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[manueldelalas]

I would like them to take an entire generation off from making RPGs so they can rethink their approach. East and West.

Since that won't happen, scale these RPGs back a bit so they can concentrate on the important things in the genre without fretting over if you're world is big enough for 60 hours or whatever. Scrap the filling pretty much. Oh, and for JRPG...can we have main characters older than 16-20? Please? The age of game buyers have shifted, why not shift a bit with it?

*Looks at the people buying the big RPGs*

Why would you want RPGs with 12 years old characters?

 

[segarr]

I'd like games like Fallout 3 and Mass Effect to be scaled back a bit. Focus on smaller, more detailed worlds, with much more intricate stories. For instance, in Mass Effect, you get to visit like, 4 or 5 main planets, and dozens of side planets, all of them are open ended to an extent, but you never really get a sense that you are actually somewhere with a large community, you're not in living breathing cities, you're just sorta trapped in these small sections of places, and half of the buildings and such that you see, you never get to enter, let alone interact with. Not only are the sections small, but 90 percent of the NPC's are not used for interaction, and are really just there to give the appearance of a large populace. Rather then spreading out all of their idea's, and manpower, over the course of a bunch of different planets, I would have loved to have played a game that took place entirely in the Citadel, not just "Lower Wards" and "Upper Wards" though...why not just have a game where the entire story takes place in a space station, large enough so that you feel you have freedom of movement, but small enough so that the level of detail is not lost?

Bethesda builds these gigantic worlds, and I love their games, but everything in their worlds is generic and procedurally spawned.

I want a game that takes place entirely in one city block, where you can enter every building, talk to every character, and where everything doesn't feel as though the developers simply decided to move on to another section of the game.

Edit : I LOVE dialogue and being able to have conversations with NPC's in games, but the dialogue tree stuff needs to die. Theres gotta be a better way, hell, even more variety in how one picks the dialogue would be a good start. Picking facial expressions, emotions, looking at certain objects, hell, using the stick/waggle to wave your head up and down, anything...just please stop giving me long list of dialogue options, and/or dialogue wheels where your response is based on simple ideas about "good" and "evil".

 

[pancakesandsex]

The Witcher, Mass Effect and Fallout are all signs that RPGs are moving in the right direction, and that JRPG's are falling behind massivly.



Seems you only play JRPG's.

Your mentality sickens me. It's not a matter of winning or losing, it's not a race. There is no "right" direction. You sound like a whining child who doesn't understand there are people who do not share your preferences.

There is not a singular destination for the genre as a whole. You can't "fall behind" when you aren't going to the same place.

 

[Llyranor]

Especially if by right direction, you mean downhill when it comes to WRPGS ^__^

 

[Y2Kev]

Your mentality sickens me. It's not a matter of winning or losing, it's not a race. There is no "right" direction. You sound like a whining child who doesn't understand there are people who do not share your preferences.

There is not a singular destination for the genre as a whole. You can't "fall behind" when you aren't going to the same place.

I agree with this. Convergence = bad.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Are most rpgs even able to be classified as such? There are very few that would classify as actual roleplaying in my mind. That is actually taking the role of a character and deciding his/her actions to make a mark on the story.

Most I would classify as strategic action games.

 

[jeremy1456]

Are most rpgs even able to be classified as such? There are very few that would classify as actual roleplaying in my mind. That is actually taking the role of a character and deciding his/her actions to make a mark on the story.

Most I would classify as strategic action games.

:lol

Not this again.

 

[dark steve]

Especially if by right direction, you mean downhill when it comes to WRPGS ^__^

wait

how have JRPGs been even slightly progressive lately

 

[RevenantKioku]

Are most rpgs even able to be classified as such? There are very few that would classify as actual roleplaying in my mind. That is actually taking the role of a character and deciding his/her actions to make a mark on the story.

Most I would classify as strategic action games.

Whether or not the name is appropriate or not isn't really a needed point of discussion anymore. The genre got named, we understand what is meant by someone saying a game is of a certain type of genre. Cute highschool-esque commentary isn't necessary.

 

[pgtl_10]

I want a RPG made by Suda because he will create an original storyline.

 

[jeremy1456]

wait

how have JRPGs been even slightly progressive lately

Why would they have to be? Did you read/understand what he said?

 

[Future PhaZe]

Whether or not the name is appropriate or not isn't really a needed point of discussion anymore. The genre got named, we understand what is meant by someone saying a game is of a certain type of genre. Cute highschool-esque commentary isn't necessary.

I think its relevant simply because if your going to say where RPG's should be going...well how about some fucking roleplaying? Honestly.

 

[jeremy1456]

I think its relevant simply because if your going to say where RPG's should be going...well how about some fucking roleplaying? Honestly.

That's what you do in nearly every single game.

The whole 'role-playing' argument is extremely tired, let's move on.

 

[Future PhaZe]

That's what you do in nearly every single game.

The argument is tired, let's move on.

You know what I mean. I want to be able to directly effect the story through my own choices.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on J-RPG's or some rpgs in general. I'm honestly saying I want more of these roleplaying choices in my rpgs.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Okay, that's something you'd like to see. That's great. Some games offer more of that than others. Not as if it doesn't exist at all.
Some people like big open worlds. I find that boring as piss. Dunno why some want to eradicate something because they don't like it.

 

[NeoZylom]

I want more A-RPG and less turn by turn gameplay

 

[RevenantKioku]

Have you been playing attention at all? The turn based are much less available these days. Makes me very sad. Last Remnant is quite a blessing though. God, turn based is so awesome.

I was playing TLR when some friends showed up to get dinner and one asked how I can stand playing turn-based games where "You don't do anything!" Before I could answer, another friend of mine said something that I never thought of but really made sense. "It's like coaching a game."
I'm not a sports person so I never thought in terms like that, but it makes total sense. And it's that aspect that I really enjoy.

 

[pancakesandsex]

Have you been playing attention at all? The turn based are much less available these days. Makes me very sad. Last Remnant is quite a blessing though. God, turn based is so awesome.

I was playing TLR when some friends showed up to get dinner and one asked how I can stand playing turn-based games where "You don't do anything!" Before I could answer, another friend of mine said something that I never thought of but really made sense. "It's like coaching a game."
I'm not a sports person so I never thought in terms like that, but it makes total sense. And it's that aspect that I really enjoy.

That's a really good analogy.

 

[GhaleonQ]

Honestly, I'm pretty much content with the established sorts of gameplay that Japanese RPG's have. That's not to say that I don't love new things, just that I'm not sufficiently sick of the various offerings (and I play a lot of the genre's games).

I don't need a more mature plot (that is, story point-to-story point), even. I just want more maturely told stories and stories with more mature themes. As an example, Final Fantasy IX has pretty traditional gameplay and plot points, but the "I Want To Be Your Canary" opening and closing was one of the few times that I felt proud of video game storytelling, and the 8-way examination of existentialism (ranging from shallow to medium depth) was fantastic. The game's one of my favorites.

 

[Blackjack]

You know what I mean. I want to be able to directly effect the story through my own choices.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on J-RPG's or some rpgs in general. I'm honestly saying I want more of these roleplaying choices in my rpgs.

Okay, but there's really no game ever that allows you every possible choice. Does that mean there's no such thing as an RPG?

 

[vanguardian1]

I'd like big, explorable worlds that mostly haven't been discovered yet like Skies of Arcadia.

 

[tahrikmili]

Wow, I just wrote a huge rant and ended up deleting it. Here's what I want, to make it short.

Story: I don't want your shitty stories full of fantasy stereotypes. Sit down and write interesting stories. I don't want to save the world from a boring villain for the 101st time, I did it 100 times when I was a kid. I want the next Planescape that turns the fantasy genre over its head and breaks the tired and old Tolkienesque mold, or the next Baldur's Gate that can actually make it interesting. I want the next Fallout that will present me with a brand new world of wonder and immersion. I want the next Pools of Darkness that's just wacky out of this world in an incredibly cool way (Battling my way on and inside the body of a dead god floating in the Astral Plane and resting in his belly button? Sign me the fuck up!). Mass Effect was a definitely step in the right direction but it faied in..

Gameplay: I'm sick of watered down action/rpg hybrids. I have many problems with modern RPG gameplays. 1. I want to do my exploration in first person view. I've been in love with this view since Ultima Underworld. I just don't want to see my character's ass or the top of his head anymore, I want to see the world through his eyes. Oblivion got this part right but faied in: 2. I don't want action pseudo-rpg combat, If you'll make combat real-time, at least make it feel like an RPG. To this day I still haven't gotten the same amount of satisfaction I got out of Eye of the Beholder I & II's combat from another game. Fallout 3 is the one that got it almost perfectly right again. But there's an even better alternative yet: 3. Make the combat turn based. Gold box SSI RPGs did this with tactical battle-mat gameplay, Might & Magic did it with first personview, Fallout 3 did it with 3rd person view - it's possible, and it's immensely a) simple, b) fun, c) newbie friendly. 4) Grinding for levels must go. Random encounters must go. These are lazy and poor gameplay elements. Make every encounter memorable, make every encounter unique. Combat for the sake of combat makes for very little story and gets old very quick. Each combat encounter should advance the story in a way and I should not feel like I'm killing something to advance my character - metagame thinking that would break my immersion. Character immersion should happen as part of the plot progress a-la Planescape. It should not be the goal, it should be the effect. This is the #1 reason I HATE MMOs.

Graphics: 3D killed my RPG fun for a long time. I'm playing NWN2 now and while zoomed out it's as pretty as Baldur's Gate 2, areas where I have to zoom in make me want to pluck my eyes out. RPGs are all about immersion and things that look awfully poor kill it. Take Mass Effect for example - the game had an incredible plot and story, but the sterile, bland, repetitive environments killed the immersion and made it feel like a, well, game. Only lately have 3D RPG graphics been reaching the level necessery to make an RPG immersive again (Fallout 3, Fable 2 etc.). But for the last half a decade, it's been very painful.

Basically, this is it.. I don't know how much of this has already been said (haven't read the whole thread but plan to), but I think this is one of the best threads posted on GAF for a while.

 

[lastendconductor]

Have you been playing attention at all? The turn based are much less available these days. Makes me very sad. Last Remnant is quite a blessing though. God, turn based is so awesome.

I was playing TLR when some friends showed up to get dinner and one asked how I can stand playing turn-based games where "You don't do anything!" Before I could answer, another friend of mine said something that I never thought of but really made sense. "It's like coaching a game."
I'm not a sports person so I never thought in terms like that, but it makes total sense. And it's that aspect that I really enjoy.

I've always liked the Fire Emblem approach, where you are in the role of the strategist. Makes a lot more sense.

 

[immy]

rpgs need to be smaller
-smaller length
-smaller worlds
-smaller battle times

 

[Error]

lol, fucking yes.
Less 'Tales of' shit will make the world a better place.
basically, less of 'sticking to what's best' and more innovation

that's retarded, the tales series has its fans and it innovates in its own way. innovation is such a fluff term.

What IS innovation? Tales games innovate in their own way, it's not necessary for every game series to get a RE4 style facelift to survive or be fun.

I'm pretty sick of people throwing out the word 'innovation' like it's relevant. :/

 

[immy]

that's retarded, the tales series has its fans and it innovates in its own way. innovation is such a fluff term.

What IS innovation? Tales games innovate in their own way, it's not necessary for every game series to get a RE4 style facelift to survive or be fun.

I'm pretty sick of people throwing out the word 'innovation' like it's relevant. :/

well tales games could be made better by evolving and getting rid of there for two year old storylines

 

[Darkpen]

Maybe its because I don't have an RPG fatigue, but is it just me, or is this thread sort of unnecessary? There are already all sorts of RPGs, and they're all going in unique and compelling directions. Some of them are barely labeled "RPG."

The only fatigue I feel is when a company releases something that's clearly spun off of Tolkien lore, and I avoid those games for a reason. But if you look around, there are already all sorts of RPGs. The origin of the genre, and what it means for something to be an RPG, has become so vague, it seems that the only type of game that's actually called an RPG is when you have to deal with numbers and some sort of gradual increase in skill level.

I just finished Yakuza, and that was one of the most refreshing RPG experiences I've had all year, even though it wasn't the best game I played, let alone a traditional RPG. Next, I'm going to play Valkyria Chronicles, and I don't even know what to say about that.

I think that developers feel the fatigue as well, and are in fact constantly searching for new ways to explore and present the genre. With how far and wide the first person genre has gone (especially recently with Mirror's Edge), I think RPGs are progressing just as much.

well tales games could be made better by evolving and getting rid of there for two year old storylines

Tales of Phantasia innovated with its fighting game-style combat system, and a rather adult sense of humor in its writing. Clearly, the series hasn't moved all that much beyond taking a step forward, and then a step back.

Have you been playing attention at all? The turn based are much less available these days. Makes me very sad. Last Remnant is quite a blessing though. God, turn based is so awesome.

I was playing TLR when some friends showed up to get dinner and one asked how I can stand playing turn-based games where "You don't do anything!" Before I could answer, another friend of mine said something that I never thought of but really made sense. "It's like coaching a game."
I'm not a sports person so I never thought in terms like that, but it makes total sense. And it's that aspect that I really enjoy.

Wow, that's pretty clever. I like that.

I think that a good turn based RPG is enjoyable when its clear that you're not doing it to grind, in my opinion. I just finally got to actually trying to play the Eternal Sonata demo on PS3, as my first experience with the combat system was both frustrating and annoying, tempting me to delete it, but I didn't. After dying several times (again), I finally got to the end of the demo, during which I hit a really nice stride of understanding the game, and what it was trying to do. The strategy element was something I really wasn't expecting, and I found myself pleasantly surprised by it. I was fighting against it, and it fought me back, and hard. I just wish they made the gameplay more clear through tutorial battles, as opposed to having random NPCs tell you via text, which is such an outdated way of explaining anything in a videogame.

I guess Yakuza spoiled me, as far as that's concerned.

Regardless, its given me a renewed interest in turn-based RPGs, and how they've changed. And despite what some people say, after watching the gameplay videos of TLR, I'm definitely looking forward to the PS3 release for that.

 

[Rpgmonkey]

Tales of Phantasia innovated with its fighting game-style combat system, and a rather adult sense of humor in its writing. Clearly, the series hasn't moved all that much beyond taking a step forward, and then a step back.

Most of Phantasia's humor is the same stuff used in JRPGs before or after it...

And I think the series has been doing well at making the series even more of some kind of RPG/Fighter/Action Game hybrid, and I find it interesting to see a developer trying to use ideas used in fighters and apply them to an RPG system while adding some other little quirks, but that's just me.

I'd like big, explorable worlds that mostly haven't been discovered yet like Skies of Arcadia.

I'd like more of this. Kinda nice to have pretty much the whole world most undiscovered and have it slowly uncovered as you progress.

It was even cool to see people moving around between countries in SoA. A game that takes it a little further and does something with a trade system as you discover more places (and thus open up more trade routes) and some other stuff (you see more mixing of each country's people in various places) would be interesting too.

More turnbased games would be nice too. Seems the balance is shifting or something. :lol

More interesting and varied worlds in general would be cool too. I don't mind size, big or small, would just like more variety.

 

[RevenantKioku]

First person and behind the head need to be drop kicked for a change. Recently it has been too much. There is something more grand about adventuring in the top down model than any of these 3D ways.

 

[Darkpen]

First person and behind the head need to be drop kicked for a change. Recently it has been too much. There is something more grand about adventuring in the top down model than any of these 3D ways.

...I don't understand what you mean by that. The only reason why there are first person RPGs is because of PC control input, and the purpose of having realistic environments where there are items you can pick up from shelves and whatnot.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Yeah, and have in your inventory for no purpose other than to sell for 1 monetary unit.

I'm not sure what you don't understand. Top down view with a larger percentage of seeable area is better than not being able to see much of anything in first person and behind the shoulder 3rd person.

 

[Darkpen]

You know what I mean. I want to be able to directly effect the story through my own choices.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on J-RPG's or some rpgs in general. I'm honestly saying I want more of these roleplaying choices in my rpgs.

You know what? If there's one thing this thread has reminded me of, its Heavy Rain. Aren't adventure games technically RPGs? Alot of gaming shares common roots, and that's why people make distinctions between JRPGs, and WRPGs.

You have plenty of choices, just try looking outside of the main genre.

 

[antiloop]

rpgs need to be smaller
-smaller worlds

Yup. FFXII with a smaller world and more well thought out story/characters.

WRPG:s needs to be less shallow and more linear. Fallout 3 ugh, the world is so uninteresting and the AI breaks everything. The Witcher please.

 

[tahrikmili]

You know what? If there's one thing this thread has reminded me of, its Heavy Rain. Aren't adventure games technically RPGs? Alot of gaming shares common roots, and that's why people make distinctions between JRPGs, and WRPGs.

You have plenty of choices, just try looking outside of the main genre.

From a narrativist and immersionist POV RPGs are partly Adventure games.

From a gamist POV they are nothing alike.

But then, there are RPGs and there are RPGs.. Basically, there are RPG hits that I wouldn't even consider in the genre if you would ask me..

 

[RevenantKioku]

You know what? If there's one thing this thread has reminded me of, its Heavy Rain.

Oh god. I'm so sorry. And now I'm thinking of that too. Fuck.

 

[bengraven]

with JRPGs:
- Shorter, tighter main experiences (ala Chrono Trigger, The World Ends With You) with a solid endgame and New Game+ MANDATORY.
- I'd like more of them to be set in the real world/present time ala Persona 3, 4, TWEWY.
- Twists that actually shock and aren't tired genre cliches.
- Characters that have predetermined strengths and weaknesses as opposed to "create your own", because in this genre (or at least the way I play) they almost always end up looking the same :O
- Keep on going with the good localisation and VA.

with WRPGs:
- A return to Baldurs Gate levels of complexity and gameplay depth.
- Different motherfucking settings. Less dragons, less space marines. Yeah Bioware, I'm talking to you.
- Thick ass manuals. I don't care what it costs you or where you're going to fit them in.
- If you're going to have your game in a first person viewpoint then I don't want dice roll gameplay. e.g. If I'm shooting a minigun at someone I want them to act as if they're being hit by a minigun.
- What they promised was going to be the Mass Effect conversation system.
- Polish your games.

so in summary:
JRPGs = i want them to move forward to greatness
WRPGs = i want them to go back to greatness

I like you.

 

[Darkpen]

Yeah, and have in your inventory for no purpose other than to sell for 1 monetary unit.

I'm not sure what you don't understand. Top down view with a larger percentage of seeable area is better than not being able to see much of anything in first person and behind the shoulder 3rd person.

the only games I can think of by your camera description in particular, is both Fallout 3, and just about anything else out of Bethesda. Unless you're also including 3rd person 3D camera as an issue, I really can't think of any other RPG outside of Fallout 3 that had a specifically over-the-shoulder camera in an RPG :/

 

[RevenantKioku]

the only games I can think of by your camera description in particular, is both Fallout 3, and just about anything else out of Bethesda. Unless you're also including 3rd person 3D camera as an issue, I really can't think of any other RPG outside of Fallout 3 that had a specifically over-the-shoulder camera in an RPG :/

The Last Remenant, Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, Dragon Quest 8 immediately pop into mind, fuck pretty much any 3D RPG these days does this shit.
Feels so claustrophobic.

 

[Darkpen]

From a narrativist and immersionist POV RPGs are partly Adventure games.

From a gamist POV they are nothing alike.

But then, there are RPGs and there are RPGs.. Basically, there are RPG hits that I wouldn't even consider in the genre if you would ask me..

well, I always go back to viewing the D&D model as the purest definition of the RPG genre. I don't mean the incorporation of Tolkien lore, or d20: I mean the experience of having a character who's stats grow, as you're guided by the (preferably) charismatic Dungeon Master, as you, yourself, make choices that will direct your path, as well as your party's.

So as a gamer, I feel that the RPG genre is simply the bare bones of what makes up entire other genres, and we simply keep the name because there are few others that would enter the common vernacular.

 

[Hobbun]

...I don't understand what you mean by that. The only reason why there are first person RPGs is because of PC control input, and the purpose of having realistic environments where there are items you can pick up from shelves and whatnot.

I think what he is saying is he is a little frustrated that it seems like a lot of the RPGs are headed that way, in first person. From reading Rev's posts at least, it seems he is more of a fan of the traditional top down and turn-based RPG. And that is my preference as well.

First person are fine as long as you have one party member. But I have always like the multiple person parties. Which is why I also why I prefer turn-based because it is the only way to control multiple party members fully. Sort of like the example used earlier, like a coach. I've always thought of it being similar to a Lt. issuing orders for his squad. And no, I don't consider 'full control' in using scripts for A.I. "If-then" statements.

But like I said before, I don't see why we can't have the large varying types of RPGs, like that is available now. As long as the traditional turn-based doesn't wilter away into existence, then that is fine with me. It just unfortunately seems like that is what's happening.

 

[Darkpen]

The Last Remenant, Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, Dragon Quest 8 immediately pop into mind, fuck pretty much any 3D RPG these days does this shit.
Feels so claustrophobic.

...so you actually mean third person 3D, not over-the-shoulder. I assume you don't count preset cameras, though, right?

Maybe its because I've gotten accustomed to 3D cameras, but I don't find them claustrophobic. Limiting perhaps, maybe even narrowing, but not claustrophobic. Having a shitty camera that is actually limited by collision boxes, however, is just fucking retarded, and THAT can be claustrophobic, IMO.

I understand what you mean, but in my opinion, a top-down view is visually dull, and with how art direction takes such a precedence these days, any view where we can't directly see the character tends to make it difficult to care for the character. And on top of that, the irony of the top-down view is that you can't see the horizon, and that, in my opinion, is truly limiting.

 

[tahrikmili]

well, I always go back to viewing the D&D model as the purest definition of the RPG genre. I don't mean the incorporation of Tolkien lore, or d20: I mean the experience of having a character who's stats grow, as you're guided by the (preferably) charismatic Dungeon Master, as you, yourself, make choices that will direct your path, as well as your party's.

So as a gamer, I feel that the RPG genre is simply the bare bones of what makes up entire other genres, and we simply keep the name because there are few others that would enter the common vernacular.

Actually the basic premise of D&D as envisioned by Gygax had a very gamist approach - it was about killing things, taking their stuff and gaining experience. The core gameplay of D&D is about crawling around in dungeons and surviving one encounter after another (referred to as 'adventuring') - in that regard, the emphasis on combat and character advancement really sets RPGs apart from adventure games. Not only that, but D&D itself is clearly and definitely a Tolkienesque game; even the base classes in D&D1 more than illustrate this (Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, Fighter, Magic-User, Cleric, etc. - Yes, Halfling, Dwarf and Elf were classes that stereotyped to special kinds of thieves, fighters and wizards respectively).

Even in CRPGs this is the case, the first examples of CRPGs focused on a bunch of (in some cases random) corridors you could explore and kill things in, and advance your character (sometimes until you died, so your score was the level you reached before you died). Earliest examples of the best examples of narrativist CRPGs (i.e. Ultima I vs Ultima VII pt.2) demonstrate this evolution.

The idea of weaving a story about the gameplay developed after the game mechanics and you can clearly see that in the evolution of not only D&D (which haz arguably begun to re-emphasize the gamist approach with its use of miniatures and whatnot) but other P&P RPGs in general. Regardless, the idea of narrativism is now (IMO) an inseperable part of RPGs. So in this regard, adventure games share a common ground with RPGs - both often tell intriguing immersive stories.

So, to make a long story short, I disagree. The roleplaying aspect of RPGs as a narrativist tool definitely is common in RPGs but that is because RPGs have evolved towards adventure games and not vice versa. The core gameplay elements of the two genres are still are worlds apart.

 

[Woo-Fu]

ff12 without infinite License Points making all of your characters exactly the same.

 

[Cartman86]

As with any form of entertainment you need to either have something incredibly exciting in terms of story and narrative (twists and turns etc.) or interesting characters. To me the one I want to see most advance in gaming is characters being made more human. I want real characterization. I don't really care about being myself in a game. I'm fine with just being along for the ride, as long as I get to see interesting interactions. These are tough issues since after all you are playing a game, but I can't wait to see how they are addressed in the future. I think that is why every time a game like Heavy Rain is spoken about I get excited. As long as you try I am happy.

 

[Darkpen]

tahrikmili: I see. Personally, I always viewed the two as parts of a whole, especially with how my highschool DM was. Well, regardless, I think the genre's name alone is enough to spark questions of what an RPG even is. Its certainly not exclusive to dungeon crawling, though, with even that becoming a sub-genre.

and sorry I couldn't quote you because the PS3 has a limit on the number of characters you can use in the typing mode-thing

 

[diss]

...so you actually mean third person 3D, not over-the-shoulder. I assume you don't count preset cameras, though, right?

Maybe its because I've gotten accustomed to 3D cameras, but I don't find them claustrophobic. Limiting perhaps, maybe even narrowing, but not claustrophobic. Having a shitty camera that is actually limited by collision boxes, however, is just fucjing retarded, and THAT can be claustrophobic, IMO.

I understand what you mean, but in my opinion, a top-down view is visually dull, with how art direction takes such a precedence these days, any view where we can't directly see the character tends to make it difficult to care for the character. And on top of that, the irony of the top-down view is that you can't see the horizon, and that, in my opinion, is truly limiting.

I like top down view because it's less technically demanding. This equals more polish and they still look nice IMO. And I think you can make controls work on consoles if you design it correctly. That said I don't mind behind the shoulder, or first person RPGs if they're still enjoyable. I've played enough behind the shoulder games now that it doesn't feel claustrophobic to me.

And dice roll gameplay doesn't feel weird to me in top down. If it's in first person I very much like it when the bullets go where I want them to without relying on behind the scene dice rolls. It's a weird disconnect that goes against years of playing first person shooters. If it's isometric, I'll understand that I swung my sword and missed, even though the guy is right in front of me. Speaking of which, the first person shooter with RPG elements, ala Deus Ex, System Shock 2, BioShock is my favourite genre of all, and I'd like more of those please I feel like these are often the most difficult games to create, or at least I hope that's the reason because no one fucking makes them anymore.

I will always feel as if I'm connected to my character no matter the viewpoint if the roleplaying elements are tight and the story is compelling.

 

[RevenantKioku]

...so you actually mean third person 3D, not over-the-shoulder. I assume you don't count preset cameras, though, right?

Maybe its because I've gotten accustomed to 3D cameras, but I don't find them claustrophobic. Limiting perhaps, maybe even narrowing, but not claustrophobic. Having a shitty camera that is actually limited by collision boxes, however, is just fucjing retarded, and THAT can be claustrophobic, IMO.

I understand what you mean, but in my opinion, a top-down view is visually dull, with how art direction takes such a precedence these days, any view where we can't directly see the character tends to make it difficult to care for the character. And on top of that, the irony of the top-down view is that you can't see the horizon, and that, in my opinion, is truly limiting.

Good lord, please be joking. You're making me nauseous.

 

[Darkpen]

Good lord, please be joking. You're making me nauseous.

well its both the mmorpg loot mentality, along with the "I want to see what I'm relating myself with" Japanese mentality. There's nothing wrong with wanting eyecandy.

When it comes down to it, you're finding compromise between practicality, versus an attention grabbing instant reward. Its one thing when you're moving around on a grid, its another when you're replicating what is immediately recognisable. And with an already crowded market, I say developers simply need to rethink cameras.

 

[RevenantKioku]

There's actually quite a lot wrong with eyecandy.

 

[Darkpen]

There's actually quite a lot wrong with eyecandy.

then you're clearly a hardcore gamer who will remain in the minority of people for whom very few developers would dare target, in the mainstream market we game in. I hope for the best of luck, unless you don't mind finding joy only in the handheld or PC space.