's misplaced marketing campaign. I wonder if the ad actually convinced the more casual audience to pick that game up or was the Prime name strong enough to pull in everyone on it's own?
Speaking of which, I'm still surprised Corruption did 1.4+ million on the back of it's misplaced marketing campaign. I wonder if the ad actually convinced the more casual audience to pick that game up or was the Prime name strong enough to pull in everyone on it's own?
Ganondorfo
Junior Member
I feel for you Super Metroid and Prime 1-2 fans, because you just want one more time for this franchise to impress you. Yet its from a company who always puts their full passion on the Zelda, Mario, Smash, Fire Emblem franchise but always neglect what Super Metroid and Prime did for this medium for the hardcore fans.
Between Mario fans not understanding what 3D Mario is, old Zelda fans being left in the dust and Fire emblem fans seeing their franchise turn into anime waifu games...
I'd say Samus is not in too bad company.
Metroid is like Donkey Kong, it's not one of their main seller (debatable really for DK) and they want to make more games but they don't really know what to do with it unless they have a template to follow.
Heck DK hasn't been done by a team in Japan since that weird puzzle game on GBA or that SMG precursor on GC.
If you ask me outsourced DK and Metroid works well (and I'd argue better even).
Hrm... Its not really about thespeed runners, its about the sequence breaking... That makes the speed runs possible.
But you bring up a great point... Although I think you are prematurely snubbing prime a bit.
It is very true that prime doesnt get as fast as Classic... BUT one thing the first game does do (and pretty much only the first game) is change the way people go back through areas. It does indeed get much faster. Not classic fast, but in relation to prime.
This is the reason why nobody brought up 'backtracking'in prime... Until the fetch quest at the end.
Everytime the player went back through avisited area, they were traversing it, experiencing it a different way.
The first time they crawled through bound to the ground. Next they were zooming under the area in morphball,next they were leaping over the high points of the room with a double jump... Whipping over the room with grapple beam...
climbing to unseen heights with the spider track...
The first prime was great with this.
Afterwards, it became more and more one trick in an area.
Echoes is bad because it was more of the same, and Corruption is bad because it changed the formula? Lol, okay then.
Sakamoto mentioned he'd like to work with Team Ninja again a few times, but around the time of release of Other M he stated that he currently didn't have any plans for another Metroid game after spending the last 2 years or so on Other M.
Another interview he mentions taking care of the events between Super Metroid and Fusion before moving ahead with the story for future games. Later, Sakamoto mentioned wanting to work on different projects. http://www.gamespot.com/articles/me...-to-return-to-traditional-games/1100-6419020/
Sakamoto, who directed the original NES Metroid, wasn't involved in Metroid II: Return of Samus, which most of the original NES Metroid team made, because he was busy with another project.
Yoshio Sakamoto was asked to make a SNES Metroid by his boss Makoto Kanoh because Metroid was popular in North America (this is advertised in the Japanese Metroid 2 commercial), and the team decided build off the game system and story of Metroid II. http://www.nowgamer.com/the-making-of-super-metroid/
Metroid II: Return of Samus first released in the U.S. in November 1991, so the game would have been finished by October. Preproduction on Super Metroid began the Fall of 1991, and actual production on Super Metroid began in August 1992.
http://www.metroid-database.com/sm/interview.php
The map layout of the earlier areas of Brinstar are designed so that when you backtrack through this kind of room you can get back quicker because the platforms are lined up so you can just hold left and fall from one platform to the next without needing to jump every time.
The Metroid games are designed as episodes of a series with the storyline building up, and Other M on Wii and the GBA Metroids are designed for newcommers to Metroid, so there's the idea there for new players to go back and experience the older games in the series.
Super Metroid was designed to tell a story (after the intro) with no words as a silent movie, while Other M was designed as the opposite to tell the story through scripted cutscenes with narration.
http://www.gamestm.co.uk/features/y...e-unwritten-future-of-the-warioware-series/2/
The Chozo aren't necessary to be explained for Other M's story as a standalone story for new players. They were already covered for previous Metroid players in Metroid Prime, Zero Mission, the 2002 Metroid Manga, and the 1994 Nintendo Power comic, and those players already know what happened in between the attack on Samus' colony and joining the Galactic Federation at the age of 14. The backstory in Other M focuses on Samus as a child, and her days at the Galactic Federation when she was 14+ years old and already had her Power Suit after she would have left Zebes.
The Chozo were also referenced several times in Other M with Samus' Zero Suit, Samus' Starship, and Samus' visor, and mentioned on Phantoon's artwork.
We've reached the inevitable point in an Other M discussion where people stop attacking Other M and start attacking the 2D games to prove their point that the Prime games are better. Here's something that will blow your mind: you can like the Prime games and still admit that they aren't as fast or fluid as the 2D games. As a lot of people have commented on in this thread, the 2D speed and agility weren't enough to make Other M a good game. The Prime games could afford to lose it and still be great games in their own way.
Why fight this? Why try to make the speed of the 2D games irrelevant or insinuate it was never good in the first place? People are almost afraid that admitting that the Prime games weren't quite as good at something as the 2D titles means the Trilogy sucks somehow. They're different types of games. They did some things better than the 2D titles, some things worse.
I've got to be honest, the rest of your post turned into an angry scribble. Zelda actually got faster in 3D due to being able to ride a horse, sail a boat, or fly a bird, and Mario didn't really slow down that much either- he could still run, jump and even fly. Metroid is unique in that Samus lost a substantial portion of her abilities in transitioning to 3D, and that's not just about the speed. It's also about the platforming and acrobatic ability in general, as none of that stuff was even remotely possible in 1st person. I really don't even know what you're talking about by the end... none of the Metroid games have "stiff tank" controls. The last 3 Metroid sidescrollers are some of the most precise and fluid games I've ever played. Other games, like Sonic, might give you more speed, but they don't give you the sense of power and absolute control over your surroundings that Metroid does.
I had read otherwise, but it's IGN, so...
"Yoshio Sakamoto passed on working on Metroid II so that he could plan a sequel that management had yet to approve, aimed squarely at the SNES."
http://www.ign.com/articles/2008/08/15/ign-presents-the-history-of-metroid?page=2
Gamesradar has an article with almost the exact same content.
http://www.gamesradar.com/the-history-of-metroid/?page=3
I may be wrong, but I assumed this was correct.
Meanwhile:
When the Prime games did try to recapture some of Samus' Super Metroid moveset, they ended up with things so tediously awkward that they may as well have not even bothered. The wall jumping in the Prime games is pointless horseshit, and the screw attack was only marginally better.
Again, these games did what they emphasized- atmosphere and exploration- masterfully. They did not emphasize speed or agility.
Why fight this? Why try to make the speed of the 2D games irrelevant or insinuate it was never good in the first place? People are almost afraid that admitting that the Prime games weren't quite as good at something as the 2D titles means the Trilogy sucks somehow. They're different types of games. They did some things better than the 2D titles, some things worse.
I had a feeling when I posted that that you would latch onto "glitches" in order to ignore the incredible speed and agility on display in the video. Most of the glitches are split second clips through objects or enemies that shave off mere milliseconds. 90% of that player's speed comes from simply platforming as tightly and precisely as possible, which that video obviously demonstrates Super Metroid allows for very competently.
I've got to be honest, the rest of your post turned into an angry scribble. Zelda actually got faster in 3D due to being able to ride a horse, sail a boat, or fly a bird, and Mario didn't really slow down that much either- he could still run, jump and even fly. Metroid is unique in that Samus lost a substantial portion of her abilities in transitioning to 3D, and that's not just about the speed. It's also about the platforming and acrobatic ability in general, as none of that stuff was even remotely possible in 1st person. I really don't even know what you're talking about by the end... none of the Metroid games have "stiff tank" controls. The last 3 Metroid sidescrollers are some of the most precise and fluid games I've ever played. Other games, like Sonic, might give you more speed, but they don't give you the sense of power and absolute control over your surroundings that Metroid does.
I had read otherwise, but it's IGN, so...
"Yoshio Sakamoto passed on working on Metroid II so that he could plan a sequel that management had yet to approve, aimed squarely at the SNES."
http://www.ign.com/articles/2008/08/15/ign-presents-the-history-of-metroid?page=2
Gamesradar has an article with almost the exact same content.
http://www.gamesradar.com/the-history-of-metroid/?page=3
I may be wrong, but I assumed this was correct.
Right.
Meanwhile:
When the Prime games did try to recapture some of Samus' Super Metroid moveset, they ended up with things so tediously awkward that they may as well have not even bothered. The wall jumping in the Prime games is pointless horseshit, and the screw attack was only marginally better.
Again, these games did what they emphasized- atmosphere and exploration- masterfully. They did not emphasize speed or agility.
We've reached the inevitable point in an Other M discussion where people stop attacking Other M and start attacking the 2D games to prove their point that the Prime games are better. Here's something that will blow your mind: you can like the Prime games and still admit that they aren't as fast or fluid as the 2D games. As a lot of people have commented on in this thread, the 2D speed and agility weren't enough to make Other M a good game. The Prime games could afford to lose it and still be great games in their own way.
Why fight this? Why try to make the speed of the 2D games irrelevant or insinuate it was never good in the first place? People are almost afraid that admitting that the Prime games weren't quite as good at something as the 2D titles means the Trilogy sucks somehow. They're different types of games. They did some things better than the 2D titles, some things worse.
I had a feeling when I posted that that you would latch onto "glitches" in order to ignore the incredible speed and agility on display in the video. Most of the glitches are split second clips through objects or enemies that shave off mere milliseconds. 90% of that player's speed comes from simply platforming as tightly and precisely as possible, which that video obviously demonstrates Super Metroid allows for very competently.
I've got to be honest, the rest of your post turned into an angry scribble. Zelda actually got faster in 3D due to being able to ride a horse, sail a boat, or fly a bird, and Mario didn't really slow down that much either. I really don't even know what you're talking about by the end... none of the Metroid games have "stiff tank" controls. The last 3 Metroid sidescrollers are some of the most precise and fluid games I've ever played. Other games, like Sonic, might give you more speed, but they don't give you the sense of power and absolute control over your surroundings that Metroid does.
Right.
Meanwhile:
Oh God later Primes awful wall jumping... And of course its only allowed on giant green glowing bullshit plates.
Its true prime was nowhere near as fast or fluid as the classic games. But it really just goes to show how little that actually matters... When compared to what makes metroid, metroid.
Prime was shunned before release, for a lot of the reasons you are bringing up right now. You could tell, instantly, that the games moment to moment mechanics were completely different from classic series. But when it was played, it was universally praised, because its the world and progression design that has the most impact on what makes metroid, metroid.
Conversely, other m was hyped as shit when it was first shown. A new metroid, 3rd person, video looked (key word, looked)exactly like super metroid in 3d, running, jumping, wall jumping space jumping, speed boosting, it looked tight....
But then came the news that everything else was butchered. Prime was praised, its base mechanics were radically different. Other M's movement was much closer to classic, it was panned.
The heart and soul of metroid, is in its progression design, not its specific traversal mechanics.
It was better at completely destroying one of my beloved franchises whereas the other only built on it and was able to completely transfer it into another game genre without losing any of the feel of the original games by releasing a game in the franchise that is easily comparable if not greater than the already extremely good Super Metroid the two which are consistently cited among the best games ever made.
Its funny cause i remember playing the game when it came out and liking very much after prime left such a bad taste in my mouth. Although the story was bad, it was quite inofensive in my book, since samus was never a deep character at all to me. After going to foruns, the reaction was divisive, but iys understandable. Then the articles of how the story was sexist, how samus was killed and how the game was awful started to come out and soon after the game was the worst game ever. A shame. It could have a sequel quite better than the original by now, but it was not meant to be.
I don't see how continuing to make another game that's literally the exact opposite of metroid would have made for a much better sequel.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
where did this happen? because i just read through this thread again and i'm not seeing it... i'm sorry for nitpicking but i genuinely don't think that's what's happening here.
although i will point out the irony in that long post you replied to, which details how quickness in Super is a result of knowing the map and gameplay in and out while somehow contrasting that against Metroid Prime which is quick 'when played in the right hands'...
I see where your coming from. Those articles are from 2007-2008 and read like they're written with a lot of editorial exposition to fill in the blanks because of the limited amount of info about the series at the time (ex. Sakamoto worked on Kid Icarus after Metroid but it was Toru Osawa's game, Super Metroid was made by Team Shikamaru, but the Retro Gamer article says Sakamoto was told by his boss to make SNES Metroid and it was popular in NA).
There's been a lot of old interviews translated and recorded in recent years, like the Super Metroid guide book, and Retro Gamer's "Making of Super Metroid", so all of the info in those articles don't sound 100% accurate to the info we have now. Sakamoto didn't skip Metroid 2 to work on Super Metroid, he was just busy with another project, then was assigned the SNES Metroid by his boss.
http://www.metroid-database.com/sm/interview.php
http://www.nowgamer.com/the-making-of-super-metroid/ (2009)
The Elegence of Metroid - Gamasutra 2010
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132721/the_elegance_of_metroid_yoshio_.php
Neff
Member
Sure they do.
You make some good points though.
I'm content for them to wait until they're ready to make the big new Metroid game they want to make and be passionate about doing it. Whether it fulfils the criteria of what it's 'supposed' to be, or satisfies what 'the fans' want or not, that's all I want, myself. And it'll happen, eventually.
Pitch Black Flint
Member
lol apparently your reading comprehension takes a downturn when people hold a different opinion to your own. I said Echoes was a good game with an overly complicated level design. Corruption is shit because the changes they made weren't good ones. Thanks for putting words in my mouth though. I forgot what bullshit tasted like.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Prime 3 was in no way "shit" or "garbage." That's absurd hyperbole.
Well, those are actually the exact words Mark Pacini used to describe it...
Though I agree its too much. Even though the games nowhere near prime, its still a pretty good game.
Pitch Black Flint
Member
Of course it is. But Metroid as a series will always be held to a higher standard based on the installments that came before it. You don't follow up a game like Super Metroid or Metroid Prime with that half-assed effort. I would consider Other M in the same category, except that after the damage done with Corruption and Hunters, it seemed like the series was getting back on track. I would've liked to see it continue and improve, but as others have said, that's not gonna happen after the backlash the game has received.
After just having finished all three, I probably consider 3 the best. Just feels like the most polished game and there is nothing as terrible in Metroid Prime 3 as the fake non-linearity of Metroid Prime 1 (dead end after one hour in the crashed ship, for example), respawning enemies as annoying as in Prime 1 (still wow at those Chozo Ghosts) or that tower in the desert with specific parts you have to destroy, and when you leave the room, get some more rockets and reenter it, it's suddenly whole again so you still don't have enough rockets and have to go farm rockets yet again.
Re-read the post I quoted where Super Metroid was an uninspired retread, had stiff tank controls, and pretty much controlled clumsier than literally any other sidescroller.
I've had a number of arguments about this game since it came out. I don't want to, I don't think anyone wants to, but it happens. It often starts with people denying Other M any credit for bringing Samus' classic feel into 3D, but when it becomes obvious that it's still far closer and faster than the Prime games, the argument becomes "well, the old games didn't control that well to begin with." At least one person always does this. I've seen some Prime fans (ie, people who started with Prime first) argue that Super Metroid wasn't even a good game.
I don't think there are any players out there fast enough to make the Prime games approach the 2D entries in their speed. There's absolutely nothing you can do to make the wall jumping or screw attacking take less time than they do (which is a lot), and you have to rely exclusively on the boost ball to get everywhere because it's the only form of movement you have above a power walk.
Even then, it's not a fun method of travel. You can't jump or climb obstacles or fight enemies in the boost ball- it's only really useful for speed runners or people who are bored with walking and want to go faster. It wasn't meant to be a means of traversing the world.
In Super Metroid/Zero Misson/Fusion, all the tools that speedrunners use are also your natural means for moving through the environment. The speed booster, space jump, wall jumps, etc. aren't just for tricks; that's how you're supposed to get around. The environments are designed around those abilities. Speed was built into those games; maybe you had to pass through an area a few times before you could really go at full tilt, but it's generally always faster than the Prime games. Especially when you factor in the drop in pace the scan visor introduces.
I love the Prime games and I'm not trying to shit on them, but I miss the feeling of controlling 2D Samus when I play them. A lot. I think there are plenty of potential ways to make Samus fast in 3D, and Other M was the first step towards that. I think just adding analog nunchuk control and using the IR to manually aim would have instantly improved the controls by a massive amount.
It is. I criticized a lot of the goofy story, but Prime 3 is the funnest Prime game to replay. Skytown's atmosphere alone makes a better case against Other M than anyone in this thread has... Retro's artists were at their absolute peak with that game.
_/¯ElectricBlanketFire
Member
There was no damage done from Prime 3 and in no way was it a half-assed effort.
Pitch Black Flint
Member
Hmmm. I'll have to disagree there.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
ay, I agree with you here for what it's worth. the post you quoted, i thought they were referring to prime, lmao. guess I shoulda read a little harder.
I will say that the prime series' map design is pretty effective at giving players fast alternate routes through series of rooms (or around them) once they have the prerequisite abilities, as a replacement for super's natural speed, so the pace of the game doesn't feel all that different in terms of general progression. you're forced to backtrack along the same 'paths' a lot less (until the end game fetch quest of course), so at least the games are pretty intelligently designed around that constraint.