PatientRain
Member
Skyrim - unless you want the challenge.
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Which should I jump into first Skyrim or Dark Souls?
- Thread starter dr3upmushroom
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Lasthope106
Member
I really liked Dark Souls, but this is 100% correct. The story and specially the side-quests were not clear at all, to the point of being irritating. I mean I can handle the game being mysterious, but FROM took this aspect a little too far IMO. The game is already long. Perhaps it was a design decision meant for people willing to sink 1000 hours into DS, but for the rest of us, I simply don't have the time to get a notebook and put the story together from item descriptions.
I'm still doubtful a lot of the stuff in Dark Souls would have been discovered without the strategy guide that shipped with the game.
Acerac
Banned
Why that sounds downright optional. Never did that in my first playthrough, though I'll admit on my current game I did clear an area 3 times just because the drops were so dang good. Took me maybe 10 minutes total.
If that counts as grinding these days (getting 20+ helpful drops from 3 runs through a small area) then the definition sure changed from my WoW days!
Some us prefer subtlety. If you prefer hours upon hours of voice acting then Skyrim is certainly a better game.
It's a double-edged sword, I think.
Honestly I don't know what the correct answer for this is. I like it how it is at the moment, but I also understand that 85% of the people that play the game won't be able to discover, of even have the patience to piece together the Lore.
Let's see how they do it in DkS 2
Someone said it earlier. The basic narrative needs to be clearly established. I don't know about others, but I went through most of the game having no clue what was going on, or why I was doing anything that I was doing. That shouldn't be the case. Stuff like the background story of Havel the Rock and what happened to New Londo can be kept as information for the gamer to search for. But my goals and the purpose behind what I'm doing shouldn't be.
NinjaBoiX
Member
Basically this.
If you want a tough, rewarding game with tight controls and combat, play DS. If you aren't so bothered about that, Skyrim is probably the better choice.
It doesn't play nearly as well in terms of combat, but it's a lot more entertaining outside of that IMO.
Yes yes yes, I understand that you enjoy the finer things in life. But I think even you can agree that something like "Where am I? Who am I? What am I going here? Why am I doing this?" can be clearly explained without losing the game's sense of mystery.
Yes, reading your post, I think you are right. A little more direction as to your purpose would be nice. I just don't want them to spell everything out about the world background and such, only the necessary to give ground to your journey.
Can you provide some specific examples of things like this in Skyrim? My biggest problem with the game was that it seemed like quantity was given such greater emphasis than quality. That sense of adventure and exploration died for me after 30 hours because I hardly ever found anything interesting in the places I would explore. I really wish there was some sort of "Bethesda Recommends" option in Skyrim that filtered out most of the pointless dungeons or sidequests, and made it easier to find stuff like the Daedra quests. Every single time I worked my way through a dungeon, mine, or dwarven ruin, and found nothing at the end, it just crushed my will to keep playing that game. It would be different if the combat was enjoyable, but it's such a damn chore.
I'm curious why you keep referring to how large Skyrim's world is, or how small Dark Souls' is. You might not be able to spot something off in the distance, and run there like in Skyrim, but the sense of adventure and exploration I had the first time I set foot in the Tomb of the Giants, or Darkroot Forest in Dark Souls far exceeded anything that Skyrim offered up. I always just felt like a tourist in Skyrim, whereas Dark Souls actually felt like an adventure.
Acerac
Banned
What? Yes it can. They outright tell you the answer to those questions. You don't even have to search for an answer an NPC blatantly tells you these things.
Here's the NPC he is in the starting hub area and is impossible to miss really. He doesn't show up right away of course, so yes, there is some mystery to your quest early, but even before he shows up there are hints.
Really? Who was it? The serpent? The one talking about Lordvessals and what not?
EDIT: Yeah it was. And yes, I don't think Frampt's exposition does anything close to a good job of explaining much of anything. I remember when I first met him, I just wondered "What the hell is he talking about? What's a Lordvessel? Why am I doing this? Whatever. Go to Anor Londo. Gotcha."
Lasthope106
Member
The why do I keep seeing posts about people getting confused about what way to go when they arrive in Lordran?
edit: I learned more about the lore and the world of Dark Souls from reading the wiki than from the game itself. That should definitely not be the case.
fuzzyreactor
Banned
Disagree with this as well: level design, enemy/character design, voice acting, story telling(not the content of the story, which i do like, but they way it is told), character building, online, etc all make Dark Souls more entertaining. Dark Souls does character building so damn well, from weapons and armor to min/maxing stats, it has become a obsession/addiction for me and many players. Haven't had as much fun making builds since Diablo 2 and of course Demons Souls
20cent
Banned
Skyrim (on PC though).
3/4 of people here didn't play DS anyway, that's just cool to pretend they did, it's 'hardcore' and 'pure gameplay'.
If you don't have many hours to spend, avoid it, the beginning (first 10 hours?) will be quite frustrating.
It is also cool to say that Skyrim sucks, it suddenly became the COD of 'rpg'... hype and anti-hype logic.
NinjaBoiX
Member
Why? What bearing does that have on knowing the story in DS making the environments more interesting? The two are unrelated.
The guys in the tutorial dungeon, the first guy you see at Firelink Shrine, the serpent in firelink, the
the other serpent, in New Londo Ruins
Acerac
Banned
I'd assume because people don't talk to the NPC placed right in front of them when they start the game? He says you have to go up or down to progress, going down gets you killed, so you take the path up. It's not too confusing really.
I learned more about the lore of Elder Scrolls from the wikis than the games. The Imperial Library is an amazing site. Whats your point?
Yes? Is there something I'm missing? Even if he's not COMPLETELY honest with you he gives you a very good idea of what's going on. Any other details are filled in during your journey.
Oh ok. Check the link I posted, he clearly tells you what you're doing and why.
I... I don't know how to say this, but perhaps you should pay better attention?
Rickenslacker
Banned
Can you really meaningfully do those in Skyrim? Genuine question, as those seem less like Skyrim opening up avenues to roleplay as much as it seems like someone wanting to make a specialty playthrough. What does someone who roleplays a merchant in Skyrim actually do? Or for that matter a pacifist? The cartography is just a function of the automap, you're doing it anyway.
To answer your question AFAIK only two NPCs aren't open to attack by you, and they're locked away in cells.
It really is quite apparent who got stuck in Undead Burg and who didn't.
Soyongdori
Member
Skyrim is more epic with central story, plus mods of this game makes 1000x better and more fun compared to Dark Souls.
Dark Souls is just fun game with massive challenges.
Dark Souls is just fun game with massive challenges.
The first serpent still takes some time to show up, if you are new to the game.
The crestfallen NPC does give you some indications, but I think that the point is that it is still extremely vague what your actual motivation for fighting your way to ring a bell is. There is little context. Although, one could say that this is where the role-playing part kicks-in, and you are sort of making your own story, which is also legitimate IMO.
Again, I like it as it is, but I can understand some of the complaints regarding this point.
Lasthope106
Member
I had no problem, I talked to the NPC and knew which way to go. My point is FROM took it too far by making the story way too minimalistic. My biggest complaint is Solaire quest, which perfectly describes how I feel about this aspect of the game. How would you even find by yourself on your first playthrough all the necessary conditions to complete his side-quest? You can't unless by pure random chance.
Acerac
Banned
Oh, if the complaint is that you don't know your motivations from the very beginning then I guess that's true. Granted, personally I don't mind stories taking time to unfold, but if one was all about instant gratification then Dark Soul's story might unfold a bit slowly for them.
I failed that quest. I'm not even mad, I got an amazing item for doing so. Gonna save him this time though, as now I know how to approach it.
I think many of the people who dislike Dark Souls get overly upset if they "fail" a quest or die. You're supposed to die and fail quests, it's part of the game design. Chill, it's not a big deal nobody is judging you you can fix it on a replay.
I joined the covenant and cleared one side of the bugs purely by chance. Was so close. ;_;
This is true. If I'm not mistaken, the only way to save him later on is to get into the convenent (level 2 I think) to open the shortcut, where those bugs are, and kill them, correct?
If this is really the only way, then yeah it is a bit too much obscured.
That's the thing, isn't it? Those games aren't are everyone, and it is completely fine, but in the meantime you have all these posters showing up whenever someone mentions Dark Souls to insult everyone else's tastes and imply that they are worse human beings for disagreeing.
He tells you are to succeed Gwyn. How? Why? What does that mean?
He says you are to link the Fire? What Fire?
He says you are to cast away the Dark? What Dark?
He says you will undo the curse of the undead. I don't even understand the nature of the curse.
So you must get the Lordvessel. What's a Lordvessel?
Nothing he said made much of any sense, outside of "Go here and get this". Imagine my first playthrough, when I didn't even know that lore was hidden in item descriptions. This isn't subtlety. It's obfuscation.
If they told you everything off the bat, why bother playing. As you play the game, you find out what he actually means. You start the game and given the overall quest. How much you understand is what makes the game great.
All those things you asked are answered as you progress through a story. The game makes you think about the story a little deeper. The Epic Name Bro Lore videos are a great example of how much is going on.
As a huge side-line, the first Firekeeper Soul you find in the church, anyone else feel a little sad that they died on that slab, almost like a sacrifice? Stuff like that is why I love DS.
You cannot. I've been begging for more roleplaying stuff in these games for so long now. The furthest you can take being a merchant in Skyrim is selling stuff to people which you do in every RPG ever. You also cannot play the game and get anywhere as a pacifist. It's not like New Vegas where you can do everything (at the very least the main story) without killing a single living being.
They were hyping up a bunch of RP stuff before the game came out but they were all lies. They would say things like you can chop trees down but if you chopped down too many it would ruin the economy of the nearby village and cause lumber shortages throughout Skyrim. Total 110% horseshit.
Yeah everyone's just making everything up, no one played either game. Great post. I don't know why some people are so bothered that people like Dark Souls or think that they're just pretending to or something... it's very strange. Likewise, people saying Skryim sucks MUST be doing so because it's cool to say that it's the COD of RPG games... I'm pretty sure the people who didn't like Skyrim wanted to like it and were disappointed and had valid reasons, based on the posts in this thread where people talk about their specific complaints in detail and not some bullshit that I pulled out of my ass.
Lasthope106
Member
The way I feel about Dark Souls is the same way I feel about games like StarCraft and DOTA2. You are given a set of gameplay mechanics and you can get better and better the more you play. Eventually you get good enough, you master said mechanics and that enables you to do amazing things and have a lot of fun. This is why I enjoyed Dark Souls, because it succeeds in being a "game" in every respect. If you don't enjoy the minute-to-minute combat, then you don't really enjoy what Dark Souls is.
For me, beating increasingly stronger opponents was one of the biggest motivations of playing the game. Once I accepted that fact, the lore and story became nice bonuses to have, but not really the main point.
However, when I play a Bethesda game (have only played Fallout 3) I want to immerse myself in a world where I become the hero. Gameplay takes a back seat to the story, and character dialog. I want to learn about the people and the world and follow and epic quest. At least in Fallout 3, by the end of the game I felt I had been in long journey. The motives were clear from the beginning. The world was filled with secrets too but they weren't so deeply hidden. If I'm to play Skyrim this year that's the kind of experience I want to get. If I want a challenge, I'll just wait for Dark Souls 2 or play Demon Souls.
For me, beating increasingly stronger opponents was one of the biggest motivations of playing the game. Once I accepted that fact, the lore and story became nice bonuses to have, but not really the main point.
However, when I play a Bethesda game (have only played Fallout 3) I want to immerse myself in a world where I become the hero. Gameplay takes a back seat to the story, and character dialog. I want to learn about the people and the world and follow and epic quest. At least in Fallout 3, by the end of the game I felt I had been in long journey. The motives were clear from the beginning. The world was filled with secrets too but they weren't so deeply hidden. If I'm to play Skyrim this year that's the kind of experience I want to get. If I want a challenge, I'll just wait for Dark Souls 2 or play Demon Souls.
Acerac
Banned
Here is the intro to the game. It answers your first three questions. Perhaps you didn't watch it, that would explain much of your confusion.
A good chunk of NPC's in the game are constantly whining about being cursed undead. Seeing as how the game shows you that you can turn human, it's a very small leap to make that the curse is that you are indeed undead. Hell, I don't even know that I'm right, I'm just making an assumption based on easily available knowledge and I bet you I'm right.
The Lordvessel is the item that allows you to succeed Gwyn, as the serpent explains. Get the Lordvessel and you see how it works. Why is this a problem?
Seriously though, did you not watch the intro on your first playthrough? I know when I heard Gwyn get namedropped I knew that shit was about to get real. If that caused you confusion instead then I guess you should just pay better attention? All these things (cept the lordvessel) come up way before you first meet Frampt.
The Lordvessel is the item that allows you to succeed Gwyn, as the serpent explains. Get the Lordvessel and you see how it works. Why is this a problem?
Seriously though, did you not watch the intro on your first playthrough? I know when I heard Gwyn get namedropped I knew that shit was about to get real. If that caused you confusion instead then I guess you should just pay better attention? All these things (cept the lordvessel) come up way before you first meet Frampt.
Why that was downright rude of me, thanks for pointing that out.
If someone tells me something, and none of it has meaning, then I don't tend to retain what they said. All I ever remember from the Frampt conversation was that I had to go to Anor Londo. I forgot everything else because it didn't make any sense when I first heard it.
You guys might think that actually TELLING a story is somehow...simplistic I guess. But there is value in it. For all of its faults, there was never a point in Skyrim where I didn't understand what I was doing, and for what purpose. It's possible to actually tell a story without losing mystery, and having twists and turns to engage and surprise your audience. Nothing would have been lost if Frampt actually explained what the fuck he was talking about.
Dark Souls also does a lot of it's story telling via NPC dialogue. It's just people have been trained by other games to ignore everything NPCs say if it doesn't add a quest log entry. Dark Souls NPCs tell you what to do but don't give you a quest log entry. People apparently forgot how to function without a quest log and a giant arrow pointing at their goal.
Also, and realistically, the NPC's dialogue is also colored by their personal opinions of events occurring. That's why Frampt and Kaathe say some contradictory things. They're the 2 opposing sides of a philosophical battle.
It's also why you can't trust what some NPCs are saying if they're acting shifty.
Beerman462
Member
I liked Dark Souls more. Dark Souls combat is way more engaging. I suppose they could have made the story/lore more accessible, but I don't know how without screwing up the pace of the game. I had a great time playing through it several times with a very loose grasp of the lore. Now through external sources like ENB videos I know alot more and it makes the game that much more interesting. I'm not big on sandbox games and after completing my third guild quest line in Skyrim I was done.
He says that taking Lord Gwyn's place will stop people from turning undead, which is what you set out to do in the first place.
"Chosen Undead. Your fate is… to succeed the Great Lord Gwyn.
So that you may link the Fire, cast away the Dark, and undo the curse of the Undead."
The opening narration sheds light on this.
"But soon, the flames will fade, and only Dark will remain
Even now, there are only embers, and man sees not light, but only endless nights
And amongst the living are seen, carriers of the accursed Darksign."
It's not hard to gather that "the fire" is going out and "the dark" is creeping in, which is why the world is going to hell and people are turning undead. Talking to pretty much any NPC will make it pretty clear that repeatedly dying and coming back to life until you become a mindless zombie is a BAD THING™ and that it's in your best interest to keep this from happening to everyone.
Your character gets tossed into a prison/asylum full of other undead at the beginning of the game. Also, the description of the Darksign, which is ALWAYS in your inventory and can't be discarded says:
"The Darksign signifies an accursed Undead.
Those branded with it are reborn after death,
but will one day lose their mind and go Hollow."
Do you need to know exactly what it is? It's the thing you need to succeed Lord Gwyn and end the curse. Frampt says it's in Anor Londo, a place you can go after you've finished Sen's Fortress. You know to go to Sen's Fortress because a cutscene plays that shows its gates opening after you ring both bells.
zephervack
Member
I have played exactly 70 hours of both games, Skyrim will grab you in the first 2 hours of gameplay and from there is all downhill, Dark Souls will click for you in around 10 hours and from then on is all uphill.
When Dark Souls clicks.. it will consume you, and it wont let you go, I think about the game, my character and the world all the freaking time now, I just wander about the worlds that lie beyond all the time, I wonder whats the best weapon I can get is, how to upgrade and I fantasize about the power I will acquire when I finally get my fix (more hours into the game).
There is this feeling of excitement every time I see a new fog gate (to get to a boss), its a time of reflection and it makes you stop and think, its unlike any feeling I have gotten playing video games.
Give Dark Souls a chance, my brother couldnt understand what was so good about the game, he played like 3 hours and just gave up, I went to his place and I played with him for like 5 hours on a weekend and then the game clicked for him, he cant put it down and we are constantly talking about our disoveries, strategies, upgrade paths all the time, I feel like im back in the SNES days talking to my friends at school about secret areas found in Donkey Kong Country.
I would say just skip Skyrim, once I started playing Dark Souls I completely forgot about that game, I just need more Dark Souls, I already bought Demon Souls so its there for me as soon as Im done with Dark Souls.
When Dark Souls clicks.. it will consume you, and it wont let you go, I think about the game, my character and the world all the freaking time now, I just wander about the worlds that lie beyond all the time, I wonder whats the best weapon I can get is, how to upgrade and I fantasize about the power I will acquire when I finally get my fix (more hours into the game).
There is this feeling of excitement every time I see a new fog gate (to get to a boss), its a time of reflection and it makes you stop and think, its unlike any feeling I have gotten playing video games.
Give Dark Souls a chance, my brother couldnt understand what was so good about the game, he played like 3 hours and just gave up, I went to his place and I played with him for like 5 hours on a weekend and then the game clicked for him, he cant put it down and we are constantly talking about our disoveries, strategies, upgrade paths all the time, I feel like im back in the SNES days talking to my friends at school about secret areas found in Donkey Kong Country.
I would say just skip Skyrim, once I started playing Dark Souls I completely forgot about that game, I just need more Dark Souls, I already bought Demon Souls so its there for me as soon as Im done with Dark Souls.
Lasthope106
Member
We are entering spoiler territory on the last few post my fellow GAFfers. I think it would be wise not to ruin the fun for those who haven't played the game yet.
Making the story more accessible in Dark Souls is a double edged sword.
On one hand, many players would understand it easier, but on the other hand, the cryptic nature that the way the game delivers it's story and presents it's world is one of the things that draws many people into it, and study it so carefully.
For me, I find it a breath of fresh air. I don't want my hand held like so many games do. I like that there isn't an insufferable tutorial level with something explaining every detail of the gameplay to me. And I enjoy that 99.9% of the game is a game. The cutscenes are light, and only what they need to be to get you moving again. A game that does this is almost forced to deliver it's story and world through ingame hints and subtlety.
my 2 cents.
On one hand, many players would understand it easier, but on the other hand, the cryptic nature that the way the game delivers it's story and presents it's world is one of the things that draws many people into it, and study it so carefully.
For me, I find it a breath of fresh air. I don't want my hand held like so many games do. I like that there isn't an insufferable tutorial level with something explaining every detail of the gameplay to me. And I enjoy that 99.9% of the game is a game. The cutscenes are light, and only what they need to be to get you moving again. A game that does this is almost forced to deliver it's story and world through ingame hints and subtlety.
my 2 cents.
"Dragonborn!" is basically what Skyrim is about. Even the announcement trailers basically summed up what you do. Maybe players are so use to rushing through NPC speech, that they barely retain information when it is not in a massive booming voice. Skyrim and Dark Souls just do their storytelling in different ways. Neither is wrong but coupled with the gameplay, I find DS more engaging.
There are many ways to tell a story, some actually involve players and get them to think about why things happen or why certain choices are offered to them. Other stories are direct and to the point "Save the World/Princess/Alien Lover."
As for Frampt. "Hey, get this thing to succeed Lord Gwyn." I dunno how obvious they can make it other than a little video popping up of you killing Gwyn and the Game Over screen appearing.
I agree, I love Fallout 3 and New Vegas for these reasons.
The first time I played Dark Souls i'll admit, I had barely any fucking idea what was going on in the story, and I talked to the NPCs and all that too. It also didn't bother me because that's not why I was playing the game. I understand it now and I love its method of storytelling, but if someone wanted to play an RPG for the story or their player's interaction with other characters, I'd recommend Fallout.
I got about 5 or 6 hours through DS and put it aside. My body was not ready to be defiled. After some time off, I jumped back in and I am now at the 110 hour mark and still loving it. It is the Diablo 2 sequel that I wanted from D3.
Acerac
Banned
Linear like Super Metroid.
Beerman462
Member
Linear huh. Good one. There are alot of required steps to finish the game, but for the most part you can choose the order you do it in.
But tha's thing though, tha's the story. You go along with the slight clues you have and like any good story more will be revealed the more you play. The lore you mention, it's there in buckets. It's there if you want to know more, it doesn't get in the way of gameplay leaving you to explore at your own free will. If you want to learn the story do so, if it doesn't mean much to you just enjoy the gameplay. You get back what you put in
Beerman462
Member
I love DS videos. Pvp, pvp trolling, 58min speed runs, and one shoting bosses. One shoting bosses as in killing them in one hit or cast...there is so much to do with the mechanics in this game it's amazing.