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Why are Nintendo games uncopiable?

I'm sure every publisher would love a Mario and a Zelda in their stable.

Problem is Nintendo puts great effort into these games, to the point that they almost always get pushed back. Most publishers don't care that much even if the developer did.
 
Re Zelda: The difference is quality between a Zelda clone and a Zelda game proper is staggering and imo, that has to do with the level design. A dungeon in Zelda is almost always a masterclass in level design, not a single Zelda clone has even come close to that kind of mastery over the art of designing levels. Okami, which is the best of the Zelda clones, is pretty much a step or two below Zelda in this category.

Then you add the actual aesthetics and art of the series proper (timeless), the music etc.. and the nostalgia that comes with all that and it's not hard to see why other devs can't recreate that kind of experience.
 
Kathian said:
This started as a Zelda thread. But look, Zelda and Mario have never been even close to beaten. Zelda is basically a simple action game with all the beats of an RPG at a much faster rate. Mario is pretty much the basic foundation of any platformer.

Yet no one can come close. Zelda I shouldn't think is too difficult to copy or 'try on' but honestly whose come close? Meanwhile modern 3D platforming non-Mario is represented by Knack.

It just seems odd seeing the rest of the industry around this one standard bearer whilst Nintendo exists so far away on its own.
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It was done in a different way, but i do think Demon and Dark Souls games copy a bit of the mecanics of fighting from Zelda, area unlocks, and set in a Darker world. IMO, Souls games have surpass Zelda. Not saying its the same, but i found similarities.
 
It's really hard to capture that weird feeling that only Nintendo games provide. Not even Nintendo can reproduce it consistently.

Asking anyone else to make a game that feels like Nintendo's most carefully made games is asking a lot.
 
OrbitalBeard said:
Not that your statement is wholly accurate, mind you. Splatoon proves that Nintendo has not been surpassed by other developers, though it is true that a number of studios have caught up to Nintendo in recent years, quality-wise.

As an aside, I adore Souls games but I'm starting to see why the fans annoy those outside of their community. Zelda does not need to become like Dark Souls. Christ.
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I would definitely exclude Splatoon from my point - and look at how well the game sold considering the Wii U install base! But one game that's interesting isn't enough for me to jump back on the Nintendo wagon.

Over the top Souls "fans" irritate the life out of me as well. However, it's not being over the top to suggest Zelda definitely needs to take some cues from the series in terms of atmosphere and world building - don't be precious.
 
KJRS_1993 said:
I would definitely exclude Splatoon from my point - and look at how well the game sold considering the Wii U install base! But one game that's interesting isn't enough for me to jump back on the Nintendo wagon.

Over the top Souls "fans" irritate the life out of me as well. However, it's not being over the top to suggest Zelda definitely needs to take some cues from the series in terms of atmosphere and world building - don't be precious.
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Nah, I don't want a grimdark Zelda.
 
Cool Guy Sami said:
I'd argue Zelda was surpassed in its style of play a decade ago, and still hasn't caught up.
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There's barely any gameplay interactivity in SotC so I don't see what you're getting at, there's hardly a game to be found there for me. I don't care about experiences whose goal is to evoke emotions and place me in a certain state of mind, I rather play games like Zelda and MGS that constantly amaze when you mess around with its items and mechanics.

For example how you can slice a signpost in half in OoT, plus the added video-gamey charm of them magically repairing themselves. That's standard practice in games so far, but then if you do it to one that's near a pond, the cut off plank will actually float and move around on the water surface. Nintendo games are like little toy boxes full of mind-blowing surprises as you pick them up and start experimenting.
 
KJRS_1993 said:
However, it's not being over the top to suggest Zelda definitely needs to take some cues from the series in terms of atmosphere and world building - don't be precious.
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Agree to disagree. A Zelda game with the atmosphere of Dark Souls sound horrible. And Dark Souls III is one of my most anticipated games of 2016, so it certainly has nothing to do with how I feel about that franchise, as I adore it.

And I'm just fine being "precious", thank you very much. : )
 
Okami was the best Zelda game of that generation. Darksiders 2 was the best Zelda game of that generation. Nintendo has been copied and surpassed multiple times.


There are plenty of 2D platforrmers that can hold their own with Mario. There are less 3D platofrmers that can hang with Mario, but Nintendo has only made 6 Mario 3D platformers in the last 20 years so they aren't even producing a ton of content here.
 
Darksiders 1 (the one I played) doesn't hold a candle to the best 3d Zeldas imo.
But I'd also say that I prefer Okami to all Zelda games (haven't played Majora's Mask nor Skyward Sword).
 
How about this?

3ddothero_esrb_ps3.jpg
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smashballTaz said:
Also, there's Okami, which was basically Clover Studios beating Nintendo at Twilight Princess. Still not played it yet though..
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How do you know then?

I love Okami, but I think Twilight Princess is even better. And it certainly had more mainstream appeal; Okami didn't really feel like a copy.
 
lightchris said:
How do you know then?

I love Okami, but I think Twilight Princess is even better. And it certainly had more mainstream appeal; Okami didn't really feel like a copy.
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Yeah, Okami is a great game but it doesn't compare to any Zelda title, in my opinion. One of the reasons is that my biggest issues with 3D Zeldas (lack of difficulty, too much padding) are even more pronounced in Okami.
 
OrbitalBeard said:
Not that your statement is wholly accurate, mind you. Splatoon proves that Nintendo has not been surpassed by other developers, though it is true that a number of studios have caught up to Nintendo in recent years, quality-wise.

As an aside, I adore Souls games but I'm starting to see why the fans annoy those outside of their community. Zelda does not need to become like Dark Souls. Christ.
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I don't think Splatoon really proves anything, to be honest. I like the game, but when it was first shown, and to this day after putting dozens of hours into it, it still comes off as a cute little Steam indie game with a fun little gimmick except it was full price on a Nintendo system. It's hardly amazing. It's not even close to bad, and it's certainly well above average, but I mean... it's nothing incredible. It does NOT show Nintendo as being ahead of any other developer in my eyes.

As for Dark Souls and Zelda, I can see what he was saying. You mistook him saying world building and such to mean that Zelda had to be "dark and gritty," which has absolutely nothing to do with world building. Zelda worlds are tragically boring and simplistic. I think the series could benefit a lot from much more interesting worlds that have more thought put into them. They're built very much like a series of hurdles to jump over with no rhyme or reason to the world itself. You don't have to sacrifice one iota of gameplay or fun to remedy that, and it'd make the games SO much more interesting.

In fact, that's kind of one of the biggest things people love about Majora's Mask. While it was hardly a perfectly constructed world, everything felt much more important and more meaningful than anything in other Zelda games. At least in my opinion.
 
I thought Sonic was Sega's attempt to make a platforming character to rival Mario, and Crash Bandicoot was Sony's attempt to do the same thing.

Nintendo does this best, in part because they never lost focus on these franchises. They polish the hell out of their games, so even the occasional mediocre titles are still good quality games that don't damage the brand.
 
Nintendo's whole philosophy on making games and valuing franchises is noticeably different from most developers/publishers.

They are a business like any other business and exist to make money. But when you listen to Iwata or Miyamoto talk about games and the value they should have, it goes far beyond just pushing out whatever hype is going to make a shit ton of money in the short term. They want timeless franchises.

Also, they seem to hold video games themselves and the gameplay experiences only the medium can provide in a high regard instead of chasing Hollywood or Television style experiences.
 
smashballTaz said:
Little King's Story on the Wii had extremely similar Pikmin-esque mechanics. And it was AWESOME.
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I love LKS But it's really not a Pikmin clone, yeah you have a protagonist leading a horde behind him but that's literally where the similarities end.

I want the same mechanics and themes of Pikmin explored further by any developer really. I just need more!
 
ZombiePlatypus said:
What am I reading.

There's actual quality, art, and polish that back these games up. It's not just hollow hype.
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They are competent games with good elements. But after following the same formula for nearly two decades, they're nothing special. Heck, if you go back and look at OoT with a new perspective, you'll probably realize how much filler there is.

I hope they shake things up for the next big game in the series.
 
Xbob42 said:
I don't think Splatoon really proves anything, to be honest. I like the game, but when it was first shown, and to this day after putting dozens of hours into it, it still comes off as a cute little Steam indie game with a fun little gimmick except it was full price on a Nintendo system. It's hardly amazing. It's not even close to bad, and it's certainly well above average, but I mean... it's nothing incredible. It does NOT show Nintendo as being ahead of any other developer in my eyes.

As for Dark Souls and Zelda, I can see what he was saying. You mistook him saying world building and such to mean that Zelda had to be "dark and gritty," which has absolutely nothing to do with world building. Zelda worlds are tragically boring and simplistic. I think the series could benefit a lot from much more interesting worlds that have more thought put into them. They're built very much like a series of hurdles to jump over with no rhyme or reason to the world itself. You don't have to sacrifice one iota of gameplay or fun to remedy that, and it'd make the games SO much more interesting.

In fact, that's kind of one of the biggest things people love about Majora's Mask. While it was hardly a perfectly constructed world, everything felt much more important and more meaningful than anything in other Zelda games. At least in my opinion.
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Ahhh Xbob lol....always fun to read your ridiculous Splatoon opinions.

I never commented on his Dark Souls "world building" statement FYI....I was addressing his comment about atmosphere.
 
Xbob42 said:
As for Dark Souls and Zelda, I can see what he was saying. You mistook him saying world building and such to mean that Zelda had to be "dark and gritty," which has absolutely nothing to do with world building. Zelda worlds are tragically boring and simplistic. I think the series could benefit a lot from much more interesting worlds that have more thought put into them. They're built very much like a series of hurdles to jump over with no rhyme or reason to the world itself. You don't have to sacrifice one iota of gameplay or fun to remedy that, and it'd make the games SO much more interesting.
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Actually he said, "in terms of atmosphere and world building". What about the atmosphere of Dark Souls is not dark, grim, and/or gritty?

World-building is indeed a different matter and you're right that Zelda could stand an injection of a fresh approach. But should it be so obfuscated that people have to watch analytical videos on YouTube just to get story details straight? I would not be so thrilled about that. I'm okay with a couple things being obscure here and there for the hardcore to dig up and find, but it seems like people are still trying to make sense out of the Souls games' stories even today.
 
I've never liked the idea that Zelda has to look a certain way, all the way back to Wind Waker backlash, and I like pretty much every style they come with. I also feel like people who advocate for Souls so hard for Zelda are missing that there's a whole other 2/3rds of game in puzzles, items etc... but I don't think everyone saying it is asking for Zelda to be masocore, obtuse and 2edgy.

I'd already played Demon's Souls and loved it, but it wasn't until stumbling onto the great tree and then ash lake in Dark Souls that it hit me how much it reminded me of playing Zelda I & II as a kid... the instruction booklet artwork Link that my imagination ran with when I played those games as a kid.

Evil pig ganon and his moblins, cemetaries and ghosts, punishment for attacking NPC's, shadow Link, statues coming to life, precarious Iron Knuckle duels, discovery and mystery, high stakes and dire consequences, the intimidating screams of the boss monster sounds in the original NES Zelda labyrinths, getting your shield eaten and left feeling vulnerable, pulled into a wall and returned to the dungeon entrance by a scary hand, combat based on observing weaknesses and reacting to animation tells (that doesn't necessarily have to be brutal and set you back in such a defeating way), the feeling of inescapable doom in Majora's Mask, going to a literal Dark World in ALttP's Hyrule where everyone/thing is maligned and barren, princess Zelda's grimm fairy tale-esque enchanted slumber in Adventures of Link etc. All that stuff is part of the heart and soul too.
 
OrbitalBeard said:
Ahhh Xbob lol....always fun to read your ridiculous Splatoon opinions.

I never commented on his Dark Souls "world building" statement FYI
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I think my Splatoon opinion is totally reasonable. Especially at launch, before they started the content trickle. Sure, it was much more polished than an Indie game, but it played pretty darn similarly to how I'd expect one to play, and had similar balance issues. I still think most of the maps the game started with were straight up bad.

Lupin the Third said:
Actually he said, "in terms of atmosphere and world building". What about the atmosphere of Dark Souls is not dark, grim, and/or gritty?

World-building is indeed a different matter. But should it be so obfuscated that people have to watch analytical videos on YouTube just to get story details straight?
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Even with atmosphere, I think he was mostly referring to the fact that Dark Souls actually has it. I think despite a lot of its other shortcomings, Twilight Princess could have pretty decent atmosphere, and Wind Waker really got it down a lot of the time. Actually, as I type this and think about it, it seems the further you go back, the better the atmosphere, now I think about it. Ocarina of Time could be seriously moody, but also upbeat, and haunting, and any number of things. Skyward Sword on the other hand was mostly... eh.

And again, it doesn't need to copy Dark Souls' world building techniques 1:1, or even have things obfuscated, but it's really cool to have things in the world that you can just have deep dives and extended discussions about. I mean, how long did we talk about whether the tri-force was actually obtainable in Ocarina of Time? It wasn't even really that interesting a discussion, we were (and are!) just hungry for things to be much deeper than they actually are. I think that official Zelda timeline book proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
 
Rhanitan said:
Putting a key in a door or pulling levers are not puzzles. Their purpose is to block your path so that you are forced to go through more enemies. They aren't designed to make you think very hard about how you should be using them. There are only a couple of actual puzzles in dark souls like redirecting the boulder in sens fortress and equipping the abyss ring which are extremly simple and not the kind of stuff people play dark souls for.
The equipment in dark souls isn't comparable to equipment in zelda because they all serve the same function in the game even if the moveset is different. You can go through the whole game and see everything that any other player can by using your default equipment. Battle tactics are not puzzles either otherwise you could call every action game a puzzle game.
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Finding the graveguard mask is a puzzle. Getting to the Nightmare Frontier is a puzzle. Heck, finding a winning strategy for some bosses is a puzzle. They are games or problems designed to test ingenuity, which is the definition of a puzzle. If you want to refine your statement that Zelda has different puzzles than Souls games, that's fine, but your universal dismissal is off base.

You're doing the exact same thing with abilities. You want to define away anything that isn't an ability just like the one in Zelda. If you want to do that to say that the games are different, that's fine. They are different but there are structural similarities. But it is nonsense to say that items that one build can use that another cannot, which create very different ways of playing the game simply aren't abilities.

In general that's the problem with the claims of uncopiable that have been made in this thread. I may have missed it, but a description of the essential elements of these games seems to be missing whenever someone claims that they haven't been copied. As a result, they can keep retreating into "that's not it", "polish, or "Nintendo touch". It's pointless.

In my view they are uncopiable because the IP is so iconic. I think it is unavoidable that playing a Mario game is affected by the fact that he's Mario. You've got 30 years of him being embedded in popular culture to get past. That ain't going to happen. Certain gameplay elements from Nintendo games can be found across video games. Some do it better, some do it worse, but the gameplay mechanics are hardly unique.
 
Okami did Zelda pretty well. Heck, I think Twilight Princess had to at least have been a little inspired by Okami considering "game where you play as wolf and solve puzzles" isn't exactly a common type of game.
 
aadiboy said:
Okami did Zelda pretty well. Heck, I think Twilight Princess had to at least have been a little inspired by Okami considering "game where you play as wolf and solve puzzles" isn't exactly a common type of game.
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Doubtful. Twilight Princess and Okami were developed during the same period. In fact, if TP hadn't been moved to Wii, it would have released in late 2005, months before Okami's launch.
 
Ansatz said:
I get what you're saying here but the end result of developers trying to expand gaming has dumbed down game design.

Games that strive for scope have sacrificed hand-crafted content for copy/paste-y aspects and sometimes their level design is literally randomly generated. I dont see a point in playing through a level that an algorithm created. Open world games are also repetitive in nature, simply because the worlds are too big to fill with meaningful and interesting gameplay opportunities. To keep players engaged they implement various skinner box type elements with addictive qualities. I have yet to play a modern open world game that's fun because the very statement is a contradiction. The Witness acts as the perfect counter example, I mean it took them 7 years to fill that small amount of space with quality and varied gameplay, not to mention all the hidden layers of depth that were mindblowing to discover.

Although I understand the developer's intention, platforming in Assassin's Creed is automatic and brain dead. Imagine if they had actual platforming in the games and every time you fell down because you didn't time a jump correctly you had to start all over again, it would result in constant frustration and tedium due to the sheer scope of the game. None of the climbing or parkouring feels engaging and that's one of the reasons why the games are so incredibly off-putting to me.

I can go on but the point is those games have sacrificed qualities that are the reasons why I play video games, in order to achieve their "ambitious" goals. Nintendo games haven't "evolved" because that would result in compromises in terms of game design.
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Right, but let's not make generalizations. When I run into a GDC presentation about game design (eg. 1, 2), I often remember that I should never take anything for granted since the work behind a cohesive and functional game design that blends perfectly with the Lead Artist's vision is far from easy, especially when they also have to deal with various limitations such as world's rules, as I was saying. You mention Assassin's Creed's parkour, I could reply with Mirror's Edge. A lot of games get dumbed down for reasons beyond the difficulties of merging together more complex mechanics into one, flawless and fun gameplay. You know what I'm talking about: for example, they want to sell the games to a wider audience, that's Assassin's Creed's case. Nintendo don't do that, luckily for us. Other developers like to make life difficult but when they find the right balance, we get to play amazing games like Uncharted 2 or The Last of Us, Souls games, Red Dead Redemption, Halo 2, Resident Evil 4, Metal Gear Solid 3, The Witcher 3, Deus Ex.. you may like them or not but it's impossible to deny the value of these productions from gameplay to game and level design, character design, writing etc.
All these games aimed for something more and they succeeded. Obviously, the level of depth in The Witness will be unmatched compared to any of the games mentioned, but is that a fair comparison? The Witness does just one thing. That's why we have diversity in the industry, right? Devs with resources and small team. I think that if gaming was Nintendo-like today, I would've stop playing years ago because I want someone to try harder, even if they fail.
 
smashballTaz said:
Also, there's Okami, which was basically Clover Studios beating Nintendo at Twilight Princess. Still not played it yet though..
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Play Okami and then tell me how the pacing and dungeon design beat Nintendo at Twilight Princess.
Of course Okami has other interesting factors that make it interesting to play (the brush mechanics is imaginative and the graphics style is pleasant).
 
Kathian said:
This started as a Zelda thread. But look, Zelda and Mario have never been even close to beaten. Zelda is basically a simple action game with all the beats of an RPG at a much faster rate. Mario is pretty much the basic foundation of any platformer.

Yet no one can come close. Zelda I shouldn't think is too difficult to copy or 'try on' but honestly whose come close? Meanwhile modern 3D platforming non-Mario is represented by Knack.

It just seems odd seeing the rest of the industry around this one standard bearer whilst Nintendo exists so far away on its own.
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Okami is a better Zelda than Zelda. It's certainly a very good copy of the general formula, with its own twist.

Jak and Daxter 1 is as good as any 3D Mario except mayyybe Galaxy 1.
 
Yeah, I suspect all the Okami defenders, either didnt play any Zelda, or didnt play Okami. The game looks great, and it is a good game, but the dungeons are weak, the combat is boring, and the padding is just insane. But yeah, it looks good for sure.
 
I'm a huge Okami fan and in fact it's one of my favorite games of all time but nothing surpasses the quality and level of polish found in the Zelda games. The fact that they have been doing this for 30 years is simply amazing. Sure, there are games that don't really stand out like the DS games but overall Zelda is the most respected gaming franchise in history for a reason.
 
MikeyB said:
Finding the graveguard mask is a puzzle. Getting to the Nightmare Frontier is a puzzle. Heck, finding a winning strategy for some bosses is a puzzle. They are games or problems designed to test ingenuity, which is the definition of a puzzle. If you want to refine your statement that Zelda has different puzzles than Souls games, that's fine, but your universal dismissal is off base.

You're doing the exact same thing with abilities. You want to define away anything that isn't an ability just like the one in Zelda. If you want to do that to say that the games are different, that's fine. They are different but there are structural similarities. But it is nonsense to say that items that one build can use that another cannot, which create very different ways of playing the game simply aren't abilities.
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You seem too hung up on semantics and are ignoring the point of my post which is that dark souls and zelda's game design have completely different fundamental goals. Zelda does not need to catch up to dark souls or vice versa because they aren't made for the same purpose.

DSix said:
3D Dot Game Heroes was a better Zelda than Skyward Sword.
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I forgot about this game! Definitely one of my favourite Zelda clones.
 
Mozendo said:
I was the kid that got beat up in elementary school because of statements like these.
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But you were right!

Morfeo said:
Yeah, I suspect all the Okami defenders, either didnt play any Zelda, or didnt play Okami. The game looks great, and it is a good game, but the dungeons are weak, the combat is boring, and the padding is just insane. But yeah, it looks good for sure.
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Okami's combat boring? For fuck's sake. It basically was a lite Kamiya action game due to some crazy stuff you could do with brush and weapons. Yes, there weren't many challenging encounters and bosses, but you were given a lot of abilities to play with.
 
Rhanitan said:
You seem too hung up on semantics and are ignoring the point of my post which is that dark souls and zelda's game design have completely different fundamental goals. Zelda does not need to catch up to dark souls or vice versa because they aren't made for the same purpose.


I forgot about this game! Definitely one of my favourite Zelda clones.
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I'm hung up on the fact that you made a categorical statemeny that is clearly false and that the entire premise of this thread is stupid in the absence of identifying the qualities of Nintendo games that make them special.

I agree the games are different.
 
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