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[MilkBeard]

Don't know why an action rpg has to be classed in a specific category where lethargic, weightless combat, lack of hit reactions and awful camera angles are acceptable. Tales, Star Ocean, Souls, etc. have been doing fast, dynamic and responsive action systems for years. Even a clos comparison to this style of game, Dragon's Dogma, has been able to blow most other rpgs out of the water. The animation priorities in such games don't interfere with the gameplay and that's 15s main problem, with me.

I feel like you're confusing things, though.

Star Ocean and Tales have had fixed camera angles for a long time. Only recently have they changed that, to varying degrees of success.

Souls games are still notorious for having shitty camera, and even then, I love the combat in Souls but many people do not, because the animations are slower and have more weight to them.

Dragon's Dogma has great combat as well--but that's Dragon's Dogma, not Final Fantasy. That system was built to play as a single character action RPG, with artificial characters that follow you and are replacable and have no personality. It's a great system though, but I'd be disappointed if Final Fantasy was designed that way. They also have to deal with basing this system on already created ideas like the warp system. Can you warp to nearly any location in any of those games? No you cannot. It's just the nature of developing a system around certain core elements.

Personally, I find Xenoblade Chronicles' battle system to be really boring and less engaging than true action systems. So I can understand why people might not be tuned to it--but personally, I would say that XV's system makes a really good compromise between full action and the type of system that is in Xenoblade Chronicles, which is having more freedom of control (warping) and having actual hitboxes.

 

[MilkBeard]

Er.

The intent of my post was not to say that Dark Souls is a clean action game. LOL, it's the opposite of that. I brought up Dark Souls because I don't see the connection between Dark Souls and FFXV.

"After playing 100 hours of Dark Souls series..." what does that have to do with XV? How does XV play like Souls exactly? The gifs were an aside remark on how unpolished and crap the combat feels to me.

Dark Souls is an action RPG. Also, there is mention of geometry issues. I did mistake your comment to mean that you thought Dark Souls didn't have those problems.

But the comparison can be made, because they are both different types of action RPGs, even if their mechanics are a bit different.

If you are going to deny the ability to compare and contrast various action RPG systems, except to further your own points, well, I feel like this is just a battle of people playing dumb to each other's perspective and is going to go nowhere.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I don't know, this doesn't really bother me. I mean, even games like DMC, Bayo and KH2 had some geometry issues.

Rarely. It happened all the time for me in the Platinum Demo. It played horribly. For the record, my personal cream of the crop is Ninja Gaiden. Comparing Ninja Gaiden 2 to XV's Platinum Demo is like comparing Mario 64 to Bubsy 3d to me. It's not even fair to XV. Sure, most action rpgs have limited combat that doesn't compare to a full on action game, but they generally have a bare minimum level of polish and good design. XV plays extremely unpolished for a game coming out in three months. Its Titan demo is the icing on the cake. The designers of FFXV actually thought such a demo would be good to show off because they value flash more than actual good action design and mechanics and polish. That says everything about the game and why wait mode is this games savior.

 

[MilkBeard]

Rarely. It happened all the time for me in the Platinum Demo. It played horribly. For the record, my personal cream of the crop is Ninja Gaiden. Comparing Ninja Gaiden 2 to XV's Platinum Demo is like comparing Mario 64 to Croc to me. It's not even fair to XV. Sure, most action rpgs have limited combat that doesn't compare to a full on action game, but they generally have a bare minimum level of polish and good design. XV plays extremely unpolished for a game coming out in three months. Its Titan demo is the icing on the cake. The designers of FFXV actually thought such a demo would be good to show off because they value flash more than actual good action design and mechanics and polish. That says everything about the game and why wait mode is this games savior.

You see, now we can understand where you are coming from. But I feel like comparing an action rpg to arcade action is a little bit silly. But since they are still loosely related by being action games, I guess the comparison can be made.

And for the record, my character never got stuck on geometry from what I remember. But it's something that is more common than you think in action rpgs.

Also, I see people complaining about clipping in the Titan demo, but I think they did a pretty good job of mitigating it compared to other games. How else would you design a game where a giant thing is hitting you with it's arm? How is the character supposed to react? In reality, it would just be crushed like a bug. So any other variation on that is unrealistic by default.

I feel like some of the criticism is magnified in XV simply because it is going for a more realistic aesthetic. But the next time there's clipping in your favorite action game, I would expect you to criticize it and write long arguments about how it is poorly made and plays bad.

 

[Mailbox]

I think the only things wrong with FF15's battle system are responsiveness (animation vs button presses) and "hold to attack". I honestly thing the hold to attack thing is a mistake in designing a rewarding attacking structure, but it'll be a mistake I can learn to live with. The other stuff is pretty much fine.

And I really don't think people should be comparing this to Character-action games like DMC or Bayonetta (edit: or ninja gaiden) nor should be compared to something like The soulsborne games (which are methodically designed for specifically what they need to be, and not all action rpg's should follow that formula)

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Dark Souls is an action RPG. Also, there is mention of geometry issues. I did mistake your comment to mean that you thought Dark Souls didn't have those problems.

But the comparison can be made, because they are both different types of action RPGs, even if their mechanics are a bit different.

If you are going to deny the ability to compare and contrast various action RPG systems, except to further your own points, well, I feel like this is just a battle of people playing dumb to each other's perspective and is going to go nowhere.

Nah. It's just a silly comparison. Souls plays nothing like XV. Your reasoning makes it even more damning on this game because while Souls games have issues with polish, they're also methodical and tend to be on the slower side. A misplaced sword slashed can result in death in Souls.

Since you think I have an agenda, let's compare it to other action rpgs then. Can we really say the same thing with XV? Souls has polish issues but for the most part it's still pretty polished considering. XV is on another level entirely. It doesn't feel like it has the repercussions due to animation priority as seen in titles like Monster Hunter or Souls games, but it also wants to be fast paced like DMC or NG or Bayo but it lacks basic polish that makes playing a fast-paced action game feel so smooth. It's slow and weighted like Souls/MonHun but fast paced? It makes no sense and lends to this game feeling like the people making it have no idea what they're doing.

To Kingdom Hearts' credit for instance, it lacks depth, but I mean, it wants to be a fast-paced action rpg and it knows that because of that it needs to control as smooth as butter. That's how FFXV should feel and control.

If the action were less flashy and showy and more methodical like Souls, I have a feeling the complaints that it feels slow and unresponsive would be lowered a large amount. But because of the fact the developers want to show off and make it an action showcase, peoples expectations are harsher and rightfully so.

TLDR; The overwhelming problem is that XV does not feel like butter. A fast-paced action game should feel like butter. Games like MonHun/Souls have different expectations because they're slower and have a different take on action rpg formula.

 

[chozen]

I think the only things wrong with FF15's battle system are responsiveness (animation vs button presses) and "hold to attack". I honestly thing the hold to attack thing is a mistake in designing a rewarding attacking structure, but it'll be a mistake I can learn to live with. The other stuff is pretty much fine.

And I really don't think people should be comparing this to Character-action games like DMC or Bayonetta (edit: or ninja gaiden) nor should be compared to something like The soulsborne games (which are methodically designed for specifically what they need to be, and not all action rpg's should follow that formula)

Tabata should have built it as 1:1 first then hold O to combo after.

But it seems like he designed it with holding the button down in mind first which is why there is such a disconnect for people who want more of that precise gameplay.

 

[YankeeDonB]

Rarely. It happened all the time for me in the Platinum Demo. It played horribly. For the record, my personal cream of the crop is Ninja Gaiden. Comparing Ninja Gaiden 2 to XV's Platinum Demo is like comparing Mario 64 to Bubsy 3d to me. It's not even fair to XV. Sure, most action rpgs have limited combat that doesn't compare to a full on action game, but they generally have a bare minimum level of polish and good design. XV plays extremely unpolished for a game coming out in three months. Its Titan demo is the icing on the cake. The designers of FFXV actually thought such a demo would be good to show off because they value flash more than actual good action design and mechanics and polish. That says everything about the game and why wait mode is this games savior.

Ha, and how do other 100+ hour open world action RPGs compare to Ninja Gaiden's combat? Skyrim? Fallout? Witcher 3?

I'm not saying the combat in XV's demos has been super polished (although I've enjoyed its flexibility a lot), but this is in no way a fair comparison. You're not going to get combat design that tight in a game so massive. Everything has trade offs. Fine to call out the issues, but there's going to be a lot more to the game than just combat.

VI is still my favorite FF, and the combat in that is beyond brainless.

 

[Magicgamer101]

There's a hold to attack button in Final Fantasy 15? That sounds terrible

 

[MilkBeard]

Nah. It's just a silly comparison. Souls plays nothing like XV. Your reasoning makes it even more daming on this game because while Souls games have issues with polish, they're also methodical and tend to be on the slower side. A misplaced sword slashed can result in death in Souls. Can we really say the same thing with XV? Souls has polish issues but for the most part it's still pretty polished considering. XV is on another level entirely. It doesn't feel like it has the repercussions due to animation priority as seen in titles like Monster Hunter or Souls games, but it also wants to be fast paced like DMC or NG or Bayo but it lacks basic polish that makes playing a fast-paced action game feel so smooth. It's slow and weighted like Souls/MonHun but fast paced? It makes no sense and lends to this game feeling like the people making it have no idea what they're doing.

To Kingdom Hearts' credit for instance, it lacks depth, but I mean, it wants to be a fast-paced action rpg and it knows that because of that it needs to control as smooth as butter. That's how FFXV should feel and control.

If the action were less flashy and showy and more methodical like Souls, I have a feeling the complaints that it feels slow and unresponsive would be lowered a large amount. But because of the fact the developers want to show off and make it an action showcase, peoples expectations are harsher and rightfully so.

It's true that Souls goes for a different design (slower, more methodical combat with risk and reward) but at least it's in the same genre. People are going to compare the combat to other action rpgs, which is what people have been doing in this thread. I was just giving an example of my own perspective, meaning, I came into the Platinum Demo after being used to Souls combat, and I had no problem with it.



EDIT: I agree with the other posts in this page that say the main issue is the 'hold to attack' system. It really is my main criticism of what I played of the Platinum Demo. That, and only one battle was not enough to actually be able to feel the system to its fullest.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

It's true that Souls goes for a different design (slower, more methodical combat with risk and reward) but at least it's in the same genre. People are going to compare the combat to other action rpgs, which is what people have been doing in this thread. I was just giving an example of my own perspective, meaning, I came into the Platinum Demo after being used to Souls combat, and I had no problem with it.



EDIT: I agree with the other posts in this page that say the main issue is the 'hold to attack' system. It really is my main criticism of what I played of the Platinum Demo. That, and only one battle was not enough to actually be able to feel the system to its fullest.

Yeah, I disliked the hold to attack system. I'm looking forward to trying Action Mode out. Maybe I'll like it more. I don't know.

And your point is fair.

I contend that XV would have a much, much warmer reaction if it went either route: slow and methodical like Souls or MonHun or full on fast-paced like KH or DMC. But it feels like some weird mix of both and it's not working for people because the developers want it to be an action showcase but people are getting stuck in shit all the time.

 

[MilkBeard]

Yeah, I disliked the hold to attack system. I'm looking forward to trying Action Mode out. Maybe I'll like it more. I don't know.

And your point is fair.

I contend that XV would have a much, much warmer reaction if it went either route: slow and methodical like Souls or MonHun or full on fast-paced like KH or DMC. But it feels like some weird mix of both and it's not working for people because the developers want it to be an action showcase but people are getting stuck in shit all the time.

Yeah, also the insane attention that Final Fantasy gets, good and bad, as well as people at SE using the term "leading edge," which is just setting themselves up for failure. If you say your game is going to be the best thing since sliced bread, if it doesn't blow people away, they are going to come away more negative than if you just said "here it is," lol.

Also, allowing for the game to be played in such an unfinished state is a bad idea, in hindsight. They had good intentions, but it did more harm than good.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Ha, and how do other 100+ hour open world action RPGs compare to Ninja Gaiden's combat? Skyrim? Fallout? Witcher 3?

I'm not saying the combat in XV's demos has been super polished (although I've enjoyed its flexibility a lot), but this is in no way a fair comparison. You're not going to get combat design that tight in a game so massive. Everything has trade offs. Fine to call out the issues, but there's going to be a lot more to the game than just combat.

VI is still my favorite FF, and the combat in that is beyond brainless.

Those other action rpgs are western though, which almost unanimously struggles doing combat in RPGs period. Seriously, the only western rpgs I like for their combat are Baldurs Gate II, Divinity: OS, Dragon Age: Origins, and Diablo games. That's literally it for me. I don't have expectations for western games and combat.

But I do for Japanese.

I think this depends on your priorities and preferences. For me, combat is a HUGE part of rpgs and is one of main reasons I prefer Jrpgs over wrpgs. jrpg combat is flexible, diverse, highly experimental, highly strategic or as brainless as you want it to be. It's my favorite genre due in part of that. As I said earlier, I felt like FF combat systems have been really good since X, and I just find this to be a step back. V, VIII, XII, Tactics, and X-2 are my favorites and it's mostly because of their customization as well as combat. So Combat is a really important thing for my enjoyment of an jrpg.

I think saying that FFVI is your favorite FF and that it's brainless isn't fair to people like me who do place importance on combat.

I feel like this game could use Tri-Ace helping out with the action to make it better but it feels like it's way too late. Shame.

 

[Koozek]

You're saying this about FF1 PS1? Old FF's depend on the version. I beat the GBA version of FF1 without dying. It sucked but it wasn't always like that. FF1 ps1 is definitely not something where the random encounters always easy. The same can be said for II-V. You said you played the ds remakes as well. You seriously think FFIV ds is uninvolving? The game where you can have a death spell cast out on you outside the first town of Baron?

Yup, I only played the PS1 version of FFI. I remember using Auto-Battle in FFIV DS a lot. I don't remember much of and am not an expert on pre-FFVI FFs, though, as I said. They didn't leave much of an impression on me. FFVI is where the series started getting interesting for me.

FFVI is piss easy and when the game difficulty of the series took a major nosedive. I think it's easier than VII, in fact. Though, the series has been more mainstream friendly since IV and the last real difficult (besides Tactics) FF was III. The problem is mostly VI-IX.

Yeah, and a lot of those bash FFXV, wishing back turn-based combat, which irks me the most coming from FFVI-FFIX fans especially. I loved those games (FFVII is my all-time fave), don't get me wrong, but I can take off the nostalgia goggles and see that FFVII was already piss-easy and "Press X to win" instead of complaining that the remake will be a "stupid buttonmasher,why NOmura!11".

It's not inherently hypocritical. "Classic FF" can mean many things. It could mean a preference for the turn based combat in I-III. It could mean they prefer IV or V. I don't know. There's so many eras of "classic" FF - depending on you ask, four different eras - so saying it's inherently hypocritical is illogical and reductionist.

I'll give you that. But most of the time I'm responding to posts that are talking about ATB, which started with FFIV and you said yourself that it started to be easier since that one:

Though, the series has been more mainstream friendly since IV and the last real difficult (besides Tactics) FF was III.

Play FFV like normal then. Playing that game just holding attack is nearly impossible unless your grind or go out of your way to break the game. Play FFV sfc. The GBA and PS1 versions are just as good but in no way are they brain dead. Also, the comment about "doubting they get harder in the second half" is mind boggling considering a lot of the best games ramp up difficulty in the second half of their games and use the first half as a way to guide the player. Games that are all hard all the time are well and truly rare.

Eh, often in RPGs the enemies just have higher stats the further you get, but you can still use the same simple approach and general strategy as before, namely the usual, rote memorization patterns like "Use strongest attack until you need to use heal items/spell" and "Use Fire/Ice on red/blue enemies", which don't really challenge me or make me feel involved much after having played hundreds of JRPGs. FFVII second half surely doesn't get fundamentally deeper. Again: I'm talking about non-boss-battles, which make up most of the time you spent fighting in RPGs.

I generally just prefer it when turn-based systems have an extra twitch- or real-time element, that keeps me on my toes and requires quick thinking/decision-making, like in the Shadow Hearts, Baten Kaitos and Paper Mario series, or LR.

Quoting again one of my favorite posts from one of our battle-system discussions last year:

While I agree with you, I think that problem extends far beyond FF, and to almost every JRPG series.

The much-lauded difficulty of the SMT (and related Persona titles) comes almost entirely from a need to "think", or so people say, but really the vast majority of fights come down to the same sort of rote memorization. There is rarely a reason to not go into every single fight using your weakness-targeting attacks on each enemy, and then buffs/debuffs if you know you need them and/or know the enemy is weak to particular ones.

All of these systems that ignore things like positioning and timing tend to fall into the same position, IMO, and that's one of memorization and repetition being more important than any higher-level thinking or strategy.

It's one of the main reasons I like the move towards real-time, because it add another element of unpredictability.

Whatever, I'm tired and I honestly didn't want to start another hours-long discussion about battle-systems^^ Let's wait and see how FFXV will be over the course of the entire game, then we can talk again.

EDIT:

Ha, and how do other 100+ hour open world action RPGs compare to Ninja Gaiden's combat? Skyrim? Fallout? Witcher 3?

I'm not saying the combat in XV's demos has been super polished (although I've enjoyed its flexibility a lot), but this is in no way a fair comparison. You're not going to get combat design that tight in a game so massive. Everything has trade offs. Fine to call out the issues, but there's going to be a lot more to the game than just combat.

VI is still my favorite FF, and the combat in that is beyond brainless.

Exactly.
---

fixed.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=207149855&postcount=523

Oh, I see. Edited my post. Nice pic!

 

[Snaku]

Duscae was awful. Couldn't have hated the combat experience more.

 

[YankeeDonB]

Those other action rpgs are western though, which almost unanimously struggles doing combat in RPGs period. Seriously, the only western rpgs I like for their combat are Baldurs Gate II, Divinity: OS, Dragon Age: Origins, and Diablo games. That's literally it for me. I don't have expectations for western games and combat.

But I do for Japanese.

I think this depends on your priorities and preferences. For me, combat is a HUGE part of rpgs and is one of main reasons I prefer Jrpgs over wrpgs. jrpg combat is flexible, diverse, highly experimental, highly strategic or as brainless as you want it to be. It's my favorite genre due in part of that. As I said earlier, I felt like FF combat systems have been really good since X, and I just find this to be a step back. V, VIII, XII, Tactics, and X-2 are my favorites and it's mostly because of their customization as well as combat. So Combat is a really important thing for my enjoyment of an jrpg.

I think saying that FFVI is your favorite FF and that it's brainless isn't fair to people like me who do place importance on combat.

I feel like this game could use Tri-Ace helping out with the action to make it better but it feels like it's way too late. Shame.

Sure, I get the differing expectations for W and JRPGs.

But SR clearly wanted to make an enormous open world RPG, for better or worse, and that's going to come with some compromises.

I don't see how my love for VI is "unfair" to you though - I just like character, character progression, story, world building, and exploration in my RPGs. Combat is like icing for me. So maybe XV will better suit me than you. But maybe XVI will better suit you, the wheel is ever turning, and history grinds on!

 

[silva1991]

There's a hold to attack button in Final Fantasy 15? That sounds terrible

Not just that you also hold to dodge lol

and magic is terrible imo.

 

[YankeeDonB]

Not just that you also hold to dodge lol

and magic is terrible imo.

Of course, you can also press repeatedly to attack (with, admittedly, some animation priority some won't like), and there are perfect dodge mechanics that require precise timing. There's a lot more going on than just hold to attack/defend.

 

[Missingnomer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV-ANQvMkXg

Just thought I would re-post this video again because it really showcases the combat they way it is supposed to be played. When I played the Platinum Demo I thought the combat was clunky and bad too. But maybe, just maybe, it is not bad, but different. Crazy thought, huh?

Anyways, I think FFXV is going to have a combat system we aren't used to. So there is going to be a small learning curve. I think my fellow gafers can handle that, right?

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

That post from Vincent was good but I mean, it feels like it's simplifying things a bit.

For one, you might not always know the weakness and you have to experiment. Another thing, even when you know the weaknesses doesn't mean you'll automatically win. I've been wiped out by monsters 15 levels below me in SMT games. It also discounts item and resource management. Doing the same spell over and over is going to make you lose MP. The more you do it, the more you put yourself in danger. Those games don't hand out resources like candy so being careful with your magic is smart. I think that's one element people forget when critiquing turn based games. The difficulty doesn't work if you can easily get healing items and it's something lost on players, I think. I like the balance between risk and reward. Do I fight these enemies when I'm this low on MP and HP? Do I risk fighting without magic to reserve MP? Items in RPGs should be expensive, but items in FF games are cheap as hell. I always buy 20 potions when starting out in an FF game to give myself some breathing room, then I buy other items in increments of 5 or 10 depending on the price, but usually I can get a good stash of items and always stay comfy. A great rpg doesn't do that. In FFXII, one of my favorite things is how rare ethers are. MP is a viable resource in that game, and MP management can be the deciding factor in success or failure. I like weighing things like that in RPG and I think people don't give it enough credit and I find it equally as important as the combat itself.

It's actually the very thing I think might save XV and make it a must have: its MP system. I find its MP system to be refreshing, and at the very least, hacking away and mashing doesn't get you far because MP works as stamina. Genius addition. But how far it goes in the final game has yet to be seen. Great potential though.

Sure, I get the differing expectations for W and JRPGs.

But SR clearly wanted to make an enormous open world RPG, for better or worse, and that's going to come with some compromises.

I don't see how my love for VI is "unfair" to you though - I just like character, character progression, story, world building, and exploration in my RPGs. Combat is like icing for me. So maybe XV will better suit me than you. But maybe XVI will better suit you, the wheel is ever turning, and history grinds on!

I said it's not fair because you're placing your own preferences above others' and expecting others to agree because of what you value is more important in an RPG.

 

[MilkBeard]

My main disappointment with Final Fantasy XV is not with the game itself, but with the way SE has been showing it off. They have only been setting themselves up for disappointment.

The Uncovered event was surprisingly good, and I was shocked--I expected it to be more like what happened at E3.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

My main disappointment with Final Fantasy XV is not with the game itself, but with the way SE has been showing it off. They have only been setting themselves up for disappointment.

The Uncovered event was surprisingly good, and I was shocked--I expected it to be more like what happened at E3.

Yup uncovered brought the hype idk what they was doing with e3.

 

[MilkBeard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV-ANQvMkXg

Just thought I would re-post this video again because it really showcases the combat they way it is supposed to be played. When I played the Platinum Demo I thought the combat was clunky and bad too. But maybe, just maybe, it is not bad, but different. Crazy thought, huh?

Anyways, I think FFXV is going to have a combat system we aren't used to. So there is going to be a small learning curve. I think my fellow gafers can handle that, right?

this video does amaze me, mainly because I wasn't able to play that well with the demo, even though I still enjoyed it.

The real question is, will the developers give us some proper challenges that will draw out this need to master the controls? Only time will tell. I hope so, at least with the optional content in the game.

 

[Missingnomer]

this video does amaze me, mainly because I wasn't able to play that well with the demo, even though I still enjoyed it.

The real question is, will the developers give us some proper challenges that will draw out this need to master the controls? Only time will tell. I hope so, at least with the optional content in the game.

I would definitely expect optional end game missions to showcase enemies that would require at least this level of skill to defeat. This is a JRPG, after all

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Yup uncovered brought the hype idk what they was doing with e3.

I bet the general reception on this game, given every aspect of the final title was the same, would be completely different had it been announced and shown in a lengthy format like Fallout 4 was (Uncovered, but without us knowing about ten years of development in various forms, no Duscae/Platinum Demo, etc) and then just launched on Sept 30.

I'm confident the final game will be good, because Final Fantasy has yet to not be (IMO). I just don't see them dropping the ball here. But the presentation of this game as it's come along has been so thoroughly botched at nearly every turn that it amazes me.

 

[silva1991]

Of course, you can also press repeatedly to attack (with, admittedly, some animation priority some won't like), and there are perfect dodge mechanics that require precise timing. There's a lot more going on than just hold to attack/defend.

I know I tried mashing buttons and it felt off in both Duscae and platinum demos

the other dodge mechanic requires pressing two buttons iirc which isn't very comfortable for me(still appreciate it though)

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV-ANQvMkXg

Just thought I would re-post this video again because it really showcases the combat they way it is supposed to be played. When I played the Platinum Demo I thought the combat was clunky and bad too. But maybe, just maybe, it is not bad, but different. Crazy thought, huh?

Anyways, I think FFXV is going to have a combat system we aren't used to. So there is going to be a small learning curve. I think my fellow gafers can handle that, right?

Pretty good. I'll have an option mind the final game will be like that, but I mean, a lot of it just has the iron giant sitting there. People playing it well doesn't mean it's not clunky.

 

[VexMythoclast]

The gameplay is quite fun though I wish there was more weight when you swing a sword and perhaps they would loosen up on the Buster Sword swinging. I hope they fix the dodge mechanic as well, it gets tiring see Noctis on his ass time after time.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Pretty good. I'll have an option mind the final game will be like that, but I mean, a lot of it just has the iron giant sitting there. People playing it well doesn't mean it's not clunky.

Have u played the duscae demo? Trust me man you'll be begging for the iron giants stand still combat lol. The tusks ugh!!?

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Have u played the duscae demo? Trust me man you'll be begging for the iron giants stand still combat lol. The tusks ugh!!?

Nope. Missed out on it. Anyone got any codes, send em here.

 

[YankeeDonB]

I said it's not fair because you're placing your own preferences above others' and expecting others to agree because of what you value is more important in an RPG.

I'm sorry but I don't see how I'm doing that to any greater extent than anyone else trying to make a case for what they like.

Nor do I expect others to agree with me. I try to lay out my perspective in a clear way that others can at least understand, and sure I like to be agreed with (who doesn't?), but I don't expect it, and I'm pretty respectful of divergent viewpoints, including yours I think.

Think of it like this - you'd prefer more effort went into action combat, which would likely necessitate less toward something I'm more interested in (like world building and bestiary realism and diversity). Wouldn't by your own argument that be unfair to me? I don't take it as that though. You have the games you like, and your interests, and I have mine. They somewhat overlap, but obviously not entirely. We both try to make the case for our own interests, including when they conflict. That's not unfair, that's just discourse.

I'm not trying to be patronizing here - I just really don't think my attitude is fundamentally disrespectful or dismissive of those I don't fully agree with, and certainly not toward those like you who bother to actually make a case. To the extent it comes off that way it's just sloppy writing on my part or misinterpretation on the part of others.

 

[MilkBeard]

The gameplay is quite fun though I wish there was more weight when you swing a sword and perhaps they would loosen up on the Buster Sword swinging. I hope they fix the dodge mechanic as well, it gets tiring see Noctis on his ass time after time.

Yeah, one minor issue I have is that in a lot of cases, when you swing a big weapon, it doesn't seem to connect with much weight. It's primarily an animation thing too. It's a shame because the animations as a whole are excellent.

For example, if you are to compare to Dark Souls 3, when you swing a weapon, big or small, it really feels like you are hitting them hard. The sound effect, the animation and the enemy reaction all line up to give this feeling. That part is definitely lacking in XV.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Nope. Missed out on it. Anyone got any codes, send em here.

Damn nope no code. I know some people like duscaes combat better so I'd like to know how you'd like it.

 

[JBwB]

Nope. Missed out on it. Anyone got any codes, send em here.

I think all unused Duscae codes will have expired by now. You're better off watching a decent playthrough.

 

[MilkBeard]

Damn nope no code. I know some people like duscaes combat better so I'd like to know how you'd like it.

I personally liked Platinum Demo's combat better, mainly because I felt the ability to target and focus on single enemies was unreliable in Duscae.

This might have changed with the update to Duscae, because I primarily played Duscae 1.0. I updated to 2.0 and tried it out for a little bit but didn't really go deep.

EDIT: Considering I still have both Duscae and Platinum on my hard drive, I think I will go in and play and compare to see what the changes are.

 

[Mailbox]

Nope. Missed out on it. Anyone got any codes, send em here.

Sorry, codes don't work for that demo anymore

Spoiler

i missed out too

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

I personally liked Platinum Demo's combat better, mainly because I felt the ability to target and focus on single enemies was unreliable in Duscae.

This might have changed with the update to Duscae, because I primarily played Duscae 1.0. I updated to 2.0 and tried it out for a little bit but didn't really go deep.

Aw man you missed out in a bunch. The lock on was updated, dodge roll was added, side quests with particular party members bunch more too just too tired to remember lol

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I'm sorry but I don't see how I'm doing that to any greater extent than anyone else trying to make a case for what they like.

Nor do I expect others to agree with me. I try to lay out my perspective in a clear way that others can at least understand, and sure I like to be agreed with (who doesn't?), but I don't expect it, and I'm pretty respectful of divergent viewpoints, including yours I think.

Think of it like this - you'd prefer more effort went into action combat, which would likely necessitate less toward something I'm more interested in (like world building and bestiary realism and diversity). Wouldn't by your own argument that be unfair to me? I don't take it as that though. You have the games you like, and your interests, and I have mine. They somewhat overlap, but obviously not entirely. We both try to make the case for our own interests, including when they conflict. That's not unfair, that's just discourse.

I'm not trying to be patronizing here - I just really don't think my attitude is fundamentally disrespectful or dismissive of those I don't fully agree with, and certainly not toward those like you who bother to actually make a case. To the extent it comes off that way it's just sloppy writing on my part or misinterpretation on the part of others.

That's fair. By the way, I emphasize world as much as combat. Haha. I just think combat is more important because it's what you're mostly going to be doing for the tenure of the game. So I get that you place emphasis on the world. But for the first numbered FF to have an action rpg system, I feel like how good the combat is makes it a better selling point.

I know you're not trying to be disrespectful. It's just that your post ends with FFVI is your favorite FF and that the combat is brainless, and it feels like you're saying combat isn't important to you or any one else. It didn't feel like it was written to consider that yeah, you don't mind the combat issues in XV because you're in it for the world and exploration, and you understand if people with other preferences aren't as big on it. It felt more like you were saying, "combat isn't a big deal in this series and has never been a predictor of quality." It really felt like a statement of truth rather than a statement of mere opinion.

At least that's how I read it. I was wrong.

 

[MilkBeard]

Aw man you missed out in a bunch. The lock on was updated, dodge roll was added, side quests with particular party members bunch more too just too tired to remember lol

It's been a while since I played, so I think it's time to go back and try it out again with the update. Sounds like it will be much better.

 

[silva1991]

Sorry, codes don't work for that demo anymore

Spoiler

i missed out too

You guys play Platinum at least? or was that also unavailable now.

 

[Balls]

I understand why people aren't big on hold O to attack but I kinda get why they did that. The game encourages you to switch weapons mid combo with the d-pad as well as left stick directional input for different attacks and mid-air combo movements. Holding O allows us to focus more on the d-pad and left stick inputs.

 

[MilkBeard]

I understand why people aren't big on hold O to attack but I kinda get why they did that. The game encourages you to switch weapons mid combo with the d-pad as well as left stick directional input for different attacks and mid-air combo movements. Holding O allows us to focus more on the d-pad and left stick inputs.

It's very possible that system will make more sense once everything comes together in the full game. But from what I played, it didn't feel like it was necessary.

 

[DR2K]

It just looks incredibly boring. All the demos available have been nothing but dull. Type 0 sucked and the person who directed that is directing XV. Everything about it screams disaster. This is a game created out of a decade worth of delays, massive cut story content, etc...

Nothing about this game should inspire any hope. It doesn't help that 13, 14, and anything associated with those games is universally considered terrible to mediocre. (Barring the huge overhaul to 14)

This will be the first major Final Fantasy that I will not be rushing to play on launch day. Tons of great RPGs coming out this year and I have a huge backlog to contend with.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Sigh..Nd with that amount of hyperbole time to take a break. Hope the game is good. Hopefully the final version can turn some of you around. Can't wait September 30th!!!

 

[Mailbox]

You guys play Platinum at least? or was that also unavailable now.

I have, yeah (though the latest time I tried to play it, my ps4 straight up died (grrrr)). It's still available.

Platinum isn't a good demo. Just a tech demo that has poor frame rate, bad AA, and a stripped down battle system. The only fun part is the final battle with the iron giant which is too damn short and leaves a poor taste in my mouth after beating (you poof back into kid Noctis and nothing else after winning. Very unsatisfying).

The platinum demo really shouldn't have existed.

 

[YankeeDonB]

Damn nope no code. I know some people like duscaes combat better so I'd like to know how you'd like it.

What I loved in Duscae that wasn't in Platinum was the just guard/damage recovery move. Tight timing window, but felt super satisfying to warp recover out of a hit animation and get your health back.

That's fair. By the way, I emphasize world as much as combat. Haha. I just think combat is more important because it's what you're mostly going to be doing for the tenure of the game. So I get that you place emphasis on the world. But for the first numbered FF to have an action rpg system, I feel like how good the combat is makes it a better selling point.

I know you're not trying to be disrespectful. It's just that your post ends with FFVI is your favorite FF and that the combat is brainless, and it feels like you're saying combat isn't important to you or any one else. It didn't feel like it was written to consider that yeah, you don't mind the combat issues in XV because you're in it for the world and exploration, and you understand if people with other preferences aren't as big on it. It felt more like you were saying, "combat isn't a big deal in this series and has never been a predictor of quality." It really felt like a statement of truth rather than a statement of mere opinion.

At least that's how I read it. I was wrong.

Ok, I see what you mean. I definitely meant more the former than the latter. Like you, I appreciate the combat systems in X, X-2, XII, LR quite a bit, and definitely think they add to the quality of the games.

The thrust of my comment about VI was really just to emphasize that there are lots of great things historically about FF in addition to combat. In going massive open world, and with their focus on grounded realism (including animation priority), they've set a path that probably won't allow the tightest most responsive action combat. Hopefully it's still engaging and worthwhile, and I think it will be to an extent, but it's just one piece of what they're trying to deliver. To the extent combat jank is a trade off for these other factors (and not just poor design), I can see it as a reasonable trade off in line with the series' history. Not to say it's unequivocally the right balance, or it couldn't be better struck. But in the end combat will be only part of what this game tries to deliver, and for me it won't live or die by combat alone.

 

[PantherLotus]

Because of this thread I finally played that FFXV demo I DL'd a couple months ago.

Oh
My
God.

Disaster incoming. Needs to be scrapped completely. Or renamed.

 

[『Inaba Resident』]

Because of this thread I finally played that FFXV demo I DL'd a couple months ago.

Oh
My
God.

Disaster incoming. Needs to be scrapped completely. Or renamed.

You mean Duscae?
Old and outdated

 

[QaaQer]

80 even. By the internet standards it will be a failure.

70-75. Reviewers aren't keen on 50 to 100 hour games, ff doesn't have a fan base that legit scares reviewers (eg GTA), combat looks poor, sexist costumes, and it looks to be aimed at teens. The wildcard is the story and writing, a TLOU tier script could easily add 20 points onto my prediction.

 

[dramatis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV-ANQvMkXg

Just thought I would re-post this video again because it really showcases the combat they way it is supposed to be played. When I played the Platinum Demo I thought the combat was clunky and bad too. But maybe, just maybe, it is not bad, but different. Crazy thought, huh?

Anyways, I think FFXV is going to have a combat system we aren't used to. So there is going to be a small learning curve. I think my fellow gafers can handle that, right?

People keep posting that video, but it looks bad compared to its peers.

Nier Automata showed much smoother, less clunky combat in their E3 boss battle gameplay trailer.

Combat the way it can be played in Tales of Zestiria.

Combat the way it can be played in Star Ocean 5.

It's not that 15 is going to have a combat system "we" aren't used to. It's that it will have a subpar action system because it eschews the things that make action combat good. People who have played other action rpgs who have had their combat polished through many different iterations know that.