but escapring to a vr world does nothing to solve the actual problems in the actual world. i dont think people liking or using vr is a bad thing, new experiences are great, but using those experiences to escape from real, serious problems, while not attempting to stop the abuse and fix the issues in the real world isn't doing anything for their long term mental or physical health. obviously in many cases stopping the abuse or fixing the problems isn't easy and often not something one can do on their own, but advocating vr as an escape doesn't seem like the best idea to me
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
What's wrong with wanting to live in a virtual world?
- Thread starter HolyBaikal
- Start date
- Status
but escapring to a vr world does nothing to solve the actual problems in the actual world. i dont think people liking or using vr is a bad thing, new experiences are great, but using those experiences to escape from real, serious problems, while not attempting to stop the abuse and fix the issues in the real world isn't doing anything for their long term mental or physical health. obviously in many cases stopping the abuse or fixing the problems isn't easy and often not something one can do on their own, but advocating vr as an escape doesn't seem like the best idea to me
Thread title choice probably isn't the best.
I came in thinking live in the virtual world? You'll look like an idiot when the power goes out.
I don't know though. I think VR could be really cool when it becomes the next generation of video chat. How cool would it be to be in the same room as your brother/sister/cousin who lives on the other side of the world.
I came in thinking live in the virtual world? You'll look like an idiot when the power goes out.
I don't know though. I think VR could be really cool when it becomes the next generation of video chat. How cool would it be to be in the same room as your brother/sister/cousin who lives on the other side of the world.
Honestly nothing, there's a lot that's wrong with the world that is hard to or simply can't be changed. You see a lot of people posting the "I don't want to live on this planet anymore" image but few act against that resentment that they hold against what's unchangeable or what they lack the power to change.
What's left then? You could, like most do, simply abandon your vision of what a world should be (or at the least pretend you don't care about that anymore) and change your values accordingly or you could "build" a world to your image. To exist inside that perfect world is a desire that's shared across all of humanity, some desire it more strongly than others and likewise some are willing to go further in that pursuit than others.
We live in a world in which the masses look up to those who have a different, concrete, view of the world; be they politicians, artists, scholars or people that they know in their lives. That's the reflection of the dream they still have deep within themselves, it might not be the same world they wish for but they admire the different view on reality and that one was resolute to keep his view throughout his life, much like they wish they could had done for themselves.
Then you have the obligatory "what is reality" question, but I fear my post is long enough as it is.
On a more worldly view, if you can create or recreate something that can not exist in this world but you desire it to be then why not create it? Why not enjoy it if it's in your power to bring it one step further into reality?
What's left then? You could, like most do, simply abandon your vision of what a world should be (or at the least pretend you don't care about that anymore) and change your values accordingly or you could "build" a world to your image. To exist inside that perfect world is a desire that's shared across all of humanity, some desire it more strongly than others and likewise some are willing to go further in that pursuit than others.
We live in a world in which the masses look up to those who have a different, concrete, view of the world; be they politicians, artists, scholars or people that they know in their lives. That's the reflection of the dream they still have deep within themselves, it might not be the same world they wish for but they admire the different view on reality and that one was resolute to keep his view throughout his life, much like they wish they could had done for themselves.
Then you have the obligatory "what is reality" question, but I fear my post is long enough as it is.
On a more worldly view, if you can create or recreate something that can not exist in this world but you desire it to be then why not create it? Why not enjoy it if it's in your power to bring it one step further into reality?
thekiddfran
Member
Oh wow that was embarrasing!
OP: There are alot of things wrong with wanting to live in a virtual world.
If you find this ONE life you have on earth boring, you are doing it wrong completely. Our planet is fascinating and you want to spend it inside a room hooked into a virtual world with no real life rewards or consequences, no real sense of having someone to love or be loved. Instead spend your life with 1's and 0's?
I understand you want to spend it doing something you love which is videogames except with two lenses strapped to your face. At the end of the day it is still a video game, a piece of electronic entertainment.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Well, the real world still matters. I would never to do anything that would slow down technological progress in the real world. And even though we could probably do everything like go out into space and live there while in virtual worlds. It would still be us doing stuff in the real world.
But I think that a lot of things we can do in virtual reality. And I don't think that people will abandon the real world. Augmented reality and all sorts of technologies will make the real world much more fun. And people will be able to use virtual reality to do amazing things in the real world, too.
The last thing I would ever want would be for technological progress to slow down, ever. I want scientists to be inventing and discovering things. And people spending time in virtual worlds having fun instead of doing things that help humanity like having better technology would so so so awful. I want to live forever and save the multiverse, and copy my consciousness trillions and trillions of times. I will always want to work in the real world to save everything and everyone.
But I think that some things that are scary or hard in real life could be done just as well in virtual reality. One of the problems that I face "head on" is that I want to be more feminine. And a lot of the ways that I want to be more feminine I can't do as well with just hormone therapy. I want a... I want female anatomy. I mean... I want female reproductive organs. And I want to be shorter, and I want to have smaller shoulders, and smaller feet. And I want a cute, round, feminine face.
I've been getting hair removal surgery. And I can take HRT with breast blocking medicine so I can avoid curves. But to be shorter or have smaller feet or shoulders, I would need to get bone surgery. It's really scary and risky and expensive. I'd have to find a really qualified surgeon who knows what they're doing and would be willing to help. And I'd have to pay them a lot of money. Especially scary is that part of my height is because of my spine. I don't like that word, it's scary. But I'd have to have surgery on that. And while you can 3D print bones and all sorts of things are coming a long way. It would be a lot of money and research and it could be a lot safer!
I risk arthritis and other problems if I do this today. The more qualified the doctor is, the less likely it is to happen. But it is possible. And even more dangerous is my spine, it's really sensitive and delicate. And the more qualified the doctor is, the more money I have to pay. And I would need to get lots of cosmetic surgery on my face, too. If it doesn't get better and cheaper really quick, it might cost me millions of dollars to do something like that.
And there's no surgery to give me female reproductive organs yet. I could have something similar, but not yet.
In the meantime, if I can do that in virtual reality first. I would love to do that. It would be so much fun to have the body of my dreams. I feel so close and I'm so excited, but I feel so far away at the same time. If I can live the way I want to in virtual reality until I can do that in the real world, that sounds wonderful. Though, since some people would say that I should do it "head on". Maybe instead of hoping to do that in virtual reality, I should go back to college to try to do research so that I can do it to myself?
What things do you think you should do "head on" instead of escape to a virtual world for?
HolyBaikal
Banned
But in virtual reality, you can do a lot lot more than just that.
Matt Attack
Member
I look forward to the continued development of VR. In a hypothetical virtual world though, I would be wary of people neglecting the real world completely. Of course, if they have the means and desire to do so, then I think they should be allowed to, and I can certainly understand many of the reasons one might choose this path.
If there are elements of the real world that they aren't satisfied with, like in regards to how people treat them, then my (probably naive) view is that they should focus their efforts on improving the world, and correcting what they perceive as issues in society. The real world isn't going anywhere, and though it has a lot of issues, I think there's still value in it's existence. Escaping to VR and blocking out the real world would be almost like lying to yourself. It may feel good temporarily, but in the long run, I don't think it solves anything. I believe it's better to try your hardest, even if it seems futile at times, to make the world a better place. It may seem like there are a lot of horrible people in the world, but there are a lot of good ones too.
HolyBaikal, I'll echo the sentiment that I enjoy reading your posts. You've always seemed to me to be a particularly kind person, and I appreciate that.
If there are elements of the real world that they aren't satisfied with, like in regards to how people treat them, then my (probably naive) view is that they should focus their efforts on improving the world, and correcting what they perceive as issues in society. The real world isn't going anywhere, and though it has a lot of issues, I think there's still value in it's existence. Escaping to VR and blocking out the real world would be almost like lying to yourself. It may feel good temporarily, but in the long run, I don't think it solves anything. I believe it's better to try your hardest, even if it seems futile at times, to make the world a better place. It may seem like there are a lot of horrible people in the world, but there are a lot of good ones too.
HolyBaikal, I'll echo the sentiment that I enjoy reading your posts. You've always seemed to me to be a particularly kind person, and I appreciate that.
HolyBaikal
Banned
It's amazing, is what it is.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I don't know, when I was a teenager I thought that virtual reality would be the most awesome thing ever. And then when the whole oculus thing happened and VR was forced to the forefront again...my reaction was complete apathy, with just a tinge of disdain. Not for everyone excited about it or anything that broad, just a mild sensation of distaste
I just think something like VR will be easy to abuse for people who are unhappy with the real world. That is a lot of people, some who might not even know it. You may say its their life or whatever, but that type of escape isn't healthy and doesn't solve any problems. Of course, I hope people are responsible with things like VR, but I don't bet on it.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I have a feeling you'd find that most people who "complain" about VR and escapism are unable to put down their damn smartphone for more than two minutes.
Escapism is nothing new, it's been around for centuries. Millennia, even. Only the methodology has changed. Stories became books that became plays and movies and now games.. VR is just the next step. It's not good or bad, it just is.
For me, it's not even about escapism (at least I don't tend of think of it as such). If I'm zipping around the cosmos in a spaceship, I'm doing in the Rift because it's fekkin' awesome as opposed to pretty much anything else.
Escapism is nothing new, it's been around for centuries. Millennia, even. Only the methodology has changed. Stories became books that became plays and movies and now games.. VR is just the next step. It's not good or bad, it just is.
For me, it's not even about escapism (at least I don't tend of think of it as such). If I'm zipping around the cosmos in a spaceship, I'm doing in the Rift because it's fekkin' awesome as opposed to pretty much anything else.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Thank you!
Hey, I do that, too!
Transitioning is a really slow, hard, and sometimes scary thing.
So it's so much fun to play a video game and be the gender and have the body type you want to be.
frostshade
Neo Member
OP needs to read this or watch the anime:
.hack//Sign anime
It might explain a lot more than I can to you about virtual reality.
Personally I view reality similarly to how you view virtual reality because reality is based on the processing of sensory data in our brain which is aided by cognitive functions as well.
.hack//Sign anime
It might explain a lot more than I can to you about virtual reality.
Personally I view reality similarly to how you view virtual reality because reality is based on the processing of sensory data in our brain which is aided by cognitive functions as well.
Well... this thread just got a lot deeper...
I think I'd need to have an actual face to face conversation with you to even begin to respond to all that with what I feel would be an appropriate level of care and consideration.
(For whatever that's worth to the topic at hand)
If I could I'd just be a brain in a jar and just be hooked up to a variety of Matrix-like worlds for eternity. For dead serious, keep my brain in a jar forever. Just as long as it all was as real as the Matrix that'd be amazing. Hopefully my girlfriend would be okay with just being a brain together with me forever too.
As for the current VR and headsets and such, I don't see a problem with it at all as long as you keep yourself healthy and shit. It's no different than any other hobby and putting time into playing regular games or watching TV and the like. Also multiplayer VR would be a really amazing social experience imo. People who think VR is anti-social are loony toons. That's like calling MMOs anti-social. I think multiplayer VR will be the most social gaming experience ever. You don't have to be sitting with people face to face IRL right next to you to be "social".
I think if anything there's a lot of potential to help and treat people who have social anxiety disorders with VR. As someone who has dealt with agoraphobia and a lot of medical issues and severe physical pain for most of my life I definitely look forward to it.
As for the current VR and headsets and such, I don't see a problem with it at all as long as you keep yourself healthy and shit. It's no different than any other hobby and putting time into playing regular games or watching TV and the like. Also multiplayer VR would be a really amazing social experience imo. People who think VR is anti-social are loony toons. That's like calling MMOs anti-social. I think multiplayer VR will be the most social gaming experience ever. You don't have to be sitting with people face to face IRL right next to you to be "social".
I think if anything there's a lot of potential to help and treat people who have social anxiety disorders with VR. As someone who has dealt with agoraphobia and a lot of medical issues and severe physical pain for most of my life I definitely look forward to it.
There are so many nuances to human body language that aren't picked up through text, though. Eye movement, body movement, breath, speed of talking, and so on and so on. Missing out on all of that is a really big deal.
As for the topic overall, I don't think it's good to run away from reality, and it's against our very nature as... well, living beings. Humans are an extremely social species - online interactions are great, but it's really not the same. If large large numbers of people fall into the trap that is VR as a replacement for reality, we'll likely contract the same problems Japan currently has and fail to sustain ourselves.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Maybe text can add new things, though.
claude.labonte
Member
Yeah that was my point exactly! What we are actually saying is the least important thing when communicating, where para-verbal and non-verbal plays a lot more.
Also how would we express and live our sexuality with VR? It's one of our most basic needs and it's impossible to simulate it.
BRocknRolla
Member
Clearly there's a lot going on here, HolyBaikal. Ideally, I would wish for you to occupy the body and identify you felt the most comfortable in, and I support efforts to approach that in a real world context because I want you, and everyone, to feel welcome in the real world. I guess with technology being what it is now though, we have to strike a balance in transforming our real world selves and playing the genetic hand we have been dealt. And I would hope in that balance you can find happiness. But these are complex issues and what you want or need is for you to figure out.
The ultimate point of what I've attempted to contribute here is only an understanding that the real world is a very important place that we should all care about to a greater degree than we care about any virtual world. That it isn't an ideal or kind place for many people is awful, but that won't change unless people do something about it. If we embrace VR worlds to the detriment of reality, I fear that things will get far worse rather than better as others in this thread have illustrated. So enjoy your virtual worlds, but remember that there's still a real one out there that needs you.
And with that, I'll bow out of this exceedingly interesting and complex conversation. Be good NeoGAF. These are the threads I hang out on here for.
Polioliolio
Member
I find it incredible that there's a real world that can exist in complexity, that matter can not only evolve to consciously be aware of itself, but that matter can then create an entirely different plane of existence virtually.
In 100 or 200 years, imagine how convincing VR will be.. or rather, imagine the type of AI that might be built. Entire organisms written in code, similar in complexity, or even the same in complexity, as a real organism is genetically written.
Artificial organisms existing virtually, should they experience consciousness in some way, may be the next step of complexity from the periodic table, to organized, living elements.
In 100 or 200 years, imagine how convincing VR will be.. or rather, imagine the type of AI that might be built. Entire organisms written in code, similar in complexity, or even the same in complexity, as a real organism is genetically written.
Artificial organisms existing virtually, should they experience consciousness in some way, may be the next step of complexity from the periodic table, to organized, living elements.
HOMEBOY OVER HERE
Banned
humans are not meant to sit in front of screens all day
look at how obesity is rising
look at how people are trying to escape their real lives and spend it pretending in a video game world
there is a ton of things wrong with wanting to spend so much time playing video games and wanting to live in a virtual world
look at how obesity is rising
look at how people are trying to escape their real lives and spend it pretending in a video game world
there is a ton of things wrong with wanting to spend so much time playing video games and wanting to live in a virtual world
HolyBaikal
Banned
.hack is one of my favourite anime! I fell in love with virtual reality and MMORPGs because of it. And I played Final Fantasy XI because I thought it was so wonderful! .hack was a huge inspiration to me as a teenager!
TheVampire
Banned
I wish that Sword Art Online VR stuff was real.
When the whole escapism is bad argument comes into discussion, I always wonder about those that aren't able bodied people and what they think about it. People that can't walk, or do the most basic tasks for example. Some people are never going to truly experience what life has to offer. From riding a roller coaster to scuba diving, would it be wrong for them to want something like this? Maybe not so much live in it, but at least have this as a hobby.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I mean, Bakai, I respect the deeply personal connection the idea of living another life has for you, but when you talk about living a life free of "mean" people and what sounds like a life free of genuine uncomfortable challenges to ourselves (not to be mistaken for voluntary challenges)...it sounds like a road to intellectual death. Its cliche but overcoming strife really is how we grow as people
You're welcome. :3
The very idea of "transitioning" is so paralyzing that it, alone, is enough to deter me from pursuing it (and you can forget about the monetary costs...).
However, I do have some pretty acute social anxiety, so that's probably at least part of the reason. Speaking of social anxiety...
The funny thing about this is that I already have severe social anxiety disorder and have a very hard time communicating face-to-face, and VR isn't even here yet. I don't think VR is actually going to be a negative influence in that regard, any more than smartphones and the Internet itself already have been. It's just more of the same, really, at least until we get to that point where our virtual avatars are as emotive as our real-world selves.
Same thing with sexuality, for that matter. 25-year-old virgin here, and I'm not in any hurry to get laid anytime soon. But then again, you know, transexual and all that...
It's pretty freakin' crazy, isn't it? We've come so far from the times when where we were living on the skin of our teeth and beating up animals with sticks and stones. We've still got a long way to go, too. I can only hope that we don't fuck it all up on the way there...
INORITE?!
I'll be honest, I'm having a hard time thinking of practical reasons why humanity wouldn't be better off in the Matrix. Assuming you could get around the health issues associated with inactivity and ignore the bullshit "You die in the Matrix, you die for reals" thing.
Of course the Machines would need to be able to deal with natural disasters and all the other fun stuff that our current reality has to kill us with. Sabotage and/or abuse of the system from other humans would be a concern as well.
Of course the Machines would need to be able to deal with natural disasters and all the other fun stuff that our current reality has to kill us with. Sabotage and/or abuse of the system from other humans would be a concern as well.
Well, like what? We can use that facial motion capture (though I have no idea how that would work with a VR helmet on your head tbh) which helps with one to one vocal conversations online, but in an MMO environment it's important to have text just because our brains parse sound in a completely different and unique way from a computer. If you're in a crowded room full of people like a restaurant, it's natural to simply tune out who you're not talking to. Computers can't do that in MMOs though, because it'll never know who in particular you want to listen to without some kind of input on your part, which just isn't natural.
Text though puzzles me. I really don't think there's a way to make that anywhere near as expressive as actual speech.
I didn't really want to mention that just because there's a lot of people that are asexual irl anyway, but it was on my mind, yeah. On a personal level my greatest life goal, above all else, is to form a family with a woman I love. VR will never provide that. But I know it may be more important to me than other people, so eh. Won't judge if people don't care.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I think that's wrong. Everyone should have some challenges I guess, and grow. Video games themselves are challenging.
But people shouldn't have trauma. And that's a lot of what other people give to other people in this world. Somewhere around 1/6 women are raped, it sounds like. I don't like even thinking about how horrible those things are. I don't like using words like trauma or rape. But they happen, and they happen a lot.
People shouldn't have to be abuse or risk being abused all the time. People should be happy while helping other people.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Avoiding trauma is one thing. But the thing about a virtual world is that its entirely under control. There's no need for anyone to encounter anything that makes them uncomfortable if they're happier not, even if that the exposure would help them grow. There's no need for any genuine challenges that stimulate growth and adaption if a parade of challenges that can satiate the need for accomplishment can be provided instead.
The cool thing is that once virtual expressions and communication get good enough, the same traits that let people excel socially in real life will translate directly to the virtual world. Both awkwardness and social grace will be readily apparent, so you'll be able to read people online much more easily than you do now. I think that will make online communication much more fluent for people who are already comfortable socializing in the real world, so more people will be willing to adopt it.
I really liked the games though. Wish I did'nt sell those
I must say this is an interesting thread to read. I'm very sorry about your unhappy experiences HolyBaikal and others. I wish life could be easier and everyone happy, but I know that's probably not an achievable reality. At the same time, I know that personally I wouldn't want to throw away the real world, even with all its ugly warts and bumps. I can't pretend that stuff doesn't exist or did'nt happen I hope you guys come to a place where you feel the same way and can achieve what you want here.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I don't think that being uncomfortable is very uncomfortable. Being uncomfortable is a bad thing. People should be happy, being uncomfortable isn't happy.
I don't think that pain really makes people grow. I think it's a sad.
Wait, what?
Maybe in a single-player space, but in a multiplayer one? All of the same challenges are there, just on a different level, and you can block other users. Of course particularly bad things can't happen to you (unless the game is designed for it) but those particularly bad things all lead to trauma anyway. You'll still have interpersonal relationships that ebb and flow just as much as they do IRL. I mean, geeze, anyone who's played an MMORPG can tell you that much.
frostshade
Neo Member
Not gonna happen ever.
I do think people have to selectively ignore certain things about reality in order to remain sane though.
HolyBaikal
Banned
What's not going to happen?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
There are people who are uncomfortable with the very idea of transexuality. Wouldn't overcoming that discomfort be a good thing?
frostshade
Neo Member
I dont think humans can live together in harmony.
*insert* I understood that reference.gif
HolyBaikal
Banned
People should be empathetic. But people should be free to be innocent and kind without fear.
People shouldn't have to fear horrible terrible things like rape. People shouldn't have to be around people who are mean to them.
I want to be able to express what I love and what makes me happy. My gender and my sexuality and my hobbies. With other people who love and appreciate me and what I love and what makes me happy. Not mean people who I don't have things in common with. I think they should be able to like what they like, they don't have to like everything that I like. But I don't want to be hurt by them.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
That is where you are wrong.
Wanting to live in a virtual world is fine. Escapism is unhealthy and not fine. It's about the intent behind wanting to visit that virtual world that matters. If it's to escape real life, it's probably unhealthy. If it's to explore another world or take a break from real life, then it's ok. That said, I can see virtual worlds being used as a sort of therapy for those with an illness once we hit VR - having someone with cerebral palsy run around a virtual track, for example.
We're in the best period in history to live because enough people were uncomfortable and tried to make things better instead retreating into their shells
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I've never played an MMO that demanded as much from me or did as much for me as my best real life accomplishments, almost all of which required me to step outside my comfort zone at the time, something a virtual world does not require if its designed purpose is to keep people complacent by not requiring too much of them
- Status