Crankshaft
Member
JRPG's on consoles have really dropped off the past couple of years. So I have to hand it to Namco for keeping them alive on consoles.
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Why aren't Tales games more popular?
- Thread starter HolyBaikal
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Sounds like people who played either Symphonia or Legendia or both and decided to assume that the series is nothing more than that story-wise. Tales of Rebirth, by far the Tales game with the most ham-fisted racism theme in its story, never came out here and people are still making these kinds of generalizations. Amazing. Don't really agree with Xillia being about Spirits being oppressed as it was presented as more of a natural resource problem. The spirits' view in Xillia is more of a "all humans are evil" trope than oppressed racial minority trope. Tales plots deal way more with the idea of running out of a natural resource and human nature than just outright racism. At least do some research before you paint the series with such a broad brush.
Tales games are some of the least grindy JRPGs I've ever played. Even in the earlier entries like Phantasia PS1 and Eternia. If you're grinding in a Tales game, you are doing something wrong.
Couldn't agree more about the wasted potential. Xillia being released in an incomplete form really drove this home for me, and I've been soured off of the series since Xillia 2's story took a crap on the first game's.
As for Zestiria, the impression from friends who imported is that the AI is terrible. Xillia and Xillia 2 had arguably competent AI (especially because Xillia 2 features a completed version of Xillia 1's linked arte system and has AI options for them). Kamui is a big part of the game, and the AI has trouble managing it which can be really frustrating. The game has other issues, but that's one that I've seen clearly demonstrated in the game itself.
Perfect summary of a lot of responses in this thread, pretty much.
Cybrwzrd
Banned
I love the Tales games, because I grew up watching 80's, 90's and 00's anime.
Sure, the stories are not Hemmingway, but they are always lighthearted fun.
Gaf is either really split on Anime, or folks much younger than me (I'm 33) never got into it to the degree that it was popular in '98-'05ish- as I see the "I hate Anime/Anime tropes" reason to not like this series a lot in this thread.
Sure, the stories are not Hemmingway, but they are always lighthearted fun.
Gaf is either really split on Anime, or folks much younger than me (I'm 33) never got into it to the degree that it was popular in '98-'05ish- as I see the "I hate Anime/Anime tropes" reason to not like this series a lot in this thread.
Shouta
Member
There are a lot of tropes to FF, the designs themselves sometimes will portray it and at other times won't. FFIV is probably the one that really stands out in that area but there are spots in other FFs too. It's mostly the same with Tales. Sometimes they look super tropey and other times they aren't.
Like Locke is a scoundrel with a heart of gold and his design totally screams in but Edgar and Sabin make it hard to pinpoint their twin tropes. Same can be said of Tales games, Rowen in xillia screams old, veteran trope 100% but it's sort of hard to pin one for Alvin (who's an amazing character).
HolyBaikal
Banned
Unless you're playing the game on the hardest difficulty, and are underleveled and tried to avoid every battle, you probably won't have to grind.
Most challenges in Tales games can be overcome with getting better at the combat system, rather than grinding.
Most challenges in Tales games can be overcome with getting better at the combat system, rather than grinding.
NHarmonic.
Member
Agreed. To me these characters scream "generic".
Chaos2Frozen
Member
Lol sucks to be me then >_<
Not only am I a 'hardcore' Gamer, but I'm also an Anime fan, so my niche levels are exponential =p
Leafhopper
Banned
The least a person could do is be respectful. I don't need people to agree with me, they just need to not be shitheads about opinions and we can be friends.
Echo chambers aren't healthy, and people like what they like. Some people don't like Tales games or the direction they are going in and that's perfectly fine (as long as they back up their opinion without being insulting or condescending).
HolyBaikal
Banned
The replica thing is similar in some ways. But also I think it's different in many.
It's not really the same kind of racism.But there is a lot of bigotry towards replicas discussed.
To be honest, since racism is a big problem in the real world, I wish more RPGs addressed the subject of racism in some way. Even if it's not with actual races from our world, the messages are often still the same, and still good. Valkyria Chronicles had a theme of racism, and it was good, too.
Tales of Symphonia is the game where racism is most central to the plot. In most Tales games, discrimination and prejudice is just a realistic facet of the world.
I still wonder sometimes if Alvin's writing as a character was a fluke. I haven't found a character that interesting in a JRPG, period, in quite awhile.
Hcoregamer00
The 'H' stands for hentai.
Yes, that is an aspect of it. Poor brand management overall is what has held tales back.
I read an excellent post earlier that pointed out that Japan's side has been very poor in brand management. So the parent company's strategy has held Tales back in Japan, and it has trickled to the western localization and marketing side.
After all, if they don't have a cohesive strategy that damaged them in Japan, it is even worse in the west where it is seen as an afterthought.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Was I being disrespectful? I'm so sorry if I was. :<
Not even just probably, you don't have to grind in Tales games. Ever. It's a complaint that just shows you haven't taken the any time to actually get to know the games and how they play.
And this thread is faaaar from an echo chamber, I think it's pretty reasonable to let him/her be happy some people agree with him/her
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Rutee is the "money crazy female thief" trope. Nami from One Piece is another example of this. But you are right in that it isn't used in games as often as other tropes.
Destiny had a great cast, but all of them were tropey in one way or another.
Stahn = hot blooded hero, idiot country bumpkin with a heard of gold
Leon = Calm, brooding rival
who betrays you/turns evil
Mary = Gluttonous warrior, naive, physically powerful (Kind of a Goku in this regard, right down to the amnesia)
Rutee = Money crazy thief, "only sane woman"
Woodrow/Garr = Wise older brother archetype, cool and calm swordsman (which is actually different than "brooding swordsman", believe it or not)
Karyl/Johnny = Wandering bard with a carefree attitude
Philia = Shy, goody two shoes priestess (also a mage, who would have thought?)
I could keep going. Ironically, the Swordians themselves, while they can still fall under certain tropes, are much more unique than the main cast, particularly Dymlos and Atwight. This is made especially so in the remake, when they're given character designs and more personality and backstory.
Most Tales games are the same. Each character will fill a certain role and adhere to certain tropes. The thing is, although this is true, they also have a certain uniqueness to them - it's how the writers use these tropes that makes Tales games stand out from generic anime. Guy, from Tales of the Abyss, may be the older brother you can rely on
with a tragic past
he's also Van's former master
HolyBaikal
Banned
I guess that's true.. I've never been underleveled at the highest difficulty, so I don't know.
I'm trying to say the things that I believe.. in the most reasonable way that I can. And I don't want to try to discredit someone's criticism of the Tales games in ways that I don't know for sure..
I'm trying to listen to people's criticisms as best as I can. Even if I don't agree with them.
Edge is old? I thought he was the same age as the rest of the cast but just had white hair. Strago and Galuf are also not at all similar to the rest you listed (IMO), and Balthier isn't old. That being said, you are right that there are tropes in the Final Fantasy series. I feel like Tales takes it to another level though, especially since practically every game has a
traitor (which can be pretty easy to spot by character design)
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
You pretty much were refuting/ignoring/dismissing any sort of negative/contradictory opinion and then whenever there was a post you agreed with, your responses came off of as "YES! SEE I WAS RIGHT" or something to that effect. It just came off as you weren't interested in a legitimate discussion.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
One of my favorites (not a thief, but definitely money crazed):
That's Lemina from Lunar: Eternal Blue
According to a FF site, Edge is in his mid-twenties. Tellah is the old guy in the cast.
There are plenty of tropes in great JRPGs, the difference is that they are executed well. Using tropes isn't intrinsically bad, but writers can fall into the trap of relying on the audiences' implied understanding of said tropes to carry the character (which doesn't ever work). It's like how writers think just making references is funny (i.e. Family Guy) when they instead need to work it into the right context.
You're a very nice person, but you do tend to ignore posts that challenge your view so you should work on that.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I do think it seems true that too many Tales games have a traitor characters.
Though for me, the games still have wonderful stories and characters.
I don't know that I can tell who is a traitor by their character design.
In Tales of Symphonia, it's Zelos.
In Tales of the Abyss, it's Anise.
In Tales of Vesperia, it's Raven.
In Tales of Xillia, it's Alvin.
In Tales of the Abyss, it's Anise.
In Tales of Vesperia, it's Raven.
In Tales of Xillia, it's Alvin.
What do they have in common?
Hcoregamer00
The 'H' stands for hentai.
Well, usng a certain characterization isn't bad. For example, Ace Attorney charms people with its unique and crazy cast. Many of them are walking stereotypes, but they way it is executed is excellent.
Tales executes some characterizations and developments well, and some poorly. It takes a lot of effort to make a memorable and likable character over the course of a 40-70 hour game who also changes with the storyline. I think this inconsistency is due to rushing games to be near an annual release and up due to the fact that they do recognize that the market they pander to enjoys recycled themes and characterizations.
There's a perception that they're unnatural (especially because some of the originals of the cloned people were dead) but it's barely the driving factor of the story and discrimination isn't a particularly big theme in the game at all
It's not a big theme in most of the games, if it even exists. I have a lot of complaints I could throw at the series but this is one of the stranger complaints/generalizations I've seen about it.
There's also
Kratos, Leon and Ras
Alvin, Kratos and Raven
Bad Marketing, there hasn't been a really good one since Vesperia, and now Zesty is a bit of a joke. The best Tales game, Destiny Remake Director's cut, never came to the west.
I'd rather more Star Ocean games, at least sci-fi jrpgs are still something we all could use more of.
I'd rather more Star Ocean games, at least sci-fi jrpgs are still something we all could use more of.
I think skits are a great way to flesh out a character. Because they don't have to be tied to the main story, they can be used as an excuse to reveal the less serious sides of a character, like how Gaius in Xillia 1 was this imposing, awe-inspiring figure, but in Xillia 2 he's actually a bit of a doofus because that side was revealed during skits that relate to technology.
To talk about Disco Knight Asbel, he is fucking stupid whenever the main story beats happen (the only way the story could even remotely work was if every character was suddenly and momentarily lobotomized), but whenever a skit happened that didn't relate to the main story, Asbel was actually an alright character (being the straight man everyone else), or at least one that didn't grate on you.
As for why the characterization is bad, the annualization might be it, or maybe they just need to hire better writers >_>. Regardless, they can be very hit and miss. I agree that part of it is because that's what the audience wants, so they don't fix what ain't broke.
Muffdraul
Member
My experience with Tales-
Bought ToD when it came out for Playstation. Didn't like it at all, didn't finish it.
Wife played the Tales game on the Gamecube, I forget the title. I tried it for a couple hours. Didn't like it at all.
Played the Tales of Vesperia demo on 360. Didn't like it at all.
You can probably blame people like me for its lack of popularity.
Bought ToD when it came out for Playstation. Didn't like it at all, didn't finish it.
Wife played the Tales game on the Gamecube, I forget the title. I tried it for a couple hours. Didn't like it at all.
Played the Tales of Vesperia demo on 360. Didn't like it at all.
You can probably blame people like me for its lack of popularity.
R_thanatos
Member
well , there was the crazy money obessed thief in legendia too .
I really love the Tales of Series.
My first one was TOS. You know, sometimes i like it when hidden "gems", like the Tales of series, remain as niche-games.
Don't know why tough... maybe it just feels more special while i talk with someone, and it's like "ohhh, you know Tales of!".
But then again, niche feels like a wrong term. I know i meet more people who know Tales of rather than Breath of Fire, Y's,....
My first one was TOS. You know, sometimes i like it when hidden "gems", like the Tales of series, remain as niche-games.
Don't know why tough... maybe it just feels more special while i talk with someone, and it's like "ohhh, you know Tales of!".
But then again, niche feels like a wrong term. I know i meet more people who know Tales of rather than Breath of Fire, Y's,....
Shouta
Member
Making them yearly probably hurt the quality of the series the most as it has a lot less time to be worked on and polished.
I understand that line of thinking, but I wish Tales was more popular. I've never met a person in real life who has played one or even heard of it before and I wish that it was more out there.
I feel like the ones mentioning marketing are right on. I don't watch much T.V. or browse gaming website like IGN or something, but Tales of games just get ignored. Really quite a shame too since I'm unaware of any other JRPG that is like Tales. Tropes, the cuteness, the simple appearing story (appearing being important here), the combat system and the world building.
Rodney McKay
Member
I've got nothing against Anime and I always wanted to try an action JRPG series like Tales, so I picked up Abyss on the 3DS a few years ago.
I played it for about 7-8 hours before finally stopping. I didn't really like the action gameplay which wasn't particularly fun and just made the traditional, run-of-the-mill JRPG battles seem to take longer than they should which just extended the flow of the game for me.
And a lot of the characters themselves put me off. I hated the underage (?) girl who (aggressively) has the hots for the main characters, I hated the blue Moogle looking thing, and the plot/world seemed like jibberish ("the seventh fonon" and stuff like that). I had heard that the main character was bad in this game, and he is an asshole, but it actually made me like him after a while, especially when he was an asshole to the even more annoying blue moogle guy, haha.
I really wanted a meaty adventure/RPG game for my 3DS, but I just wasn't really feeling it with Tales.
I played it for about 7-8 hours before finally stopping. I didn't really like the action gameplay which wasn't particularly fun and just made the traditional, run-of-the-mill JRPG battles seem to take longer than they should which just extended the flow of the game for me.
And a lot of the characters themselves put me off. I hated the underage (?) girl who (aggressively) has the hots for the main characters, I hated the blue Moogle looking thing, and the plot/world seemed like jibberish ("the seventh fonon" and stuff like that). I had heard that the main character was bad in this game, and he is an asshole, but it actually made me like him after a while, especially when he was an asshole to the even more annoying blue moogle guy, haha.
I really wanted a meaty adventure/RPG game for my 3DS, but I just wasn't really feeling it with Tales.
Well, gee, maybe if you didn't post stuff like "Why would I engage further in an argument with someone if I disagree with them?".
As for me, I've only ever actually watched playthroughs of Tales of Xillia 1 and 2 and it never really incentivized me to try any of the games out. But it seems clear that a major point for why the series isn't popular is the generic anime style and your usual anime cliches and bad stock characters. Man, that one kid was so annoying.
There's a lot of interesting writing in Xillia, in my opinion. At least compared to other Tales games. Jude, for example, is a pretty low-key protagonist, and he actually feels like a believable character.
For example, there's a moment when Alvin is teasing Jude about his thing with Milla and he's like, "I guess you have a thing for older women, huh?"
Now there's typically two ways the anime teen male will respond to this:
1. Ridiculous over-reaction with white eyes and stammering and such.
2. Utter cluelessness.
How does Jude respond?
"Hah! I don't know. Maybe?"
Now that's by no means godly writing, but as someone who doesn't really need that to enjoy a story I appreciate characters feeling less like predictable caricatures and more like normal people. Elise is another example of someone who is more restrained in her personality. She's somewhere between the robotic kid and hyper kid trope and as a result she ends up actually feeling like something resembling a kid.
Xillia also goes to some pretty dark places. The scenes after
Milla dies
Hcoregamer00
The 'H' stands for hentai.
Agreed, excellent post.
I love the skits for Tales games, seeing modern Tales games with skits voiced since Vesperia does bring a smile to my face. It allows the characters to be developed in the world without dragging down the story.
If they moved Tales to a bi-annual cycle for new releases, it would greatly improve quality.
They can even pull a Pokemon where one year is a brand new game, and the "off year" release is a full remake using the previous game's engine. It gives space to write better, and it gives Sakuraba more time to make an interesting and amazing soundtrack.
Go to an anime convention, there are TONS of people who attend those cons who love the games.
I wouldn't mind a 2-3 year cycle between main entries.
And none of that Director's Cut/Final Edition bullshit either.
You didn't like Mieu?!!?! I loved Mue, totally adorable character; I wish Mieu was the mascot for Tales, or something like a mascot.
Besides that, maybe try to get your hands on Tales of Eternia or Vesperia. Both are lauded as being great for their respective generations and style. Eternia is an amazing 2D combat style game, whilst Vesperia is 3D and really good. I liked both greatly and they don't create as much techno jargon that Abyss does; although the technobabble in Abyss made it feel like I was learning about the world.
Shouta
Member
Unless it's a ToD Director's Cut. Leon story ;_;
Hcoregamer00
The 'H' stands for hentai.
I wish they where more popular too OP
At least Namco actually releases them in English which is something. Apparently they do well in PAL land.
Xillia did well in the USA, it is the reason why Namco Bandai has decided to be more consistent in releases.
Though had they been more consistent in the first place, the game franchise would be much bigger in the West.
With the power of The Internet they could just shove that stuff in as DLC post-release
and have the game's Amazon user rating crater lol
HolyBaikal
Banned
Me too! Mieu is so adorable. I love Mieu. Mieu would make a great mascot for Tales.
100%..... I was really irate that Luke didn't understand why Mieu was adorable and lovable.
Wuthering_Heights
Banned
I really want to like them, but I can never get past the awful battle systems.
Supermanisdead
Member
Because they are pretty shitty games that come out every year and they never do anything interesting or unique. They're all completely by-the-numbers and lazily produced. From the enemy models being reused since Abyss, to the "soundtracks" that have no memorable songs, to the stories that are so absurdly stupid... it's just some dumb series that fills the niche of yearly anime JRPG.
I own a bunch of them and I can barely stand them anymore.
It feels like every game I've played have the same story, same character roles, same locations and same pretty much everything. There's always some power source thing that the antagonist wants, always a girl that is the key to everything, always the same things that happens. The battle system may be unique and it does evolve with the years but it feels so similar and all of this burns me out so badly.
I'm drawing the line with Zestiria, I've had enough.
It feels like every game I've played have the same story, same character roles, same locations and same pretty much everything. There's always some power source thing that the antagonist wants, always a girl that is the key to everything, always the same things that happens. The battle system may be unique and it does evolve with the years but it feels so similar and all of this burns me out so badly.
I'm drawing the line with Zestiria, I've had enough.
Ha. Which one the two below is more "generic"?
They're both side character designs, and funny how the one that is more anime is the one in Final Fantasy rather than the one in the most recent Tales game.
The Silver
Member
I've come to notice that the Tales games are all so similar to me that my enjoyment of them largely hinges upon how much I like main character.
Abyss- terrible
Symphonia - it's ok I guess
Vesperia - I love it maggle
Graces - worse than cancer
Xillia- meh
Xillia 2 - zzzzz
Abyss- terrible
Symphonia - it's ok I guess
Vesperia - I love it maggle
Graces - worse than cancer
Xillia- meh
Xillia 2 - zzzzz
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