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Why do final boss fights stink this gen?

Stumpokapow said:
Set pieces have replaced bosses as the way to make something feel grand.

If you're fighting a human, how could the boss fight be good?
The last bosses in COD4 and MW2 were actually pretty awesome and believable. They aren't traditional bosses and are probably more setpiece than anything, but they were fun to beat. The COD4 one was so satisfying to beat. The MW2 one was nuts too and was actually a smart use of a QTE sequence and still required you to aim.
 
both Modern Warfare games had excellent ending sequences....i would rather have something like this in most games than to have a full blown boss fight.

Gears of War 2's Brumak Rodeo was an awesome way to end the game...if you can forgive the 10 seconds after it.
 
IMO, this issue is largely due to the industry being in a pretty major state of transition between games as they used to be (a series of levels with some bosses followed by a final boss fight and credits -- an experience more focused on challenging gameplay that continues to ramp up to the finale) to what they're becoming (more focused on narrative, atmosphere, character development, or all three). It's harder to fit a traditional "HOLY SHIT" badass difficult boss encounter into a game in this second group, and developers are still struggling to learn how to create satisfying endings even without said boss encounter.

Just look at BioShock. It was a fantastic narrative experience that suffered at the end because the devs felt it was necessary to tack on a couple more levels and a very timid and unnecessary boss encounter.

REV 09 said:
both Modern Warfare games had excellent ending sequences....i would rather have something like this in most games than to have a full blown boss fight.

YES! For whatever other problems those games might have, Infinity Ward is clearly a dev that's been figuring out how to do an ending sequence in their game that's satisfying without a real boss fight.
 
Casval said:
Surprised no one's mentioned Borderlands yet for absolute worst boss fight of this generation...

KANYE: OF ALL TIME, OF ALL TIME
:lol

Seriously, sooooooo easy. :lol

Skagzilla shoulda been the real final boss, lol.
 
Crewnh said:
I can maybe think of one or two that had really great final boss fights (Metal Gear Solid 4 and The World Ends with You) but most just plain suck. I noticed this after finishing Assassin's Creed 2. Then I thought back a bit more and Uncharted 2, Arkham Asylum, infamous, Prototype, Bioshock, etc... all had pretty terrible final boss fights too.

Add Gears 2.

And yes there's really a problem with that. Despite the fact that I didn't like MGS4, it has the best final boss fight of this gen imo. I liked the ones in Lost Odyssey and Mass Effect too, but they were too easy.

EDIT : Dead Space. Totally forgot this one. It definitely has the best final boss fight on this gen by far.
 
Stumpokapow said:
Set pieces have replaced bosses as the way to make something feel grand.

If you're fighting a human, how could the boss fight be good? Either you make the dude have some sort of super-human powers, which only works in supernatural games, or you're stuck with an anti-climactic fight. What was Assassin's Creed 2 supposed to do? Have a 70 foot tall giant with laser beams? Just like AC1, there's a limit to how superhuman they're willing to make the boss.

Even in supernatural games, there's a limit to what you can do in 3d. You can make the boss have multiple forms to switch up the fight. You can make the boss a sponge for hits. You can make the boss OHKO.

Games like Shadow of the Colossus get around this problem by having the boss BE a set piece or a level. The actual last boss itself in SOTC is pretty dull, but getting through the trenches and climbing him ("doing the boss level") is very exciting.
I prefer the set piece approach for MOST bosses. Vergil or Dante in Devil May Cry games do not have extensively "supernatural" powers, but they do move extremely quickly and react to the player in ways the player should be expected to counter (no fireballs or such).

If you're not going to do that, then I would prefer not to attack the boss directly. Let me do a series of actions around the boss to trigger damage or something. Generally this produces a less frustrating result.

Bioshock is the worst example this gen.
 
badcrumble said:
All of them got stolen by Bayonetta.
Haha, so true. Each fight just makes you go, "how are they going to top this?" Then you fight the next big boss and repeat the cycle. :lol

But Folklore's was pretty intense and well deserving of being a final boss.
 
Talon- said:
Because we've discovered that games don't necessarily need bosses?
No, they totally do! What would Bioshock have been without
getting to fight Dr. Manhattan-Fontaine at the end?!
 
I'm not saying people shouldn't make these topics, but don't you think people should perhaps play more than console blockbusters before making sweeping statements about "this gen?"
 
Neuromancer said:
No, they totally do! What would Bioshock have been without
getting to fight Dr. Manhattan-Fontaine at the end?!
a more tasteful game? :P i know that's probably what you implied too. i hope.
 
Talon- said:
Because we've discovered that games don't necessarily need bosses?


I guess this is one of the reason why this gen sucks so much. Lack of interesting battles. Instead we get loads of generic cannon fodder dumped on us. I blame this mostly on lack of Japanese games IMO because the games they usually create lack "rules" to the universe which makes things a lot more interesting IMO. Western games like Crash Bandicoot and God of War "get it" while mostly others dont.


It really depends on the universe of the game. You are got going to have good boss fights in games like Call of Duty because its realistic and their wont be a "god like" being transforming into a skyscrapper shooting laser beams at you. Too bad because that would be quite awesome and more "video game" like as apposed to the "movie" type stuff devs are going for these days.
 
Bioshock's finale is still my pick for worst of this gen.

Although RAAM sucks bad as well. Soloing him on Insane boiled down to jumping between that little wall while shotgunning him. What a crock of crap.
 
badcrumble said:
All of them got stolen by Bayonetta.

Pretty much. I've seen youtube vids of bosses that would be proud to be last bosses in other game, thrown in as a mid level distractions.
 
Loved these boss fights:

inFamous
Killzone 2
Uncharted: Drake's Fortune
Super Mario Galaxy
Gears of War

Hated these boss fights:

Gears of War 2
Street Fighter IV
Super Smash Bros Brawl
Prince of Persia

Undecided:

Bioshock
 
Off the topic of my head:
Mass Effect= Epic ending average boss fight
Metroid Prime 3=terrible boss fight
COD4 and MW2= Not really a boss fight but a pretty cool more so in the first when it was new
R2= terrible
Mario Galaxy= pretty cool
Fable 2=not all that great but I really wanted to kill that dude after the dog scene
Uncharted= stupid QTE
MGS4= Pretty cool but was frustrating cause I thought it controlled poorly
Bioshock=Terrible
 
PepsimanVsJoe said:
Although RAAM sucks bad as well. Soloing him on Insane boiled down to jumping between that little wall while shotgunning him. What a crock of crap.
I kind of liked RAAM as a boss fight, granted I could solo it now on insane easily, the first time I was like WHOAH. I thought it was much better than Gears 2's "we can make a lightmass bomb!"
 
I always liked Syphon Filter's boss fights, they always made them real bosses by having them wear like super armor and stuff.:lol :lol
 
Talon- said:
Because we've discovered that games don't necessarily need bosses?

Bull. Some games are fine without them, but they really make a difference for someone like me. If Uncharted had more than one boss, maybe I would've actually enjoyed it for more than a few minutes.
 
For those complaining about Uncharted 2's final boss, is that not a huge improvement over the first game?

But yeah, I learned to accept that dev's stopped caring about boss fights a couple of years ago after being disappointed with Bioshock and Metroid Prime 3's final bosses.
 
Host Samurai said:
I guess this is one of the reason why this gen sucks so much. Lack of interesting battles. Instead we get loads of generic cannon fodder dumped on us. I blame this mostly on lack of Japanese games IMO because the games they usually create lack "rules" to the universe which makes things a lot more interesting IMO. Western games like Crash Bandicoot and God of War "get it" while mostly others dont.

It really depends on the universe of the game. You are got going to have good boss fights in games like Call of Duty because its realistic and their wont be a "god like" being transforming into a skyscrapper shooting laser beams at you. Too bad because that would be quite awesome and more "video game" like as apposed to the "movie" type stuff devs are going for these days.
Quite frankly, I prefer having an enticing environment to traverse and explore rather than shooting off different sections of a boss with immense amounts of health. I'm speaking specifically of MGS1, which admittedly is an old ass game, but that's the type of design I would rather see less of. Demon's Souls, from what I hear, seems like a case of a game where every skirmish is wrought with risk, and I'd rather see games follow that logic over NG2's bosses.

Mario games have done a good job of using gameplay variety in their bosses with the simple 3 hits to kill rule still in place. Galaxy in particular made each of the bosses (with the exception of Bowser, really) an exercise in platforming rather than repetition, which made them great.

The "generic cannon fodder" is a fair criticism, particularly in the case of Gears of War, where Locusts literally are bullet sponges with varying levels of health.

On the other hand, Bungie always talks about the spikes in action to keep players interested, and I think the Halo series has certainly done a good job with making each fight entertaining (assuming you're playing Heroic or higher, as you should). You can decide to stay back and clear out the ranks before moving in, throw in a grenade and pop in and out of the confusion, flank the opponents to sneak around them, use cover to take out enemies, use that rocket launcher you happened to find to blow shit up, etc. I wouldn't say each skirmish is an entirely unique exercise, but you certainly rethink your strategy based on what weapons/vehicles you have at hand along with the composition of the enemies. You'll approach a group of Jackals and a couple Hunters entirely differently from facing a pack of Brutes.

Assassin's Creed 2 also is another type of game that doesn't really incorporate boss fights in the traditional sense (haven't finished it yet so I'm prepared to be disappointed). Yeah, you have specific targets and some bigger set pieces, but the combat really is standardized across each enemy. The challenge (or lack of challenge, I suppose) is in how you approach the task at hand with the means around you. Granted, I would admit that some of the mechanisms aren't as nuanced as most games, but AC2 really is such a huge improvement over the repetition of AC1.

Also, from the little I've played of Uncharted 2, it seems like a boss fight would be completely unnecessary in that game. The platforming and exploring alongside the combat was more than enough for the player without a boss that changes the rules entirely. Same thing with BioShock, which really didn't need a boss fight at all.
 
Best boss fight in recent memory (6 months or so) was Shinobu in NMH. I spent four hours learning her patterns, honing my reflexes, playing over and over. The way that she jumps and catapults around the room meant it wasn't a "circle the big guy while picking him off every now and then". It really felt like a close up, one-on-one fight, and the fact that it was much harder than pretty much anything else these days made it satisfying to finally finish.
Not even the rest of the game compared to how satisfying that fight was, and I haven't found another to match it yet.

Galaxy's was impressive, but easy. Portal's was epic, but once again, easy. Sonic Unleashed's was a joke. Not much else I can think of in the past few months that ended with a true "boss fight".
 
I like the CoD4/MW2 approach. Boss fights for most games seems too arbitrary/video gamey now. Games like Bioshock/Batman:AA, for example, do so much to escape the trappings of a game only to about-face back into 1987 for their end fights.

I will say I enjoyed the absolute version of the final boss in the Last Remnant though. I was at the perfect level to where it was really hard, but still beatable.
 
My post up there isn't to say that boss fights don't deserve to be in games at all; bosses fit in games where they make sense. The Mario example is an instance of where each boss is the culmination of the skills you learned within the levels. I would argue that the Bowser instances in SMG were defined by the platforming of the level to the leadup of Bowser rather than Bowser himself, as opposed to the other bosses where it was the other way around. That's good boss design.

The boss battle against the queen's guard in Gears of War II on the other hand is the opposite of what a boss battle should be. The entire exercise is you running in circles until a certain point where you could drop some shit on him.

Actually, thinking back on it, NG2 was a horrible example for bad bosses, since you could be just as lethal to them as any other enemy. I think my mind was just stuck on that subway battle.
 
Not necessarily all final bosses, but Madworld, NMH, Bayonetta, NSMBsWii, Dead Rising, and Muramasa had some incredible boss battles this gen.

Can't think of any more though :(
 
Crewnh said:
I can maybe think of one or two that had really great final boss fights (Metal Gear Solid 4 and The World Ends with You) but most just plain suck. I noticed this after finishing Assassin's Creed 2. Then I thought back a bit more and Uncharted 2, Arkham Asylum, infamous, Prototype, Bioshock, etc... all had pretty terrible final boss fights too.
The main thing I like about MGS4 is that almost all the boss fights are freaking awesome! I wish I wasn't smart enough to use the heat vision thing when fighting the octopus lady. I imagine it would have been a fun boss battle without it.
SquirrelNuckle said:
I wanted to enjoy Batman AA's, but The Joker was just easy.
They need to tweak the boss fights for the sequel. Some where pretty weak. (Killer Crock & Joker come to mind)

On a side note Borderland's ending can suck it.
 
I'm probably going to get totally flamed out the ass for this, but I honestly believe western devs don't know how to make bosses, period. They either mimic Japanese boss mechanics from 20 years ago, or they totally stink.

The Japanese devs out there still know how to make boss battles, and they remain the best part of the game.

I'd love to see a western dev make a game and work on the levels, and have a Japanese dev team work JUST on bosses.
 
I thought the final boss fight in MGS4 was pretty bad. Yeah, it was a cool rush of nostalgia and a nice reward for series fans, but the gameplay in that segment was pretty busted. I can't stand when games deviate from the core mechanics that make the game great in order to offer something different for the finale. It more often than not winds up being terrible. The final fight of Lost Planet is another example.

I do agree that this gen has had a lot of crappy final boss fights, but a recent one I loved was the final boss fight in NSMB Wii. It perfectly utilized the strengths of the game.
 
badcrumble said:
All of them got stolen by Bayonetta.
you raise an interesting point -- one that I had not yet considered -- and for that I commend you

Scythesurge said:
For those complaining about Uncharted 2's final boss, is that not a huge improvement over the first game?

But yeah, I learned to accept that dev's stopped caring about boss fights a couple of years ago after being disappointed with Bioshock and Metroid Prime 3's final bosses.
no, UC1's boss is infinitely better than the tturd of a last bos -- actually, no. my therapist recommended I don't talk about this anymore.
 
Dascu said:
The Wii's doing alright. Mario Galaxy, NSMB, No More Heroes and MadWorld all had great final bossfights.


2cfcltd.gif
 
KefkaTaran said:
Just look at BioShock. It was a fantastic narrative experience that suffered at the end because the devs felt it was necessary to tack on a couple more levels and a very timid and unnecessary boss encounter.
I understand the core of what you're saying, but let's not take it too far. The bolded part is pretty disgusting.
 
thetrin said:
I'm probably going to get totally flamed out the ass for this, but I honestly believe western devs don't know how to make bosses, period. They either mimic Japanese boss mechanics from 20 years ago, or they totally stink.

The Japanese devs out there still know how to make boss battles, and they remain the best part of the game.

I'd love to see a western dev make a game and work on the levels, and have a Japanese dev team work JUST on bosses.

i really enjoy western developed games, but this is so right it's not even funny.
 
CitizenCope said:
Not much Fable II final boss fight talk. It was kind of lame but at that point I was ready to end my journey.
Honestly, I think that ending fit with the game since he was, ostensibly, a normal person. No point in dragging out that battle with crazy wizardry.

That dog shit was the most underhanded bastardry in a game that unfortunately worked. It was especially disappointing since that quest right before where you lost your character's appearance really was an effective risk/reward instance. Wish they had gone further with that decision. One of the few times where I actually considered making a bad choice because I'm so tied to my character's appearance.
 
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