Support NeoGAF

[Fhtagn]

Well, I can tell you right now that every enemy in

Spoiler

Hemwick aside from the dogs does have a grab. At least one of the four generic villagers has a grab (the hand scythe-wielders). Not all bosses have "grabs" necessarily but most do have abilities that bind you in place, working to the same result. Big brick-wielding enemies have a grab, all hunters have Visceral Attacks, screaming ladies in Cainhurst have a grab, the ones you mentioned also have grabs.

60-70%? I dunno for sure, obviously, but it's a really high percentage and every new encounter it was something I was expecting and worried about (as well as greatly disliked).

You may just be better at the game than I am. I don't consider myself to have extraordinary reflexes by any stretch of the imagination and as with all Souls/Bloodborne games, the grabs are highly telegraphed.

Still, as mechanics goes, Bloodborne is the "grab" game in my mind. I would say Visceral Attacks really push that point home.

Wow, yeah, you're right, there are a lot more than I realized/remembered. I'm deep in the chalices right now and haven't been grabbed much recently in my game. I did find grabs pretty goshdarn annoying in the UCW; feel like they should be more easily parried. I'd be very interested to see video of how precise the grabs are.

However, the visceral attacks, like parry/ripostes, I don't think of those as grabs; they have a different flow and one doesn't necessarily follow the other; I really like the hunter vs hunter fights.

 

[StoneFox]

Clearly the best feature of Dark Soul 2 is the Ring of Life Protection not being a one-time use and thus being a free human effigy for 3,000 souls each time you died. /s

 

[burgerdog]

Clearly the best feature of Dark Soul 2 is the Ring of Life Protection not being a one-time use and thus being a free human effigy for 3,000 souls each time you died. /s

Permanent ring slot in my ds2 run. I'm glad they raised the cost in SotFS, I actually haven't even found it. Now I just use the ring of the dead for my fashion souls.

 

[Wynnebeck]

Not to mention you can buy a bunch of vials for relatively few echoes. I've no idea why people insist on "grinding" for vials when they could simply buy them.

And yeah, it goes without saying that if you're constantly running out of vials there's something you're doing wrong, i.e. you're dying too much or just spamming them. If you focus on using them conservatively (which by extension means doing everything possible to prevent damage) you gain them quicker than you use them. You also have to know when to quit. If you know a fight is going poorly don't just chug the vials down to zero, just say "ok, no more vials" and if you die, you die. Regroup and start over.

Like you said, too many people think Vials work like Estus, and thus start treating it like them. If you don't make efforts to conserve the vials and always keep your stock full or close to full you're going to run out of vials, but that's not on the game, that's on you.

I only grinded at Cleric Beast and Father G, back and the beginning when I didn't quite grasp that. Ever since then I never had to grind since. IMO the vial grinding is way overplayed.

You ain't never lied.

 

[StoneFox]

Permanent ring slot in my ds2 run. I'm glad they raised the cost in SotFS, I actually haven't even found it. Now I just use the ring of the dead for my fashion souls.

I also always used it but it almost seemed like cheating sometimes because I didn't have to worry about losing my souls in a boss rush or something.

 

[HYDE]

Using L3 to jump is not good.

No joke. First thing I changed in the menu once I started playing...back to the original button.

 

[la_briola]

Clearly the best feature of Dark Soul 2 is the Ring of Life Protection not being a one-time use and thus being a free human effigy for 3,000 souls each time you died. /s

It's 14k now in SotFS and I only found one ring though far.

 

[Cyrano]

However, the visceral attacks, like parry/ripostes, I don't think of those as grabs; they have a different flow and one doesn't necessarily follow the other; I really like the hunter vs hunter fights.

I can understand this but the fact that the visceral attacks already allow you to get a free prone hit that seems to do roughly 3 to 4 times more damage and the blood stab attack seems a bit janky. I don't personally see the need for the Visceral Attack animation aside from it just looking cool (and it does look cool and feel good to do). The damage you deal without it while the enemy is prone is hugely significant by itself however and allows you to dictate the flow of combat.

I'm actually not a huge fan of the hunter fights, particularly the one in

Spoiler

Yahargul, post-Rom

. But yeah, I think this is where we end up in ymmv territory. I'm not a fan of backstabbing or parrying/riposting in the Souls series, as you might imagine. Just doesn't feel good to lose all control of your character in a game like this.

 

[HYDE]

We always thought that IW was the A team for CoD, because they made MW and MW2, but now we know that's Treyarch.

It's the same for FROM. Dark Souls 2 was made by the real A team and is the best Souls game to date.

Not enough throw up for this.

jimcarreydumbanddumbervomit.gif

 

[benicillin]

Just about every single grab in Bloodborne is still more fair than the bullshit they pull in DS2 - those ogres pretty much teleport to grab you because hitboxes and enemy tracking are so fucked.

 

[Kieli]

I like how the first half of Bloodborne is set up. The second half is extremely frustrating.

Also, the bosses have way too much health. 10k is ridiculous when I do 100 damage, tops.

Artorias had 5000, and he was end-end game.

 

[Hypron]

I like how the first half of Bloodborne is set up. The second half is extremely frustrating.

Also, the bosses have way too much health. 10k is ridiculous when I do 100 damage, tops.

Artorias had 5000, and he was end-end game.

Something's wrong if you only do 100 damage, it did 700+ wih the kirkhammer towards end game.

Hell I'm pretty sure the starting weapons do 100 damage unupgraded.

 

[Kieli]

Something's wrong if you only do 100 damage, it did 700+ wih the kirkhammer towards end game.

Hell I'm pretty sure the starting weapons do 100 damage unupgraded.

+7 Leroy's Holy Blade. 25 str, 12 sk.

 

[Fdkn]

I like how the first half of Bloodborne is set up. The second half is extremely frustrating.

Also, the bosses have way too much health. 10k is ridiculous when I do 100 damage, tops.

Artorias had 5000, and he was end-end game.

You should do more than 100dmg

 

[Kieli]

You should do more than 100dmg

I'm one-handing. 2 hand is far too slow for

Spoiler

Gehrblargh

.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

+7 Leroy's Holy Blade. 25 str, 12 sk.

Probably need to use a different weapon on whatever enemy you're fighting.

 

[Fdkn]

I'm one-handing. 2 hand is far too slow for

Spoiler

Gehrblargh

.

that boss loves viscerals

 

[Zaventem]

Only thing I like about the OP is how short its list of "good" DS2 things is.

Those aren't the good things though!

If there really are a whole 2 good things about the worst souls game, its that they allowed you to write longer, more detailed messages for other players, which is in Bloodborne, and that they allowed people who want to play specifically with friends to do so with a ring, which is also in Bloodborne using a code.

Please don't make a game with that kind of clunky movement and yucky animation again, From. Keep it Soulsy. Keep it Miyazaki.

I will never understand why they changed the running animation. When project beast leaked people were celebrating the old running animation returning. Not to mention disgusting buff skins, that went backwards.

It's so bad people made mods to bring back the old buff effects like this and piss colored texture swap buffs. That god we have Miyazaki back

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The "B Team" thing didn't start until people were disappointed with DkS2 after release and cross-referenced the credits to see what the deal was. It was actually here on GAF, so many posts in that thread were like "oh that explains it".

Hahaha nope, pure revisionism here. People were bitching pretty much as soon as it was announced that Miyazaki wasn't the director.

Where it falls apart is that the regain system is super weak. If you get hit with any kind of really strong attack that takes more than half of your health, there's no fucking way you're getting any sizeable chunk of that back unless you're lucky enough to be fighting an enemy that can be parried and also are lucky enough to get a visceral attack in the short few seconds the game gives you. So you're just going to pop a vial. Every time.

Weird, 'cause... that's not true for me at all. I used the regain system all the time. I very often manage to recover most, if not all, of the health I've lost. Hell, the game is so generous that if you parry but trade hits, getting the riposte/visceral fully heals everything you lost, instantly.

There's no real risk or decision to it, 90% of the time it's the clear better option and it's just going to end with you having to farm them again.

I really don't want to say "git gud", but you guys kinda make it too easy sometimes. Your personal experience is not universal, just saying.

Here's what it should have actually been:

• Blood vials auto-refill like estus, but you only have a very limited amount like five or ten for emergency situations only.
• Regain system in general lets you get back a lot more health with a much more generous time period.
• Visceral attacks should refill your health by default. Like Zandatsus in MGR.

1) Ten for "emergencies"? lol geez
2) That would remove the risk/reward aspect to it and would not reward aggressive play the way they intend. So no, don't agree there either.
3) Ewwww no. The less ideas are taken from Platinum games, the better, and visceral already make you fully regain health you just lost which means trading blows is worth it. Wanting more than that is getting greedy and would make the game trivial.

 

[Hypron]

Weird, 'cause... that's not true for me at all. I used the regain system all the time. I very often manage to recover most, if not all, of the health I've lost. Hell, the game is so generous that if you parry but trade hits, getting the riposte/visceral fully heals everything you lost, instantly.

Like I said on the previous page, it depends on the weapon you're using. Good luck regaining all your health with the kirkhammer, it's just not physically possible a lot of the time (ie. impossible unless you get a visceral attack).

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Like I said on the previous page, it depends on the weapon you're using. Good luck regaining all your health with the kirkhammer, it's just not physically possible a lot of the time (ie. impossible unless you get a visceral attack).

I guess that could be. I was primarily a SKL build so I used the cane, blades of mercy, chikage (1h), and the

Spoiler

burial blade

. The last one is awesome for the regain, the others aren't as good but have quick hits so a combo is usually more than enough to regain what you lost, especially if you keep hitting after it's dead for some extra HP gains.

 

[Brandon F]

It's 14k now in SotFS and I only found one ring though far.

Good change. I hated myself for cheesing that ring before.

Though 14k is still nothing, can make that up in minutes with a quick co-op session.

 

[Cyrano]

I'm one-handing. 2 hand is far too slow for

Spoiler

Gehrblargh

.

This boss is

Spoiler

Gascoigne

Mk. 2 with dumb AoE attacks for good measure. So uh, yeah, same strategy. That is, use your gun. A lot.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Good change. I hated myself for cheesing that ring before.

Though 14k is still nothing, can make that up in minutes with a quick co-op session.

A quick coop session would also revive you...?

I almost never used the rings, I wore them as "rings of sacrifice" if I had a significant bloodstain but that's it for the most part. Waste of a ring slot when effigies or coop sessions are plentiful.

 

[Hypron]

I guess that could be. I was primarily a SKL build so I used the cane, blades of mercy, chikage (1h), and the

Spoiler

burial blade

. The last one is awesome for the regain, the others aren't as good but have quick hits so a combo is usually more than enough to regain what you lost, especially if you keep hitting after it's dead for some extra HP gains.

Ha yeah that probably explains things. I couldn't believe how much health I was getting back when I started using the

Spoiler

burial blade

after playing through the whole game with the kirkhammer.

 

[ugh_the_boot]

...Using L3 to Jump

Ewww

 

[burgerdog]

I probably wouldn't use L3 to jump but what's with all the "ewwwws." It's an option, lawd, OPTIONS ARE GOOD.

 

[Toxi]

I think the regain system is fine, it's just a few bosses very obviously aren't built around the regain system.

For that matter how is it more Western-like?

Buzzwords are easier than actual arguments.

 

[AkuMifune]

I'm way late to this conversation, but it's obvious playing bloodborne that miyazaki didn't like some of the changes to ds2 or at least is pushing back against the fanbase in certain ways. And more power to him. Fuck convenience in these games, that just means you're spoiled.

 

[PhilipDoesMatter]

I prefer estus flask. Farming blood vials to try the boss again feelS so ankward. Specially with those loading times.

 

[Toxi]

I'm way late to this conversation, but it's obvious playing bloodborne that miyazaki didn't like some of the changes to ds2 or at least is pushing back against the fanbase in certain ways. And more power to him. Fuck convenience in these games, that just means you're spoiled.

Is this a joke?

Like do you seriously think Bloodborne would be a worse game if you could set a check-point and respawn enemies by just touching a lamp post instead of having to warp back to the Hunter's Dream and then warp back?

Convenience is not necessarily a bad thing. There are actually a lot of elements in Bloodborne designed to increase convenience, like removing the weight system and replacing unique upgrade routes with gems.

 

[PensivePen]

Hahaha nope, pure revisionism here. People were bitching pretty much as soon as it was announced that Miyazaki wasn't the director.

Well obviously people were skeptical (and rightfully so) to see that the series was changing hands. But no, the "B-team" talk didn't start until post release.

 

[QueenOfThorns]

Well obviously people were skeptical (and rightfully so) to see that the series was changing hands. But no, the "B-team" talk didn't start until post release.

I mostly remember it being a mix of what you and Snark are saying. When it was announced Miyazaki wasn't directing people freaked out, but calmed down once footage and stuff started coming out. The true backlash toward the game started when they did the texture/lighting downgrade. Then the game came out and was disappointing in several ways, though still good.

 

[Cyrano]

I mostly remember it being a mix of what you and Snark are saying. When it was announced Miyazaki wasn't directing people freaked out, but calmed down once footage and stuff started coming out. The true backlash toward the game started when they did the texture/lighting downgrade. Then the game came out and was disappointing in several ways, though still good.

Yeah, I would say the backlash was actually initiated from the lighting and texture changes. Which were and are quite unfortunate.

 

[JediLink]

Weird, 'cause... that's not true for me at all. I used the regain system all the time. I very often manage to recover most, if not all, of the health I've lost. Hell, the game is so generous that if you parry but trade hits, getting the riposte/visceral fully heals everything you lost, instantly.

If you get hit by the Watchdog of the Old Lord's charge attack and have a tiny sliver of health left, you're not getting most, if not all your health back. You're getting back a few hits worth at most because the opportunities to safely get hits in are limited.

I really don't want to say "git gud", but you guys kinda make it too easy sometimes. Your personal experience is not universal, just saying.

Please don't start with this, for the love of god. My personal experience was that I was pretty much carrying around 99 at all times and it make the regain system redundant. But I know my experience is not universal, because many people struggled a whole lot more than I did which led to a whole lot more farming that what I did.

1) Ten for "emergencies"? lol geez

Remember you're not going to be picking up any more from looting; you get 10 and that's just it. It moreso depends on how much they actually heal. I'd personally move it back to the flat amount rather than a percentage because BB vitality is OP as fuck. If a single one doesn't even refill that much, 10 certainly isn't a lot.

2) That would remove the risk/reward aspect to it and would not reward aggressive play the way they intend. So no, don't agree there either.

What they intended doesn't really mean much when there are still bosses that only have limited vulnerability times. Nevertheless, I hope you'd agree that there's still a difference between "get hit, strike back to heal" and "get hit, run away to heal", regardless of if you have to do it in as much of a hurry or not.

3) Ewwww no. The less ideas are taken from Platinum games, the better, and visceral already make you fully regain health you just lost which means trading blows is worth it. Wanting more than that is getting greedy and would make the game trivial.

Well now that's just crazy talk. Obviously the genres we're comparing are a bit different so not everything is going to be relevant, but still, the zandatsu was a godlike mechanic and should be in more games. Also I feel like I should point out I never said it should completely refill your health, since that's probably what you think I mean.

EDIT: Also, I want to make abundantly clear here that I love Bloodborne and feel like it's a masterfully crafted game in almost all aspects, aside from a few minor niggles that don't significantly hamper my overall experience. So don't think I'm just some guy who didn't git gud and is hating on the game because of it, thanks.

 

[0coolclimate0]

Me personally L3 being jump would cause so many accidental jumps. I click that damn button all the time when I get anxious.

Spoiler

Which happens to be every moment of a first play through on from software titles

 

[Vilam]

But none of that matters when the game has aged so badly.

"None" of that matters? Yeah, ok. Bloodborne has the natural advantage of being on more advanced hardware. Dark Souls 2 is a better game.

 

[Randam]

Please don't make a game with that kind of clunky movement and yucky animation again, From. Keep it Soulsy. Keep it Miyazaki.

So I'm not the only one that doesn't like the new and improved movement and animations of dark souls 2.

Watching your character run makes me shake my head every time.

 

[eot]

A lot of this stuff returns in Bloodborne, so I don't think most of these are your actual complaints... bad hitboxes are pretty prevalent in Bloodborne, you can warp right from the start, the third phase of BB makes a good part of the game hard for no reason (and hard in a manner in which you have no recourse--

Spoiler

cthulu lasers, infinitely reviving enemies until you kill bell maidens

), some enemies never run out of stamina (the BB dogs in particular will attack you right away if you hit them out of their attack animations). Lamps are often weirdly distributed, sometimes right next to each other and sometimes extremely disconnected, giving the areas themselves a feeling of being inconsistent (probably intentional). Past a certain point, as with all these "heavy" action games, these problems pop up pretty regularly.

BB has its share of specific combat problems too, mostly relating to extraordinary hitstun, being able to be hit while prone (which you can't do to enemies, but they can do to you), and grabs.

Spoiler

The laser traces the exact same path every time, it's trivial to avoid and the bell maidens aren't too bad really. Just did that area lvl4 and it was kinda fun dodging past everyone to try to take out the maidens. Still the worst area in the game but still.

As for being hit on the ground, you can mash O and get up really quick now, that's why you don't have iframes there.

So I'm not the only one that doesn't like the new and improved movement and animations of dark souls 2.

Watching your character run makes me shake my head every time.

I think animations in Dark Souls II look consistently bad. Maybe bad is too strong of a word, but they look off whereas animation quality is a defining strength of the other games in the series. They don't convey the same sense of motion and kineticism. That, for me, hurts the feeling of playing the game a surprising amount.

Enemies also have some pretty repetitive and unimaginative attack patters. Like the giants in Heide's, same fucking three hit tracking combo every fucking time. Jeez.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

If you get hit by the Watchdog of the Old Lord's charge attack and have a tiny sliver of health left, you're not getting most, if not all your health back. You're getting back a few hits worth at most because the opportunities to safely get hits in are limited.

Again, where did I say you were always regaining back all health? Do you really think I don't know that? If you want to argue against me, at least have the decency to argue what I actually say.

Please don't start with this, for the love of god. My personal experience was that I was pretty much carrying around 99 at all times and it make the regain system redundant. But I know my experience is not universal, because many people struggled a whole lot more than I did which led to a whole lot more farming that what I did.

Okay. Still not an inherent flaw of the game though.

Remember you're not going to be picking up any more from looting; you get 10 and that's just it. It moreso depends on how much they actually heal. I'd personally move it back to the flat amount rather than a percentage because BB vitality is OP as fuck. If a single one doesn't even refill that much, 10 certainly isn't a lot.

Maybe that could work, I don't know. From decided to go a different route and I think it works just great.

Also I feel like I should point out I never said it should completely refill your health, since that's probably what you think I mean.

It was. I'm at a loss then because visceral attacks refill everything you've (just) lost if you traded hits, and there are runes that make you regain health from visceral attacks anyway. What more do you want?

 

[Toxi]

The third phase of BB makes a good part of the game hard for no reason (and hard in a manner in which you have no recourse--

Spoiler

cthulu lasers, infinitely reviving enemies until you kill bell maidens

)

Spoiler

I found the Cthulhu lasers to be helpful more than anything else. They're extremely easy to avoid and they blast the hordes of bell-spawned enemies who are inevitably chasing the player. I got hit by the attack maybe once in the entire Unseen Village and was never killed by it.

If we're talking about annoying environments, the Nightmare of Mensis easily takes the cake.

 

[Cyrano]

Spoiler

The laser traces the exact same path every time, it's trivial to avoid and the bell maidens aren't too bad really. Just did that area lvl4 and it was kinda fun dodging past everyone to try to take out the maidens. Still the worst area in the game but still.

As for being hit on the ground, you can mash O and get up really quick now, that's why you don't have iframes there.

Much as I'm aware of all this, it doesn't really redeem the poor design of those traces. Also I thought those traces were targeted at you and not random, which makes them tougher to dodge? Could be wrong, I don't normally spend much time there; that area is pretty awful. I didn't really find the dodging fun. My first playthrough I just ran past everything because it wasn't worth it for me to figure it out, especially with loading times being what they are. After the fourth death or so, you stop caring and just want to move on.

I'm aware of the mashing to get up, I'm also aware that it's not super responsive and even if you mash you can still sometimes be hit on the ground. They should have just made the get up animation faster if they wanted to force you into action all the time. It's weirder still that enemies are still completely invulnerable while prone though. The rules being the same for everyone, to some degree, is kinda the mantra I'm used to seeing in these games and it seemed like it was ignored a lot more here for hit recovery related things. Still strikes me as odd.

Spoiler

I found the Cthulhu lasers to be helpful more than anything else. They're extremely easy to avoid and they blast the hordes of bell-spawned enemies who are inevitably chasing the player. I got hit by the attack maybe once in the entire Unseen Village.

Yeah, I get this. I'm not terribly good at the games. Just enjoy playing them. And criticizing them, I guess. I like them so much and just want them to be "better" in my eyes. I think that's where most criticism comes from, don't like to think people are just being negative for no reason.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

I still can't believe that "Dark Souls 2 has shit hitboxes" thing is still a thing. It's much harder to roll dodge through enemy attacks than it is in DkS1 because it's heavily tied to a stat, Agility, which can only be efficiently be raised by giving soul levels to Adaptability.

Until you ADP is on a decent (~16-20) level, you will get hit when a hit connects you, unlike in DkS where rolling pretty much means you are invisible for the whole duration by default.

 

[sobaka770]

"None" of that matters? Yeah, ok. Bloodborne has the natural advantage of being on more advanced hardware. Dark Souls 2 is a better game.

From what I've played of both BB and DS2 this is a bold statement. I still struggle to "get" into DS2 world after DS. BB takes a lot from DS1 which DS2 forgot:

• Interconnected world which makes sense (this also means less bonfires and no need to teleport all the time)
• Engaging story hooks
• Reduced amount of stats
• A lot less "human" enemies
• Thoughtful enemy placement
• Human and "rehashed" bosses

 

[Windom Earle]

It's pretty simple for me.

- DS1 had the best first half.
- DS2 was the most convenient to play (Warping, Re-Spec, Very stable online, amazing PC version)
- DeSo was the first and has the most nostalgia attached to it.
- Bloodborne is the best overall game

And they all stand on their own and are masterpieces. <3 FROM.

 

[Rurunaki]

From what I've played of both BB and DS2 this is a bold statement. I still struggle to "get" into DS2 world after DS. BB takes a lot from DS1 which DS2 forgot:

• Interconnected world which makes sense (this also means less bonfires and no need to teleport all the time)
• Engaging story hooks
• Reduced amount of stats
• A lot less "human" enemies
• Thoughtful enemy placement
• Human and "rehashed" bosses

Thank you. I think a lot of people confuse interconnected to open world. Some of the places in DS2 that are linked do not make any sense. Compared to BB when you find the link from the forest to iosefka, the creatures inside the clinic made sense.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

Thank you. I think a lot of people confuse interconnected to open world. Some of the places in DS2 that are linked do not make any sense. Compared to BB when you find the link from the forest to iosefka, the creatures inside the clinic made sense.

yeah, poison mill under a lava kingdom..

 

[hichanbis]

The only thing worth being kept from DkS II is the added value of the New Game + (new enemies, new loots, some bosses are different, etc.)

 

[Rurunaki]

As much as I like BB, the one thing the team could've taken from DS2 is the 60fps thing. Also ragdoll > body disappearing in mist.

Edit: Also more covenants that ties to other hunter factions(Powder Keg, Healing Church, Mensis Scholars, Yaharguls, etc.) NPCs in the refuge with their own questline (Eileen was a good start). And of course the netcode.

 

[JediLink]

It was. I'm at a loss then because visceral attacks refill everything you've (just) lost if you traded hits, and there are runes that make you regain health from visceral attacks anyway. What more do you want?

I want to be a badass cyborg ninja even when I'm not a badass cyborg ninja. Is that so much to ask for?