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Why did the GameCube controller not have a left Z button?

I remember someone from Nintendo at E3 2001 saying something along the lines of "think of it as a select button", or something like that.

Most games didn't use it much, except for bringing up maps and such.

The GC controller was ergonomically superb, but it had many weaknesses (the d-pad being the biggest).
 
I remember there was an article while Rogue Leader was in development, and the journalist who went there to play it (Steven Kent, I think?) mentioned a Z button on the left as well as right, and possibly that they had several versions of the controller with different buttons.

Honestly, no matter how bad of an idea the Z button was, it should've been mirrored.
 
RiskyChris said:
A better question is why did the GameCube controller have a right Z button?

Yeah The Z button was a bitch to hit considering that L and R buttons were designed to wrap your fingers and keep them in place. The GC controller was the usual half good/half shit controller that Nintendo has been making since the SNES days.
 
NSider said:
I remember someone from Nintendo at E3 2001 saying something along the lines of "think of it as a select button", or something like that.

Most games didn't use it much, except for bringing up maps and such.

The GC controller was ergonomically superb, but it had many weaknesses (the d-pad being the biggest).
That's a nice way of saying "It feels great in your hands, but didn't work for a lot of games."

Fighting games in general (aside from SSBM) just didn't work with it.

Comfy controller, just not that practical.
 
Lostconfused said:
But that doesn't mean that nintendo has to make a shitty controller just to be different.
If that's not an opening to post a pic of the Wiimote then I don't know what is.
 
Fuzzy said:
If that's not an opening to post a pic of the Wiimote then I don't know what is.
If you do I'll start sending you lewd Monkey Gifs.

I can animate a whole lot of strange monkey behavior. Don't make me do it! (I have no life as it is!)
 
Fuzzy said:
If that's not an opening to post a pic of the Wiimote then I don't know what is.

Well it is. It just seems that nintendo is somewhat hit or miss with their designs. I hate the c stick so much, i always wondered why there was no dual stick aiming in RE4 until i held that horrible purple monstrosity, oh and its not making my metroid prime experience any better either.
 
Lostconfused said:
Well it is. It just seems that nintendo is somewhat hit or miss with their designs. I hate the c stick so much, i always wondered why there was no dual stick aiming in RE4 until i held that horrible purple monstrosity, oh and its not making my metroid prime experience any better either.
Ehhh, dual stick aiming would have turned RE4 into something far away from Resident Evil. That limitter in the analog control scaled the pace back down. It slowed it down enough that it never felt gone from the series. It was still a RE at heart. What you're suggesting would have turned it into something that felt like Max Payne. Great game in it's own right, but vastly different from what RE is.

Metroid Prime 3 I'm kind of scared might be altered too much from the freedom that Wiimote control brings to it. In MP 1 & 2 the controls seemed to be strongly catered to the more discerning Japanese audience. To little avail, and now seems to be catering itself strongly to more western design principles. I hope it still feels like Metroid Prime is all I'm saying.

Some basic design flaws in the controller were exploited to great effect in quite a few games.

It shows the ingenuity of some developers, and when Nintendo is in an on the out kind of relationship with gamers developers at large don't care enough to design around them. Leading to 3rd party titles being largely... ummm bad on Nintendo consoles.

This time they seem to have struck a cord with gamers around the world. And what we are seeing right now seems to be the response to their own preconceived notions on how the generation would play out.

I don't know how it will turn out, but one thing is obvious right now there's a largely growing userbase in industry dead months, being propped up on games that cost no more to develop then last gen titles. If western devs and eastern devs aren't noticing this aside from a few, then they will be maybe not hurting, but likely missing out on a lot of money.

Ok, I'm done ranting up the place tonight.

Think I'm going to play a demo of an online shooter made seven years ago.
 
RiskyChris said:
It doesn't? The fact that the left kidney button (X?) rests perfectly at the tip of your thumb while hovering over A is not a smart design decision? You can roll your finger to easily hit Y (the right kidney).

The face buttons were amazing in design, much better than the 360's controller.

Next up on When Fanboys Defend: The Gamecube controller.
 
Crayon Shinchan said:
Next up on When Fanboys Defend: The Gamecube controller.
*smacks*

That's RiskyChris you're talking to.

He even has risk in his name. Be careful, he just might murder you in your sleep he's so risky.
 
WildArms said:
The R and L buttons are also really cool, although they feel as if they were created just for Super Mario Sunshine and Luigi's Mansion. :-D
The Star Wars games and Metroid Prime
 
drohne said:
same reason the buttons are funny shaped, and the right analog is a useless nipple -- that controller is a showpiece of meaningless idiosyncrasy
How pathetic. The gamecube controller is the best damn controller ever made - the thing just melts into your hands like the perfect mould. Its pretty impossible to press the wrong button becoz they all give different tactile feedback. Also the best analog stick ever made.

A perfectly made Gamecube was only supposed to use one button "A" half of the time, with the triggers for everything else. Like Metriod Prime.
 
Because it wouldn't be comfortable? Do people think before posting? If you have your thumb on the left stick how awkward would it be tapping that tiny little button and holding the L trigger?
 
A2D said:
Not this again :(
Yeah, not sure if I get the arguement.

Don't like the controller or console? Don't buy it.

It works in any videogame related situation, but is hardly ever followed.

My qualms with Sony have more to do with price and reliability, but I don't go into every PS3 or PS2 thread and shout the same thing over and over.
 
Everything about the button layout of the GC controller was ass. I've said over and over that I think the shape of the controller is possibly the best ever. The Wavebird is quite nice to hold in the hands for hours on end. But the button layout is an abortion. Let's take it point by point:

1. Analog stick - The resistance was right. The texture of the stick itself was nice. The decision to put the 8-way notches around it is completely baffling. If I'm using analog, wtf do I want to have a diagonal or horizontal defined?

2. D-pad - Is this piece of shit from a GBA? It's tiny. It's unresponsive. It's ****ing TINY. I have small, antique doll hands. I have watchmaker's hands. Yet even my toddler hands feel massive and clumsy with this d-pad. Fighting game hell. I'm suprised Nick "Blue Shadows" Rox (hey man, I actively defended you on usenet, just so you know) claims to like this controller considering you're better off throwing the controller through your tv screen than actually using it to play a fighting games. Hell, aren't even any fighting games, so I guess it doesn't matter.

3. Start button - Um....this is actually good. Can't get that wrong.

4. C-stick - Miyamoto wasn't happy that the c-buttons on the N64 pad were undersized and utterly worthless. He took it to another step and made them into an undersized and worthless analog stick. Did anyone make an adapter you could fit over the top of this thing? There was absolutely no reason it had to be so small or so smooth.

5. Face buttons - Buahahahaha! From the first pic of the controller I have bitched. I will never stop complaining. Worst button layout ever. Who plays games that need two kidney-shaped buttons? Who needs one oversized A button and a tiny, poorly-placed B-button? Instead of simplifying controls (How? It's the same ****ing number of face buttons ffs), it made playing popular games a chore. Thank god we didn't get many 3rd party games. The controller made a game like Splinter Cell or Prince of Persia unnecesssarily cumbersome. Not to mention it was essentially a SNES controller with a Picasso layout.

6. Z-button - Why? Tactile feel of a cold brick. Placed by a retard who couldn't even bother to hold the prototype with his own hands before sending it off to production, b/c there's no way anyone can call that button comfortable or functional. Thankfully, not many games use it for anything important. Eventhough the system already has a shortage of buttons.

7. Triggers - Love 'em. I don't care for the clicky part, but I don't complain about it either. The shape and feel was great. I never had to rely on the sensitivity of the triggers though, so I don't know if they were so great for brake/throttle control. But it worked for my library.

The controller is great in my hands...so long as I don't have to use it. Once I have to start playing with it, I just want to punch Miyamoto in the face. Maybe piss down his neck a bit. The Wavebird is my favorite controller. I just wish it had a traditional button layout. drohne probably said it best, but I had to rant. PEACE.
 
As others have said, the controller was perfect for first party games and exclusives. Unfortunately, multiplatform games that weren't originally designed for the GC kind of got shoehorned in, and developers didn't always make great decisions. One session with the Mega Man collection will confirm it. As will ports like the Prince(s) of Persia, Gun and etc. Still, for games like Metroid Prime and RE4, it was perfect.
 
Duane Cunningham said:
As others have said, the controller was perfect for first party games and exclusives. Unfortunately, multiplatform games that weren't originally designed for the GC kind of got shoehorned in, and developers didn't always make great decisions. One session with the Mega Man collection will confirm it. As will ports like the Prince(s) of Persia, Gun and etc. Still, for games like Metroid Prime and RE4, it was perfect.

So it was sort of like the wii remote version alpha?

And developers still haven't learned.

Anyway, the gamecube game is my favorite controller of the last generation. Time for a line by line debate!

1. Analog stick - The resistance was right. The texture of the stick itself was nice. The decision to put the 8-way notches around it is completely baffling. If I'm using analog, wtf do I want to have a diagonal or horizontal defined?

The notches are exactly why the gamecube stick is the best. Yes, it's an analog controller, but that doesn't change the fact that it's important to be able to go directly straight ahead when playing 3D games -- take, for instance, if you have to cross a narrow ledge in platformer. With the dual shock or Controller S, I consistently find my thumb getting lost down there. The notches give you a consistent tactile frame of reference for where true "up" is. The dual shock almost ruins gitaroo man for me, for this reason.

2. D-pad - Is this piece of shit from a GBA? It's tiny. It's unresponsive. It's ****ing TINY. I have small, antique doll hands. I have watchmaker's hands. Yet even my toddler hands feel massive and clumsy with this d-pad. Fighting game hell. I'm suprised Nick "Blue Shadows" Rox (hey man, I actively defended you on usenet, just so you know) claims to like this controller considering you're better off throwing the controller through your tv screen than actually using it to play a fighting games. Hell, aren't even any fighting games, so I guess it doesn't matter.

As has been pointed out, no game uses it. And if you don't have a fighting stick to play fighting games, well... then you're a moran, as they say.

4. C-stick - Miyamoto wasn't happy that the c-buttons on the N64 pad were undersized and utterly worthless. He took it to another step and made them into an undersized and worthless analog stick. Did anyone make an adapter you could fit over the top of this thing? There was absolutely no reason it had to be so small or so smooth.
.

Again, the C-stick works quite well if it's used well by developers. It sucks for FPS games (but then, the only controller to get this aspect right is the xbox controller, which has its own host of horrible problems) but it's perfect for third person camera controls. It's snappy and easy to make subtle adjustments with.

5. Face buttons - Buahahahaha! From the first pic of the controller I have bitched. I will never stop complaining. Worst button layout ever. Who plays games that need two kidney-shaped buttons? Who needs one oversized A button and a tiny, poorly-placed B-button? Instead of simplifying controls (How? It's the same ****ing number of face buttons ffs), it made playing popular games a chore. Thank god we didn't get many 3rd party games. The controller made a game like Splinter Cell or Prince of Persia unnecesssarily cumbersome. Not to mention it was essentially a SNES controller with a Picasso layout.

The face button layout is why the gamecube controller is brilliant. It shows a deep understanding of the way most games are designed: you've got a primary action button, a secondary button (say, jump and attack, or what have you), and then a host of tertiary commands -- so the buttons are laid out to reflect this. In the dead center you have the large, appealing A button, for primary or context-sensitive actions, and immediately to your left is the smaller, but still somewhat prominent B button. Surrounding on the right are the x and y buttons, which are used for tertiary commands. This is great because as long as the game is designed so that your most important, commonly used move is on the A button, you are only a half centimeter away from using any other commands -- and they're so distinctively placed that it's easy to remember where they are.

6. Z-button - Why? Tactile feel of a cold brick. Placed by a retard who couldn't even bother to hold the prototype with his own hands before sending it off to production, b/c there's no way anyone can call that button comfortable or functional. Thankfully, not many games use it for anything important. Eventhough the system already has a shortage of buttons.

Ironically, the Z button exists as an afterthought because of whiny morons like you who can't stand it when something traditional changes. The entire point of the gamecube controller is to simplify input (and at this, of course, it only half succeeds), but the Z button ****s it up even further. But developers wanted it because they don't know how to make games that efficiently use input channels...

And anyway, this is rendered moot, since in nearly all gamecube games the Z button is basically a select button.
 
Duane Cunningham said:
As will ports like the Prince(s) of Persia

Eh? I never had any controller issues with the PoP games with the GC controller. The only thing they ever used the Z button for was that one camera view option for you to see the whole room. I think a better example would have been Splinter Cell or SSX.
 
Aokage said:
I think the Z button was probably an artifact left over from the N64 Z trigger.

Most likely.

I thought the GC controller was confortable in hand... but agree with others that the lack of symmetry made it seem somewhat confusing. Bring over a friend and explain the controls to them.... then sit back for a show. :D
 
Speevy said:
Not to mention that practically any genre is crippled by it. Play Tony Hawk with the Cube controller, or SSX.

Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 was actually the first game I bought for my Gamecube. I got the system at launch, like every Nintendo system, but there weren't any games I was actually interested in. At this point, I didn't have a PS2 yet but loved my Tony Hawk. The craziest thing (aside from buying a GC for a 3rd party game that's on every system) is that I use the analog stick in Tony Hawk. I started out playing it on my Dreamcast and didn't realize until it was too late that I should have been using the D Pad.

I loved the GC controller for THPS3. I could do any move I wanted with ease because the analog stick was so much more precise on the GC than the DC. Also, the buttons were pretty perfect too. I had to get later entries in the series for my Xbox, though, because none of my friends could use a stick to play and the GC D Pad is horrendous.
 
ZealousD said:
Eh? I never had any controller issues with the PoP games with the GC controller. The only thing they ever used the Z button for was that one camera view option for you to see the whole room. I think a better example would have been Splinter Cell or SSX.


Hmm, I could swear there was some big flaw with the setup on PoP when I played it on GC. Maybe not. Actually, I almost said Splinter Cell, except I loved the GBA connectivity and gave it a reprieve.
 
Because having 2 sholder buttons on the left side is retarded.

I cant stand it on PS2, I cant stand it on Wii. I'm probably just being retarded here, but I cant use an analog stick and feel comfortable doing it if im only bracing my grip with my two weakest fingers. On the button side its fine, as all the thumb needs to do is move up and down.

Luckily all the Wii games ive played dont require you to simultaniously use C and Z so I can alternate one finger inbetween them.
 
The Gamecube controller had the best feel last gen, but was ruined by terrible button layouts. The A, B, X, Y, Z, D-pad, and C-stick all needed changes. The Analog stick, L and R buttons were perfect, though. As was the over-all shape and feel of the controller (although, the 360 controller has upstaged it in that area).

RiskyChris said:
Otherwise known as the greatest button to ever grace a console pad.
Quite right.

And 3D Zelda games have never felt right without the C-buttons.
 
There's absolutely nothing inherently wrong with the GameCube controller's face button layout. In a vacuum, it's a great design that allows for more convenient use of multiple button functions than the diamond pattern.

However, the reality is that being different from the design that the industry was comfortable with and was continuing to design software around was in itself a fatal flaw. Try playing Super Mario World on VC with the GC controller and then think about the fact that the majority of 6th gen games make the same assumptions about the button layout.

With respect to the topic question, the controller wasn't to have any 'Z' button until third party developers asked for one.
 
I think the GC controller worked very well for the RE games.

It's a comfortable controller, but the button layout is just weird.
 
Firesprite121984 said:
Ehhh, dual stick aiming would have turned RE4 into something far away from Resident Evil. That limitter in the analog control scaled the pace back down. It slowed it down enough that it never felt gone from the series. It was still a RE at heart. What you're suggesting would have turned it into something that felt like Max Payne. Great game in it's own right, but vastly different from what RE is.

I understand that the pacing of the stop and pop fits the RE games, but my point was that there was also a hardware limitation that would prevent them from doing it. As to my comment about metroid prime, is that the C stick is a total ass and it takes me 5 seconds to switch between beams. Sure its only 5 seconds but its still a pain in the ass when i have to juggle between the lousy beam space pirates, doors and all the rest.
 
the z button was the worst placed button on the entire controller. It's like some moron dripped his cheese sauce on the schematic and it accidentally became a button. Thank god there weren't two of them.
 
Baryn said:
This was 6 years ago's idea of innovation.

The only way that the wii mote is different is that they went so much further with it this time. The problem of the 3rd party multi plat games being designed around the controller is much more acute. Its just that nintendo managed to swing ahead this time and entrenched their controller as a standard.
 
Andonuts said:
The notches are exactly why the gamecube stick is the best. Yes, it's an analog controller, but that doesn't change the fact that it's important to be able to go directly straight ahead when playing 3D games -- take, for instance, if you have to cross a narrow ledge in platformer. With the dual shock or Controller S, I consistently find my thumb getting lost down there. The notches give you a consistent tactile frame of reference for where true "up" is. The dual shock almost ruins gitaroo man for me, for this reason.
Fair enough. You like it, I hate it. I don't need a guide to find the 8 corners. This thing made it more difficult to find those in-between points b/c the angles naturally push you towards the nearest corner. Different strokes.

As has been pointed out, no game uses it. And if you don't have a fighting stick to play fighting games, well... then you're a moran, as they say.
I'm not a competitive fighter, but I do dig on a few of the 3D franchises. The Cube pad is flat out useless. It's an abomination. I'm a fan of the DS layout of sticks. The d-pad needs to be larger, and the placement should be in the main slot. Different strokes there, but the Xbox controller has the same layout with a better (though not great) d-pad.

The face button layout is why the gamecube controller is brilliant. It shows a deep understanding of the way most games are designed: you've got a primary action button, a secondary button (say, jump and attack, or what have you), and then a host of tertiary commands -- so the buttons are laid out to reflect this. In the dead center you have the large, appealing A button, for primary or context-sensitive actions, and immediately to your left is the smaller, but still somewhat prominent B button. Surrounding on the right are the x and y buttons, which are used for tertiary commands. This is great because as long as the game is designed so that your most important, commonly used move is on the A button, you are only a half centimeter away from using any other commands -- and they're so distinctively placed that it's easy to remember where they are.

See, what I don't get is you claim this to be simpler than the standard diamond. How? Four buttons on both. Going fron a square to a circle is no longer a stretch than going from X to B. Hell, it's probably shorter given how small the B button is.

The insult is that you mention building games around this retarded layout. What game needs a primary fire button so large it looked like Fisher-Price made it? The tinker toys of games, which is why the GC library is anemic in comparison to the other two. Not even Nintendo could consistently code around the deficiencies of this stupid interface. It's effectively 6 buttons with a misplaced Select and no d-pad. Oh, and a proprietary layout that no one could figure out.

ZELDA WAS AN SIMPLE GAME! MARIO SUNSHINE IS A SIMPLE GAME! F-ZERO IS A SIMPLE ****ING GAME! Those games would have been just as effective with a DS or Xbox pad. Hell, Miyamoto might have been able to ditch the inventory swapping in Wind Waker b/c of all the extra buttons he had available (could really used L3/R3 and pressure-sensitive buttons). Oh well, but it's simpler b/c....uh...there are fewer buttons. Hooray for devolution. I can't wait until we lose these pesky thumbs.

I'd finish replying, but you even copout for the Z-button. The only insult I can think of right now is that you deserve the Gamecube and it's shitty controller. And that hurts me b/c it's the only system I currently own besides my PSP. PEACE.
 
The Z-button was designed to be an easier to access Select button for easy access to menus and maps and so forth without taking your thumb off the main action buttons. They made it so "crappy" and didn't include a left one because they didn't want developers to utilise it as an action button.

The GameCube controller was all about ergonomics and simplification. Unfortunately, every third party game was designed around the Dual Shock which compromised their strategy somewhat.
 
big_z said:
I'm surprised no one so far knows the story behind the z button.

Originally there was going to be no z-button at all because nintendo wanted to keep the controller simple and easy to use. However developers bitched a shit load just before release demanding more buttons to make porting easier... nintendo gave in and the z-button was added. That's why there's no left z-button and why it feels like a pos compared to the rest of the controller. It was a last minute addition.


Took long enough for someone to tell the true story. I thought this was more commonly known. Maybe I just payed way too much attention to gamecube news leading up to its release. I need a life :(

I also remember seeing prototypes where the b button was a third kidney button, also one really scary prototype was were the dpad was completely removed and replaced witha big red start button. Thatd be even scarier than the dpad that eventually made its way there. Nintendo definitely must spend a lot of time doing drugs to come up with some of their crazy designs.
 
The GCN is the worst controller of last generation. Only Nintendo made games that utilized the awkward button placement.

Then again only Nintendo made games for the console, hah!
 
I'm actually in the minority here, but I really dislike the feel and shape of the controller itself, but quite like the feel of the actual buttons. For some reason, my hand always falls asleep when using a Gamecube controller. Regardless though, it's pointless to argue about something like this, since this is 100% subjective.
 
Odrion said:
The GCN is the worst controller of last generation.

Anybody who says this clearly does not remember The Duke.

XBOX_controller.jpg
 
Lostconfused said:
The only way that the wii mote is different is that they went so much further with it this time. The problem of the 3rd party multi plat games being designed around the controller is much more acute. Its just that nintendo managed to swing ahead this time and entrenched their controller as a standard.

Well thats never happened before...Wait...
 
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