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[#Phonepunk#]

nah i think the entire "casual fan"/"super fan" dichotomy is fucked. like, this is a giant, huge film, shown all over the world, to hundreds of millions of people, over decades, there are going to be way more casual fans than super fans.

IMO you can feel however you want about the movies. but shitting on people for not following a movie closely enough or whatever is really lame. it's the worst. SW was built on encouraging the popular imagination. going against that (IMO a lot of ST does this) is cynical and destructive and only encourages similar behavior. gatekeeping needs to leave the series IMO.

plus, i dunno maybe Han Solo will be a force ghost in the next film? they can retcon is force connection as easily as TLJ retconned being able to die from using the force. it's all just made up bullshit at this point, why even cling to the idea that "Han Solo would never be a Jedi"? SW is whatever the guy writing/directing the current entry decides it is. if Solo turns out a secret Jedi (and at this point he already turned out to have secretly funded the rebellion) it would be entirely within their rights, cos they own the copyright. it's like two peasants fighting over a plot of land while the king decides to just take it for themselves.

 

[Sub_Level]

I dont get the hate against the soy boy crying at star wars trailer. He experienced more happiness in a couple minutes than many people do in a month.

 

[sol_bad]

As a super fan (ex?), it annoys the shit out of me talking to casual viewers.

I was talking to my brother before force awakens came out, making predictions and stuff.

He said he thought Han Solo would be a Jedi.

People say they like Star Wars when they don’t give a shit about it and they ruined it for the real fans....REAL FANS!

Who are the real fans? Someone who likes 3-6 movies out of the 10 released or someone who likes 10 out of the 10 movies released?

 

[Weilthain]

Who are the real fans? Someone who likes 3-6 movies out of the 10 released or someone who likes 10 out of the 10 movies released?

7 out of the 8 so far from the main trilogies.

Anything less and you probably think han solo could be a Jedi as well

 

[Aurelian]

nah i think the entire "casual fan"/"super fan" dichotomy is fucked. like, this is a giant, huge film, shown all over the world, to hundreds of millions of people, over decades, there are going to be way more casual fans than super fans.

IMO you can feel however you want about the movies. but shitting on people for not following a movie closely enough or whatever is really lame. it's the worst. SW was built on encouraging the popular imagination. going against that (IMO a lot of ST does this) is cynical and destructive and only encourages similar behavior. gatekeeping needs to leave the series IMO.

plus, i dunno maybe Han Solo will be a force ghost in the next film? they can retcon is force connection as easily as TLJ retconned being able to die from using the force. it's all just made up bullshit at this point, why even cling to the idea that "Han Solo would never be a Jedi"? SW is whatever the guy writing/directing the current entry decides it is. if Solo turns out a secret Jedi (and at this point he already turned out to have secretly funded the rebellion) it would be entirely within their rights, cos they own the copyright. it's like two peasants fighting over a plot of land while the king decides to just take it for themselves.

This is why I don't get those who rail against TLJ because it allegedly 'failed' Luke. I'm sorry, but Johnson and crew were not obligated to create the Luke that a subset of hardcore fans have in their head, the badass Luke that's really just a manifestation of their teenage power fantasies.

There are limits for the sake of consistency and the like, of course, but ultimately it's the movie creators' baby. They're free to shake things up if they have an artistic goal or just think it'll make more money. And what frustrates many of the TLJ haters is that it was still a successful movie -- you don't have to like the movie, but you also shouldn't pretend that no 'real' fan liked the movie.... because many did.

 

[pel1300]

This is why I don't get those who rail against TLJ because it allegedly 'failed' Luke. I'm sorry, but Johnson and crew were not obligated to create the Luke that a subset of hardcore fans have in their head, the badass Luke that's really just a manifestation of their teenage power fantasies.

There are limits for the sake of consistency and the like, of course, but ultimately it's the movie creators' baby. They're free to shake things up if they have an artistic goal or just think it'll make more money. And what frustrates many of the TLJ haters is that it was still a successful movie -- you don't have to like the movie, but you also shouldn't pretend that no 'real' fan liked the movie.... because many did.

Successful as in being a direct sequel to a very well received movie:

X-Men 3: the highest grossing X-Men movie at the time due to good faith earned by X-men 1 and especially X-Men 2

Spider-Man 3: the highest grossing Spider-Man movie at the time due to good faith earned by Spider-Man and especially Spider-Man 2.

What do they have in common? They are both hated by their target audiences and were lucky enough to ride off the hype of X-men 2 and Spider-Man 2.

 

[PaddyOCanager]

Disney can't afford to lose the superfans. There are too many entertainment options these days to support Disney's investment in Star Wars without the hardcore base.

Their theme parks, merchandise sales and new streaming platform rely heavily on star wars being more than just casual franchise. They are literally launching Disney+ with the mandalorian as the main sell. You tell me if a casual fan even knows what a mandalorian is or that it's star wars related.

So when will star wars fandom stop being a cult? When Disney decides it no longer needs to make money on the franchise and lets it die.

 

[Aurelian]

Successful as in being a direct sequel to a very well received movie:

X-Men 3: the highest grossing X-Men movie at the time due to good faith earned by X-men 1 and especially X-Men 2

Spider-Man 3: the highest grossing Spider-Man movie at the time due to good faith earned by Spider-Man and especially Spider-Man 2.

What do they have in common? They are both hated by their target audiences and were lucky enough to ride off the hype of X-men 2 and Spider-Man 2.

That's a poor correlation. It assumes TLJ is the exact same (a sub-par movie riding the coattails of a better one). And "target audiences?" I'm pretty sure Disney/Lucasfilm's target audience was "as many people as possible." That and there's a tremendous irony to grousing about this in a conversation thread that decries gatekeeping... you know, what you're doing.

 

[plushyp]

This is why I don't get those who rail against TLJ because it allegedly 'failed' Luke. I'm sorry, but Johnson and crew were not obligated to create the Luke that a subset of hardcore fans have in their head, the badass Luke that's really just a manifestation of their teenage power fantasies.

Take in mind this is coming from someone who isn't a fan of Star Wars but always appreciated the thought and work that went into making something so imaginative. The film 'failed' Luke in the sense that it was a tragic character derailment. And Rian Johnson did it just so he could contrast Rey's character with Luke. That's it, there was no nuance to it and Rian's so-called "subversions" only made him fall into the trap of relying on cliche and tired tropes like making Luke a crotchety, weird old man.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

thing is, that one Luke is just a strawman. it is the only strawman that makes the Last Jedi work. but not everyone wanted super powered Luke. not everyone even cared that much. people can't continue to insist people wanted this one thing. it is blaming the audience for the film not doing it's job of selling a story.

personally I would have been fine if Luke disappeared for the entire film. the movie opens and he throws away the lightsaber and she leaves. that would have been hilarious. then we have 1.5 hours entirely new adventures. why not that? i would have welcomed it. if he wants to reject the force, that is his decision, and I was looking forward to the movie even after that trailer came out with him saying "It's time for the Jedi to end". but he didn't do that at all.

the main thing with Luke is, this is the first time we are shown that someone dies from using the force. this is a new concept. one I do not like tbh. it gives the Jedi an even weirder, more sinister tint to it, now they are these warrior monks who will potentially kill themselves in order to wield power. the force doesn't work that way. Yoda did not expend a bunch more energy raising the X-Wing because size matters not, the physical world is an illusion, etc. again The Force is a religion now. it's not about power levels, it's this ethereal thing, even someone like Rey can use it with no effort. so when a Jedi dies from a heart attack, I have to wonder what is going on? now the force takes effort? at that point the force is almost like a drug, it is a dangerous thing, you might die from using it, but it enhances you. then there is the sad realization that he died alone, using this dangerous enhancement, sitting on a rock, crying, thinking of his nephew, who screamed "Nooooo!" at him right before he died, from across the galaxy. why do people think Luke dies a happy death here? how is this supposed to translate into a good send-off? wow little kids will play with toys in the future, the big finale is a new version of a 40 year old toy commercial.

so you see, there are all these questions raised, none of them having anything to do with "Why isn't Luke a Dragon Ball Z hero?" frankly i am sick of that strawman, because the movie itself exploits it anyway. it is set up by Luke himself, saying "Do you think I'm going to" before describing the literal end of the movie. you don't get to shame people for liking a Dragon Ball Z Luke when you think him standing up in front of a bunch of AT-ATs and doing Matrix dodge moves and shoulder dusts is cool. nope. sorry. look, if you can't understand why people have a problem with Luke, that is your issue. it has nothing to do with some expectation. the writers merely failed to produce anything interesting or coherent.

 

[poppabk]

Disney can't afford to lose the superfans. There are too many entertainment options these days to support Disney's investment in Star Wars without the hardcore base.

Their theme parks, merchandise sales and new streaming platform rely heavily on star wars being more than just casual franchise. They are literally launching Disney+ with the mandalorian as the main sell. You tell me if a casual fan even knows what a mandalorian is or that it's star wars related.

So when will star wars fandom stop being a cult? When Disney decides it no longer needs to make money on the franchise and lets it die.

The super fans are a miniscule minority. I have seen every single star wars movie, at least 5 of them in the theater. I have watched the original trilogy movies 5 or 6 times. But I am still a casual fan. Don't care about what is canon, haven't looked into the expanded universe, don't know the names of half the characters - they will always be lizard guy and guy with bandages to me. Likewise I have seen all the marvel movies, which is some 20 plus movies, but I am totally a casual marvel fan.
They are just big blockbuster movies to me, that's all I need them to be.

 

[pel1300]

That's a poor correlation. It assumes TLJ is the exact same (a sub-par movie riding the coattails of a better one). And "target audiences?" I'm pretty sure Disney/Lucasfilm's target audience was "as many people as possible." That and there's a tremendous irony to grousing about this in a conversation thread that decries gatekeeping... you know, what you're doing.

No it doesn't assume TLJ is the exact same. It just shows a pattern of poorly received sequels making more money than prior movies in franchises. You can add Thor 2 making much more money than Thor 1 to the list. And if I edited my post to delete target audience and insert general audiences it wouldn't change the point.

What does gate keeping even mean in this context?

 

[manfestival]

All superfandom becomes cult. Just seems more apparent in Star wars cause the fans are... well more. Look at Harry Potter, Marvel, DC, and many more including Fast and Furious(YEAH IT EXISTS HERE TOO BUDDY and they feel more cultish for being more underground feeling).

 

[#Phonepunk#]

They are just products, like them or not, the only thing really cultish is people that can’t stand others who have differing opinions. These people need to get a grip because the wider the audience gets for these things, the less consensus there will be. There are still people mad that others don’t mind the prequels and it has been 2 decades.

I do think it’s fine to call out when companies exploit this since they create further division. But fan wars are in their best interest because it promotes consumption. The true fan is the most loyal consumer. This is the kind of gatekeeping they encourage.

RJ didn’t do anyone any favors by planting online talking points throughout his film and effectively turning Luke into an internet troll, encouraging that behavior. Time will tell if this fan weaponization was a good or bad idea