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What should the next big Mario game be like?

True successor to Mario 64 in my opinion.

There was technically never a sequel to Mario 64. We went to Sunshine, then Galaxy and Galaxy 2.

Just Mario U?
 
I honestly do want a big kind of open-world 3D Mario platform adventure.

I don't think linearity is essential to 3d Mario platforming. Just expand the medium-sized worlds in Super Mario 64, and that's what I'm talking about. Make each one bigger, with more things to do, lots of platforming challenges interspersed with multiple ways to scale certain areas, then combine them all together in one seamless world.

You could have to scale a huge mountain area like in 64, which would end in a slide type thing that would take you 2/3s around the whole open-world area, or something.

There'd be regular stars everywhere and some hidden green stars or star coins, or whatever. Maybe unlock other characters with enough secret stars, like Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, etc.

I honestly don't think this is a twisted desire born out of everything needing to be open-world nowadays. It really is something I've wanted since around Super Mario Sunshine.
 
I thought about it for quite a bit, and I came up with a concrete idea. Here's my idea for the next Mario game:

Super Mario Skyscape

Story: The game begins with Mario and Luigi accompanying Princess Peach and Toadsworth on a diplomatic mission to the aerial kingdom of Cielobella. The ruler of the kingdom, Prince Nuvola, wants to commence trading with the Mushroom Kingdom in the future, and has invited the party to fly out to his kingdom and see all that it has to offer. Upon arrival, the party encounter the cloudfolk of the kingdom, known as the Nuvos. The Nuvos tell the party that Prince Nuvola has been captured by the archfiend of the land, Lord Tuono. Mario and Luigi set out to rescue the prince and restore balance to the kingdom.

Mechanics:

- Co-op multiplayer (online and local)
- Central city of Cielobella branches out into a variety of "worlds" to explore, each revolving around an air, cloud, or wind-based gimmick.
- Only returning power up is the Cloud Flower. All the new power ups are wind-based.
- Most enemies are brand new, though some return, primarily from Super Mario 2 USA, such as Albatoss, Fly-Guy, Pidgit, & Phanto.
- Some stages offer entirely new paths depending on which power ups you have, and if you're playing single player or multiplayer.
 
The only 3D mario I've owned and beat is 3D world. I've barely played any of the other ones. I think I played Sunshine vat a day care when I was very young.

I'm gonna get to Galaxy eventually, but i'm most interested in a Super Mario 64 2
 
I'd be fine with Galaxy 3, Universe, 64 2, or something completely new. I think I'd like a Super Mario Universe that sort of combines Galaxy and 64, in terms of linearity it's somewhere in between the two and in terms of scope/length it's bigger than both.

I think we've had enough of 3D Land/World though.
 
Giever said:
I honestly do want a big kind of open-world 3D Mario platform adventure.

I don't think linearity is essential to 3d Mario platforming. Just expand the medium-sized worlds in Super Mario 64, and that's what I'm talking about. Make each one bigger, with more things to do, lots of platforming challenges interspersed with multiple ways to scale certain areas, then combine them all together in one seamless world.

You could have to scale a huge mountain area like in 64, which would end in a slide type thing that would take you 2/3s around the whole open-world area, or something.

There'd be regular stars everywhere and some hidden green stars or star coins, or whatever. Maybe unlock other characters with enough secret stars, like Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, etc.

I honestly don't think this is a twisted desire born out of everything needing to be open-world nowadays. It really is something I've wanted since around Super Mario Sunshine.
Click to expand...

There is no benefit to having linear game design. Zero. None. Nada. People defend it because it's easier to make, which usually results in more focused platforming challenges. Is it impossible to make an open world that does have focused platforming? I don't think so, and that's the next step the franchise needs to take. It's much easier to throw a few blocks into empty space than it is to design a cohesive environment. That's not to say that Super Mario Galaxy is a bad game. In fact, I'd argue that in many ways it's far superior to Super Mario 64. But it's time for the franchise to evolve, and 3D World felt like a regression. It's clear that 3D World was held back because they designed everything around multiplayer, which is fine, but that shouldn't have an influence on the next 3D Mario game.

pgJcx0J.png
 
Green Slime said:
I can see similarities between M64 and SMS, and between SMG and SMG2, but the similarities between those are limited at best. There's a lot more similarity between the latter two and 3DL/3DW, honestly.
Click to expand...


I disagree, but whatever. Having recently played these games, some fundamental things are similar between M64, SMS, SMG, and SMG2 that are just not there on 3DL/3DW including how Mario controls, how the camera controls, having no time limits on levels, how the health system works, and having objectives to complete. These things are similar in the first four games, are important to how the game plays and 3DW is a complete departure from this.

There are no levels in 3DL/3DW like Honeyhive or Sea Slide Galaxy, but they are similar to M64’s levels by being open.

Also, look at these screenshots from SMS and tell me it didn’t also have the same closed, directed levels that galaxy did:

iNkYRmw.jpg


Here’s a couple more:
http://i.imgur.com/zP9g0WW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AsVJ9q3.png

It’s like, M64 had only open levels. SMS sunshine had less open levels and introduced these “gauntlet” levels. SMG/SMG2 have even less open levels and more gauntlet levels. The major thing is that, by design, the original 4 3D Mario games can support open levels whereas, due to fundamental changes in design, 3DW cannot.
 
Gonzo The Great said:
There is no benefit to having linear game design. Zero. None. Nada. People defend it because it's easier to make, which usually results in more focused platforming challenges. Is it impossible to make an open world that does have focused platforming? I don't think so, and that's the next step the franchise needs to take. It's much easier to throw a few blocks into empty space than it is to design a cohesive environment. That's not to say that Super Mario Galaxy is a bad game. In fact, I'd argue that in many ways it's far superior to Super Mario 64. But it's time for the franchise to evolve, and 3D World felt like a regression. It's clear that 3D World was held back because they designed everything around multiplayer, which is fine, but that shouldn't influence the next 3D Mario game.

pgJcx0J.png
Click to expand...
3D World had some of the best platforming in the series though
 
Gonzo The Great said:
I didn't hear ANYBODY complain about Super Mario 64 not being linear enough, and now everybody is suddenly against the idea of reverting back to that more open world style. I guess it's about eating whatever is put into your trough, and there hasn't been a game like that in decades. The game should feel like an adventure. You should feel like you're making progress. The Galaxy games managed to execute this well thanks in part to the space theme. 3D World, on the other hand, felt like you were jumping on platforms that were just hovering in the middle of the air for no rhyme or reason. What they need to is the give the levels more depth, while maintaining a healthy mixture of both platforming and exploration. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
Click to expand...

For the record I did, but also played SM64 for the first time in 2004. Mario also wasn't one of my favorite game series until the Galaxy games came along, before then I always preferred Sonic.

Gonzo The Great said:
There is no benefit to having linear game design. Zero. None. Nada. People defend it because it's easier to make, which usually results in more focused platforming challenges. Is it impossible to make an open world that does have focused platforming? I don't think so, and that's the next step the franchise needs to take. It's much easier to throw a few blocks into empty space than it is to design a cohesive environment. That's not to say that Super Mario Galaxy is a bad game. In fact, I'd argue that in many ways it's far superior to Super Mario 64. But it's time for the franchise to evolve, and 3D World felt like a regression.

pgJcx0J.png
Click to expand...

I prefer linear game design, I actually refuse to buy a lot of modern games because of their open design. The reason I prefer linear design is that I have a very personal problem in the way I perceive distance which causes me to get disoriented a lot, so I can't play games that are incredibly open in terms of world design without getting lost very easily. I have this problem in real life as well, I usually can't navigate around somewhere by myself if I haven't been there several times already.

For the record though I'm fine with Super Mario 64 levels of openness, just not like, Skyrim.
 
Aaronrules380 said:
3D World had some of the best platforming in the series though
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree. Just because every level has bottomless pits like Super Mario Bros. on the NES doesn't make the platforming better. 3D Land felt like a step back from Galaxy, but it had reason to because it was designed around weaker hardware. 3D World doesn't have that excuse. I think Super Mario Galaxy 2 is the pinnacle of 3D game design, but it would benefit greatly from a more expansive world to explore. The platforming is top notch, but there's no reason why we can't be platforming in more believable environments akin to Super Mario 64.
 
I absolutely hate level select screens. I much prefer the hub worlds of Mario 64 and Sunshine.

Love revisiting levels with different goals and tons of stars.
 
I sorta want to see something new, no Galaxy 3, 3D World 2 or Sunshine 2. I want to see what else they can do for 3D platformers
 
Gonzo The Great said:
I respectfully disagree. Just because every level has bottomless pits like Super Mario Bros. on the NES doesn't make the platforming better. 3D Land felt like a step back from Galaxy, but it had reason to because it was designed around weaker hardware. 3D World doesn't have that excuse. I think Super Mario Galaxy 2 is the pinnacle of 3D game design, but it would benefit greatly from a more expansive world to explore. The platforming is top notch, but there's no reason why we can't be platforming in more believable environments akin to Super Mario 64.
Click to expand...

You and I have the exact same opinion on this.

Anecdote: My girlfriend and I beat 3DW. As we were finishing it up, I got SMG1/SMG2 used for really cheap and we jumped immediately into it. After getting 120 stars in Galaxy and finishing up Galaxy 2, we both agreed that the galaxy games are better by a wide margin.

The only thing 3DW has on Galaxy is image quality and graphics. 3DW is beautiful.
 
I would love to see a new Galaxy-styled game but I have good faith in EAD Tokyo to make another amazing Mario game regardless of how they approach the next title.
 
The reason I prefer 3D World is that the stages have as many different route-options as Galaxy stages did (perhaps more) and achieve it with less space. In general there feels like there's more mechanics and game-elements going on in a 3D world stage than a galaxy stage. This could largely be due to the enemy encounters feeling more relevant to the player's navigation through the actual brick/stage placement (as there's less space between enemies and the other bits of the stage, so you kind of take on both things at once rather than separately, like you do in Galaxy.) The power ups felt like actual power ups that could be taken into the main game without compromising anything - they don't feel like their own secluded minigames like Galaxy's did. Mario also controls so much smoother.
 
doofy102 said:
The reason I prefer 3D World is that the stages have as many different route-options as Galaxy stages did (perhaps more) and achieve it with less space. In general there feels like there's more mechanics going on in a 3D world stage than a galaxy stage. The power ups felt like actual power ups that could be taken into the main game without compromising anything - they don't feel like their own secluded minigames like Galaxy's did.
Click to expand...

I’m the opposite on this. In galaxy, they could design the level around using the powerup. The levels in Galaxy 2 with the cloud suit, or the levels in galaxy with the bee suit were amazing, but only because they could guarantee you have these suites at that time. In 3DW, they need to design the levels around you being able to complete them as small Mario, which means the power ups practically didn’t matter. The only thing they could get you is the occasional green star.
 
doofy102 said:
The left image actually depicts 3D World more than the right does. You're given a direction to run in and there's multiple things you could going down the path.
Click to expand...

Not really. The little explanation 3D World does have is nullified by the timer that is constantly ticking down. Sure you can deviate from the path slightly and hunt down the green stars, but the path generally remains the same every time.

To illustrate my point further, I want less of this:

280px-Whomp's_Fortress_64.png


And more of this:

280px-Bob-omb_Battlefield_64.png


This is not 1996 anymore. Land masses should not be floating in the middle of the air. Even 2D Mario doesn't do this. Give the world some depth. Sunshine was a step in the right direction, but there wasn't enough platforming. If they can properly combine the two, we'll finally have the ultimate 3D Mario game. Galaxy got away with this because of the space motive, but 3D Land and 3D World just look silly.
 
Gonzo The Great said:
There is no benefit to having linear game design. Zero. None. Nada. People defend it because it's easier to make, which usually results in more focused platforming challenges. Is it impossible to make an open world that does have focused platforming? I don't think so, and that's the next step the franchise needs to take. It's much easier to throw a few blocks into empty space than it is to design a cohesive environment. That's not to say that Super Mario Galaxy is a bad game. In fact, I'd argue that in many ways it's far superior to Super Mario 64. But it's time for the franchise to evolve, and 3D World felt like a regression. It's clear that 3D World was held back because they designed everything around multiplayer, which is fine, but that shouldn't have an influence on the next 3D Mario game.

pgJcx0J.png
Click to expand...


You said zero, nada, then explained the benefit that you'd just said doesn't exist!


Gonzo The Great said:
I respectfully disagree. Just because every level has bottomless pits like Super Mario Bros. on the NES doesn't make the platforming better. 3D Land felt like a step back from Galaxy, but it had reason to because it was designed around weaker hardware. 3D World doesn't have that excuse. I think Super Mario Galaxy 2 is the pinnacle of 3D game design, but it would benefit greatly from a more expansive world to explore. The platforming is top notch, but there's no reason why we can't be platforming in more believable environments akin to Super Mario 64.
Click to expand...

What the heck are you talking about with bottomless pits? Every Mario platformer has death by falling. Even Galaxy had its black holes.

Like with Galaxy 2, I'd bet 3D World was made because Ninty had many unused ideas leftover from 3D Land. It was always about the tight platforming action, and I for one felt it was quite refreshing having short bursts of platforming brilliance, hitting that flag, taking a breath, then going again.

Exploring a huge world/galaxy is cool too, but so much time is spent running around a hub world, or running across a field, or down a road, trying to find that awesome platforming action. Then you grab your star and start over, having to spend time running to the good stuff again. In 3D World, it's always just a button press away (which is especially great for those working players with busy schedules).

I can hardly imagine what they would do with the next installment. If I could, I'd be working with them. But I bet it'll have tight, fun, awesome gameplay, as always.


On second thought, I think they should finally go all in--Super Mario Plumbing Simulator!

Edit:

Gonzo The Great said:
This is not 1996 anymore. Land masses should not be floating in the middle of the air. Even 2D Mario doesn't do this. Give the world some depth.
Click to expand...

Leave the depth to Metroid, Mario needs whimsy.
 
Michanical said:
I’m the opposite on this. In galaxy, they could design the level around using the powerup. The levels in Galaxy 2 with the cloud suit, or the levels in galaxy with the bee suit were amazing, but only because they could guarantee you have these suites at that time. In 3DW, they need to design the levels around you being able to complete them as small Mario, which means the power ups practically didn’t matter. The only thing they could get you is the occasional green star.
Click to expand...

All the levels in 3D World being built around platforming rather than items is what makes it so great. If I tired of/didn't enjoy the spring sections in Galaxy, then I'd never want to play those over again. The basic gameplay is almost never pushed aside for extraneous activities in 3D World compared to the last few 3D Mario games. No matter what spin levels put on the basic gameplay, I'm still running and jumping through them. The items compliment platforming rather than turn them on their head completely (e.g. Bee Mario fundamentally changes the gameplay whereas Cat Mario doesn't).

That, and 3DW manages to be more linear like Galaxy while still retaining the sense of exploration and discovery (of the levels of the game mechanics themselves) present in 64/Sunshine.

I'm still playing through Galaxy 2. Hoping it's as good as everyone says.
 
Michanical said:
You and I have the exact same opinion on this.

Anecdote: My girlfriend and I beat 3DW. As we were finishing it up, I got SMG1/SMG2 used for really cheap and we jumped immediately into it. After getting 120 stars in Galaxy and finishing up Galaxy 2, we both agreed that the galaxy games are better by a wide margin.

The only thing 3DW has on Galaxy is image quality and graphics. 3DW is beautiful.
Click to expand...
I have almost the exact same anecdote lol. Just finished SM3DW with my wife, so I bought SMG2 digitally on sale and SMG1 is on the way. I've never played either. I wonder if I'll reach the same conclusion as you
 
RowdyReverb said:
I have almost the exact same anecdote lol. Just finished SM3DW with my wife, so I bought SMG2 digitally on sale and SMG1 is on the way. I've never played either. I wonder if I'll reach the same conclusion as you
Click to expand...

You probably will. Galaxy 1 and 2 are really great games.
 
I think a 64-like open world would be neat, using pipes to fast travel between locations. It would also be cool if they incorporated different styles from different eras.
 
Gonzo The Great said:
Not really. The little explanation 3D World does have is nullified by the timer that is constantly ticking down. Sure you can deviate from the path slightly and hunt down the green stars, but the path generally remains the same every time.

To illustrate my point further, I want less of this:

280px-Whomp's_Fortress_64.png


And more of this:

280px-Bob-omb_Battlefield_64.png
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about literal obvious paths you can see from space. I'm talking about the options of micro-routes to take through the stage design, i,e. the dozen ways to approach a simple set up of cubes and goombas. Decision making on the micro level.

The difference is that 3D world doesn't spread its goombas and cubes out to the point they are barely interacting with each other, and has stages designed so the player is presented with more urgent choices at one single moment in time than ever present in a 3D mario game.
 
Anyone looking for an open world game that's completely decked out with the same sort of tight design you see in a stage-based title is going to be eternally disappointed. Ain't nobody has that kind of time and manpower.

Gonzo The Great said:
This is not 1996 anymore. Land masses should not be floating in the middle of the air. Even 2D Mario doesn't do this. Give the world some depth. Sunshine was a step in the right direction, but there wasn't enough platforming. If they can properly combine the two, we'll finally have the ultimate 3D Mario game. Galaxy got away with this because of the space motive, but 3D Land and 3D World just look silly.
Click to expand...

Your second screenshot literally has a platform floating in the air.

Never mind that "2D Mario doesn't do this" is complete nonsense. The 2D games hang solid stone off of nothing but thin air all the time, never mind things like the all the pipes descending from heaven.
 
I don't know; thematically they can do what ever they want with the 3D Mario games.

Make Mario travel through time, shrink him down so he can save a tiny ant kingdom, send him into a digital world, send him to an alien planet, send him to a dream world, send him to an East Asian-esque continent similar to "Hands On Hall", send him underground to battle an army of angry Monty Moles (Splatoon-style ;>), send him to a location based on the "four" elements, send him to an African-esque continent, send him into various storybooks, or send him to the multiverse.

There is not much of a limit to the kinds of themes and settings EAD Tokyo could use for future games, and I'm sure they could take many of these ideas to places that I've never even dreamed of.

My only real request from a gameplay standpoint is this

Echoenigma said:
Please keep open world level design away from the series. Linearity is pretty essential to platforming in the mario series.
Click to expand...

EAD Tokyo has made it quite clear that the 64/Sunshine/Banjo-Kazooie style pseudo action-adventure platformer is utterly obsolete; they've been steadily moving farther and farther away from that style of game because it's cumbersome, unnecessary, and indicative of an era when designers were incredibly naive about 3D game design.
Nobody wants hubworlds (In a platformer these are equivalent to glue being stuck between the pages of a great book), sandbox-esque level design (You can't really have well designed threatening/challenging obstacles when you can just...you know...go around them. There is also the problems of manpower, hardware design, time, and resources that won't really allow for 3D World or SMG1/2 style level design to exist in a big open environment), or missions in a Super Mario platfomer unless they're part of a bigger more fleshed out obstacle course; taken on their own those elements are completely at odds with the core interactive identity, the very essence, of the mainline Super Mario/Super Mario Bros. series.


Gonzo The Great said:
A linear 3D game sounds like an oxymoron to me.
....
Replicating the 2D games in a 3D space defeats the purpose.
Click to expand...

This is a incredibly myopic and uneducated way of approaching 3D game design; I'm glad you're nowhere near the development of this series.
 
I would want either a spiritual successor to either Mario 64/Sunshine or a spiritual successor/sequel to Galaxy; if we get a third 3D_ game, I'm officially done with 3D Mario, they're fine games, but I don't want to live in that future.

As for themes, I'd like something similar to Crash Warped, in that you're exploring different time periods that all have over-the-top cultural themes, basically what Hands-on Hall could have been if it weren't limited to a single level, or like maybe Dragon Driftway, in that there would be eastern themed levels along with the usual Egypt, Medieval, prehistoric, and future/space.
 
Something new. Galaxy 3? Please. It doesn't matter how good galaxy was. In no world would I want two direct sequels to a 3D Mario game.

That said, just let EAD do whatever they want and it'll be good.

Rodney McKay said:
A mix of 64/Sunshine and Galaxy/3D Land/World.
Sorta like how Mario Sunshine had those Galaxy style FLUDD-less levels inside the regular levels, but just more of them.

Have a good amount of large, explorable 64/Sunshine style levels, but include Galaxy/3D Land linear levels when needed (like the Bowser stages in 64, or crazier themed levels like an MC Escher level).

Basically my dream Mario at this point and the only thing I can think of that would get me invested in the series again (3D Land and World are fun, but I just need more freedom and more memorable environments and levels instead of lots of bite sized ones).
Click to expand...

Also this is a good answer. Give me a little mix of everything.
 
I don't want a 3D World sequel or a Galaxy sequel. I want something new that is as inspiring as SMB3, Mario 64, or Galaxy were at the time.

A big open adventure tightly packed with platforming challenges would be great.
 
I want to see how the Super Mario 64 approach to level design could work with Galaxy gameplay. It would be interesting to get the wide open levels of 64 that contain numerous stars and allow the player to tackle them in any order they wish yet still emphasizing the tight platforming experience Galaxy has.
 
Mario 64-2 (that exact title)

Take us back to the castle, more paintings, each with less stars so as to increase variety. Have some throwback 64 worlds, Sunshine worlds and Galaxy planets. Then run with the idea.

[or do some "Powers of 10" shit, where he gets so small he's jumping around plancks. I dunno]
 
Echoenigma said:
Please keep open world level design away from the series. Linearity is pretty essential to platforming in the mario series.
Click to expand...

Says who?

After playing Mario 64 for years I can't get back to Mario games that are more linear. Open-world made the series fun.
 
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