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[Count Dookkake]

Can anyone here honestly say that they wish games to be shallow and mindless entertainment? I realize that most dev teams wouldn't take on the job, but doing so would mean a significant step for gaming. A step similar to those made by movie directors who have created questionable works like the SAW series (which, by the way, is a DISGUSTING step in movie production, but a significant one none the less).

I am no fan of the Saw series, but to suggest that there is anything uniquely disgusting about it in terms of violence, commercial intent, mindlessness or formula is incorrect.

The Abominable Dr Phibes + Friday the 13th series - fun colors = Saw series

 

[HK-47]

Now that I consider it, maybe today's youth could learn more from a video game designed as a teaching tool instead of a history book (which tend to be very dry and disconnected). This would be one of the best ways to honor the lives of those who were lost, because if we don't remember our history then we are doomed to repeat it.

Also, WW2 is one of the few wars that was considered morally unambiguous, but if you stop to think about it every side did some really fucked up things. If anything, the cheery WW2 depictions in mainstream media are doing a disservice to history by making everything seem so black and white.

And people here seem to want a Holocaust game simply to push the envelope or say hey our media can do the Holocaust 2 gaiz. How about someone do something really important like something based on the various atrocities in Africa happening right now?

lol at never forget.

 

[HK-47]

All a "video game" has to be is interactive to any degree, large or small. If the interactivity adds a dimension that couldn't exist in another medium, then it's worth looking into.

But of course a majority of gamers are greatly offended by the idea of a "game" (god I wish there were another way to refer to these things) that isn't about winning or losing, as if the existence of a game that does anything else is a threat to traditional gaming in some way. Fucking nonsense.

And what kind of game would work well with the holocaust? What would do it justice? I see lots of talk but no convincing ideas.

 

[Quagm1r3]

What do we gain as a society from the SAW movies really? Or that thing like Pink Flamingos or Salo or Last House on the Left havent already done?

We gain freedom of expression, which paves the way for people who can execute the use of touchy subjects well.

 

[HK-47]

We gain freedom of expression, which paves the way for people who can execute the use of touchy subjects well.

Wonderful. Still Saw didnt do anything new or shocking like the above mentioned films

The freedom to express how sick we all really are...good stuff

 

[camineet]

Because the holocaust is too intense for videogames, and game developers & publishers don't wanna touch that subject, even if they did it well, they don't want the massive backlash that would happen from one side or another. there's no profit in picturing the holocaust, so it's not part of WW2 games.

 

[Always-honest]

OP, is your question answered?

 

[test_account]

Because WWII wasn't rally about te Holocaust at all?

The Holocaust might not have been what started World War II, but the Holocaust has it's part in the World War 2 history. I think about 5-6 million people died in the Holocaust and that there were something like 2000 - 2500 (or maybe some more) concentration camps in Germany and Poland (combined, not 2000 - 2500 in each country, and maybe in some more european countries as well) if i'm not mistaken.

 

[CounterSeal]

It doesn't have to be a "video game" though. It doesn't have to be marketed for mass profitability. It could be a "serious game." And when more things like that start to happen, the world can begin to take the interactive medium more seriously than something for kids to "play."

 

[Night_Trekker]

And what kind of game would work well with the holocaust? What would do it justice? I see lots of talk but no convincing ideas.

It would take more than applying a "type" to it. You couldn't just turn it into a cookie-cutter WWII FPS and expect it to work.

I admit I don't have a design document planned out and ready to present to you. That doesn't mean it couldn't (or shouldn't) be done well in an interactive medium. It would take some serious creativity and outside-the-box thinking, and I hate to say it but we're sorely lacking that in the industry.

 

[itxaka]

The Holocaust might not have been what started World War II, but the Holocaust has it's part in the World War 2 history. I think about 5-6 million people died in the Holocaust and that there were something like 2000 - 2500 (or maybe some more) concentration camps in Germany and Poland (combined, not 2000 - 2500 in each country, and maybe in some more european countries as well) if i'm not mistaken.

Yeah, more like 15.000 in the German occupied territories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_camps_of_Nazi_Germany


And 6 million jews. Then add the POW's, ethnic poles, roma, etc...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Victims_and_death_toll

EDIT: The final figure is about 11 million in total (estimated of course)

 

[TheMostGorgeous]

Because the Holocaust is fucking depressing.

 

[funkmastergeneral]

The Holocaust might not have been what started World War II, but the Holocaust has it's part in the World War 2 history. I think about 5-6 million people died in the Holocaust and that there were something like 2000 - 2500 (or maybe some more) concentration camps in Germany and Poland (combined, not 2000 - 2500 in each country, and maybe in some more european countries as well) if i'm not mistaken.

The Holocaust had little to do with WWII, and more to do with giving Hitler an excuse to go through with it

 

[test_account]

Yeah, more like 15.000 in the German occupied territories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_camps_of_Nazi_Germany

Wow, really that many? That is crazy! I visited Auschwitz, Birkenau, Ravensbrück and Sachsenhausen with my school class something like 8-9 years ago. We went there with a company called "White Buses" (dircetly translated from my language to english). This company travels to the concentration camps to show people what happend. I think that the company name "White Buses" is taken from the white buses that picked up some of the prisoners from the concentration camps (some more info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_buses). It was from this trip that i saw some map and read some info about the numbers of consentration camps. I thought it was something like 2000 - 2500 camps in total, which is crazy in itself, but 15.000 is more crazy!

Thanks for the info by the way

The Holocaust had little to do with WWII, and more to do with giving Hitler an excuse to go through with it

Ye, it might be that the reason behind WWII didnt have much to do with the Holocaust itself, or that the WWII was startet because of the Holocaust, but what i ment was that i think the Holocaust is a part of the WWII history.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Wonderful. Still Saw didnt do anything new or shocking like the above mentioned films

The freedom to express how sick we all really are...good stuff

Saw functions like a fairy tale. It may not be to your liking (or mine) but it is not completely without merit. There is a glimmer of a message buried under the dastardly deeds.

 

[davepoobond]

so if we were to go into a concentration camp, would you be allowed to "accidentally" shoot Jews when trying to get to Nazis? Or would they just have all of them not exist in the camp, which would make it odd to the fact that the Nazis are still there even though all their prisoners are essentially dead?

its not really something anyone would want to make. You better believe that there'll be protests against the game from any sort of communities that suffered during WW2 in those camps.

the medium isn't right for those kinds of things to be depicted, since a lot of it depends on how the user acts, and if the user acts like a Nazi himself shooting all the Jews he can find...what's the point of putting it in there in the first place?

 

[MGrant]

ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED: Severe Emotional Trauma

 

[ghst]

only if CliffyB is the lead designer.

 

[davepoobond]

they should just make a Nazi internment camp actually a spaceship that lifts off and uses people as fuel.

 

[PhlivoSong]

i want a WW2 FPS where you play the nazis and win the war rather than losing, but no one would have the balls to make it

You want to play a game where the desired goal is removing the world of Jewish and Polish people, gays, and Gypsies. Is that what you just said? What's on your wishlist after that? An FPS where you play as Lee Harvey Oswald? John Wilkes Booth? James Earl Ray? How about a game where you control a clansman trying to restore slavery?

Would those games requires these "balls" you speak of as well?

 

[King of Cups]

I don't think you could do the Holocaust via WW2 outright, but I could imagine a similar massively horrific mid/post-liberation discovery of concentration-esqe camps taking place in a game.

It would have to be handled in an extremely haunting way too...but just enough to let the emotion linger to fuel the satisfaction of the greater good (dealt through your choice of firearm, most likely).

 

[funkmastergeneral]

You want to play a game where the desired goal is removing the world of Jewish and Polish people, gays, and Gypsies. Is that what you just said? What's on your wishlist after that? An FPS where you play as Lee Harvey Oswald? John Wilkes Booth? James Earl Ray? How about a game where you control a clansman trying to restore slavery?

Would those games requires these "balls" you speak of as well?

There have been plenty of alternative historical fiction games that have played out like you just said. The Allies are perceived as the good guys in WWII, and sometimes it fun to imagine what the world would be like if the "bad guys" won.

 

[badcrumble]

War games probably sell well to Holocaust-deniers - my guess is that if they can't sell to Silvio Berlusconi, Achmedinejad, the BNP, and that ilk, they'll have more trouble making money. Best just to leave it be - a game couldn't tackle the subject well at all if it were only shown in passing because it's something that is so easy to trivialize if you don't take it so seriously that it fills up the entire scope of the work in question. It'd become the defining aspect of the game and that's just too much pressure. I can't blame people for not wanting to go there - the Nazis in WW2 games are generally going to be the costumed baddies from Indiana Jones, and little else.

 

[davepoobond]

there already is a game about how if the nazis won world war 2.

Its called Turning Point: Fall of Liberty

 

[Vormund]

The only way I could see it work would be for the player to be one of the soldiers who found the concentration camps - and right at the end of the game. It would be a depressing ending to a game.

 

[Haly]

War games are usually safe bets, they're made because there's a market for them. Developers of these games have no reason to try something as risky as the Holocaust.

 

[wolfmat]

The Holocaust is too real. Currently, games are very detached from unpleasant reality by design.

There are exceptions, but none that feature events as present in the current minds as the Holocaust is.

Besides, it's really unclear why you would want to do that anyway. And what you want to show. Without a context, it'd just not work at all. Question then is what the context would be.

If you want to be true to the facts, you'd show stuff that'd potentially make people physically sick, could traumatize.. Games can't go there yet, or at least couldn't before.

And going over the top, as games tend to, would be totally inappropriate.

Imagine an SSFIITHD fight with Bergen-Belsen's most well-known buildings as the background, a cheering crowd from either part of the story with jumping little children. That's just nasty..

 

[itxaka]

Wow, really that many? That is crazy! I visited Auschwitz, Birkenau, Ravensbrück and Sachsenhausen with my school class something like 8-9 years ago. We went there with a company called "White Buses" (dircetly translated from my language to english). This company travels to the concentration camps to show people what happend. I think that the company name "White Buses" is taken from the white buses that picked up some of the prisoners from the concentration camps (some more info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_buses). It was from this trip that i saw some map and read some info about the numbers of consentration camps. I thought it was something like 2000 - 2500 camps in total, which is crazy in itself, but 15.000 is more crazy!

Thanks for the info by the way

Didn't knew about the white buses, thanks for the infoo too

 

[zoku88]

The Holocaust might not have been what started World War II, but the Holocaust has it's part in the World War 2 history. I think about 5-6 million people died in the Holocaust and that there were something like 2000 - 2500 (or maybe some more) concentration camps in Germany and Poland (combined, not 2000 - 2500 in each country, and maybe in some more european countries as well) if i'm not mistaken.

Maybe so, but I don't think you should really treat it as a part of WWII, even though it happened during it (and Allied soldiers liberated many camps.)

WWII games are about the war itself.

If you want a game with the holocaust, then there should probably just be a game that focuses on the holocaust itself.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Asking me to explain why people would play games that aren't fun is sort of like asking why a person would like a painting if it isn't pretty. There are lots of reasons - but it's not the easiest thing to verbalize. But in the interest of keeping a dialogue open, I'd say that it's for all the same reasons people subject themselves to artistic works that aren't immediately enjoyable - why people look at ugly paintings, unflattering pictures of humanity, films about mankind's biggest travesties, plays that always end tragically.

By the logic of "I only want to engage in it if it's fun" we should only see huge awesome blockbusters out of Hollywood, and every photo taken should be of flowers and sunsets. But there's a demand for things that aren't immediately pleasing - as long as they're mentally, emotionally, or socially engaging. And games are no different.

WOW. Way to misconstrue and completely ignore the question yet again... What would this game be like if it's so worthwhile and should be done?

Easy questions:

Are books always "fun"? no.

Are films always "fun"? no.

Is music always "fun"? no.

Campster illuminates once again these kind of threads with wise and well thought comments. Neither the industry not the consumers are ready for this at all and it shows.

First we need to get rid of the tyranny of "fun" before the medium can advance in this direction. But the medium is perfectly capable to make something in this direction and I'm sure there are developers that would be able to do it if they could.

I'm still holding my breath for the Steven Spielberg's game (not only because him, but because some of the developers names around it). Hopefully it will be a step more (or a babystep at least).

Maybe I used the wrong wording but you play games or do other mediums of entertainment because of just that, you derive some sort of entertainment or enjoyment from it. How would you make an game that would do such a thing? Movies are a lot easier because you just have to show what you want to show where as a game obviously you have to have the gamer do something. I doubt many people want to play a game where you keep getting killed because you're a victim in the camp or be killing jews.

 

[SapientWolf]

And people here seem to want a Holocaust game simply to push the envelope or say hey our media can do the Holocaust 2 gaiz. How about someone do something really important like something based on the various atrocities in Africa happening right now?

lol at never forget.

I think they want to see the Holocaust depicted in a game because the medium has never approached such serious subject matter before and it would be refreshing if someone could pull it off in a mature and respectful manner. People say that games will never be seen on the same level as movies and small minded thinking like that is part of the reason why that attitude persists.

As for the comment about Africa... Understanding the events that lead to the Holocaust could help people understand the reason for the violence in Africa right now, and in other parts of the world. Unfortunately, Africa doesn't have a monopoly on genocide.

 

[wolfmat]

I think they want to see the Holocaust depicted in a game because the medium has never approached such serious subject matter before and it would be refreshing if someone could pull it off in a mature and respectful manner.

Hai guyz here's my game where you shoot shit and also there's millions of dying Jews. I gon' make money now -- signed EA

HOW CAN YOU BE RESPECTFUL THERE??

 

[Super_Chicken]

It's because the holocaust never really happened. There I said it.

Too touchy a subject to do, same reason they took that song out of LBP. They didn't want to offend people.

 

[Danne-Danger]

I Have no Mouth, and I Must Scream have you "go back in time" to a Nazi concentration camp, you play as a scientist that used to work there. There are no Nazi symbols or anything but it's pretty clear what they were going for.

It's a point-and-click adventure game.

That's the first screen in the chapter.

 

[jamesinclair]

How about a game as a character trying to free people from a CC?

 

[test_account]

Didn't knew about the white buses, thanks for the infoo too

No problem! When my class traveled with the company "White Buses" we had a female survivor with us from the concentration camp Ravensbrück. The trip gave me some pretty strong impressions about what went on in the camps, but i can never imagine how horrible it must have been there back in the WWII days. When we went there, the sun was shining, the grass was green and i think the birds were singing too, so the atmosphere was also different if you know what i mean. In many of the pictures and films from the camp, everything is in black and white. I think i had some nightmares when i got home though, and i cried the night before we went to visit Auschwitz since i didnt want to go, especially to Auschwitz since i think that was the concentration camp that i had heard the most about

Maybe so, but I don't think you should really treat it as a part of WWII, even though it happened during it (and Allied soldiers liberated many camps.)

WWII games are about the war itself.

If you want a game with the holocaust, then there should probably just be a game that focuses on the holocaust itself.

Ye, i see your point. I dont really have that much knowledge about the WWII history, but didnt Hitler's plan about the "1000 year reich" start the WWII, and didnt this plan also include to wipe out "the weak" and to get a "clean race" (or what i shall say)?

I also think WWII games dont need to have the Holocaust part in them. I think it is an interesting question that the OP asked though, i have also been wondering about the same thing why the Holocaust part isnt in atleast some of the WWII games. I guess there are several of reason that other people in this thread have already pointed out, like that the Holocaust is too real etc. I agree to this

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I think they want to see the Holocaust depicted in a game because the medium has never approached such serious subject matter before and it would be refreshing if someone could pull it off in a mature and respectful manner. People say that games will never be seen on the same level as movies and small minded thinking like that is part of the reason why that attitude persists.

As for the comment about Africa... Understanding the events that lead to the Holocaust could help people understand the reason for the violence in Africa right now, and in other parts of the world. Unfortunately, Africa doesn't have a monopoly on genocide.

In essence though it's still the same thing. They want a holocaust game as some kind of stupid statement about video games. Who the hell cares? Do you guys really pick out your games by this? If you have then you probably haven't played many games. It's not like video games are going away anytime soon so I don't know why people are acting like they have to prove something.

 

[Campster]

WOW. Way to misconstrue and completely ignore the question yet again... What would this game be like if it's so worthwhile and should be done?

I'm honestly not trying to be snarky here - what exactly is the question? If you're asking me to make the game there's not much room for discussion here. I have no interest in making a game about the holocaust; I have nothing of substantial value to say on the subject. If you just want a vague description, I've cited numerous design paradigms that a person could use as a rough rubric in the pursuit of making a game about the holocaust, but it would be silly of me to declare a single way to "properly" make a holocaust game.

I'm not even trying to argue that a game about the holocaust should be made - I'm arguing that games can deal with cultural, social, and emotional subject matter that we have thus far neglected, including the Holocaust. That doesn't mean "I want to see a Holocaust game on the market ASAP," it means that in the careful hands of passionate developers who are free from the shackles of the mainstream games industry a holocaust game that carries significant meaning and cultural value could be made.

 

[Sibylus]

Because the developers and publishers are picturing something else: profitability. A holocaust themed game runs the risk of alienating potential customers and causing a heck of a lot of negative publicity.

Indie developers to the rescue?

 

[wolfmat]

How about a game as a character trying to free people from a CC?

What do you mean, free 5 specific people and let the thousands of others rot there?

Killing all the Nazi guards could work in a way, I guess..

Still feels wrong thinking about it though. I mean, such a thing never actually happened. So you need a fictionary CC. Things go downhill from there...

 

[farnham]

wasnt the war practically over when the united front reached the KZs..?

 

[SapientWolf]

Hai guyz here's my game where you shoot shit and also there's millions of dying Jews. I gon' make money now -- signed EA

HOW CAN YOU BE RESPECTFUL THERE??

Who said that it had to be a traditional shooter? Or from EA, for that matter. If they could walk the line between educating and entertaining in a tv show like Band of Brothers then why wouldn't that be feasible for a video game? Like I said before in my post, small minded thinking from both the consumers and the developers is what is keeping the industry from maturing.

I picture something like an virtual museum being done in the near future, with moments in history being done in interactive vignettes. But they would probably drop the term 'video game' because of all the negative connotations that term seems to carry.

 

[Formless]

Videogames aim to entertain, not horrify or educate. It's also a very iffy topic that's open to lots of scrutiny.

 

[neight]

The holocaust was hidden from the greater German population including the Wehrmacht. They were just an army, nothing more. So unless you're making a game where you play as a guard in a concentration camp or a prisoner trying to escape there should be no reason you ever see the holocaust in a game.

 

[wolfmat]

Who said that it had to be a traditional shooter? Or from EA, for that matter. If they could walk the line between educating and entertaining in a tv show like Band of Brothers then why wouldn't that be feasible for a video game? Like I said before in my post, small minded thinking from both the consumers and the developers is what is keeping the industry from maturing.

What I'm trying to say is that we're talking about games and big studios here. Studios that are out there to make big bucks.

It doesn't matter whether it's a board game, a card game, a Jump 'n Run, a stealth game or an FPS shooter. I'm not saying it'd have to be a traditional shooter, I'm saying it wouldn't work as a traditional video game and emphasizing the aspect of commercial motivation in the business.

I picture something like an virtual museum being done in the near future, with moments in history being done in interactive vignettes. But they would probably drop the term 'video game' because of all the negative connotations that term seems to carry.

That would of course work as it is in an educational sense, regardless of what such a museum depicted, but there is nothing game-y about such a museum, I'd say.

And having visited a few CCs in my life, I doubt you could get the whole atmosphere right. That's another problem; you'd have to solve that one to be appropriate.

 

[itxaka]

Who said that it had to be a traditional shooter? Or from EA, for that matter. If they could walk the line between educating and entertaining in a tv show like Band of Brothers then why wouldn't that be feasible for a video game? Like I said before in my post, small minded thinking from both the consumers and the developers is what is keeping the industry from maturing.

I don't know man, Band of Brothers is pretty hard, especially at the end when they find the concentration camps. The problem is, that in the series is really well reproduced but in a game will probably look too corny, or out of place to be be educational or entertaining

 

[adversesolutions]

It's an interesting question, and I've really only seen one response in this thread that was thoughtful. Most of these one sentence responses make the issue seem too simple. The idea of "generic evil" rather than a "specific evil" is an interesting one. However, saying the Germans are generic evil really isn't all that generic. Isn't that kind of specificity what kept CoD 4 as being a random middle eastern country and not Iraq?

One thing that deeply disturbed me about CoD 4 was the premise of WHY you were attacking that middle eastern country: because there had been a revolution there, and you had to put it down. Sure that revolution seems to be a bit dictatorial from the few scenes you actually see of it but, what if there was an important social basis to it, i.e. peasants taking over the land, or workers seizing factories or something? You don't even have time to consider this, you're just there to repress.

There's also the fact that the mission of American/Coalition troops in Iraq today is to safeguard the Iraqi transition from dictatorship to democracy. CoD4 almost has the post-9/11 let's kick their ass attitude to it. Fails in any way to do justice to the complexity of the situation in the middle east, where so far it takes American guns and lives to safeguard genuine societal progress.

 

[Campster]

One thing that deeply disturbed me about CoD 4 was the premise of WHY you were attacking that middle eastern country: because there had been a revolution there, and you had to put it down. Sure that revolution seems to be a bit dictatorial from the few scenes you actually see of it but, what if there was an important social basis to it, i.e. peasants taking over the land, or workers seizing factories or something? You don't even have time to consider this, you're just there to repress.

There's also the fact that the mission of American/Coalition troops in Iraq today is to safeguard the Iraqi transition from dictatorship to democracy. CoD4 almost has the post-9/11 let's kick their ass attitude to it. Fails in any way to do justice to the complexity of the situation in the middle east, where so far it takes American guns and lives to safeguard genuine societal progress.

Call of Duty 4 has scenes where they torture and then execute a surrendered, unarmed prisoner of war because they're "done" with him. It's got some pretty horridly pro-Western propaganda in it. I mean, I realize it's only in there to make the British troops look more "badass," and not to scream "let's kill all the brown people," but it's still an inexcusable cinematic.

 

[StarEye]

You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

 

[itxaka]

Call of Duty 4 has scenes where they torture and then execute a surrendered, unarmed prisoner of war because they're "done" with him. It's got some pretty horridly pro-Western propaganda in it. I mean, I realize it's only in there to make the British troops look more "badass," and not to scream "let's kill all the brown people," but it's still an inexcusable cinematic.

What about the first mission where you kill those guys sleeping? That is the true face of war, everybody has to die, no matter if they are shooting or sleeping. They show what it was about, bad things in both sides.

Heck I remeber that I didn't even notice it until my GF told me that why they were killing those sleeping guys and that it was horrible.