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[Skyfireblaze]

Has an online petition related to video games ever worked? Honest question.

If I remember correctly the Dark Souls PC version only exists thanks to a petition

And I myself will withhold from most of the discussion since I'm European and I don't know enough about the whole topic on all levels to say anything valuable though I only want to say that bringing up the whole PAL vs. NTSC is practically irrelevant today as I can tell from personal experience.

Back in 1994 when my dad bought a new cheapo CRT TV for me I was able to play Legend of Mana on it on my brothers imported US PSX, sure it came up as black and white though the TV itself had no trouble running things at 60hz in NTSC and after getting a RGB SCART cable we had color too. Now almost 20 years later I can connect this PSX to any LCD or LED TV and it will play just fine with color and everything so unless I missed something with CRT's being on their way out for mainstream PAL vs. NTSC seems like a thing of the past thankfully.

 

[Sentenza]

From the US consumer standpoint what do they really gain? US consumers pay less than Japanese/European and even Chinese consumers (unless we count the mom and pop editions) for the same entertainment?

American consumers already pay less than most countries right now.
That's exactly why I don't understand how that would "ruin" the american market.
If anything, the opposite. More people (like me) would eventually buy imported copies from the U.S.
But to be honest, I would consider the overall impact on the markets essentially negligible.
Most people aren't even aware of the option to import software/movies/music. And many of those who are, consider it too much of a hassle to bother.
And that's without even counting all these people who want/need the localized version.

Still, that's not even relevant to me. What I wonder is why corporations are supposed to have the right to exploit the market in dozens of ways, while consumers shouldn't "for the greater good".
It strikes me like brainwashing in act.

"Oh, hey, we live in a global economy.
Do you know how companies are allowed to hire people where manpower comes for cheap and exploit the market as it pleases them? Well, you can't, sucker. You have to pay what corporate men decided for you"

From what perspective does this strike you as rightful, exactly?

The gamer in me says sign this.

My inner political side says don't.

Sorry. Can't sign guys. Good luck though

My "inner political side" is even more favorable to this that the "gamer in me", actually.

That said, I don't even live in the U.S., so it's your loss. Mostly.

 

[I H8 Memes]

Seriously? Shouldnt the President be spending his time on more important things like getting Valve to make Half-Life 3?

 

[Palette Swap]

Err but games being released either PAL or NTSC is neccessary right? I dont think its an evil injustice. Books dont run on different electrical currents. Right?
Also what does the white house have to do with this?

PAL and NTSC are color coding standards that should only matter for legacy SD support on consoles. Whenever consoles output only HD, it won't matter. The only way it would matter for handhelds would be for video outputs.
As for current differences between countries, that's a hardware issue that doesn't impact software region locking.

The real issues are ratings/certifications, marketing choices (pricing, software differentiation, killing the market for a localization) but none should prevent a marginal grey market. That's honestly the only thing I wish for: to let this grey market live by not introducing hurdles.

 

[Derrick01]

I really don't feel like we should be wasting the white house's time with this. But this seems to be the recent hot thing to do lately, waste their time with stupid petitions like the death star and letting Texas (or whatever state it was) secede.

 

[Sentenza]

I really don't feel like we should be wasting the white house's time with this. But this seems to be the recent hot thing to do lately, waste their time with stupid petitions like the death star and letting Texas (or whatever state it was) secede.

That's exactly what politic is supposed to be about. Deciding what's better for people and making laws about it.
And frankly it strikes me as a topic well more worth of being argued than deciding if children should learn Bible fairy tales as a legitimate scientific alternative to evolution.

 

[espher]

I support this message.

 

[Dire]

Um, this is a global issue, so truly this can never be banned by one country. You would need governments from all over the world to ban it.

International law isn't so obvious. The US government squeezed out a billion dollar fine from the #1 online poker company and exposed a the #2 operating as a ponzi scheme and ultimately bankrupted them - because those foreign companies were allowing US players to play in accordance to all laws and regulations in the locations where the sites were operating, but against the DoJ's interpretation of US law which was far from black and white on the issue.

This will never become law as it would negatively impact many multinational corporations who have enormous influence in the US government, but have no doubt that if this did become US law it would result in a defacto mandate of comply or don't service Americans in which case it's obvious which companies would choose.

 

[Clear]

I really don't feel like we should be wasting the white house's time with this. But this seems to be the recent hot thing to do lately, waste their time with stupid petitions like the death star and letting Texas (or whatever state it was) secede.

Indeed. Its never going to happen so why waste time on it?

Objectively the Whitehouse has no right to dictate sales-terms to business interests outside the borders of the US.

 

[Fezzan]

Why is region-locking such a big deal?

 

[Dunan]

I want to hear somebody give an argument of principle why it should be illegal for a console manufacturer to design a console that has region-lock capabilities.

Consider the UN Declaration on Linguistic Rights.

Article 2, section 1: Persons belonging to national or ethnic, religious and linguistic minorities ... have the right to enjoy their own culture, ... and to use their own language, in private and in public, freely and without interference or any form of discrimination.

Region locking enables corporations to dictate what languages their potential customers can access their media in.

Let's leave the "in public" part out for a minute. It is inconceivable in this century that a government would attempt to prevent people from reading books in other languages in the privacy of their own homes. What right have video game and movie publishers to do this?

Producers of other media don't get to do this (or even want to). If I can read Russian and want to read Turgenev in the original, I'm not going to find a copy at the local bookshop, but I can write to the publisher in Moscow, send them the price of the book plus postage, and have it send to me in the UK or US or wherever.

If region-locked books were a thing, the front cover wouldn't open once I got it.

If my wife is (say) Italian and I'm American, and we want to raise an English-Italian bilingual child, why should we be denied the right to purchase media in both those languages?

Forget about market segmentation and price fixing for now, and consider people who are willing to pay each region's price for their games: why should they be denied? And don't say that they're getting the same product in their own region, and that they should suck it up and limit themselves to the majority language of that region.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I don't like region locking, but I think businesses should be well within their right to do it if they want to.

 

[Poltergust]

Signed.

Thank for signing this petition!

...Well, that's a rather glaring typo for an official government website.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Region locking enables corporations to dictate what languages their potential customers can access their media in.

Let's leave the "in public" part out for a minute. It is inconceivable in this century that a government would attempt to prevent people from reading books in other languages in the privacy of their own homes. What right have video game and movie publishers to do this?

Producers of other media don't get to do this (or even want to). If I can read Russian and want to read Turgenev in the original, I'm not going to find a copy at the local bookshop, but I can write to the publisher in Moscow, send them the price of the book plus postage, and have it send to me in the UK or US or wherever.

If region-locked books were a thing, the front cover wouldn't open once I got it.

If my wife is (say) Italian and I'm American, and we want to raise an English-Italian bilingual child, why should we be denied the right to purchase media in both those languages?

Forget about market segmentation and price fixing for now, and consider people who are willing to pay each region's price for their games: why should they be denied? And don't say that they're getting the same product in their own region, and that they should suck it up and limit themselves to the majority language of that region.

But books are region locked - you can't change the language of a book. You're getting confused because with games you have the "player" and the "game". With books they are one and the same. The book is both the means and the content. The government has no right to stop you buying a region locked game, but that doesn't mean you have the means to use it on your hardware.

Or, to put it another way, you ask why a game that you've bought shouldn't be playable on your Wii that you bought somewhere else. Is the same true if you buy a PC game that your hardware can't handle? The former may be an artificial intervention but the idea of your rights being violated by your not being able to play a game on a console that it doesn't work on isn't really affected by whether that inability to play was constructed as such or not. You have the right to use the software - you just don't have the capability to use it in the way you probably want.

 

[jaxpunk]

I really don't feel like we should be wasting the white house's time with this. But this seems to be the recent hot thing to do lately, waste their time with stupid petitions like the death star and letting Texas (or whatever state it was) secede.

Which is why the upped the required signatures to 100k to get a response.

 

[Sentenza]

Why is region-locking such a big deal?

Because it's downright an abuse.

"No, you can't buy this where it's cheaper and you can't buy the version you want either.
You can buy it just where we say you can buy it".

But books are region locked - you can't change the language of a book.

That's not what "region locked" means.

 

[PatientRain]

To echo a number of posts already, I don't see how this would be possible to institute and enforce as a law.

 

[jetsetfluken]

What about digital region locking?

You don't want to know the amount of Japanese-only Vita games and apps. 3DS too.
Cannot be used at all on other region PSN accounts! Yay!

I come from the idea that everything on a platform should be available to the user...and in this day and age, playable on the user's account.
Xbox does this relatively well besides retail region locking and certain games not being downloadable in other regions. PSN account and region locking is absolutely insane though.

The difference between Xbox and PSN though, is that on Xbox you can get more or less all of those games played on your account. PSN you can't at all.

 

[Fezzan]

because it's downright an abuse.

"No, you can't buy this where it's cheaper and you can't buy the version you want either.
You can buy it just where we say you can buy it".

You mean you can only buy it where you live?
Yeah this is a total abuse.

 

[Prime crotch]

I'd sign if I could, but this ain't happening.

 

[Monkeylord]

But books are region locked - you can't change the language of a book.

Eh?

Not quite the same thing. If I import a region free Japanese game it will in all probability only be in Japanese... but not being region locked it will still play on the console whether I understand the content or not. It's up to me to decide whether I can handle a game only in Japanese or not. If I import a region locked Japanese game, I can do little more than open the case and that's it. Attempting to play reults in an error message.

The equivalent of book region locking would be for me to buy a Japanese book, but my hands going numb every time I try to open it. My hands aren't Japanese enough to get past the cover.

 

[Sentenza]

You mean you can only buy it where you live?
Yeah this is a total abuse.

Yes. Yes, it is.
It is when I travel in other places far away from where I live.
It is when where I live they don't sell that thing in the language I want to listen/watch/play it.
It is when I want a specific version of that product that isn't sold where I live.
And so on.

 

[Fezzan]

Yes. Yes, it is.
It is when I travel in other places far away to where I live.
It is when where I live they don't sell that thing in the language I want to listen/watch/play it.
It is when I want a specific version of that product that isn't sold where I live.
And so on.

Yeah because people must travel all the time and always bring all their games with them.
You don't speak your own language sounds kinda dumb.
I get this.
and not so on.

 

[CyclopsRock]

That's not what "region locked" means.

I know it's not. I didn't make the metaphor. He said...

"If my wife is (say) Italian and I'm American, and we want to raise an English-Italian bilingual child, why should we be denied the right to purchase media in both those languages?"

My point was that if you can't read the language, you can't get at the contents of the book. In this case "knowledge of a language" can be swapped for "the correct equipment" but you're right, I should have worded it differently. The point was that in books, you have the content and the delivery in the same object, where as in games you don't. They are inherently different as a result.

 

[Sentenza]

Yeah because people must travel all the time and always bring all their games with them.
You don't speak your own language sounds kinda dumb.
I get this.
and not so on.

Are you playing dumb or what?
What if i have a digital collection and I can't play my purchases when I'm not doing it in my native country?
What if I'm a foreigner and I'm living in a country where I can barely speak the language for few months, so I'm more comfortable with my native one?
Or, the other way around, what if I want the English version because where I live (Italy) they sell just an horribly localized version which is almost unbearable for me?

Do I actually need to give you my reasons? Do I need your permission for some reason I'm having a hard time to grasp?

 

[shuri]

TucoBenedictoPacifico, can you give us a rundown of the games you have imported in the past years? I'm curious.

 

[Derrick01]

That's exactly what politic is supposed to be about. Deciding what's better for people and making laws about it.
And frankly it strikes me as a topic well more worth of being argued than deciding if children should learn Bible fairy tales as a legitimate scientific alternative to evolution.

Why can't both "issues" be stupid and a waste of their time, which is actually what I think. Obama's not going to waste his time on something so small as this, yet if he did ban it he would catch even more flak about being anti-business. There's soooo little gain for him and so much potential grief to catch by listening to this.

 

[Sentenza]

TucoBenedictoPacifico, can you give us a rundown of the games you have imported in the past years? I'm curious.

Almost half of my purchases, actually, but that's not a big issue for me as I play mostly on PC and region locking is a very rare thing there.

 

[Fezzan]

Are you playing dumb or what?
What if i have a digital collection and I can't play my purchases when I'm not doing it in my native country?
What if I'm a foreigner and I'm living in a country where I can barely speak the language for few months, so I'm more comfortable with my native one?
Or, the other way around, what if I want the English version because where I live (Italy) they sell just an horribly localized version which is almost unbearable for me?

Do I actually need to give you my reasons? Do I need your permission for some reason I'm having a hard time to grasp?

I don't know why you would be playing them somewhere else unless you moved.
If you move you should probably learn the lingo.
I don't get what you're saying, Italian versions suck?

Yes you do need to give reasons, it's not really much to ask for.

 

[Dunan]

But books are region locked - you can't change the language of a book. You're getting confused because with games you have the "player" and the "game". With books they are one and the same. The book is both the means and the content. The government has no right to stop you buying a region locked game, but that doesn't mean you have the means to use it on your hardware.

I'm not "confused". The hardware and the software combine to produce the content, and whether the region information is in the hardware, the software, or both is irrelevant.

Today there are no books that are self-aware of their physical location, but in the age of the Kindle and digital books, there soon will be. Feel free to adjust the analogy so that the Russian publisher takes your money for an e-book, but your e-book reader sees your IP location and refuses to open the book.

Or, to put it another way, you ask why a game that you've bought shouldn't be playable on your Wii that you bought somewhere else. Is the same true if you buy a PC game that your hardware can't handle?

This is a bad comparison. There's nothing preventing people from buying a higher-spec PC, or upgrading their CPUs and graphics cards to play the latest stuff. You never have to have two Windows XP computers, or two Mac OX 10.6 computers, or whatever, just to run two different games on the same OS.

The former may be an artificial intervention but the idea of your rights being violated by your not being able to play a game on a console that it doesn't work on isn't really affected by whether that inability to play was constructed as such or not. You have the right to use the software - you just don't have the capability to use it in the way you probably want.

Is your "solution" for customers to purchase multiple units of the same console so that they can access all regions?

Even that isn't a full solution, because these days companies are using IP geolocation to base your rights on your current physical location. The PSN requires that your account region, credit card billing address, and current physical location to all match when using a credit card to add funds to your PSN wallet. The workaround is to buy PSN cards from your "home" region and then carry them with you to your "away" region when trying to play "home" games while abroad. That's a ridiculous kludge, and there's nothing stopping producers from doing IP checks every time you load a game. Surely someone will try it in a future generation. (Doesn't Steam do it already?)

You mean you can only buy it where you live?
Yeah this is a total abuse.

You've never wanted to buy something that was made available to other people but not to you, because of where you live? What if "regions" were as small as your hometown, and the next town over got various content that the publisher decided not to offer the people in your neighborhood?

 

[Sentenza]

Obama's not going to waste his time on something so small

I don't care about what "OBAMA" is going to do.
You don't appeal to the government so OBAMA CAN DO THINGS. You appeal to the government so they can put someone to work on a given issue.

 

[Fezzan]

I'm not "confused". The hardware and the software combine to produce the content, and whether the region information is in the hardware, the software, or both is irrelevant.

Today there are no books that are self-aware of their physical location, but in the age of the Kindle and digital books, there soon will be. Feel free to adjust the analogy so that the Russian publisher takes your money for an e-book, but your e-book reader sees your IP location and refuses to open the book.



This is a bad comparison. There's nothing preventing people from buying a higher-spec PC, or upgrading their CPUs and graphics cards to play the latest stuff. You never have to have two Windows XP computers, or two Mac OX 10.6 computers, or whatever, just to run two different games on the same OS.



Is your "solution" for customers to purchase multiple units of the same console so that they can access all regions?

Even that isn't a full solution, because these days companies are using IP geolocation to base your rights on your current physical location. The PSN requires that your account region, credit card billing address, and current physical location to all match when using a credit card to add funds to your PSN wallet. The workaround is to buy PSN cards from your "home" region and then carry them with you to your "away" region when trying to play "home" games while abroad. That's a ridiculous kludge, and there's nothing stopping producers from doing IP checks every time you load a game. Surely someone will try it in a future generation. (Doesn't Steam do it already?)



You've never wanted to buy something that was made available to other people but not to you, because of where you live? What if "regions" were as small as your hometown, and the next town over got various content that the publisher decided not to offer the people in your neighborhood?

Yeah I agree that if you're doing this stuff shouldn't be region locked, but that isn't most games so I think region locking is fine for the most part.

 

[Sickboy007]

With Kirtsaeng v. John Wiley & Sons Inc still on the table, there is no way this makes any impact whatsoever.

 

[POWERSPHERE]

I reckon Obama has bigger problems

 

[Sentenza]

there is no way this makes an impact whatsoever.

I don't understand why this should be your concern, right now.
You don't sign a petition just to join the winning team, you sign it to make someone aware of what you want and then you wait for the outcome.

And I'm not referring to this petition specifically, that's the general idea.

 

[Dunan]

I know it's not. I didn't make the metaphor. He said...

"If my wife is (say) Italian and I'm American, and we want to raise an English-Italian bilingual child, why should we be denied the right to purchase media in both those languages?"

My point was that if you can't read the language, you can't get at the contents of the book. In this case "knowledge of a language" can be swapped for "the correct equipment" but you're right, I should have worded it differently. The point was that in books, you have the content and the delivery in the same object, where as in games you don't. They are inherently different as a result.

Looks like we cross-posted. Let me address this point also.

You say, "if you can't read the language, you can't get at the contents of the book". Sure, but I'm talking about people who can read the language.

With books, the "hardware" is the user's own brain. So my brain operates using "OS Dunan", and "OS Dunan" is capable of running English-language software perfectly with no glitches, Japanese software about 97% perfect with a few minor hiccups here and there, can run German but with a low framerate, and can attempt Spanish, Italian, and Mandarin but will be almost unplayably slow and will crash a lot. I still like to try software in those last three from time to time, and am working on upgrading the CPU so that those three will run more smoothly.

But the publishers have decided that such a brain is illegal, and the only brains that people are allowed to have are ones that operate only in the majority language of the place where we reside. Alternatively, we can import our home-country brains when we travel, but have to buy a second brain to access that content and can't integrate all our knowledge into one device. (This analogy is getting stretched now.)

I can read books in multiple languages, enjoy doing so, and am happy to pay book publishers for their work no matter where in the world it comes from. Why do game publishers deny my right to do this?

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

I could see Index Corp. releasing P4AA under a couple of scenarios if this were to come to pass:
1. Release it at a much later date in the US with dual language
2. Release it across both regions simultaneously with no dual language
3. Dual language release at Japanese MSRP
4. Dual language release at US MSRP
5. Don't bother releasing it in the US at all because doing either 3. or 4. are terrible business decisions

 

[KiteGr]

This is only for Americans, yet the people (gamers) who suffer the most from region locking are Europeans...

I somehow feel American today, so I'll create an account and sign it.
Lets hope Obama doesn't send me any spam.

 

[gutter_trash]

hugs PS3

 

[JustAnotherOtaku]

Why is region-locking such a big deal?

There are those of us who enjoy games that never leave Japan. Having them locked so that they are only playable on a Japanese system means we have to either buy more hardware or mod our consoles. I would much rather have just bought one 360, one Wii, one 3DS and not be saving for another Wii U as well. It's really not that hard to understand, even if it doesn't affect you personally.

 

[Pociask]

Signed the petition. Incredulous that people on Neogaf are defending region locking. It has no useful purpose. It just keeps people from playing games they want to play, after having to spend a great deal of personal effort that the producing company itself refuses to do.

Also, regarding a statement about corporations being within their rights to do so - corporations don't have rights. Individuals have rights, because as stated in the US constitution, they are born with them, inalienable. Corporations on the other hand, are legal creations of the state. They have exactly the rights that the state says they do. Based upon the deal offered by the state, individuals are free to incorporate or not incorporate (or for already existing corporations, if the deal changes, to continue reaping the benefits of limited liability, or not).

To the extent the Supreme Court has recently stated otherwise, it was a party line split decision vote, and will hopefully soon be overturned.

 

[ActStriker]

Signed the petition earlier this morning.

 

[Derrick01]

I don't care about what "OBAMA" is going to do.
You don't appeal to the government so OBAMA CAN DO THINGS. You appeal to the government so they can put someone to work on a given issue.

Well this is who the petition is going to. Whether he personally even sees it or not it's his name that's on the line when something does or doesn't happen. His people are not going to let him take another anti-business hit for something so small and pointless as this.

 

[jon bones]

glad there are no serious issues we can be bothered to ask our elected officials to look into

 

[Vinnk]

Awesome idea! Even if just to raise awareness. I'll talk about it in next weeks FamicomDojo podcast.

 

[jimmypython]

signed~~~

 

[Tain]

glad there are no serious issues we can be bothered to ask our elected officials to look into

it's a good thing people like you are around to sarcastically guide others into doing The Right Things

 

[Sickboy007]

I don't understand why this should be your concern, right now.
You don't sign a petition just to join the winning team, you sign it to make someone aware of what you want and then you wait for the outcome.

And I'm not referring to this petition specifically, that's the general idea.

What I'm saying is that the SCOTUS is about to deliberate on a legal case that is very much integral to this issue. This is where the attention should be. Without knowing how it turns out, a petition to the government is pretty much pointless.

 

[SovanJedi]

Welp, I signed. Even though I'm from the UK, I'd hope this spreads out to the rest of the world too.

Also, good to see we've got Derrick's eternally optimistic support for all this again. -_-

 

[Grimsen]

That ban would only affect products sold in North America, so it wouldn't change what everyone here is looking for, which is region-free Japanese games.

I'm not sure it would be such a great thing for US game developers either. I'm far from an expert on these things, but isn't region locking there in the first place to ensure games are sold only in their intended market?

For example, let's say a US game dev/publisher strikes a deal with an American licensee of a European IP, for a North American release only.

The game is a smash hit, and gets exported like crazy in Europe by fans, because on their end, the game based ont that IP that they have access to is Japanese-developped and utter shit.

Since the US publisher didn't take the appropriate measures to limit their game to NA only, and are affecting the sales of a product in another market, wouldn't they be open to legal troubles?

I mean, that legislation would be all fine and dandy until game companies start closing because of stupid lawsuits.