Fancy Clown
Member
He's just not a very good writer. And since his games all rely pretty much entirely on the story, they are pretty disappointing.
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Why did Until Dawn "work" when similar games did not?
- Thread starter sn00zer
- Start date
He's just not a very good writer. And since his games all rely pretty much entirely on the story, they are pretty disappointing.
dancingphlower
Member
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that it's trying to emulate a b-grade slasher flick. It's much easier to forgive flaws in the writing in those types of stories. But even then the production values are great, the actors are pretty good for the most part, and it's got some neat gameplay things going on.
This is how I feel.
I do give Heavy Rain credit for what it achieved at the time, but all of Cage's games are plagued with poor writing.
The story was more entertaining on a minute by minute basis and was more accessible in the same way that a summer blockbuster was.
The game also was aware of its limitations and wrote toward them with characters that easily fit within horror archetypes. Compare that with the Quantic Dream games where the poorly written characters are treated seriously.
The game also was aware of its limitations and wrote toward them with characters that easily fit within horror archetypes. Compare that with the Quantic Dream games where the poorly written characters are treated seriously.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Good characters, for a start.
I also quite liked how
I also quite liked how
the game started out as a mish-mash of good horror movies, then turned into Resident Evil.
Manny Calavera
Member
Always makes me wonder when people say this. I actually consider the story in Heavy Rain to be pretty good in video game standards. Sure it's not flawlessly airtight or without plotholes, but it does what it's supposed to. It makes you emotionally invested to the story and the characters that very few video games have. I also thought the mystery was fascinating and none of the plotholes bothered me a bit while playing it and I appreciated how it was influenced by some great films. Sure it's not masterpiece of writing like Casablanca, Chinatown or Silence of the Lambs or doesn't give quite as strong a gut punch like Se7en a film which I feel influenced some of the games storylines.
For me Heavy Rain has one of the most enjoyable stories in videogames and I've been playing a lot story based games since the late 80's. It pulls you in and creates an effective mood and atmosphere despite the plotholes, some awkward acting and other problems. Can't wait to play it again on PS4 and see if it still holds up as well for me.
IdreamofHIME
Member
They knew they were making a B-Movie horror. Heavy Rain, Beyond and even the Order take themselves way too serious. They are C tier stories that think they are AAA.
Knowing is half the battle and those games didn't have a clue.
Knowing is half the battle and those games didn't have a clue.
But the characters don't even make sense.
Especially the identity of the killer.
Just because The Order has some third-person shooting sprinkled in between its self-indulgent cutscenes doesn't mean it isn't prime for comparison with other cinematic games like Until Dawn.
It's very much a game where they were primarily focused on trying to tell a story. The shooting was just there because they didn't know how else to fill up the time in between story bits.
It's the same thing Naughty Dog does, they build the gameplay around the story. (ND just happens to execute on the gameplay part far better than RAD did)
It's all about the specific developer's priorities and how much of each element they put in the forefront of the player's attention. Something like Gears of War's story doesn't really matter as much as it does with The Order, because Epic wasn't beating you over the head with long-ass unskippable cutscenes. Their primary focus was clearly on making the shooter part first and the story just kind of happened to be there in the background to frame everything and give context, but it wasn't the focus.
Gray Matter
Member
I literally just finished until dawn. The entire game I was just crusing by not really caring about my choices, with a few exceptions through out, then the very last choice I was given, I immidiately regret it as soon as I picked it.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Heavy Rain has an 87 metascore and sold over 3 million copies. Not disappointing in any way.
Kwansu Dudes
Member
I would like add that they actually hired directors/writers who have EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE in horror films, not just some wannabe who thinksaid that adding in a random ass illuminati demon ghost sex twist constitutes a good story.
The only cons for me were Emily's atrocious voice acting, some technical issues and how a few characters were totally under utilized.
semiconscious
Gold Member
by being less ambitious, & focusing on a relatively simple, straight-forward story, they were able to do more by doing less. had heavy rain trimmed some of the unnecessary 'melodrama' fat, & focused more on the actual investigation, i think it could've been similarly successful...
Manny Calavera
Member
Didn't bother me one bit while playing for the first time and I'm usually very sensitive about bad writing, but usually only in films. When it comes to games I'm ready to forgive a lot since games are completely different kind of experiences. Games are always build from the point of view of the gameplay. I actually thought the identity of the killer twist was really well made and took me by a surprise. I'm ready to forgive some gameplay elements with the character that didn't make complete sense for the player at the time to get that twist.
When I'm totally into a game or a movie and care about the characters the experience as a whole comes first and I don't feel the need to nitpick every detail of the plot. Let's consider one of my favorite films of the past decade, Memento. I don't consider the plot to be completely flawless or without a single plot hole, but it's just so ingenious and original way to tell a story that I don't care. it is extremely refreshing to see a film where the viewer is just as clueless, confused and paranoid as the protagonist and they both must discover the facts a piece by piece. I'm not claiming Heavy Rain is even nearly as well written as Memento, but at the time I played it for the first time it felt really original and unique.
I liked Indigo Prophecy on Xbox, I only played the demo of Beyond but I didn't see anything wrong from the demo.
OrlanisWorks
Banned
Metascore and sales... sooooo.... ? That'll make someone less disappointed in a game with bad writing?
Jawmuncher
Member
It was on par with everything else in the genre to me. But then again I like most of what has been a part of that genre. Don't really have a "favorite" from it if I had to choose only one.
In my opinion - it didn't. At all.
I've been constantly perplexed at the success of this game.
Are people really so enamored with high production values that they suddenly think this is substantially better than other similar games, many of which were/are viewed negatively? Does good (voice-)acting make questionable writing THAT MUCH more palatable to gamers? Or am I just missing something?
In fact I would love if someone could succinctly explain to me what the big deal about Until Dawn is. I'm completely at a loss.
EDIT: I consider the horror genre to be the filthiest, most vapid corner of the film industry so maybe it's just my bias/preference talking. I suppose Until Dawn is as good as any of the random horror films that release every year, and if that's your "thing" then I guess I can see the appeal.
I've been constantly perplexed at the success of this game.
Are people really so enamored with high production values that they suddenly think this is substantially better than other similar games, many of which were/are viewed negatively? Does good (voice-)acting make questionable writing THAT MUCH more palatable to gamers? Or am I just missing something?
In fact I would love if someone could succinctly explain to me what the big deal about Until Dawn is. I'm completely at a loss.
EDIT: I consider the horror genre to be the filthiest, most vapid corner of the film industry so maybe it's just my bias/preference talking. I suppose Until Dawn is as good as any of the random horror films that release every year, and if that's your "thing" then I guess I can see the appeal.
Fancy Clown
Member
Just because video game critics (who tend to not be the most critical or analytical--doubly so when it comes to narrative--compared to the critics of more established art forms) gave it good reviews doesn't change my opinion that the writing is below the level of quality necessary to support a narrative focused game.
mejin
Member
This is simply not true.
dragonbane
Member
Well in general terms Heavy Rain was actually more successful though. By every known metric (higher ratings, bigger sales, more user activity on GAF). I guess you meant from your personal view? That is fine of course.
It quite does though, apart from the character thoughts, which is either a big oversight or needed more fleshing out. Apart from that there was no real issue with it though, it was quite easy to figure out.
It definitely isn't. If you change it to "final hour" it becomes quite true though. Especially since the deaths barely have any effect on the sequence flow of the game, you still go through the same stuff mostly. Some of the dialogue doesnt even make sense if a lot of the characters are dead/alive creating plot holes or crazy character motivations.
Manny Calavera
Member
Everyone around here is suddenly the expert in what is good writing. I still consider Heavy Rain to be one of the more interesting and unique stories told in games.
EDIT: It has been a few years since I last played it though, so I'm really looking forward to the PS4 version to see how well it will hold up.
Elitist1945
Member
This guy:
Young Nathan Drake.
Fancy Clown
Member
Considering that's what I studied in school I think I at least have a fairly reasonable grasp on storytelling. Just because I don't think the writing is very good doesn't mean you or anyone else can't like it though.
dragonbane
Member
Don't even try, I have experience on these matters, it can only end badly
I'm with you, but there is really no point trying to argue it, as it inevitably goes down in hours of boring back and forth with no conclusion anyway. Seen it too many times. When it comes to QD games its probably better to just enjoy them silently and stick to official threads for them to argue stuff.
Manny Calavera
Member
That's a fact. Every time I speak about the game I mention the plotholes and other problems, but I'm just ready to forgive them for the experience. Almost every great film in the history has some minor plot details or something else you can nitpick about. There are several games and films with some plot elements that bothered me, but with Heavy Rain nothing too major at least so far. But like I said it's not completely fresh in my mind anymore.
I think the biggest reason is that it gave significant meaning to your choices. While I have not played Until Dawn this has been the detail that stuck out from everyone I knew who liked it.
I don't think it is surprising to see games like Until Dawn and Undertale get lots of praise. I hope developers catch on to this. Your writing does not need to be the best if you allow a story to unfold based on the players choice. It just needs to be believable with the characters you have.
I really want to see more games like these two because I think this is where games shine in story telling.
I don't think it is surprising to see games like Until Dawn and Undertale get lots of praise. I hope developers catch on to this. Your writing does not need to be the best if you allow a story to unfold based on the players choice. It just needs to be believable with the characters you have.
I really want to see more games like these two because I think this is where games shine in story telling.
Manny Calavera
Member
Don't even try, I have experience on these matters, it can only end badly
I'm with you, but there is really no point trying to argue it, as it inevitably goes down in hours of boring back and forth with no conclusion anyway. Seen it too many times. When it comes to QD games its probably better to just enjoy them silently and stick to official threads for them to argue stuff.
So it seems.
I've actually been around this road myself here couple of times before already.I grew up playing the old point and click adventures since the early nineties and they have always been close to my heart and unfortunately we don't get quite many good ones these days anymore, so I try to cherish the ones we get. Even with all the problems, plotholes and yes the occasional bad writing.
vpance
Member
It definitely worked in terms of better mainstream reception and sales, but ultimately for me, left no lasting feeling as a story since it was just a simple slasher plot with the standard character types. The gameplay choices were amusing, and had a novel foresight mechanic, but like others said it mostly boiled down to a pick em for death scenes. Didn't have a strong desire to go back and see the different results.
IMO Beyond had better graphics, appealing locales, soundtrack, mocap, acting, more memorable story (however flawed or disjointed) and themes. Of course, the teen horror genre isn't my thing from the jump and I'd rather watch a supernatural fantasy drama any day of the week.
Everyone's going to have different priorities in what they want to experience in these types of games, but for me the story is the make or break. After all, it still is going to be 90% about watching cutscenes and walking around. Even though UD may have had more chances for impactful choices, at the end of the day the story didn't resonate with me, so gameplay taking a perceived further back seat in Cage's games doesn't bother me much.
Story, graphics, acting and soundtrack are the priorities to me. I think the story focused nature of these games makes it too subjective to say flat out that one worked and another didn't, if we're not strictly talking about sales.
IMO Beyond had better graphics, appealing locales, soundtrack, mocap, acting, more memorable story (however flawed or disjointed) and themes. Of course, the teen horror genre isn't my thing from the jump and I'd rather watch a supernatural fantasy drama any day of the week.
Everyone's going to have different priorities in what they want to experience in these types of games, but for me the story is the make or break. After all, it still is going to be 90% about watching cutscenes and walking around. Even though UD may have had more chances for impactful choices, at the end of the day the story didn't resonate with me, so gameplay taking a perceived further back seat in Cage's games doesn't bother me much.
Story, graphics, acting and soundtrack are the priorities to me. I think the story focused nature of these games makes it too subjective to say flat out that one worked and another didn't, if we're not strictly talking about sales.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Campy B tier slasher horror works well with standard video game writing.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Shit, you missed the best line in the game.
understand the palm of my hand bitch! Fuck Ashley.
This guy:
Yeah, he's great.
goes from seeming like a douche to the best character in the game. And he makes friends with a wolf.
Fancy Clown
Member
Don't even try, I have experience on these matters, it can only end badly
I'm with you, but there is really no point trying to argue it, as it inevitably goes down in hours of boring back and forth with no conclusion anyway. Seen it too many times. When it comes to QD games its probably better to just enjoy them silently and stick to official threads for them to argue stuff.
That's kind of a weird attitude to take though, right? The point of discussing things with people who have differing view points isn't supposed to convince or win an argument, but to consider other perspectives and be forced to think about the subject at hand in a critical light and better understand your own tastes and thoughts.
Unless you're talking about random hyperbolic posts without any points where a poster clearly isn't interested in having a discussion, in which case I agree it's usually best to let those sit.
My problems with his games are not really about plot holes or nit-picky stuff (which I agree are the least important things in a critical dissection of a story), but rather more critical and pervasive flaws I can't really get around like stilted dialogue, heavy handed and blatant theming, plot taking precedence over natural character development, etc. It's cool you dig the game though, as the storytelling obviously worked in tandem with the game design in your eyes to make it a special experience.
Elitist1945
Member
and "Fuck nuggets!"
I loved it because of the feels. The major plot holes were explained by that YouTube video with cut footage anyway, so that's how I reconcile the holes in my mind. The ride was still moody and depressing and eerie and I loved it.
timmyp53
Member
Exactly what I was thinking while playing haha.
I competently understand, what you mean. At the beginning every character had some traits, which made many very unlikeable, but also interesting to watch. But shortly before the story deeps into the serious trouble, every one became a mash of blank videogame character with inhuman abilities (young Nathan Drakes, amazing shots, nerves of steel, extreme resistance of colds, wounds, hunger and thirst).
The story should have never went into the action-direction and stayed smaller in theme, so the plot could actually center around the characters. But a videogame without action would be crazy, right.
semiconscious
Gold Member
yeah, i'm saying successful afa satisfactory character development & storytelling. &, yes, imo
...how have we not not yet hit the expiration date on this one?
...To counter the OP:
Why do people keep saying "mask the illusion of choice"? Choices actually matter in this game. Depending on how you respond to people and what route you take totally matters when it comes to who lives and who dies.
Decisions actually matter in this game. That's what makes Until Dawn awesome.
I need to get the Larry Fessenden Collection that recently came out. :/
Why do people keep saying "mask the illusion of choice"? Choices actually matter in this game. Depending on how you respond to people and what route you take totally matters when it comes to who lives and who dies.
Decisions actually matter in this game. That's what makes Until Dawn awesome.
I need to get the Larry Fessenden Collection that recently came out. :/
Jack The Nipper
Banned
It's because it's b horror movie style. It actually has too few choices that really affect the game or take it into different routes or story
Many things will always happen no matter what
It's really hard to make games like this with true branching and longevity.
But I think they should make the game half as long and work on alternate scenarios that really have things being different and acknowledged for character interaction.
Make the game where I really want to play multiple times. As it stands, more than two is really hard for me to try and replay
The beginning of indigo prophecy does it right somewhat.
I think the begging oh a game is a smart place to start. It helps a game go in different directions from the start and would help on replay. Then have different situations and scenes. Then another big route change every 25 percent.
Many things will always happen no matter what
It's really hard to make games like this with true branching and longevity.
But I think they should make the game half as long and work on alternate scenarios that really have things being different and acknowledged for character interaction.
Make the game where I really want to play multiple times. As it stands, more than two is really hard for me to try and replay
The beginning of indigo prophecy does it right somewhat.
I think the begging oh a game is a smart place to start. It helps a game go in different directions from the start and would help on replay. Then have different situations and scenes. Then another big route change every 25 percent.
In terms of Until Dawn vs The Order, I think it was partly just a matter of different expectations. With The Order they were pretty high for most people, Until Dawn had always been regarded as more of a mid-tier title so there simply wasn't as much hype around it that could've backfired. Also, Until Dawn embraced the cinematic/scripted concept more than The Order did which still sort of tried to be a more traditional game at times (not to mention that Until Dawn offered an interactive story with lots of choices, whereas The Order's was entirely scripted). But then, it also simply comes down to bad luck. The early reports about The Order's short length just kickstarted a braindead shitstorm which everyone blindly piled on because it seemed like the cool thing to do, even a lot of reviewers. Most people had decided they hated the game before even playing it, basically.
Manny Calavera
Member
I understand completely what you mean and you've a good point. Heavy Rain is not very subtle and I agree at parts it is a bit heavy-handed. I think it did bother me a bit more in Beyond and I didn't care for the over the top action. Still I did like Beyond overall and especially some of the chapters were great (Navajo Homeless etc). But I was a lot more intrigued about the mystery in Heavy Rain. I'm just a sucker for a good mystery. I remember when I played it for the first time around 2-3 years ago I went in with high expectations and only learned after that it's not quite everyone's cup of tea. My wife played her own game at the same time and it was nice watching her game and seeing how her choices differ. We were actually both really interested in the mystery and surprised by the identity of the killer. It was and still is a special experience for me. But like I said I really want to play it again on PS4 and see if it holds up as well.