Aztechnology
Member
Not enough.
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White people must ask themselves "what am I *doing* to combat racism?"
- Thread starter Lime
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Hmm not sure if I agree that any of those suggestions in that OP is radical in anyway. Being inclusive, seeking out marginilized voices to understand their experiences, and being intolerant of intolerance is hardly a radical thing. That literally sounds like the bare minimum and something I would expect of myself and anyone else who's anti-discrimination. It's not like you're being asked as an individual to go out and start organizing and stage protests with your local anti racism chapter. We just to be honest and admit that this shit isn't going to be easy and that these are things were gonna have to do for the rest of our lives.
Count Dookkake
Member
My first response to you isn't predicated on the context of your statement. In fact, minus the first bit, your post functions fully on its own.
Asking whether or not you fight for other deserving causes is not done to invalidate your cause (duh, racism is bad/stupid and needs to be addressed), but rather to highlight the iffy logic behind this thread's premise. Obviously you consider yourself to be good and I am sure you don't have enough time in the day to champion every underdog. And that is ok; neither do I.
It's even ok if you continue to misread me because I get it; you are tired, angry, and sad.
wesleyshark
Banned
What a twist lol
Frozenprince
Banned
This threads logic is not iffy. It's literally "it's not people of colors job to fight against systemic inequality alone".
Whatever I'm so beyond done with this crap.
You do realize this isn't a one and done battle right? It is perfectly respectable for a transperson to ask cispeople if they're doing enough, jews asking non-jews, etc. I can just as easily call out an anti-semitic as I can a transphobe as I can a racist. My voice has range.
I don't get how this thread is doing that though. I don't see anyone but you turning this into a zero sum game
Oppo
Member
no you're not. you're back at it over and over.
i'm not going to chase down your "countless" posts proving everyone wrong but i'll read something if you care to link it.
but honestly you just sound like you want to vent.
for my part i agree with needing to do more than pay lip service. disagreed with "silence is complicity". i hate that notion. there are many ways to fight inequality.
Messofanego
Banned
The most difficult part is going to be the first part. Start with your family (for example if they voted for Trump), which is like a boss battle where it doesn't feel like you can win. If you can make them empathise with the struggles of minorities of all forms, you deserve congratulations because it's not going to be an easy road to travel but making your family less hateful is worth it in the end.
If you can convert them to becoming anti-racist, the rest is easier with colleagues, friends, and strangers.
If you can convert them to becoming anti-racist, the rest is easier with colleagues, friends, and strangers.
Count Dookkake
Member
Thanks. I appreciate this.
Again you ignore my opening statement that I am active against racism. And now you ignore my later clarification that this activity is not from behind a keyboard. I am giving time, exposing myself to unnecessary risk (for a privileged dude), and raising money for the cause. And no, I'm not looking for a pat on the head. I just want to be read fairly.
You are also ignoring that privilege is not just about race, which is easy to do when you are privileged in other ways. It's textbook.
Anyway, I suspect that the misreading isn't going to stop, so I bid you good day, sir.
Monocle
Member
I'm all for those things you mentioned, and I agree that they should be the bare minimum for anyone who presumes to call themselves an ally. Social change begins on the grassroots level, with the way each of us conducts ourselves in our daily life.
When I mentioned the radical advocate's mindset, I meant the state of being fired up and proactive about fighting racism. That's a desirable thing, but it can't be expected of everyone. People shouldn't congratulate themselves for passively condemning racism in the privacy of their own minds, but neither should well meaning privileged people be rejected as allies if they don't make serious personal sacrifices on the behalf of minorities. It's the right thing to do, and yet... I suppose what I meant before was that not enough is better than nothing.
dragonfart28
Banned
The most practical way to do this in your every day life is with a silver tongue and a smile.
I feel that's reasonable. But those same people best not pump the breaks on those that are fired up, water down, excuse bigotry or defend racists. Which is where I see the friction coming from those generally on the same page on these matters.
It's not expected of everyone, it's expected of those who consider themselves anti-racist and an ally. I mean I don't expect an ally to wake up in the morning and be fired up ready to kick some racism in the ass after their cup of coffee. I don't think the thread is even expecting that or asking for it. I do expect however for an ally to be somewhat proactive at least in their own social sphere. All those points mentioned is something I can imagine a person doing with out even stepping out of their social sphere. I don't think you're going way out on a limb there. That's just how I see it though.
But yeah allyship is always gonna be a constant work in progress. I understand this and I'm hard on myself as an ally of other causes. I rather have an imperfect ally who's well meaning and willing to learnon the side of my cause than not an ally at all. I thought the point of the thread was to demonstrate how can you improve as an ally and not "you're not ally unless you're doing this".
1- Not being racist.
2- Make your children not be racist.
3- Repeat for decades
4- Profit
People want to eradicate racism in 5 years, but it is in fact a longer process of education of the society as a whole. Screaming into people's ears won't solve the problem. Teach your kids to not be racist, and in time, society will eradicate racism. We will not eradicate it in our lifetimes most probably.
2- Make your children not be racist.
3- Repeat for decades
4- Profit
People want to eradicate racism in 5 years, but it is in fact a longer process of education of the society as a whole. Screaming into people's ears won't solve the problem. Teach your kids to not be racist, and in time, society will eradicate racism. We will not eradicate it in our lifetimes most probably.
Always-honest
Banned
Well, first of all, don't tolerate racism around you. All people should do that in every country.
I'm a soccer coach for 8 year olds and any racists remarks during the training session means you can get the fuck out. No more training that day. And you'll have to apologize and you will get lectured by me.
Same at home. My son isn't racist in any way (he really treats everyone the same, the way it should be imo). But some of his friend's have (mildly ignorant) racist parents. And their kids copy some of those loosely racist remarks that their parents mumble at the TV sometimes. I won't tolerate any of that shit in our house.
And let's not forget the discussions with family members and friends. Especially about Black Pete of course..... It's that time of year again.
Don't like the term "whites" by the way.
I'm a soccer coach for 8 year olds and any racists remarks during the training session means you can get the fuck out. No more training that day. And you'll have to apologize and you will get lectured by me.
Same at home. My son isn't racist in any way (he really treats everyone the same, the way it should be imo). But some of his friend's have (mildly ignorant) racist parents. And their kids copy some of those loosely racist remarks that their parents mumble at the TV sometimes. I won't tolerate any of that shit in our house.
And let's not forget the discussions with family members and friends. Especially about Black Pete of course..... It's that time of year again.
Don't like the term "whites" by the way.
Oppo
Member
Is that how you see the article in the OP? it goes quite a bit further than what you describe.
I never really did like Seinfeld.
I'm focusing on the bullets in the article which it ultimately boils things down to.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
I call out racism when I see it and try to explain whats wrong with peoples thinking. I can't say it's been very effective. Doubly so after people started thinking the right to have certain racist views was decided in a vote.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
Why are you doing this in this thread?
Honestly, if you think this is silly, why even post here?
I had some success, but not in a single discussion. I explained alternate viewpoints/situation again and again everytime the topic comes up. At the very least, peole became more honest about what bothered them without pretending it was "right".
What i've found is utterly useless is bringing up statistics. If they don't confirm a pre existing bias, everyone ignores/dismisses them.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Yeah, I just get blank looks and "Well thats what they tell you but..." and then a scaremongering, exaggerated article from the express or the mail is bought up. When I say those articles are either bullshit cherry picking or heavily exaggerated and not to trust them they say a newspaper wouldn't just print lies. Once people make up their mind it's very hard to persuade them otherwise.
Doomshroom
Member
I married a hot asian woman #donemypart
Messofanego
Banned
Got the upper hand on Slayven there.
IrishNinja
Member
damn, kinda wonder if this should've stayed a shorter thread, seeing some of the quality posts
faulty "if you don't stand for one, you can't stand for any" type logic, missed with a healthy dose of whataboutism
also complete disregard for intersectionality by pretending fighting racism doesn't overlap/benefit a number of these groups, but hey, that's textbook privilege for you.
precisely
i hear you, i lean towards #mayoboyz these days myself
that's a shame, because historically speaking, it's dead on
maybe you should've kept reading
faulty "if you don't stand for one, you can't stand for any" type logic, missed with a healthy dose of whataboutism
also complete disregard for intersectionality by pretending fighting racism doesn't overlap/benefit a number of these groups, but hey, that's textbook privilege for you.
precisely
i hear you, i lean towards #mayoboyz these days myself
that's a shame, because historically speaking, it's dead on
maybe you should've kept reading
Escape Goat
Member
I watch the Madea movies. What more can a man do?
IrishNinja
Member
damn, when it's "Vox says calling a racist a racist doesn't make them less racist, so be nice" ya'll got so very much to say
here, ya'll got jokes
here, ya'll got jokes
One thread is giving white people reason to go out there and make change
One thread is giving white people an excuse to sit on their asses and do nothing
Crayon
Member
call_kotaku
Member
Since there's a whole thing going around about doing what's morally correct vs doing what's strategically sensible, maybe the strategy going forward should be finding more ways to reward white people so they can feel positive about initiating social progress. Like gamify the whole thing because it's the only mechanism that might work.
The difference between voting for Obama vs voting against Trump is that doing something positive for minorities while also helping yourself feels good, but voting purely to stop racism feels like a chore when you aren't even excited for who you're voting for. Making further appeals just feels like guilt tripping at this point, and I feel like if even people on the forum can defend oppressed peoples as hard as they do for preorder bonuses or console wars we'd be much better off even if it's for totally the wrong reasons.
No. Go out and do good in the world. There's no tangible "incentive" you can offer and none is needed anyway.
And that means more than lecturing a message board or sharing memes or think pieces from bloggers on Facebook or Twitter or telling grandpa Chinamen isn't the preferred nomenclature.
Actively do something in the world.
That's how to bring about change for any problem.
Frozenprince
Banned
People don't post in threads about good articles that they agree with. It's true on Gaming side, and it's true on Off-Topic.
I think this article is dead-on. If you're a white person and you claim to care about fighting racism, you should be actively doing things to push back against it. I'm glad it points out various strategies people can apply in their own lives.
If we all agree on that, what's there to discuss? We read the article, nod our heads, and go back to our lives, hopefully as better people than we were before. Similarly, if a thread is about something really terrible that everyone agrees is terrible, there's also not a lot to discuss.
The threads that blow up are the ones that create some kind of controversy, where people aren't on the same page about things. Then they go on and on because people are arguing.
It sucks, because it means that the items that get the most exposure on this board aren't the most intelligent, accurate, enlightening ones, but the ones that divide people the most bitterly for one reason or another. But I think that's just the natural outcome of a message board sorted by newest post.
Crayon
Member
Okay that's a good point.
Atom Heart Mother
Banned
not watching them is doing more of a part
IrishNinja
Member
given that white supremacy is the default & dudes that look like myself benefit heavily from it (despite all the "my family never owned slaves!! stuff), does it not logically flow that we should bear more responsibility in doing away with it than, say, those actively being oppressed by such?
others here said they don't like the white silence = violence notion. but the benefit of the doubt given by so many of us every time a POC is killed by police - doesn't matter if its an illegal chokehold on tape, didn't he have priors? why didn't he submit faster? etc - is not coincidentally the same benefit of the doubt we so often deny minorities, which at best maintains indifference, and at worst directly enables these very incidents.
i get to say all this from a safe distance, cause i get angry & but don't live that fear. what about that equation tells you my side ought not do the heavy lifting?
Subpar Scrub
Banned
I don't engage in racist jokes or stories I hear being told, I shut down racist ideas or rhetoric from family or friends (whether intentional or not) when possible and I try to listen to what minority groups around me are saying and experiencing. I also try to treat everyone equally regardless of colour, religious or cultural beliefs.
I'm sure there's more I could do, but I feel as though I'm doing okay. Not American, btw.
Who said this?
I'm sure there's more I could do, but I feel as though I'm doing okay. Not American, btw.
Who said this?
At this point? I think only white people are able to penetrate the hatred. PoC have been doing it for decades and here we are... with Trump as president.
Had anyone actually made that point?
Zelenogorsk
Banned
I've spent a lot of time trying to convince my Trump supporting roommate that institutional racism is real and that black lives matter isn't a hate group. He's still a libertarian "bootstraps" fucking retard but i've at least gotten him to realize that the 1950's were only a "golden era" for straight white christian males, so that's something.
My political involvement is kind of in its infancy and i'll admit that even as close as six months ago i would have been the person that said "don't get mad at me, i vote Democrat, what else am i supposed to do" but luckily i'm coming to realize that it's just not enough. Even just understanding white priviledge and listening to minorities talk about their experiences was kind of a watershed moment for how i viewed the USA and my elevated position in society compared to many others (i'm a straight white male if you couldn't guess).
I'll do my best to actually get out there in future instead of just writing clever tweets and convincing myself shit like that changes anything.
My political involvement is kind of in its infancy and i'll admit that even as close as six months ago i would have been the person that said "don't get mad at me, i vote Democrat, what else am i supposed to do" but luckily i'm coming to realize that it's just not enough. Even just understanding white priviledge and listening to minorities talk about their experiences was kind of a watershed moment for how i viewed the USA and my elevated position in society compared to many others (i'm a straight white male if you couldn't guess).
I'll do my best to actually get out there in future instead of just writing clever tweets and convincing myself shit like that changes anything.
I've watched Wire multiple times, but as the article says that's not enough. So I've been calling out few people on their racist remarks that I've heard at my workplace. Not the older people that much though. I don't think they would listen to me much on these issues, but I've tried to affect people younger than me.
Also had some discussions about transgender issues with friends, I'm no expert on that field. But honestly, Gaf has tought me something. And I've been trying to spread that understanding further, that I have personally gained through here.
So thanks Gaf, some people here are doing good work in educating people and spreading the love.
You could sway away from using the word retard.
Also had some discussions about transgender issues with friends, I'm no expert on that field. But honestly, Gaf has tought me something. And I've been trying to spread that understanding further, that I have personally gained through here.
So thanks Gaf, some people here are doing good work in educating people and spreading the love.
You could sway away from using the word retard.
Obviously.
In the context of the election though, talking and challenging views on these topics is infintely more effective when it comes from people close to them. Especially with the kind of people that don't inform themselves beyond headlines.
They are much more likely to listen to a friend or family member than some dude that's lecturing them about how racist/insensitive they are.
Zelenogorsk
Banned
Yeah sorry about that. Old habits die hard and for the past few years it's been my go to description of Libertarians.
Count Dookkake
Member
I am against those bogus complaints in your first sentence and think the position presented in the OP exemplifies them.
As for your second sentence, I wouldn't pretend anything of the sort. That's not a claim with which I disagree.
IrishNinja
Member
hear, hear - it's time for blacks to step it up defending themselves & building business, what have they got to lose?
you're the one who brought those issues up, though - and used them to dismiss the thesis statement of the thread. and if you don't disagree about overlap/intersectionality, then why ask that question at all?
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Just be good to other people regardless of what they look like.
It really is only that simple.
It really is only that simple.
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