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What's with all the ubiquitous "nice guy" hate?
- Thread starter vordhosbn
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Steve Youngblood
Member
But to me, those various causes inform us as to why those guys are trying to be nice guys to get girls, not in regards to why "nice guys" seem to be more loathed than "bad boys" who are also out there playing "the game" (I promise to stop using quotation marks for the remainder of this post). In my opinion, our aspiring Prince Charmings are singled out not because of what they're attempting to do, but because they're buying into their own hype and are oblivious to the fact that it's a facade when they become bitter about their lack of success.etiolate said:
There is no real hate for genuinely nice guys. There's no hate for nice guys who also happen to be unsuccessful at dating. The ubiquitous hate for the quoted group refers to a third group entirely.
Steve Youngblood said:
I am not sure that third group is what its being claimed to be. And I think that people really don't distinguish between nice people and this supposed evil Nice Guy. I think they're just naive guys approaching* naive girls. The reasons they get hate is because of the surrounding system of how we approach relationships. To me thats why. It's also not their own hype is my other point. The hype comes from others and they buy into it, but its not their own hype. It's that hype being crushed that leads to resentment and then people say its awful that they feel resentment when it's really only natural considering the lies we've all been fed. There's this idea that others are above this lie, but I sincerely doubt it, especially when they follow up with another lie about "women want confidence". Some of this may even be product of resentment from going through that nice guy phase themselves, so it becomes a self-hatred of one's past projected onto others. I have doen this at times myself.
*And let's not forget that the relationship system still mostly relies on males being the hunter. These males are looking for a strategy to hunt with. The "nice guy" theory is common and pretends to offer success and the truth to what women want. Other males offer "I don't know" or the "asshole" perspective of what women want. Considering these options, it's not a surprise that young males go the nice guy routine.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Some people possibly don't. However, I do think that there's some bummed out "nice guys" who acquire more sympathy that others. And honestly -- at least to me -- it depends entirely on an arbitrary line in the sand that I've drawn. Is our sad sack just lamenting his position, or is he blaming the girl(s) for not falling for him? The former is entirely relatable. The latter is not.etiolate said:
I've never been a fan of "well, listen up Mr. Nice Guy as I spin you a yarn about how the game is played" responses, so I largely agree here.
Actually, there is no reason to hate anyone. There is no reason to hate nice guys, no reason to hate them more than the asshole guy. No reason to hate nice guys more than the girls that use them. If there is something to dislike then it's the causes that create the problems, but since people don't directly look at those, their anger gets attached to the things they cause. So thats why I bring up the causes. Maybe nice guy gets more hate because it is non-male ideal. I don't really know. It seems tied to the resentment and that's rather interesting.
PigSpeakers
Member
Flo_Evans said:
THE ONE.
Flo_Evans said:
Well if you're looking for a real relationship then yeah fate and luck and just patience I suppose. You are just what you are, so go ahead with that and hope you find someone that likes it.
If you're looking to hook up then false bravado will probably work.
Nobody can tell you how to find your princess.
Steve Youngblood
Member
In general -- be it in the realm of dating or not -- confidence is a good thing. However, it's not something that I advocate faking as a maneuver. Mind you, I'm not saying that it doesn't work, but I really don't like attempting to help people out by advocating they pretend to be something. By that, I mean that genuine confidence is a great thing. However, advocating for it often comes in the form of things like "be cocky, women love cockiness. Also, play slightly aloof and hard-to-get."Flo_Evans said:
Steve Youngblood said:
I don't think I have advocated that, my advice is to be honest. It is much easier to be confident in the truth than a projection.
etiolate, I have found my princess - just trying to share my happiness with others.
I could totally see myself making this thread 15 years ago, I think it is interesting to look back and see people making the same mistakes I did.
PigSpeakers
Member
Flo_Evans said:
Yeah, I know. I made fun of people in junior high who talked about the one. Never really agreed with it.
Steve Youngblood
Member
And I wasn't suggesting that you were. Just clarifying my response to etiolate.Flo_Evans said:
PigSpeakers
Member
Flo_Evans said:
Yeah, I've been once or twice. It's pretty fun.
I don't think its nice guy hate, people dog on guys who make the arguments that the OP makes because it reeks of entitlement and laziness. You don't see people ragging on the guys in the huge Girl age advice thread (at least not in the thread) because its full of guys who are just as unlucky, but have take the responsibility to at least get better and break out of that shell.
Side note: Don't let the entitlement justify your hate for these "nice guys", when in most cases it's women who expect to be asked out and expect men to initiate all social interaction. It's a blatant double standard.
Here's hoping that a thread on the topic of geeks getting laid doesn't necessarily imply that I don't. Hope you all got your giggles though.
I don't personally measure my completeness or incompleteness by my romantic status. My estimation of self-worth comes instead from my work. It's an arbitrary preference, much as it's arbitrary for some people to feel completed by a union with someone else. I'm smart, I'm driven, and I'm incredibly picky when it comes to the people I socialise with. Life is short, and just like everyone else does I make personal value judgments as to how best spend what little time I have. And in the end I'm quite happy--and still single.Calcaneus said:
Here's hoping that a thread on the topic of geeks getting laid doesn't necessarily imply that I don't. Hope you all got your giggles though.
Angry Fork
Member
Except when girls think those creative dates mean the guy is being cheap.Devolution said:
You still have to test it by going out on dates with them in the first place. I know a lot of high maintenance girls aren't necessarily going to call you out on it in the beginning, they'll go on your 'creative' date to get it over with, but you still end up paying for it and then they break it off after because she thinks you're cheap. Obviously this only applies to the high maintenance girl but the other poster just remarked that doing the statistic thing gets expensive which it does.sazabirules said:
sazabirules
Unconfirmed Member
Angry Fork said:
Then you're dating the wrong kind of girls.
Yep. Even women desperate for a relationship won't call a guy for a date. At the most, they will imply that they would like to be asked out.vordhosbn said:
I had a girl walk up to me on the street and imply that all she wanted to do that night was for me to take her out drinking and screw later on. She did everything but ask me out on a date, and I was somewhat disgusted that I was forced to take on the submissive role by being the "aggressive" one.
Though I guess I regretted it, I did pass her on.
[edit] I also had a girl interrupt casual sex to say "You want to do something crazy? [pause] Let's go out on a date." Exceptions to every rule...
ColonelColon
Member
FatalT said:
He seems to be implying that women are most attracted to wealth/power/status.
victreeb3l
Member
Angry Fork said:
is your creative date "fun" though? thats all that shit boils down to. youll occasionally run into a sour chick who will never be satisfied no matter what you do, but in general, as long as youre a good time you should be gold.
most of my "dates" involves walking around for a while and talking and improvising on the spot. i dont buy shit for girls anymore and i kind of stopped going on traditional dates like dinner or whatever. if youre fun to be around, you can make the girl youre with enjoy whatever the hell you do. you gotta give them a good reason to be around you.
perfectnight
Banned
Hazanko said:
Short and to the point. I love it. When I realized that I was trying to change who I was and doing things I was not comfortable with, just to try to get some girl's attention, I felt like the biggest dumb shit in the country. I realized this towards the end of 9th grade, and that same summer I got my 2nd gf (first one in 6th so it had been a while..) and I wasn't even trying to get with her, haha. Be happy with yourself and realize that you don't need a woman to do so.
Utako said:Yep. Even women desperate for a relationship won't call a guy for a date. At the most, they will imply that they would like to be asked out.
I had a girl walk up to me on the street and imply that all she wanted to do that night was for me to take her out drinking and screw later on. She did everything but ask me out on a date, and I was somewhat disgusted that I was forced to take on the submissive role by being the "aggressive" one.
Though I guess I regretted it, I did pass her on.
[edit] I also had a girl interrupt casual sex to say "You want to do something crazy? [pause] Let's go out on a date." Exceptions to every rule...
I mentioned this before, but honestly it's because gender roles/relations are in the process of change and completely undefined right now. People don't know what the rules are anymore. Women are given conflicting messages that we must be the equal of any man and be aggressive, but if we go after a man and take an active part in things we're considered either desperate or sluts. Men of course are told that women really want sensitive men and so it is important to be kind and sensitive, but then they get smacked down for not "having any balls". It's pretty screwed up and unfair for everyone, unfortunately. Hopefully eventually everything will work out and achieve a balance.
LaserBuddha
Member
Lissar said:
You wouldn't know it by the way some of the guys in this thread are being talked to. So much projecting going on.
TurboLibre
Member
FatalT said:
Not even remotely close. Look at how many threads are devoted to educating and promoting various activities. The creative writing thread, Summer Goals, the film/photography threads, Girl-Age, fitness, the list goes on. We have countless discussions devoted to people who are working on bettering their craft and their lives and a lot of members who are established professionals in said fields.
So can it with the trash talk. If gaf is so bad, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
(Last part was more directed towards the person you quoted)
Lissar said:
That's not entirely true. It depends on how you approach. If you think you're going to win the guys heart through his pants, then yeah. If you honestly just want to spend time with him and ask him out, anyone who would consider you a slut is stupid and not worth your time.
Coeliacus said:
Wow! That was really touching
Thank you so much! I hope I was able to make you feel better. And it does get better. You should have seen me when I got dumped by my last girlfriend, I was a wreck, and I knew it would take time, and it did, a lot of time.Exclamation-One said:
So then you got to ask yourself. Maybe she's a fucking bitch herself? Sometimes hard truths are hard truths, and the rose tinted shades need to come off. Do you really want to be with someone that wants that in a guy?
Harry Dresden said:
Totally, my folks LOATHE each other as people. They are not friends, never were friends, and wouldn't be married for 33 years unless they loved each other so much. For some people, that works. Its not my cup of tea, but it works when they still fuck each other to this day, both ways.
Flo_Evans said:This thread has now turned into ugliest dude with hottest chick!
Man, someone should of made me trim my beard better that day!
You just made my day
Dreams-Visions said:
Hey Flo! Tell your waifu that some dude on the internet something something who gives a fucking shit?
Angry Fork said:
Your post is all kinds of awesome.
I guess it can be tough, but the key between Carla and I is that we're interested in each other rather than what we like. We still do a lot of things together. She goes to the movies with me, I watch her buy shoes. Love is about not trying to get everything you want, but giving everything to the other. With that said the next thing I'm going to say is probably going to sound pretty ranty, so, by all means cut me down a peg or set me straight if I ruffle your feathers:
I have a huge problem with dating in the states. The problem is our society's values. We live in a country where apparently going on television and saying that since you run a business that makes you more qualified to be the president than someone who studied Constitutional Law. We worship business, therefore we try to apply it to things that honestly probably shouldn't be applied to.
What I mean is that we treat relationships as a business. At work I get annoyed when people call their significant other "pieces of shit" "lousy jerkasses" because something didn't go their way. I see people treat relationships like a company merger, which side is going to get out ahead in this deal? We watch romantic comedies where the douchey best friends of the romantic leads are trying to tell the protagonists, "You better get something out of all this." Why? Because secretly as a society we feel the same way. We glorify people that trample on the heads of others to make it in life. We don't watch reality shows to see people fall in love and be happily ever after, we watch reality shows where people are dysfunctional, where love breaks down, where someone gets screwed over in the process. We have tabloids about movie stars and their dysfunctional relationships.
Like I mentioned previously, I was going out with who I thought was a perfectly normal and nice girl that I thought I connected with. And then out of the blue she dumps me because it was her plan to make her ex-boyfriend jealous. Now I would have set myself up for this if I had known about her ex, but I'm not interested in the ex boyfriends.
Carla and I have our fights, our disagreements. Especially cultural ones. Back in Manila where she's not from, I had her come visit me at a hotel. She was about a mile away at the train station and I'm too lazy to go ride a jeepney to pick her up, so I call her and tell her to get a cab and I'll pay for the cab ride to the hotel. All in all it would cost 80 Pesos, 2 bucks at most. But in her infinite wisdom, somehow finds the only cab driver in Makati, that isn't from Makati district, and doesn't know where the fuck anything is. He spends 2 hours trying to find the place, has her call me repeatedly, has to talk to the hotel staff, and finally bungles his way to the hotel. Of course I was fucking pissed, I told the cab driver he doesn't deserve to be paid. Carla gets pissed off at me, because I did the non-asian thing of "instigating something" and pays the cab driver the 200 pesos that racked up on his meter. Yes the fucker was lost and had the audacity to have the meter running. She said I should be more empathetic because the guy doesn't know the area. I'm like, holy fucking shit, if he doesn't know the area he shouldn't be WORKING in that area. But again, its just an argument. We get over it, life goes on.
Anyway the point is we don't try to one up each other. We don't try to have our cake and eat it too when we can just share the cake with each other. If I was looking for someone to play video games with, watch movies, and be all nerdy with, I do it with my best friend. If I want to be in a real relationship, where we share everything, our minds, our thoughts, our bodies. I do that with Carla.
Tkawsome said:
Of course it isn't true 100% of the time, but this is often how people are thinking even if they don't realize it. It's changing of course, once such things would be seen as much worse (gasp! You spent an hour with that man alone? Your reputation is now ruined!) But enough traces of it are left to make many women hesitant.
On a related note, have you ever heard of "The Rules"? It's like "The Game" for women, only instead of concentrating on hook-ups it is how to get a man into a long-term relationship. I only read the first few, it was pretty ridiculous. In it, it tells you that you should not act as though you are interested. You should give him just enough, and then back off to make him chase you. It tells you that no man wants a woman who comes onto him. Once you're dating him, you have to hold off on sex for at least a month. To make him "respect" you. If you give it too soon he'll leave you right after.
I've always wanted to watch a guy who has read The Game trying to pick up a woman who has read The Rules. Quality entertainment.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
the solution is homosexuality.Lissar said:
JackEtc said:
I'm not calling you stupid, or dumb or hell wrong in anyway. But I've done the internet thing, way too many times.
You're really good friends. It hurts when she dates assholes, but you're not in a relationship. It hurts! But you're just really good friends. She's going to date people. When she dates people its going to cut into your friend time, its what happens when people get into relationships. Online or offline. My brother got married, my brother is one of my best friends, but now that he's married, he's married. I'm not going to jump into his shit cause we don't play Battlefield as much. When I get married, same thing is going to happen with all my IRC friends.
Just don't do what I did. I'll admit it out loud so you don't have to make the same mistake. I moved to another state for a girl I loved. And I really did love her. Big L love. After six months she realized she didn't love me and then moved away, leaving me in a state with no family or friends. Took me two years to dig out of that hole.
You have what we used to call a penpal. That's it. The idea of her is awesome, I mean she does a lot of things you do! Whats not to love? The thing is, that's all you're going to be, is penpals. It's awesome she can confide things to you nobody else ever has. She does it because for that exact reason: you're far, far away from her real life. You're her temporary escape from real life. But the fact remains, you're not real life to her. She may be to you, but dude, trust me, you aren't.
You can tell me "But you don't know her like I do" and "You don't understand the situation" and "Nevermind, you really just don't get it" but I can tell you. I do get it. I have been there. I wasted my entire 20s with that mentality not just with people online, but even people in real life. Surrogate relationships don't work.
If you were happy I'd say go for it, but the fact that you brought it up means you aren't exactly all happy about it. Honestly, the best thing you can do if you are developing "feelings" for someone online is to just cut them off. Thats what makes the internet so awesome, cut her off, drop her name from MSN chat, don't go to those online places. It'll save you a shitton of heartbreak, maybe save you from listening to Emo, and you'll probably find someone you'll really love if you don't keep putting this girl on a pedestal.
Chojin said:
She hasn't ever been in a relationship, similar to me. So the assholes thing doesn't really apply.
I'm not planning on moving anywhere, except to college.
And I am happy with the way things currently are, I brought it up to get opinions from people. Yet you still tell me it will never work out, and to give up a friendship that both of us value? Sorry, that only I value, because she's putting on a fake smile and doesn't care, because I'm "her temporary escape from real life".
I feel like a lot of you have just dealt with a lot of girls that were total pricks.
And even though you said you do, I really don't think you do understand. I think that you think you do because you fucked it up when doing it. I'm sure anyone who it worked out for would say the other way around.
But what was I was expecting, I'm asking the internet for advice, that was a stupid thing to do.
Professor Beef
Banned
I have something similar to what JackEtc is talking about. I'm not going to try and validate anything with "ohyeah it can totally work," because every situation is different for every person. What me and my friend made sure to do however was to agree that we're not going to "wait" for each other when it comes to a relationship. If one of us (or both) finds someone that we could really fall for, then we're going to go for it no questions asked.
I think that's the important thing; you can have a deep internet relationship, but you can't let it get so deep that you ignore the world around you. If I'm out and about with my friends and I happen to meet someone that I click with and really dig, I'm not going do something crazy and say "sorry, but I'm with somebody already" even though the person I claim I'm with is on the other side of the country.
I think that's the important thing; you can have a deep internet relationship, but you can't let it get so deep that you ignore the world around you. If I'm out and about with my friends and I happen to meet someone that I click with and really dig, I'm not going do something crazy and say "sorry, but I'm with somebody already" even though the person I claim I'm with is on the other side of the country.
Valjean Lafitte
Banned
Uncompromisable said:
Eh...I'm really trying not to get involved with this crazy thread, but I have to comment on what you wrote here. It sounds nice and all, but the more I thought about it, the more it just didn't add up. You say the moment your own source of positivity becomes them they no longer see value in you as a partner. But doesn't that sound a like, erm...falling in love? Falling for someone usually entails that person being a source of positive emotion in your life.
And the second part of what you wrote doesn't extend to all women. As far as I'm aware of, there are plenty of women who like being depended upon. I mean, hell, doesn't everyone want to feel *needed* to some extent or other? Even if you're a very independent, willful person, there can be no such thing as complete independence in a relationship. Without the slightest bit of dependence I don't think it be a relationship, or even a close friendship, it'd be--what--an association?
Valjean Lafitte
Banned
Utako said:
So this chick had the "crazy" idea of going out on a date...while having sex with you?
I'm only 27 years old, and I really want to think that the world hasn't changed much in my lifetime, but still, when I read stuff like that I wonder...WTF happened? And yet I realize that as time marches on it's not these people who are ass-backwards, I'm the one who seems ass-backwards for thinking they are ass-backwards. Maybe I was just raised old-fashioned, or "sex first, then date" is the norm after all.
Izayoi said:
Make it into something cool. As long as you talk passionately about it, you can pretty much bring up anything. "Oh dude, we totally need to watch this, it's fucking rad because blah blah blah" sort of thing.
Also, I'd like to let everyone know that I care for Chinner. Huge man-crush.
The problem is that most nice guys aren't really 'nice.' Watch how many of their behaviors change when they aren't getting the desired result from a female. See the disparity between how they treat a female they think is 'hot' and one that isn't. Taking a female out to dinner, listening to her problems and rushing to her every beck and call doesn't entitle one to a free trip into her pants or her heart.
scar tissue
Banned
Guys often start as genuinely nice guys and through the frustration of being friendzoned/rejected over and over again become "nice guys".
There is a gradual change between these two, not a clear-cut line.
As for me, i wouldn't consider me a nice guy OR a "nice guy".
I don't go out of my way to do anything for women and i certainly won't listen if they need a shoulder to cry on about their boyfriend or something, but I do value women as friends. As long as I'm not attracted to them too much, that is.
I have little success with the ladies, but that's due to social anxiety and not being too nice/creepy.
There is a gradual change between these two, not a clear-cut line.
As for me, i wouldn't consider me a nice guy OR a "nice guy".
I don't go out of my way to do anything for women and i certainly won't listen if they need a shoulder to cry on about their boyfriend or something, but I do value women as friends. As long as I'm not attracted to them too much, that is.
I have little success with the ladies, but that's due to social anxiety and not being too nice/creepy.
Seraphinianus
Banned
Alright listen up brahs here's how its done...*commence typical internet dating advice about this, that, the other, and a bunch of arbitrary rules that don't actually mean shit because this isn't an objective science*
there's really no nice guy/asshole paradigm at play, unless you're just trying to score. You might "friend" your way into someone's pants for an evening, but that'd be atypical. If you manage to do this, congrats, its more likely that you've started a relationship. You were strong for her and made a connection. You were nice, but real.
Although it was hilarious to see OP agonize over this, then get pissed in that stereotypical way.
there's really no nice guy/asshole paradigm at play, unless you're just trying to score. You might "friend" your way into someone's pants for an evening, but that'd be atypical. If you manage to do this, congrats, its more likely that you've started a relationship. You were strong for her and made a connection. You were nice, but real.
Although it was hilarious to see OP agonize over this, then get pissed in that stereotypical way.
Hawkian said:
It's every man's right to think that their wife is beautiful. Same as every woman's right to think the same back. Same as every mother's right to think their child is an angel. Same as every fat person's right to think a BigMac is the Mona Lisa of sandwiches.
Not everyone has to agree to make them feel better about it.
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