-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Which is more powerful: DS or N64?
- Thread starter MAZYORA
- Start date
StrikerObi
Member
DS.
the DS internal chipset is not the same as Nintendo 64's MIPS CPU and Reality Co-Processor graphics chip.
in some ways, the DS is probably less powerful. only 120,000 polygons rendered/displayed on screen, without anti-aliasing or bilinear filtering. the N64 could do about 160,000 polygons on screen *with* anti-aliasing and bilinear filtering. however, DS's screen is much smaller and lower resolution than what N64 had to display on. so that kinda makes up for DS's somewhat weaker hardware. overall, DS seems comparable to N64, much like the PSP is comparable to PS2. And overall, DS games might tend to look better than N64 games, because of the small screen. the Metroid game looked really nice, running around at a high framerate.
in some ways, the DS is probably less powerful. only 120,000 polygons rendered/displayed on screen, without anti-aliasing or bilinear filtering. the N64 could do about 160,000 polygons on screen *with* anti-aliasing and bilinear filtering. however, DS's screen is much smaller and lower resolution than what N64 had to display on. so that kinda makes up for DS's somewhat weaker hardware. overall, DS seems comparable to N64, much like the PSP is comparable to PS2. And overall, DS games might tend to look better than N64 games, because of the small screen. the Metroid game looked really nice, running around at a high framerate.
Red Dolphin
Member
MAZYORA said:
Well if you compare between images between Mario 64 and Mario 64x4 you;ll notice that the characters are more detailed and constructed of more polygons.
Shogmaster
Member
N64 has perspective correct filtered textures. DS has neither. DS is no N64. Imagine how good N64 games would look at 240x160 or whatever DS's screen res is.
Shogmaster
Member
Red Dolphin said:
What zoo smokin'? M64x4 has almost no background detail showing! You weren't at the show, were ya?
SolidSnakex
Member
Shogmaster said:
There have been very conflicting reports about the systems graphics as a whole. Some say they're clearly better than the N64 in person, others say they aren't. Just going by the pics though, they don't look as good as N64 games to me, although Mario 64x4 is close. The pixellation seems to be the main thing seperating them from being on N64 level. It's heavy in some games it seems.
SpoonyBard
Banned
I'd think that DS doesn't have the same bottlenecks that N64 had, and we will see better texturing and framerates because of that.
"From what I remember from my playtest, Mario 64x4 moves less poligons and has PSone textures, so I guess no is the answer. In fact, Mario 64x4 is how you could expect Mario 64 to look like on PSone."
Here's the problem. It's quite true that backgrounds are less detailed, but the characters looked quite beefier than the original Mario game. There's one pic I remember from E3 that shows that the chain chomp is actually modeled this time rather than being a sprite. Really, I don't think anybody is going to be able to tell which is better just by looking at the screen and pics.
Here's the problem. It's quite true that backgrounds are less detailed, but the characters looked quite beefier than the original Mario game. There's one pic I remember from E3 that shows that the chain chomp is actually modeled this time rather than being a sprite. Really, I don't think anybody is going to be able to tell which is better just by looking at the screen and pics.
From what I've seen in motion, Metroid Hunters looks better than any first person shooter I've seen on N64 (save for maybe Perfect Dark, but it certainly moved alot smoother than Perfect Dark), and Mario 64X4 (while it had some pixilization) ran as smooth as Mario 64 plus it had three additional player characters being rendered. I'd say the DS is more powerful. And I'll bet those launch demos do nothing but improve as they become full games.
Kobun Heat
Member
I couldn't say about the actual technology, but perceptively the DS is better than the N64. Metroid Prime: Hunters reminds me of the Gamecube game far more than it does PD on the N64.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
I thought that considering how Turok on N64 looks about the same as FFXII on PS2, there's no question that DS is not as powerful.
Seriously though, Turok does look better than Metroid game on DS, at least technically, but probably doesn't have as good framerate.
DS seems to be able to push at least the same amount polygons as N64 (or maybe even more, judging by the framerates) but the features of it's graphics chip are clearly quite a bit below what N64 had. That is - if it has 3D graphics chip to begin with. So far, all signs point that it performs software rendering.
Seriously though, Turok does look better than Metroid game on DS, at least technically, but probably doesn't have as good framerate.
DS seems to be able to push at least the same amount polygons as N64 (or maybe even more, judging by the framerates) but the features of it's graphics chip are clearly quite a bit below what N64 had. That is - if it has 3D graphics chip to begin with. So far, all signs point that it performs software rendering.
Both systems do T&L on processors...but from what it seems DS lacks Z-Buffer, Perspective Correction, Filtering and so many features that the N64 had...
N64 "rasterizer" was very limited so not all the polys could be displayed and on the other hand it needed the RSP to also do audio...DS has a free ARM7 and the polys you can calculate are the ones you can display.
So you can see how they are powerful on different aspects...If DS gives me PSX/Saturn pixelated mess that moves smooth I'll be happy. There is no need for choppy framerates like in the N64 times.
N64 "rasterizer" was very limited so not all the polys could be displayed and on the other hand it needed the RSP to also do audio...DS has a free ARM7 and the polys you can calculate are the ones you can display.
So you can see how they are powerful on different aspects...If DS gives me PSX/Saturn pixelated mess that moves smooth I'll be happy. There is no need for choppy framerates like in the N64 times.
ourumov--Well it seem like that's where they wanted to go with the machine. I'm sure I read some press release or spec sheet put out by Nintendo that stated that solid frame rates (including 60fps) should be pretty much a given. With that and the small viewing area, the blow to IQ from the lack of filtering will be soften (there still might be hope that hardware modifications are underway to resolve some the effects a filtering issues).
Shogmaster
Member
ge-man said:
What's the point of having a 60FPS game when the LCD can't refresh fast enough to show it? I doubt the LCD on DS is rated 16ms or faster.
The biggest advantage the DS will have over the N64 is texture power. With more data available, the DS will be able to have more detailed textures than anything that was on the N64. Textures won't look like fuzzy blobs of goop as they did in the N64. Metroid Hunters is something that you probably wouldn't be able to do on the N64 as a full out game due to the complexity of the textures and environments. If the DS would be able to do some filtering, I believe it fall in between an n64 and a dreamcast.
Here's hoping the system is beefed up with a bit of filtering before release. Even basic bilinear filtering and maybe some AA would really make games look good on those little screens.
That's not to say I have a problem with how they look now, though, but it seems like with just another feature or two they could have really nice-looking software on a low-cost unit (although admittedly I am no tech-head -- adding the above two features could add another $50 on for all I know).
That's not to say I have a problem with how they look now, though, but it seems like with just another feature or two they could have really nice-looking software on a low-cost unit (although admittedly I am no tech-head -- adding the above two features could add another $50 on for all I know).
Personally, the only reason I would suggest Nintendo beef the machine up is because it does get stomped on by the PSP in general. They should at least try to get it closer.. Outside of the compeition aspect, most of what I'm interested in playing on the DS does not need Naomi level visuals. How many more effects and polys will I need to enjoy Animal Crossing or Wario Ware?
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Well, truth be told, in the right hands, N64 didn't really have sluggish framerates. F-Zero looked pretty damn nice, and moved at 60FPS if I remember correctly.
Detailed N64 specifications are pretty easy to come by...
CPU: MIPS 64-bit RISC CPU (customized R4000 series)
CLOCK SPEED: 93.75 MHz
CO-PROCESSOR: 64-bit RISC processor running at 62.5 MHz
-RCP SP (Sound and Graphics Processor)and DP ( Pixel Drawing Processor)
GRAPHICS PROCESSING FUNCTION: Z-Buffering, Anti-aliasing, eliminates jagged lines and edges, mostly in low res. Realistic texture-mapping. Alpha Channel effects\Fog, Transparency, etc. Ray-Tracing/sophisticated form of light tracing ability. Gouraud shading, (Featuring: Tri-Linear filtered mip-map interpolation, Perspective correction, Environment mapping)
MEMORY: Rambus D-RAM 36 Mbits
TRANSFER SPEED: Maximum transfer speed 4,500 M bits/sec. running at 500Mhz.
RESOLUTION: 256 X 224 - 640 X 480 dots with flicker free interlace mode support
COLOR: Maximum: 16.8 million colors, 32-Bit RGBA
-Pixel Color Frames Buffer Support & 21-Bit color video output out of a 16.8 million color palette it can display 32,000 on screen colors at once
VIDEO OUTPUT: RF, RGB, and HDTV compatible
AUDIO: Stereo 16-bit/64 PCM channels sampled at 44.1 kHz
BENCHMARK PERFORMANCE:
-Main CPU clocked at 125 MIPS (millions of instructions per second)
-Graphics Co-Processor clocked at 100+ MFLOPS (millions of floating point operations per second) 100,000 polygons per second, with all hardware graphic features turned on.
CPU
-MIPS R4300i
-93.75MHz
-64-bit
-24KB L1
-125 MIPS
-250 MB/sec Bus
Graphics
-SGI RCP
-62.5MHz
-100 MFLOPS
-150K Polygons/Sec
-32-bit Color
-500 MB/sec Bus
Audio
-SGI RCP
-64 2D Voices
-ADPCM
-500 MB/sec Bus
Data
-4MB Unified (500 MB/s)
-Cartridge (32MB)
-Expansion 4MB RAM
...and here's the leaked (but verified) DS specs...
CPU
Processor #1: 67MHz ARM946E-S
Processor #2: 33MHz ARM7TDMI (2x clock speed GBA processor)
Memory
Main RAM: 4MB
Video RAM: 656KB
Display
256x192 Resolution LCD Touch Screen
18-bit Color (262,144 colors)
2D Graphics
4 Parallax Background Layers
128 Maximum Sprites
3D Graphics
120,000 Polygons per Second
30 Million Pixels per Second
...and here's a laymans terms analysis of those leaked specs...
"Idiot terms? Hmmm...let's see.
- 3D graphics better than Nintendo 64 (considering screen size)
- level sizes similar to Nintendo 64 games
- AI, physics, etc. similar to Nintendo 64 games
- 3D FPS graphics like a low resolution version of Quake II
- 2D graphics better than Saturn/PSone
- overall closest thing is Nintendo 64
I think that gives enough general idea.
Want MIPS/MFLOPS numbers too?
GBA - 15 MIPS
PSone - 30 MIPS
NDS - 100 MIPS / 50-66 MFLOPS (guess)
N64 - 125 MIPS / 100 MFLOPS
Dreamcast - 360 MIPS / 1400 MFLOPS "
...and finally here's what Nintendo's website says...
3-D: With the newly developed graphics engine, DS can reproduce impressive 3-D renderings that can surpass images displayed on the Nintendo® 64. Games will run at 60 frames per second, and allow details like fog effects and cel shading.
Sound: The 16-channel sound allows for greatly expanded use of voices and music, and a richer, more immersive game experience. A plug for headphones transmits stereo sound.
CPU: MIPS 64-bit RISC CPU (customized R4000 series)
CLOCK SPEED: 93.75 MHz
CO-PROCESSOR: 64-bit RISC processor running at 62.5 MHz
-RCP SP (Sound and Graphics Processor)and DP ( Pixel Drawing Processor)
GRAPHICS PROCESSING FUNCTION: Z-Buffering, Anti-aliasing, eliminates jagged lines and edges, mostly in low res. Realistic texture-mapping. Alpha Channel effects\Fog, Transparency, etc. Ray-Tracing/sophisticated form of light tracing ability. Gouraud shading, (Featuring: Tri-Linear filtered mip-map interpolation, Perspective correction, Environment mapping)
MEMORY: Rambus D-RAM 36 Mbits
TRANSFER SPEED: Maximum transfer speed 4,500 M bits/sec. running at 500Mhz.
RESOLUTION: 256 X 224 - 640 X 480 dots with flicker free interlace mode support
COLOR: Maximum: 16.8 million colors, 32-Bit RGBA
-Pixel Color Frames Buffer Support & 21-Bit color video output out of a 16.8 million color palette it can display 32,000 on screen colors at once
VIDEO OUTPUT: RF, RGB, and HDTV compatible
AUDIO: Stereo 16-bit/64 PCM channels sampled at 44.1 kHz
BENCHMARK PERFORMANCE:
-Main CPU clocked at 125 MIPS (millions of instructions per second)
-Graphics Co-Processor clocked at 100+ MFLOPS (millions of floating point operations per second) 100,000 polygons per second, with all hardware graphic features turned on.
CPU
-MIPS R4300i
-93.75MHz
-64-bit
-24KB L1
-125 MIPS
-250 MB/sec Bus
Graphics
-SGI RCP
-62.5MHz
-100 MFLOPS
-150K Polygons/Sec
-32-bit Color
-500 MB/sec Bus
Audio
-SGI RCP
-64 2D Voices
-ADPCM
-500 MB/sec Bus
Data
-4MB Unified (500 MB/s)
-Cartridge (32MB)
-Expansion 4MB RAM
...and here's the leaked (but verified) DS specs...
CPU
Processor #1: 67MHz ARM946E-S
Processor #2: 33MHz ARM7TDMI (2x clock speed GBA processor)
Memory
Main RAM: 4MB
Video RAM: 656KB
Display
256x192 Resolution LCD Touch Screen
18-bit Color (262,144 colors)
2D Graphics
4 Parallax Background Layers
128 Maximum Sprites
3D Graphics
120,000 Polygons per Second
30 Million Pixels per Second
...and here's a laymans terms analysis of those leaked specs...
"Idiot terms? Hmmm...let's see.
- 3D graphics better than Nintendo 64 (considering screen size)
- level sizes similar to Nintendo 64 games
- AI, physics, etc. similar to Nintendo 64 games
- 3D FPS graphics like a low resolution version of Quake II
- 2D graphics better than Saturn/PSone
- overall closest thing is Nintendo 64
I think that gives enough general idea.
Want MIPS/MFLOPS numbers too?
GBA - 15 MIPS
PSone - 30 MIPS
NDS - 100 MIPS / 50-66 MFLOPS (guess)
N64 - 125 MIPS / 100 MFLOPS
Dreamcast - 360 MIPS / 1400 MFLOPS "
...and finally here's what Nintendo's website says...
3-D: With the newly developed graphics engine, DS can reproduce impressive 3-D renderings that can surpass images displayed on the Nintendo® 64. Games will run at 60 frames per second, and allow details like fog effects and cel shading.
Sound: The 16-channel sound allows for greatly expanded use of voices and music, and a richer, more immersive game experience. A plug for headphones transmits stereo sound.
Overall from the images I've seen, I don't think DS can surpass N64 but it doesn't need too really. With the drop in resolution, DS will come out on top visually. Same goes for a PS2 & PSP comparison, PSP's pushing around half the geometry PS2 is capable of, but with the samller display games will look comparable in the end.
So in essence... PSP is to PS2 as NDS is to N64.
I'm more interested in comparisons with DS' 2D capabilities now... is it really more capable than Saturn?
So in essence... PSP is to PS2 as NDS is to N64.
I'm more interested in comparisons with DS' 2D capabilities now... is it really more capable than Saturn?
imastalker co.
Banned
pretty interesting stuff.
anyways, from what i saw at E3, the backrounds in Mario64x4 clearly aren't as good as the N64 ones. the character models on the other hand, are really great. they almost look as good as their GameCube counter parts.
Mario Kart DS also looks a lot better than Mario Kart 64. with all the characters being 3D now, they have better animation compared to the 64 ones. really nice character models too.
if they did infact get rid of all the bottlenecks that the N64 had though, and it has comparable strength, i think they'll be able to get more out of the DS graphically. especially with the smaller screen.
oh and uh, where can i get some info about the DS supposedly having better 2D than the Saturn?
anyways, from what i saw at E3, the backrounds in Mario64x4 clearly aren't as good as the N64 ones. the character models on the other hand, are really great. they almost look as good as their GameCube counter parts.
Mario Kart DS also looks a lot better than Mario Kart 64. with all the characters being 3D now, they have better animation compared to the 64 ones. really nice character models too.
if they did infact get rid of all the bottlenecks that the N64 had though, and it has comparable strength, i think they'll be able to get more out of the DS graphically. especially with the smaller screen.
oh and uh, where can i get some info about the DS supposedly having better 2D than the Saturn?
60 fps on N64 were very RARE...As far as I remember the list was practically reserved to 2D stuff and F-Zero...
And I can assure you that PAL versions were a pain in the arse... Zelda OOT was 15 fps and you could still consider it to be a hi-framerate game...The worst was PD since it made me sick in less than 5 minutes...
And I can assure you that PAL versions were a pain in the arse... Zelda OOT was 15 fps and you could still consider it to be a hi-framerate game...The worst was PD since it made me sick in less than 5 minutes...
Well, i won't consider screen size. It's not a good argument if we really want to compare the two. I could play my N64 in a very small TV if i want after all.
From what we've seen so far, DS = no perspective correcting, less polys in Mario64 demo and probably in Metroid too, no mip mapping of whatever it's called the filtering function over the textures = closer to PS1.
Anyhow depends what you're checking at. I could say DS is better too because god damned the N64 is a badly configured hardware. The N64 was a Lion in a cage, very bad. Only Rare and Nintendo got something outta that crap...
From what we've seen so far, DS = no perspective correcting, less polys in Mario64 demo and probably in Metroid too, no mip mapping of whatever it's called the filtering function over the textures = closer to PS1.
Anyhow depends what you're checking at. I could say DS is better too because god damned the N64 is a badly configured hardware. The N64 was a Lion in a cage, very bad. Only Rare and Nintendo got something outta that crap...
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
jarrod said:
Jarrod: the RSP, with custom micro-code, could pump, at about PSOne quality ( which is what the DS does output since it has no Texture Filtering and Perspective Correction ), around 500K polygons/s the RSP should not have a MFLOP rating as it was a Fixed-Point processor and the only FPU was the one attached to the R4300i CPU.
The DS seems to have better pixel-fill rate than what the N64 had and it uses a lower resolution screen which will allow the DS to close the gap ( and even pass it ) with the N64 in a lot of scenarios.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Tekky said:
There is, but they are spending quite a bit more polygons in the 3D backgrounds they do have in games to minimize such effect: smaller polygons produce less noticeable texture warping. Compare Tomb Raider 1 with Tomb Raider 4 ans you will see a great reduction how textures warp around.
Naked Snake
Member
Tekky said:
Like Pana said, unfortunately there is. I didn't see it at first, until I downloaded a certain video of Metroid Prime Hunters and it was very obvious... The lack of texture filtering is difficult to see in most low-res videos.