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[walking fiend]

I have pretty much stopped expecting innovation to be largely driven by new hardware. One of the Guacamelee guys on the Bombcast last night put it well: most developers come up with a game first, then decide which platform is best for it. I've seen tons of innovative games in the last several years that were designed around mouse and keyboard, and that interface is decades old.

I'll give Nintendo credit -- they do the best job in the industry of taking advantage of unique hardware. But even they tend to start from the game idea; the whole asynchronous game play things has been floating around at Nintendo since long before the Wii U was a reality.

There's no doubt the Wii U will have some really creative software over its lifespan, but I believe it's going to be more due to how the playerbase responds than due to the hardware. If P-100 and ZombiU sell gangbusters out of the gate, we'll see more developers focusing on unique ideas. If AC3 and Darksiders 2 sell more, we'll see more of a trend toward traditional experiences with tacked-on Wii U controls.

I wonder how people tend to ignore this important factor.

One of the main reasons CoD sells so much more on the 360 compared to PS3, is that 360 created and catered its installed based by focusing on Halo and Gears of War more than any other game [the other main reason being Live]

 

[AgentP]

The Wii was obsolete SD hardware which was released after the 360. It relied purely on a gimmick for most of its sales.

The WiiU will be the most advanced console when released, it should secure multi-platform 3rd party games easy enough and hopefully be the best version. The tablet controller is a bit gimmicky, but not to the detriment to core games. The real question is how well will the WiiU do once new HD twins get released. Will 3rd party support dry up? Will the graphics quickly look dated? Can they get a 10-20m unit head start to help sway developers?

I know I won't buy one, I have no interest in Nintendo 1st party games, but I'm sure tons of people will flock to plumber and elf games like they do every gen.

 

[Twenty7KVN]

I find it funny that we are harping on strictly Nintendo about innovation. It's become really aggravating to read posts that attack one company, Nintendo; who seem to be taking on the most derision by individuals here. Granted they set themselves up for SOME bashing but not the amount that is currently being fired at them. And it you know what, it isn't Nintendo that should be disparaged; It should be the entire industry. Shame on gaf for just laser pointing to one company.

I walked the E3 show floor for hours. Looked at all the games that were there and I saw one single defining trend: <game name> followed by a number. Just more revisions on what came before with the exception of UBISoft who are trying new IPs. Lame Sequels with barely any changes from previous versions or "reboots" that contain no new mechanics or gameplay ideas, just a new varnish of normal mapping.

I walked out of the convention center, turned around and looked at the E3 logo and shook my head. E3: Innovation Unleashed it read in bold letters. How laughable a statement that was. If it were a product claim, we could all sue for consumer fraud. To Nintendo's credit there is a chance for innovation with the WiiU, but with the state of the industry, I seriously doubt anyone will bother attempting anything. Anyone outside of UBI, good for them, and I hope they reap the rewards.

We should yell at the industry and ask for more new IP and not more ways to nickle and dime us with DLC or worse, DLC that was actually part of the game. Let alone useless services that should be free in general.

I never walked through an E3 and felt that the industry has lost its way. So confused, so uninspired. So... Oh that game. AGAIN.

I agree with you for the most part,but you can't blame the companies for making sequels,they people are going to buy them.I would put most if not all the blame consumers.We are the ones who buy the games that they keep rehashing,it's all on us as consumers to show these companies that we want original content.

 

[EatinOlives]

What I love about the Wii U, is that its entire make-up sort of enforces Nintendo is now just running on gimmicks. Remember when motion control was the future, that replacing buttons with gestures and 1:1 actions was going to herald a new age of gaming? I do, and it was Sony that finally realised a lot of that with the Move in games like Sports Champions and Sorcery. Nintendo meanwhile has completely abandoned the wiimote as the de facto controller for Wii U, instead heading back to something far more traditional but with a DS screen.

And because its a DS screen, that means the Wii U Game Pad is already a "been there" done that device, other than the very limited appeal of holding a screen over your TV screen for the worst gimmickry I've seen yet.

As a device doing the same thing, the Vita to PS3 shenanigans are already stripping any "never seen this done before!" appeal, and that device has even more inputs than the Wii U, what with multi touch on the front AND back.

The Wii U is a very odd console indeed, its not really doing anything new for a completely different audience to be another Wii, and its not even another Gamecube because its not pushing truly great tech for its time.

The novelty of having a screen in your hands was already tried with the GBA-to-GameCube connectivity. Yes, it was neat, but that was a decade ago. The idea didn't catch on for a reason.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

asynchronic feature

asynchronous game play

asynchronic gameplay

SMH

Asymmetrical gameplay

Thank you.

 

[walking fiend]

I agree with you for the most part,but you can't blame the companies for making sequels,they people are going to buy them.I would put most if not all the blame consumers.We are the ones who buy the games that they keep rehashing,it's all on us as consumers to show these companies that we want original content.

Sometimes it is hard.

For example imagine CoD: It's mostly a community based multi-player game; say you have 5 online CoD buddies whom you regularly play with; 2 of them moving to the next one will be enough for you and the others to consider doing so too.

The novelty of having a screen in your hands was already tried with the GBA-to-GameCube connectivity. Yes, it was neat, but that was a decade ago. The idea didn't catch on for a reason.

eh, the technology and the situation is just a little bit different?

SMH



Thank you.

nice one

 

[rohlfinator]

SMH



Thank you.

Haha, goddammit. I know the term, but I keep seeing it typed wrong and must have absorbed it.

 

[Kai Dracon]

The novelty of having a screen in your hands was already tried with the GBA-to-GameCube connectivity. Yes, it was neat, but that was a decade ago. The idea didn't catch on for a reason.

Nobody will ever sit around the living room holding a screen in their hands while they also watch something on television

More seriously, I think the reason the GBA connectivity didn't catch on is because it asked people to go buy a GBA, something that didn't come with the system, and something that wasn't really originally designed to be the companion device in the first place.

 

[Twenty7KVN]

Sometimes it is hard.

For example imagine CoD: It's mostly a community based multi-player game; say you have 5 online CoD buddies whom you regularly play with; 2 of them moving to the next one will be enough for you and the others to consider doing so too.

Yea i know it's going to take a total mindset change from consumers or a industry crash.

 

[orioto]

SMH

Thank you.

Yeah sorry that makes sense anyway, asynchronism would be a rhythm thing i guess...

 

[The Boat]

The novelty of having a screen in your hands was already tried with the GBA-to-GameCube connectivity. Yes, it was neat, but that was a decade ago. The idea didn't catch on for a reason.

Indeed. Because you had to own 2 different consoles, hook them um up with a cable and only 3 or 4 games supported it. Somehow I don't think that's your point though.

 

[The Lamp]

The same as any other system if you were to buy 4 controllers for it? Key difference being for the PS3 and 360 the controllers you bought this gen will be useless. You seem to have a fundamental issue with local multiplayer in videogames in general. It's strange bringing that up when this has been the case since the 80s

Here's something that I'm wondering: are any of the announced titles for Wii U even supporting online multiplayer? Why haven't they gone into how their online multiplayer is going to work? It's 2012.

You see, we've evolved into a society where it's considered normal for a lonely gamer to play with their friends over a network, so that each person can remain in the comfort of their home and choose to play when it's convenient to their timing, not everyone else's. If their friends aren't home, they can play with strangers online. Part of the attraction of that is that it only requires one console, one controller to play with a large amount of possible players at once.

If the main focus of Wii U multiplayer games is going to be asymmetrical 5-person multiplayer...sure that's really interesting and innovative, but it's a completely different financial investment to consider 5 different controllers than to just have 1 and offer online multiplayer features.

Don't get me wrong, I love local multiplayer. I only own 2 controllers per current-gen system (on average) however. The only reason 4 of my friends can do things like play Smash Bros. or NSMB Wii together is because they bring their Wii remotes that came with their systems and because I have four GameCube controllers.

 

[Penguin]

Nobody will ever sit around the living room holding a screen in their hands while they also watch something on television

More seriously, I think the reason the GBA connectivity didn't catch on is because it asked people to go buy a GBA, something that didn't come with the system, and something that wasn't really originally designed to be the companion device in the first place.

Same reason why PSP/PS3 and I assume PSV/PS3/PS4 connectivity will never catch on.

 

[cametall]

What sold me on the Wii (bought it before 360 or PS3) was the game play video of Link fishing in TP. It was a mix of software and what you could appear to do with the controller at the time that sold me on the Wii.

Madden 2007 was the only game I got for the Wii where I thought, "wow, the controller is actually used pretty well." Pitiful I know. Not that I had issues with other motion control games, but Madden's use just felt better to me.

None of the Wii U games have impressed me like that Link fishing video I saw before the Wii's release. I'm going into the Wii U hoping for experiences like I have had on the 360 and PS3 that are hopefully enhanced and not hindered by the Wii U controller. But the controller is not what is selling me on this console.

 

[JB1981]

I enjoyed reading your post and I think you are on the money when you say innovation isn't about the input device, but about the games themselves.

 

[walking fiend]

Yea i know it's going to take a total mindset change from consumers or a industry crash.

I think it just requires competitive competition;

say EA and their strategy with BF and MoH;

Activision's greed is only one side of the problem.
I haven't played CoD online for less that 5 hours; I am total noobie; now they keep making a new one annually, how can I catch up with the pace?


However, of course to some people the changes of CoD may even look slow;
I used to play DotA and WC3 for a decade, so I understand how they feel; every patch of WC3 or new version of DotA equaled to hours of further gameplay

 

[Joeshabadoo]

A new Pokemon Snap game. That's all anyone here's gonna need. Console justified

*drops mic*

 

[EatinOlives]

Indeed. Because you had to own 2 different consoles, hook them um up with a cable and only 3 or 4 games supported it. Somehow I don't think that's your point though.

Also because it didn't provide a significantly new experience to justify having developers add features for it. Many games with GBA-to-GC features basically used it to "unlock content" (read: buy the GBA version) or used it for some really superficial reason. Somehow I'm sure you knew that was my point, though.

"Asymmetrical multiplayer" was a buzzword repeated at the same time as well. I heard it for Zelda: Wind Waker and Pac-Man Vs., for instance. Nintendo's retreading this entire idea.

 

[Margalis]

In terms of hardware there was absolutely zero innovation with the 360 or the PS3 - exact same control schemes and the hardware had no new features of note beyond just greater power. It's pretty rare for hardware to be innovative. Outside of some controller advancements like the N64 controller it's hard to think of any hardware that innovated in a real way.

The games Nintendo had on display were at least as innovative as anything else at E3 - which isn't saying much given that most games were sequels or were a very obvious combination of Uncharted and Batman.

Watching people play Mario you had one guy controlling the dude on-screen and another guy with the tablet placing bricks and such. Maybe that's not "OH MY GOD THE MOST INNOVATIVE THING EVER" but it's something we've never seen before. (At least to some degree. )

 

[Neo C.]

What's the last time they focused on a game at E3 ? No they focused on casual gaming, wii music, wii sport, and that's why they focused on Nintendo Land. It's pretty hypocritical to even argue that this game isn't the whole illustration of the philosophy behind the WiiU... Iwata will certainly tells you it is in Iwata Asks.

And yes again, my theory, that's mine, don't be hurted by the fact that i'm exposing it in a videogame board, is that Nintendo is interested in that sort of things, and they're pretty bored with conventional videogames. At least a part of the big heads there are, beginning with Shigeru Miyamoto.

Actually no, Miyamoto has stated in interviews that he can be very conservative in gameplay or gameplay input. Nintendo is smarter than some third parties (and gamers) and doesn't feel the need to include innovative input in every game, lots of Nintendo games are played with very little or no usage of the newer inputs (waggle, touchscreen, pointer). I don't even need to list these games.

Yeah, I get that some gamers love to point on the few casual games and completely discount the traditional games which Nintendo is still making in masses.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

"Asymmetrical multiplayer" was a buzzword repeated at the same time as well. I heard it for Zelda: Wind Waker

Nobody anywhere ever described Wind Waker as asymmetric multiplayer.

They didn't even describe 4 swords that way, because it wasn't.

 

[KevinCow]

I'll honestly be happy with maps, inventory management, and menu navigation in most games. I don't need GAME CHANGING INNOVATION in everything. I appreciate minor conveniences.

On screen all the time. I don't even have to look down at my hands. Maps are not a compelling feature.

Mini-maps are fucking terrible. They're tiny and useless, and they're constantly distracting.

A map on the Wiipad screen means a bigger map, so I can see further than ten feet around me, and it's not constantly distracting me out of the corner of my eye, so I'm not playing 90% of the game staring at a tiny circle in the corner of the screen.

It also potentially means things like quick and easy waypoint and marker placement. I want to go over here, I don't need to pause the game and drag a reticule that way. I just tap the screen.

 

[orioto]

Actually no, Miyamoto has stated in interviews that he can be very conservative in gameplay or gameplay input. Nintendo is smarter than some third parties (and gamers) and doesn't feel the need to include innovative input in every game, lots of Nintendo games are played with very little or no usage of the newer inputs (waggle, touchscreen, pointer). I don't even need to list these games.

Yeah, I get that some gamers love to point on the few casual games and completely discount the traditional games which Nintendo is still making in masses.

I've already had that discussion but the traditional games they make always seem like some kind of obligation, when they seems so excited about the rest. Maybe i'm seeing things reversed ...

 

[The Boat]

Also because it didn't provide a significantly new experience to justify having developers add features for it. Many games with GBA-to-GC features basically used it to "unlock content" (read: buy the GBA version) or used it for some really superficial reason. Somehow I'm sure you knew that was my point, though.

"Asymmetrical multiplayer" was a buzzword repeated at the same time as well. I heard it for Zelda: Wind Waker and Pac-Man Vs., for instance. Nintendo's retreading this entire idea.

I don't recall them ever saying that, but it's possible. What matters is that it was a promising idea and it never took off, now it has a better chance of doing so.

 

[Neo C.]

I've already had that discussion but the traditional games they make always seem like some kind of obligation, when they seems so excited about the rest. Maybe i'm seeing things reversed ...

If the traditional games are dull, then you can see them as obligation. But the high quality of the games and the passionate directors of them suggest otherwise.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

It also potentially means things like quick and easy waypoint and marker placement. I want to go over here, I don't need to pause the game and drag a reticule that way. I just tap the screen.

Assuming the WiiU gets a GTA, the controller will make a really great fake GPS system.

 

[lefantome]

damn it, I agree with Molyneux:

http://www.vg247.com/2012/06/07/quick-quotes-peter-molyneux-not-really-decided-about-wii-u/

 

[Karsticles]

damn it, I agree with Molyneux:

http://www.vg247.com/2012/06/07/quick-quotes-peter-molyneux-not-really-decided-about-wii-u/

Yeah, and it's sooo confusing that my 3DS has two screens. Which one do I look at while jumping? The one with my inventory, or the one with my character going between platforms? This is is so confusing, Nintendo!

 

[Cjdamon042]

I think there's plenty of innovation there especially in regards to asymmetric gameplay. It's just up to developers to tap into that innovation, like always.

Something like this hasn't been done before. You can have co-op or competitive gameplay but using completely different interfaces and that can open all sorts of unexplored ways to play games.

As an example, say you had a spy game or something. The main player controls a character on the TV using a Wiimote + Nunchuk. He has no map available and limited forms of hacking into new areas or computers. However he has an informative back at HQ or somewhere that he can communicate with. This informative is the second player using the WiiU GamePad. The informative has access to blueprints for the building the player is currently in and uses this to guide the player through the level. When needed, the informative can also use advanced hacking tools to access new areas for the main player. One section could find the main player in a room with enemies attempting to surround him. He's trapped and the informative is hacking away at a door or something to let the main player escape, whilst at the same time giving him hints of incoming enemies and best places to find cover using the blueprints.

Something like that has never really been possible before, so it's why I'm excited for the console. I just hope devs put it to good use.

 

[marc^o^]

A good take on local co-op: http://venturebeat.com/2012/06/07/the-wii-us-asymmetrical-multiplayer-isnt-just-for-your-girlfriend/

 

[fse]

Geoff was spot on on the live bombcast.

 

[donny2112]

I was surprised that they didn't use the Batman one as the detective mode vision (hold the controller up the screen etc.)

http://e3.nintendo.com/videos/#/Developer-Interview-Batman-Arkham-City

They show that functionality at the 1 minute mark.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Yeah, and it's sooo confusing that my 3DS has two screens. Which one do I look at while jumping? The one with my inventory, or the one with my character going between platforms? This is is so confusing, Nintendo!

lol I love it. Dual screen gameplay is new again

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I've got to wonder how the people who have difficulty in figuring out which screen to look at manage to get through life.

 

[EatinOlives]

Nobody anywhere ever described Wind Waker as asymmetric multiplayer.

They didn't even describe 4 swords that way, because it wasn't.

Did you PLAY the multiplayer in Wind Waker? It's the very definition of asymmetrical.

I never mentioned 4 swords. I don't know why you're bringing it up.

 

[Vinci]

The controller has potential. Whether games are released which take creative use of it? That remains to be seen. ZombiU is at least decently interesting. In fact, I sort of respect that they took everyone's bitching about '[having] to look away from the TV screen to look down at the controller - how stupid!' comments and gave it some meaningful consequence.

 

[alazz]

Did you PLAY the multiplayer in Wind Waker? It's the very definition of asymmetrical.

I never mentioned 4 swords. I don't know why you're bringing it up.

well, did you? The game is single-player. Do you mean Phantom Hour Glass or Spirit Tracks? I think those are multiplayer.

Yeah, and it's sooo confusing that my 3DS has two screens. Which one do I look at while jumping? The one with my inventory, or the one with my character going between platforms? This is is so confusing, Nintendo!

lol this is good.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Did you PLAY the multiplayer in Wind Waker? It's the very definition of asymmetrical.

No, can't say as I did.

I didn't play the multiplayer in Metroid Prime much, either.


...are you... are you talking about Tetras Trackers or whatever it was called?

 

[one_kill]

Nintendo talked about it a whole heap in their conference: Asymmetric gaming.

The creation of an outsider/manipulator during gameplay among "normal" others.

 

[DGRE]

I certainly saw more gameplay innovation in P-100, ZombiU, and Rayman Legends than I did in The Last of Us and Halo 4.

This.

If you don't think those games are innovative, please tell me what innovations you've recently seen in games that have really drawn your attention.

 

[EatinOlives]

No, can't say as I did.

I didn't play the multiplayer in Metroid Prime much, either.


...are you... are you talking about Tetras Trackers or whatever it was called?

No, no, I'm talking about Wind Waker proper.

Hooking up a GBA to the GC while using a specific item in Wind Waker gave a second player a 2D map view of the entire area. They got access to several items like spawing (friendly) bombs to kill enemies for a price (10 rupees per bomb or something similar), a shield to protect Link, as well as a flat cursor for aiming with the GBA D-pad that appeared on both the GBA screen and the in-game view. The GBA player could also help pinpoint secrets with markers that the first player can't see.

 

[rpmurphy]

Regardless of the poor showing at E3, I'm still very excited about this console. The focus on asymmetric multiplayer design is something that has not been very explored yet, and the fact that the controller will help drive that gets a hearty welcome from me. If there's something that Nintendo does well, it's exploring new game design paradigms and reimagining the architecture of game experiences from the view of hardware and software, something that I think is becoming a lost art in the big industry since the demise of arcades. I hope that there is a big push towards unique hardware next generation as opposed to a homogenization.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

My only problem is these same "lack of innovation" complaints seem to only ever be pointed at Nintendo.

Do I need to post every picture ever created about Sony copying Nintendo?
Sony gets shat on by Nintendo fans every day for lack of their own innovative ideas.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

it doesnt have to be in realtime, but it saves time if the map is available without having to press a button more than once

Most maps in games are only one button press, usually select. Or if not select then a dpad arrow. Not 2+ button presses.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Most maps in games are only one button press, usually select. Or if not select then a dpad arrow. Not 2+ button presses.

Is hitting a button, pausing the game, looking at a map, hitting a button again and returning to the game more or less immersive than Wii U's alternative?

 

[BGBW]

It takes the concept of duel screen gaming but shows what can be done if the screens are not fixed together.
That's the innovation. Taking a pre existing idea and giving it a new spin. I honestly hope OP isn't confusing it with invention which is the creation of something completely new.

The end.

 

[vareon]

The Gamepad itself leaves many opportunity for smart developers to have an innovative gameplay using it. We'll see it soon enough.

 

[Refreshment.01]

The novelty of having a screen in your hands was already tried with the GBA-to-GameCube connectivity. Yes, it was neat, but that was a decade ago. The idea didn't catch on for a reason.

Not the same EatinOlives, just because of the fact that the multi screen set up exist sby default in the WiiU. However, i agree in that the concept is not new and some applications had been explored by Nintendo years ago.

The Gamepad itself leaves many opportunity for smart developers to have an innovative gameplay using it. We'll see it soon enough.

But so far is not the case. Uses so far have ranged from "neat" or "convenient". Not something that fundamentally changes gameplay in ways that we haven't seen before.

I do think there are potential for innovative uses but some developers either don't have time, creativity or play simply don't want or consider it worthwhile to do so.

It takes the concept of duel screen gaming but shows what can be done if the screens are not fixed together.
That's the innovation. Taking a pre existing idea and giving it a new spin. I honestly hope OP isn't confusing it with invention which is the creation of something completely new.

The end.

Ok... but screens not being fixed is a featured born by necessity not as a freely adopted creative decision. It is a consequence of adapting the DS concept to a home console centered on TV use. So he is not wrong either when he sais is the DS for home use.

 

[Chuckpebble]

It also potentially means things like quick and easy waypoint and marker placement. I want to go over here, I don't need to pause the game and drag a reticule that way. I just tap the screen.

Oh shit, I want a game where when you tap the map on the pad, in the game world on the TV a humongous photo realistic hand comes down from the heavens and touches its index finger to that location so you can turn and head in that direction. Or, I guess it could also be a boring column of light, like in Skyward Sword.

Alright, back to my original thought. I want a game world where its like a miniature environment in the pad, and you have to treat it delicately. If you swipe your finger across the landscape, you have the potential to level terrain and decimate structure.