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Where do you draw the line on if a game is an RPG?

So I was listening to the axe of the blood God podcast and one of those talked about how horizon was barley an RPG and more of a far cry game. I had always considered even those games to be light RPGs, alongside stuff like Dishonoronerd and even Assissans Creed.

With RPG elements in almost every game these days what do you consider to be an RPG in today's market. For example would Breath of The Wild, Prey, or the new mddle earth game be considered apart of the genre.

The things I look for in an RPG are:

Extensive levels of Customization (Equipment, skills, stat allocation)
Freedom of choice (Dialogue options, Mission Structure that can affect future events through success or failure, exploration)

Ultimately, the more personal and unique I can make my experience in the game, the more I view it as a Role Playing Game. If the role I am playing feels unique to my, that's an RPG in my opinion.

A game like Far Cry that has a Skill Tree never feels like it can be a truly unique experience. Same with any Zelda game. Ultimately, those games are very linear and don't offer a lot of depth when it comes to personalizing your experience to yourself.
 
Is "The Division" an RPG?

Is Smash Brothers a fighting game?

I'd say no to both but I have a more old-fashioned sense of what makes an RPG/Fighter

Bah humbug!

The first is stats and XP based, involves loot, custom characters, and leveling up. It's an RPG.

The second one involves 2 characters, or more, FIGHTING each other to ring out or remove the health of another. It's a fighting game.

I find fighting/arguing over tiny little details to remove a game from a certain "genre" ridiculous.
 
For me the line is if the game allows me some consistent system of player choice to alter the narrative.
This is pretty much it. On the other hand, I consider character progression only as a game mechanic that is used in RPGs. It is the 'role playing' elements on the story that makes it a true rpg for me. Otherwise assassin's creed or new tomb raiders should be called rpgs as well and they are not.
 
Reactive narrative elements
Player choice in progression methods and order
Character customization

So not most JRPGs. Stats don't mean "Role Playing" to me.
 
Stats and the ability to customise a character that could be unique enough to another players character. That's why I consider darks souls, witcher 3 and kingdom hearts all rpg because I could adopt a playstyle considerably different to another. With zelda, there's little variation between character builds as there are fixed times and no stats distribution involved.
 
I find fighting/arguing over tiny little details to remove a game from a certain "genre" ridiculous.

this isn't an issue when genres are recognized as a tool for discussing similar games and not as an inherent qualitative judgment of a game
 
For a "RPG"?

1. Character stats have the ability to effect how quests, dialog, and the narrative unfold.

2. Choice and consequence that has actual... consequence.

These two must be deeply woven into the game design. One or two minor branches throughout the entire game don't count. Fallout: New Vegas has thousands of these instances. KOTOR, Pillars of Eternity, and Divinity OS are other good examples. Morrowind and Deus Ex are there too, if barely.

I lump games that partially meet that criteria as "action-RPGs" - Witcher 3, Skyrim, Soulsborne, Mass Effect, and (I assume, since I've not played it) Horizon.

Quests, loot, crafting, armor slots, and the open world have nothing to do with a game's RPG credentials, though they are often there. I'd even argue a RPG without a leveling system could be made.
 
For a "RPG"?

1. Character stats have the ability to effect how quests, dialog, and the narrative unfold.

2. Choice and consequence that has actual... consequence.

These two must be deeply woven into the game design. One or two minor branches throughout the entire game don't count. Fallout: New Vegas has thousands of these instances. KOTOR, Pillars of Eternity, and Divinity OS are other good examples. Morrowind and Deus Ex are there too, if barely.

I lump games that partially meet that criteria as "action-RPGs" - Witcher 3, Skyrim, Soulsborne, Mass Effect, and (I assume, since I've not played it) Horizon.

Quests, loot, crafting, armor slots, and the open world have nothing to do with a game's RPG credentials, though they are often there. I'd even argue a RPG without a leveling system could be made.

I find it to be somewhat ironic that so many people claim that dialogue choices are the be-all and end-all of an RPG, especially when D&D has direct origins in wargaming, the whole acting element came later IIRC.
 
XP is the core of the RPG. It doesn't necessarily need to be called experience, but it does need to be progression awarded through normal play, and not at set intervals.

So, Souls has RPG elements, even though it has 'souls' or 'blood' and it's basically treated as currency instead of XP because it progresses your character, while Zelda is not an RPG because hearts/items are put down in particular places and once you have them they're gone. When rupees can be used for substantial upgrades, it's, again, only one and then it's gone.

The most egregious example to me of barely-but-still-RPG is ZOE 1, where you were awarded huge amounts of XP that awarded levels that did virtually nothing, and you could hit cap in a handful of hours, well before the actual endgame.
 
I find it to be somewhat ironic that so many people claim that dialogue choices are the be-all and end-all of an RPG, especially when D&D has direct origins in wargaming, the whole acting element came later IIRC.

Chainmail's origin was wargaming. Dungeons and Dragons was an addition to Chainmail that added in the role playing and adventure as we know them. Also that post you quoted didnt specify dialogue choice as the only choice.
 
Most games are interdisciplinary these days, with RPGs being the most approrpiated genre out there. I honestly don't care what constitutes an RPG at this point because it's just arbitrary.. Any game has upgrades or level ups of some sort.
 
Stats
Experience
Quests
Non real time combat
Story Driven


So I don't consider dark souls an RPG

This for the most part, although non real time combat is a bit weird. If it has real time combat, I'd say it's an ARPG (think Diablo).

I don't think Zelda, for example, is an RPG or an ARPG because it doesn't have stats or experience. I would classify it as an Action Adventure game.
 
Stats, experience points and a level up system

As for Zelda...
Zelda 2 is an Action RPG, every other Zelda is an Action Adventure. Zelda 2 is great and Nintendo should do another Action RPG Zelda.
 
Most games today in any genre do have some sort of RPG element in them and that is why the term RPG has become a bit vague. ARPG, SRPG, JRPG, MMORPG are all subgenres. Trying identify which games fall in to the RPG genre has more to do with personal views and how the company chooses to market the game.
 
The thing is that "role playing game" was never meant to be a literal descriptor of the game. If you want to be broad enough, every game is an RPG because you're playing a role in just about every game. RPG is a direct reference to pen and paper games that preceded them. Dungeons & Dragons is a game centered around stats. You get character stats, equipment with stats, and stat increases at level up. Battle and general actions are designed around mathematical equations regarding those stats. The game plays out in some sort of campaign, a series of quests, where you interact with different non-player characters to progress in a story. That is what an RPG video game is too.

Zelda and Assassin's Creed are not RPGs, even if they have some RPG elements.
 
i don't get that bothered by it because honestly life is short who cares about semantics

if you wanna try and tell me that the crew is more of an rpg than kotor then idc i believe you
 
One thing I frequently do when running real pencil-and-paper RPGs is conceal the stats. They're still there, behind the scenes, but the players don't get to see them. Does that, for the people saying stats have to be front and center, make those things not RPGs? And if it doesn't (and it doesn't), why is the same not true for videogames that do the same thing?
 
There is no line. To try and draw one at this stage is futile.

Things are a lot more fuzzy, blended and diverse. You can talk about RPG elements, you can talk about the RPG genre and sub-genres in general, but I don't think you can clearly define it enough so a line can be drawn any more. I think that's a good thing. It's indicative of the variety and diversity we can enjoy in gaming today.
 
One thing I frequently do when running real pencil-and-paper RPGs is conceal the stats. They're still there, behind the scenes, but the players don't get to see them. Does that, for the people saying stats have to be front and center, make those things not RPGs? And if it doesn't (and it doesn't), why is the same not true for videogames that do the same thing?

I'd say thats a system that is not designed for the players to directly have an effect on stats. In RPG's stats become part of the game and knowledge of that system and improving your characters is typically part of the draw of the game.

That said I do think statless games can be RPG's but that when they start to be on the fringe of what people consider a RPG like Batman and Zelda.
 
Any game that makes you play a predefined character is not a traditional RPG to begin with.

It is an important distinction, and necessary, because absolutely everything can be considered a RPG if you make the argument of "playing a role", it's ambiguous, and unnecessary, we have had a definition of a RPG for decades now such as with tabletop RPGs, and TTRPGs is where video game RPGs originate from too.

At bare minimum you must be able to create and define over time a character, and that defined character has an impact on the world because the world is reactive to your character.

To give an example, one cannot call Fallout 4 an RPG, because it has a predefined character and history, and the world always has the same, static, reactivity to that predefined character's history (i.e your son, that you're a father/mother). There is absolutely nothing as a player you can do to change this, and this is why it's not a RPG.

And this similarity with Fallout 4 for example is a shared with so many so called RPGs, and an issue with JRPGs being called RPGs as well.

The extent of how well and in-depth you can roleplay is determined by the design of the game. An RPG is a sum of its parts from this point on, but a game cannot be an RPG by taking one or a few of these parts, like progression, but leaving out the important role/character definition by the player. It is a prerequisite.

Regarding JRPGs, Makoto Yoshizumi (Tales series) said this their JRPGs, which I think is true and it helps answer what a RPG is, a JRPG is, and a "RPG" is.
I don't think of the games we make as role-playing games (RPGs). You don't enjoy a role, but rather a character. In other words, the protagonist isn't a stand-in for yourself, but is a character with his or her own personality, so I think of the games as character-playing games.

This is why I don't think Mass Effect is a RPG, it is along the lines of Uncharted for me, character action games. Same goes for The Witcher. While Mass Effect and Witcher have more RPG elements than Horizon for example, they're still not RPGs to me, and why also some people think the first Mass Effect is the best, because later games in the series eroded more and more RPG elements, and people wanted Mass Effect to be a RPG.

People have a hard time understanding what a RPG is because it has been so muddied in games by misuse, there are games being made because they want to make RPGs and they are RPGs, such as Obsidian's games for example. The definition of RPG has been clear and been in use for a long time, it's not ambiguous so I don't know why people try and make it so.

This is also why there is the CRPG revival right now, because real RPGs are being made again because people want RPGs, they always wanted them. I think "CRPG" now should mean "Classic" RPG, not "Computer" RPG, because we're once again getting classic video game RPGs (which originated on computers, taken from table top RPGs)
 
campaign is longer than 20 hours and the combat is stats based.

Subsets will be jrpgs, which are largely party-based, wrpgs which are less so and can sometimes have divergent endings, and action rpgs, where combat is freeform
 
The thing is that "role playing game" was never meant to be a literal descriptor of the game. If you want to be broad enough, every game is an RPG because you're playing a role in just about every game. RPG is a direct reference to pen and paper games that preceded them. Dungeons & Dragons is a game centered around stats. You get character stats, equipment with stats, and stat increases at level up. Battle and general actions are designed around mathematical equations regarding those stats. The game plays out in some sort of campaign, a series of quests, where you interact with different non-player characters to progress in a story. That is what an RPG video game is too.

Zelda and Assassin's Creed are not RPGs, even if they have some RPG elements.
So right. For me the origin of the video game RPG genre was the need to turn p&p RPG mechanics into video games.
It also explains the difference between JRPG and WRPG a little bit, because those two "genres" evolved indepent from each other with the same origin (D&D) in mind.
 
Stop looking at games as bounded to a singular genre. "It's not an RPG because it is action focused" is stupid and counter-productive classification. Use genres to define features of the game instead of placing the game into a singular class.

I consider games like Assassins Creed to be RPGs, although it's more action focused, but claiming that it isn't RPG doesn't make sense.

One of most defining feature of RPGs is user-controlled character progression, which means you are in control how to build your character - whether it's through stats, appearance or moral choices you make.
 
Are genre classifications useful for anything?

If someone asked me to play a fighting game I'd say yes, if someone asked me to play a AAA western cinematic game I'd say no.

Classification helps you save time because people have tastes that gravitate to certain shared traits games have.
 
If stats, levels, exploration and equipment are the core of the game then it's a rpg, otherwise it's just a hybrid or a game with rpg elements.
 
Are genre classifications useful for anything?

To find games you might be interested in, if you feel you have a preference for certain types of games, that matches a definition you find useful.

Certain genre definitions are worthless, like adventure games. But RPG is one that works if it's used with some thought.
 
At this point I'm simply tired of this argument. You say it is an RPG and I'll say "Okay". Yeah, Tetris can be an RPG too I'm sure.

RPG by itself means very little to me. It is like having an ad that says "You may or may not like this!"
 
People have a hard time understanding what a RPG is because it has been so muddied in games by misuse, there are games being made because they want to make RPGs and they are RPGs, such as Obsidian's games for example. The definition of RPG has been clear and been in use for a long time, it's not ambiguous so I don't know why people try and make it so.

It's not really misuse, the meaning has simply evolved and changed in the context of games. You can't hold on to an older pure definition of a word if most others are using it in a different way.
 
An RPG should have at minimum:

-Some sort of character progression, typically via exp and levels that grant higher stats and/or new skills to use. Thus, the longer you play the stronger you get.

-Gear, though a focus on loot isn't necessarily required. There should still be different weapons, armor, etc that you can obtain throughout the world that enhance your abilities.

-Quests. In addition to the main story, RPGs should offer additional quests that the player may choose to do in order to get exp, gear, or money.

I don't agree with those saying narrative plays a role in defining an RPG, especially requiring story branches or dialogue choices. Those may be required to meet the strict definition of "role playing", but I don't see them as being vital to the RPG video game genre. I also like to differentiate action-RPGs as their own subgenre, thus I guess pure RPGs to me are turn based. RPG itself I like to consider a subgenre that can be added onto other genres, such as FPS-RPG for games such as Borderlands and Deus Ex.
 
I think turn-based combat is a dead giveaway. Also, if you can pause combat to decide your next move.

I'm thinking of a game I just played, Deus Ex: Human Revolution. It has character upgrade paths, missions, and a deep story, but it's undoubtedly a shooter.

I really think it comes down to turn-based combat, or perhaps combat you're not always in direct control of.

But where does that leave Mass Effect?

*sigh*
 
I view an RPG as a game in which the *emphasis* is on either (or both) narrative and dialogue or the incremental advancement of your character(s) via abilities and equipment, and in which both elements are present to some degree.

The reason I mention "emphasis" is that establishing the definition from the mere presence of those two elements would include a lot of games that aren't considered RPGs (e.g., Wolfenstein: TNO is a shooter, and its focus is shooting, but it has both dialogue and story and character advancement).

So I wouldn't consider the Deus Ex series (emphasis: emergent gameplay) as RPGs, at least not primarily. But I would consider Mass Effect 2 an RPG (emphasis: story and dialogue), even though its skill trees are less complex than those in any Deus Ex game.

This is all terribly arbitrary, though, as are all discussions about the definitions of words. Imagine taking a chair, and slowly widening it. At some point, it stops being a "chair" and becomes a "bench" or "loveseat" or "couch," but there's no obvious magic width at which the transition takes place. Words mean what their users think they mean, and some things will fit the words we have better than others.
 
I view an RPG as a game in which the *emphasis* is on either (or both) narrative and dialogue or the incremental advancement of your character(s) via abilities and equipment, and in which both elements are present to some degree.
I like this definition, because a lot of games with "RPG elements" are really shooters or something else but also happen to have a deep story or upgrade trees. I'm again thinking about Deus Ex: Human Revolution, which has both these things but the emphasis is really on shooting and stealth.

When these two things are what the game is primarily about, that's an RPG.
 
I really don't think of it much since "RPG elements" have crept into a lot of genres.

Things like character growth (levels or unlocking abilities), managing health, stamina, magic, or tech are enough for RPG-lite and that's where I mostly hang out. Traditional RPGs are often too long, too grindy, and too mechanical for me to get into.
 
I honestly stopped caring about these semantic classifications years ago. Debates are just endless as so many games straddle multiple genre lines these days.
 
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