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Which death impacted the music world more.. Kurt Cobain or Tupac Shakur?
- Thread starter Captain Zyrain
- Start date
Yeah, seriously. It blows my mind Americans here have such a hard time understanding how people who grew up abroad could have such different cultural points of reference (pop culture included) and worldviews. Had to google him back in 2011 when Obama mentioned him at the White House Correspondents' Dinner. By that time I had already been several times to the US for long stays, which is more than most people from where I come from can say.
In contrast, feels like I've always known Cobain. Anyone you ask, they'll know him. Tupac? Expect only the most knowledgeable people on the American musical landscape to know him,
polyh3dron
Banned
For someone who just spent a good deal of effort trying to combat ignorance, it's a shame you followed it with such an ignorant statement of your own.
Tupac is a nobody outside of the United States. If you were to ask a crowd of regular people here in The Netherlands about Tupac, the most you'd get is that he's 'some rapper who got killed'. On the other hand, everyone knows who Kurt Cobain is and how he died.
Yeah sure, if you'd ask music lovers about Tupac you'd probably get a more refined answer, but he's not nearly as famous as Kurt Cobain/Nirvana.
You seem to have the same issue. Tupac is very popular in Africa and the Middle East, for instance. NPR even did an article on his influence on the Arab Spring. They even made a film about Tupac in China.
Tupac is incredibly popular in Europe. Especially France, UK and Germany where there is a strong rap culture. Of course, whether less or more than Cobain, I don't know, but I don't know anyone personally who has never heard of Tupac.
DiscoJer
Member
On the one hand, Kurt Combain essentially killed rock music and it's still dead to this day. Oh sure, people still make it, but it's not the big commercial force or cultural thing it once was.
On the other, he probably couldn't have kept rock going.
Tupac was pretty damn important to rap, helping defining it for his time (changing it from almost comedy stuff like The Fat Boys to something serious). But he wasn't the only one that did so, and I think others have picked up the mantle, Kendrick Lamar. in particular.
There's no one like Kendrick Lamar in the rock scene. Nor is there a Kanye or a Jay Z in rock. At best there is Kid Rock, which is more country-rap than rock and pretty embarrassing all around.
On the other, he probably couldn't have kept rock going.
Tupac was pretty damn important to rap, helping defining it for his time (changing it from almost comedy stuff like The Fat Boys to something serious). But he wasn't the only one that did so, and I think others have picked up the mantle, Kendrick Lamar. in particular.
There's no one like Kendrick Lamar in the rock scene. Nor is there a Kanye or a Jay Z in rock. At best there is Kid Rock, which is more country-rap than rock and pretty embarrassing all around.
What a silly thing to say. Fits right into the thread, though.
For us Mexicans for sure. I still hear about her maybe once a week. Maybe different for others though considering I knew some of her family and she lived here in my area.
Bubba_Sparks
Member
Kind of a dumb thread op.
Bounceounce
Member
I don't believe you (just on the bolded though, everything else I agree with it at least can see).
17 Seconds
Banned
tupac actually had talent. by the time of cobain's death, nirvana had done their damage on rock music and ushered in the shit that came after it
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I remember about 10 years ago trying to rep Tupac to some friends from India. They'd never heard of him. For a lot of people internationally, rap started with Eminem
they knew of Dre and 50, but only thanks to Em.But I think the people trying to say Tupac is completely unknown internationally are like the same people who'd try to argue he's unknown in North America compared with Cobain. It's actually highly subjective related to your peer group.
If you resonate with a gangster, street mindset anywhere in the world, I'm sure you have heard of Tupac first. And if you're all about guitar-based genres (pssst White people in Europe), Cobain probably occupies more mindshare.
This is what I was thinking as well. I'd go as far to say that places like northern Europe hadn't really been exposed that much to the African-American culture aside from the Cosby show and Eddie Murphy in the early 90's aside from maybe the big cities. And I'm exaggerating of course as there were a lot of successful hip hop groups (N.W.A. etc.) that got through, but they were still a niche in terms of media exposure.
quickwhips
Member
Kurt dying gave us foo fighters. So it depends if that is a good thing or bad thing. PAC led to biggie dying also kinda.
Here in Finland I first heard about Tupac when he was referenced to in some comedy film, when I was already an adult. Most of my friends to this day haven't heard about an artist named Tupac. Everyone knows who Curt Kobain was though. Absolutely everyone (in here).
Grunge didn't make it out of the 90s.
Lord Thrappleper The 49th
Member
Never heard of either of them.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
This is like those threads where Americans assume that LeBron is more significant than Messi because reasons.
Yeah, I was talking about the general population. Most of my friends know Tupac of course, since we're pretty big into rap, but ask people on the streets and you'd probably get almost nothing. The American rappers people know of are Eminem, 50 Cent, Drake, Snoop Dogg and Kanye West (more for his media personality than his music though). The rest is simply not widely known in Dutch circles. It's all about the (absolutely awful) Dutch rappers.I remember about 10 years ago trying to rep Tupac to some friends from India. They'd never heard of him. For a lot of people internationally, rap started with Eminem
But I think the people trying to say Tupac is completely unknown internationally are like the same people who'd try to argue he's unknown in North America compared with Cobain. It's actually highly subjective related to your peer group.
If you resonate with a gangster, street mindset anywhere in the world, I'm sure you have heard of Tupac first. And if you're all about guitar-based genres (pssst White people in Europe), Cobain probably occupies more mindshare.
I'm not sure it has to do with race that much though, I think it's more that in comparison with other music genres, rap is more focused on themes that are more culturally exclusive than rock music. Tupac for instance talked a lot about growing up in America an inequality for black people, that kind of stuff just doesn't translate at all to most European cultures, so instead of sticking around those kind of songs kinda become a flash in the pan. According to Wikipedia, Tupac's stuff did really well in thev Dutch charts when they were released, but disappeared just as quickly afterwards.
On the other hand, really popular Dutch rappers who rap about domestic "issues" stay in the spotlight even if they don't really make a hit again. Everybody here remembers two hit wonders like "Lange Frans & Baas B." because one time they rapped about random acts of senseless violence in Amsterdam.
Are you actually serious? The so-called 'death of rock' is far more recent than Cobain's suicide. Hugely popular bands like Linkin Park, Muse, Foo Fighters, etc. all came after Nirvana.
How? Both of these people are Americans performing in American musical genres.
Revolutionary
Member
Pac is still alive so Cobain by default.
And Tupac is not? Lol
uncelestial
Member
It's pretty obviously Kurt. When Kurt died that was the end of earnest alternative music having the spotlight. After that it became very commoditized and cynical in the alternative space, then it faded out completely, replaced with pop.
Though Tupac's death was very tragic, the course of music wasn't significantly changed; rap had already begun shifting away from G-Funk/gangsta and rap has only grown in popularity since. And Tupac wasn't the spokesperson for that entire scene of West Coast rap, anyway. It definitely felt like the ex-members of NWA and the people connected to them we're running the show. In fact, Pac's biggest hit when he was alive was when he teamed up with Dre on a track (California Love).
Though Tupac's death was very tragic, the course of music wasn't significantly changed; rap had already begun shifting away from G-Funk/gangsta and rap has only grown in popularity since. And Tupac wasn't the spokesperson for that entire scene of West Coast rap, anyway. It definitely felt like the ex-members of NWA and the people connected to them we're running the show. In fact, Pac's biggest hit when he was alive was when he teamed up with Dre on a track (California Love).
BibiMaghoo
Member
A quick google tells me they both sold a strangely similar amount of records to date, 75 million a piece. I don't know if this is coincidence or that was why these two were picked, but it means we can't see who had the bigger audience over time. This may be wrong, but it does seem most of Tupac record sales were after he died, seven of his eleven platinum albums were released after he died.
I would say overall then it is Cobain, who had the greater influence whilst alive, but resonates today just as much in his death.
I would say overall then it is Cobain, who had the greater influence whilst alive, but resonates today just as much in his death.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Grunge had more international appeal than rap did at the time, even if that's no longer the case. The average non-American might have been able to name Tupac as that rapper who got killed, but I'd be surprised if more than a fraction could name any tracks. Everyone knew Nirvana - even if you didn't like them and that wasn't your thing (common in the UK which went Britpop), you still knew the name and knew the tracks.
I prefer rap to grunge and I listen to Tupac more than I do Nirvana, but being alive at the time, I know which impacted the popular consensus more.
BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
You're saying that when All Eyes on Me is about to come out.
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
Why do rap/hip hop heads bump heads with rock kids?
I liked both these legends, more so Kurt cos I leaned more grunge when I was younger (lean more Tupac as I am older)
I liked both these legends, more so Kurt cos I leaned more grunge when I was younger (lean more Tupac as I am older)
But the question isn't "Who was more well known at the time of their death"
For perspective, if your reading of the situation is true, then, directly or indirectly, 'Pac is almost certainly responsible for the international appeal rap currently enjoys.
Grunge was a label thrust on them.
Alternative rock is still alive and well, and Nirvana's influences are incredibly clear.
BibiMaghoo
Member
Surely that is directly relevant to their impact? A lesser known person cannot have the greater impact?
HeartlessNobody213
Member
Depends on the person I guess.
I didn't even know about Kurt or Nirvana for that matter until I was in my late teens.
It's one thing to say that Tupac isn't as popular internationally as in the U.S but a lot of people are making it sound like dude is a straight up nobody and I don't think that's the case.
I didn't even know about Kurt or Nirvana for that matter until I was in my late teens.
It's one thing to say that Tupac isn't as popular internationally as in the U.S but a lot of people are making it sound like dude is a straight up nobody and I don't think that's the case.
SamuelSupreme
Banned
Tupac without a doubt. Kurt is mentioned still today. But in the realm of Hip Hop and music Tupac is on the same level as Bob Marley, Michael Jackson and Elvis. Tupac's influence still affects the musical landscape today. Also add that his legacy is being carried on through Kendrick Lamar and you see why he's more relevant still.
uncelestial
Member
Lots of people making it into a "who is more popular" thread and not answering the OP's question.
Yeah, but its not hard to make the argument that those bands were carbon copies of those before and the critical acclaim was dying down.
With the death of Nirvana while you had great bands like Pumpkins selling millions (and Radiohead into the OK Comp era) but overall that vaccuum let to the rise of mediocre bands and ended that era of rock music.
Because of grunge's harder edge made it acceptable for heavier riffs and screaming and thus helped utter in the nu-metal era which quickly became parody.
Going into the '00's you still had unique bands like the White Stripes and the New York scene and its derivatives (Strokes, Killers) but as a cultural and critical force hip-hop and more electronic based music started taking rock's place in the pop landscape and eventually the critical space one too.
On the flip we can make the argument that Tupac's death was oddly 'good' for the hip hop genre where the subsequent wiping of the slate with him and biggie's death let others shine (would Biggie have done what Jay-Z did with his blueprint as far as making and being responsible for making records that were respected critically, on the street, and in the pop space with no baggage...already people were calling Biggie a sellout before his death)
TheChewyWaffles
Member
But he is.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Not even close. At least from a European perspective, it was almost singlehandedly Eminem. It was a clear before/after moment in rap's profile (sadly, probably because he was white).
Again, that's not for quality reasons or because Tupac's music wasn't good or anything. Just, his profile was sufficiently low for enough markets that I don't think his death significantly impacted the course of genre. Meanwhile, Cobain was grunge.
As I said in my edit. If the rap scene was genuinely that unknown at the time of 'Pac's death, then 'Pac is either directly, or indirectly (through the many rappers directly inspired by him after his death) for making rap an international juggernaut.
Depends on demographics, I think, and it is not really measurable.
That said, I think probably Tupac for the pop music of the last decade or so, due to his genre being huge, but Nirvana for the 90's and early 00's, when rock was much more prominent in the charts around the world. But both had massive influence on their respective genres at any point in time since their deaths.
That said, I think probably Tupac for the pop music of the last decade or so, due to his genre being huge, but Nirvana for the 90's and early 00's, when rock was much more prominent in the charts around the world. But both had massive influence on their respective genres at any point in time since their deaths.
That's pretty lazy. Just because rap/hip-hop is urrently more commercially popular than alt rock music doesn't mean Tupac's death had more impact.