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For those who say batman.... How many time has joker escaped? =3
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Who's the more effective hero: Batman or The Punisher?
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Spike Spiegel
Member
It's not the Batman's fault that Gotham's criminally insane keep escaping to commit more increasingly horrific crimes...
The caveat of course is that Batman would not be nearly as popular as he is today without a stable of recurring villains to build the mythology that surrounds him, as with all popular superheroes.
it's the writers'.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
Punisher is a floater though, Bats has gotham, Punisher goes wherever the trail leads.
Manmademan
Member
The Punisher is secretly liked by the police force, and civilians think he's awesome but scary. Also the mob is constantly shitting his pants about him. In the MAX series, theres a scene wehre they mention they had to lay lo for a couple of years since the last massacre.
The Punisher has become such a lethal force that even S.H.I.E.L.D'S Nic Fury do deals with him for insane suicide missions they dont want to risk doing in exchange of access to computer databases of the fbi/etc/etc.
I must say that the 'Punisher is Batman-rich' thing is not true, especially since the early '00. He has lost most of his warehouses, his money, Microchip is dead so he can't hack him out cash, and so on. He still has some money stacked but its more of a day to day operation now.
So yeah, using the term "hero" with the Punisher is a bit of a stretch, but you know what I mean.
VS.
Both costumed vigilantes have tragic backstories in which their respective families are slain by mobsters and they vow revenge. Both vigilantes employ the use of fear and subterfuge to see criminal elements destroy themselves. Both vigilantes have a massive war chest (the Punisher has the collected funds of uncounted dead drug lords...his spending power is not to be underestimated), with a varied and powerful arsenal. But, both vigilantes have different philosophies when it comes to dealing with the criminal element.
The primary difference, as I see it, is that Bats prefers the non-lethal takedown, while Punisher is more than happy with a deadly outcome - that's his goal, in fact. Now, this isn't another "who would beat who?" argument, so much as it is a discussion of each vigilante's respective methods, and which are more effective in the long run.
Who do you think has the greater impact on crime?
BATMAN, all this crap about criminals escaping to kill again is a failure of the justice system.
ihearthawthats
Banned
so punisher can deal with crime in multiple cities while batman can barely manage gotham?
you could say that batman relying on the broken justice system is a downfall and his own fault. punisher takes matters into his own hands. with batman's enormous amounts of wealth and prep time, you'd think he'd be able to come up with a better justice system?
GrandHarrier
Member
Batman has helped to stop much bigger shit than Punisher has ever dealt with, or could even pretend to hope to deal with. Punisher bitches out and doesn't even kill Kingpin.
Batman created Brother Eye. And directly responible for the death of Opherus and the torture of Spoiler.
revolverjgw
Member
Batman because of how he's written, mingling with superheroes and supervillains and shit when he has no business doing so. Punisher would get way more shit done IRL and in reasonable stories though.
Batman is not in charge of Arkham Asylum though. He catches the Joker, hands him over and he's in the hands of Gotham Justice then.
I'll give you that Gotham sucks at keeping prisoners in prison though, but can't really fault Batman for that can we?
Punisher might be more definitive because he kills rather then captures, but is it for him to judge people to death? Maybe not so much.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
and weve been tortured by having to deal with her as robin and as batgirl. if that gives bats an L, then he deserves it.
Batman wouldn't exist without Daddy's money. He leads a pampered life in an expensive mansion; and would be nothing without papa.
The Punisher sleeps in a van, or a shitty bed in a dusty warehouse. He's always on the run because the mob wants him dead, the authorities wants him stop, and capes want him controlled. His training and skills are all self-made (..well and his army training)
The Punisher sleeps in a van, or a shitty bed in a dusty warehouse. He's always on the run because the mob wants him dead, the authorities wants him stop, and capes want him controlled. His training and skills are all self-made (..well and his army training)
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
he hasnt had a "father" for a long time. and all of the punishers ailments are self inflicted.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Seriously.
He's as much a hero as psycho killer Nate Drake. I mean that dude is a completely disconnected violent sociopath. And he surrounds himself with enablers. People with a propensity for death nearly as visceral as his.
I could be talking about either of them at this point.
This has been both an affirmation of the Punisher's status as wanton violence man, and an indictment of standard videogame design practices. Always going for the easy, instead of challenging themselves.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
No, but when he does they're Kevlar.
Mr. Poolman
Member
And killed, raped and eated a lot of people.
Batman is somewhat responsible for Joker's ruining of lives.
While morally I don't agree with him, Punisher is a more reliable vigilante and most likely to clean up a bad city.
ChocolateCupcakes
Member
The Punisher obviously. A big theme about the Batman comics is about how ineffective he is because all the villians he puts in jail just comes back 10 times worse.
TheRagnCajun
Member
I don't see how that's batman's fault.
Tallshortman
Member
Well both are equally ineffective because they require crime to be relevant so there will always be crime in their universes. Maybe the Punisher in PunisherMAX is sort of effective.
revolverjgw
Member
It might not be his fault, but the Punisher would be able to do Gotham a uniquely great service by blowing his head off and sparing the cities hundreds if not thousands of serious crime capers and needless deaths.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Honestly... I've always secretly worried about people who identify with that sort of character. I read them like tragedies written over decades by hundreds of different writers. That's the only time I've ever liked Punisher. Like you're reading a very effective slow motion trainwreck. Taking out tens of thousands in the process.
Frank Castle done snapped. Punisher is who he be. Anything he views as wrong is punishable by death, any means necessary to get them.
A very effective trainwreck.
Batman is just a different kind of trainwreck. Less effective, but grounded somewhere closer to as sane as a guy dressed as a bat can be.
Frank Castle done snapped. Punisher is who he be. Anything he views as wrong is punishable by death, any means necessary to get them.
A very effective trainwreck.
Batman is just a different kind of trainwreck. Less effective, but grounded somewhere closer to as sane as a guy dressed as a bat can be.
quickwhips
Member
Punisher or even better would be Punisher 2099....
A man with the intelect and wealth of Bruce Wayne surely should be able to help improve the security of the Gotham prisons, that is if he is really so concerned about the security of its people, Batman is like those parents who can't educate their children and when they can't stand them anymore hire a nanny or hope that their grandmothers help them instead of being proactive
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
so you would rather have a mass murderer on the streets? whos to say that he wouldnt decide that whatever you happen to be into is wrong and comes knocking at your door with some sort of torture device. the man is grossly unstable. as bad as shit gets in gotham, it would get so much worse with frank around.
someone needs to post the pic of 2099. i die laughing every time i see it.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Joker is killed, how many more escape. The answer is Punisher. For a hero who uses fear and intimidation once you've taken Batman's best shot what's stopping you from crime again? Being caught? Whooptie shit.
Batman's schtick is entirely useless once he catches you. It may work for low level criminals but for anyone with ambition Batman is worthless.
revolverjgw
Member
I'd actually love it if a guy as effective and efficient as the Punisher moseyed on down to, say, Mexico and started killing cartel members by the dozens. He doesn't run around killing pot smokers or wife beaters, he does the serious shit, kills only scumbag menaces, and his record is rather impeccable. He has ways of pulling this off without making mistakes, he's not Batman but he's pretty prepared and informed himself.
edit- I haven't actually read any Punisher comics in a few years, so maybe this has changed. But during the many years I read his books, I can say I'd love to have a guy like that behind the scenes
See, I'm inclined to say the Punisher, but think about it - all he does is encourage escalation. It's like a disease; once you clean things up, the only survivors are the toughest and wiliest. And they grow to take the place of the weaker criminals. The Punisher can kill as many mobsters as he wants, but there will always be more, and the next guy is going to be bringing more guns and more men and more to the table.
Batman doesn't really stop criminals, but he does stop crime. Like, THIS. He becomes a fixation - whenever the Joker is doing whatever to kill Batman he's NOT out there murdering children. He takes the entire thing on himself.
So Punisher stops more criminals, sure, but Batman is far more effective at keeping Gotham safe from the criminals there.
Batman doesn't really stop criminals, but he does stop crime. Like, THIS. He becomes a fixation - whenever the Joker is doing whatever to kill Batman he's NOT out there murdering children. He takes the entire thing on himself.
So Punisher stops more criminals, sure, but Batman is far more effective at keeping Gotham safe from the criminals there.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
heavy armaments are his way of pulling this off. i dont think frank wants a part of the cartels as they are, unless its his last run.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
And this is why Batman's villains are in a league above him. And why they will inevitably win. Or they would if this wasn't a freaking comic book.
Of All Trades
Member
We can blame Batman for not getting help from the JLA to upgrade Arkham, or at least do Bats a solid by having the Watchtower constantly monitoring Arkham for breakouts, or something. We can also blame Batman for constantly handing Joker over to the GCPD, rather than the feds/state/Checkmate for any number of crimes that cross into higher jurisdictions.
Punisher at least has the excuse that he doesn't like team-ups.
Palette Swap
Member
Neither. A mix of both could work, i.e. if the Punisher started taking down A list super villains. But I guess Marvel would eventually run out of bad guys.
What's more baffling with Batman is that his bad guys aren't eventually sentenced to death after they're arrested.
What's more baffling with Batman is that his bad guys aren't eventually sentenced to death after they're arrested.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Well Frank does have limits. Just one of those doesn't happen to be dirty cops. So a lot of Gotham PD would be mowed down.
Evolution_1ne
Banned
Thomas Jane
Deified Data
Banned
Gemüsepizza
Member
Batman. Criminals aren't just "criminals", they are human beings. They have a father and a mother, and many have a partner and kids and other relatives. You can't just pretend they will not be affected by the death of their father, son or brother. The Punisher does not simply "punish", he is causing an enourmous amount of sorrow by destroying lifes. And why does he think he can judge people? A small thug who guards a warehouse, who has his wife and kids waiting at home, who was born into poverty and never really had a chance - is he really evil? Does he deserve to die? And what if the Punisher kills completely innocent people? I mean he is one person, and even our justice system, with plenty of power and ressources, sometimes fails to make the right decision. How many times was he wrong? The Punisher does not make the world a better place, he is a dangerous psychopath who only brings death and sorrow. Batman on the other hand maybe isn't perfect, but he embodies values which people should and can aspire to, he is a role model.
quickwhips
Member
I don't see how a outfit determines how good he was at executing people in his home made prison.
Argh! Dem pouches!
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Which is why I always refer to the Punisher as a very long drawn out tragedy.Gemüsepizza;43341631 said:
He's never been someone to cheer for.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
One might argue that Frank Castle creates an atmosphere of open warfare, even invites it. Batman causes some freaks to imitate him, but generally, Batman's goal is to create fear. Make bad guys worry that he's everywhere at once lurking in the shadows. Tone down their activity even if they don't entirely stop it. Batman is also theoretically supposed to inspire citizens by knowing that a guardian angel type is out there and has their back.
The Punisher seems to turn things into turf battles and gun wars, with bad guys arming up in advance anticipating a Punisher strike. A problem of escalation? Punisher keeps deploying heavy weapons, bad guys focus on getting more bullets and guns themselves for protection. Thus ending up with more guns in circulation. Frank also doesn't seem to care, usually, about what anyone thinks of him, so he's not going to inspire many people. I don't think he'd make them feel safe. He's just a psychopath with machine guns as far as the public is concerned. That also doesn't inspire other heroes.
By contrast, Batman creates others like himself; both the bat family and closely associated crime fighters. Most of them follow his principle of non-lethal force. Most of them focus on helping people as much as "punishing" bad guys.
The nature of comics is that a never-ending threat is required to keep the stories ongoing, so no matter who you're talking about both "heroes" seem futile if you take things too literally.
Philosophically though, Batman is probably more effective than Castle in a wider variety of aspects. I wonder though: have there been many stories illustrating the bat family effect on actual normal crime in gotham city? The costumed freaks and super villians aren't really interested in like, mugging regular people, picking pockets, stealing cars, and home invasions.
The Punisher seems to turn things into turf battles and gun wars, with bad guys arming up in advance anticipating a Punisher strike. A problem of escalation? Punisher keeps deploying heavy weapons, bad guys focus on getting more bullets and guns themselves for protection. Thus ending up with more guns in circulation. Frank also doesn't seem to care, usually, about what anyone thinks of him, so he's not going to inspire many people. I don't think he'd make them feel safe. He's just a psychopath with machine guns as far as the public is concerned. That also doesn't inspire other heroes.
By contrast, Batman creates others like himself; both the bat family and closely associated crime fighters. Most of them follow his principle of non-lethal force. Most of them focus on helping people as much as "punishing" bad guys.
The nature of comics is that a never-ending threat is required to keep the stories ongoing, so no matter who you're talking about both "heroes" seem futile if you take things too literally.
Philosophically though, Batman is probably more effective than Castle in a wider variety of aspects. I wonder though: have there been many stories illustrating the bat family effect on actual normal crime in gotham city? The costumed freaks and super villians aren't really interested in like, mugging regular people, picking pockets, stealing cars, and home invasions.
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
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