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[DragonGirl]

Respect? A better question might be, why are female gamers less likely to be treated as human beings than male gamers.

Everybody gets harassed now and then right? But the nature of the harassment is not equal. Guys, how often does somebody ask "Are you hot? 'cause I want to fuck you until you cry. Where do you live bitch? I'm gonna rape you." And when you hear it, you know they aren't being rhetorical. Women are far more likely to be harassed in purely sexual connotations, and to be targeted for extremely aggressive and hateful hazing specifically because they are female, regardless of any skill or accomplishments.

Why do girl gamers get so little respect? It's just a small reflection of the society we live in. A snapshot of the big cultural picture.

Why do such hatful, belittling, and aggressive attitudes/actions towards women exist?

Well, because that kind of behavior is tolerated of course, and in the right crowd, encouraged.

 

[angelfly]

Girl or not, you only get the respect you earn.

In online gaming? Maybe at tournaments but online:

You lose: You get insulted
You win: You get insulted

 

[antonz]

Its a mix of situations. Female Gaming Media etc thrive on sexualizing their position so males of course react to that sexualization.

The Internet grants anonymous behavior so people act like douchebags because they are hidden behind a wall

 

[Lunchbox]

im hell dude

they respect me in call of doody

 

[Ulairi]

Gaming is a male dominated hobby. It always will be. There are girl dominated hobbies but we don't get news reports about why men aren't getting the respect they deserve in ball room dancing classes.

 

[Taoofberg]

And girls don't get any more shit than regular people do online. .

Girls are casually excluded from the category of regular people.

 

[cooljeanius]

Respect? A better question might be, why are female gamers less likely to be treated as human beings than male gamers.

Everybody gets harassed now and then right? But the nature of the harassment is not equal. Guys, how often does somebody ask "Are you hot? 'cause I want to fuck you until you cry. Where do you live bitch? I'm gonna rape you." And when you hear it, you know they aren't being rhetorical. Women are far more likely to be harassed in purely sexual connotations, and to be targeted for extremely aggressive and hateful hazing specifically because they are female, regardless of any skill or accomplishments.

Why do girl gamers get so little respect? It's just a small reflection of the society we live in. A snapshot of the big cultural picture.

Why do such hatful, belittling, and aggressive attitudes/actions towards women exist?

Well, because that kind of behavior is tolerated of course, and in the right crowd, encouraged.

I just realized, I've been thinking dragonlife29 was actually you for a while now... Good thing I now have that cleared up!

 

[-COOLIO-]

i just figured guys were being dicks to them to get attention on the off chance the girl lives in their neighbourhood

 

[bhlaab]

Gaming is a male dominated hobby. It always will be. There are girl dominated hobbies but we don't get news reports about why men aren't getting the respect they deserve in ball room dancing classes.

Because men typically do get the respect they deserve in "female-dominated" activities, by the females who dominate them. Where they don't get respect is from the males who do not participate in those activities.

Basically what i'm saying is women don't play video games because they are lesser than a "male" activity requires. Men don't go ballroom dancing because they don't want to lessen themselves by doing a "female" activity.

Both examples are rooted in patriarchal thinking.

 

[DragonGirl]

I just realized, I've been thinking dragonlife29 was actually you for a while now... Good thing I now have that cleared up!

Well...good! I think?

 

[Slavik81]

At least in part, it's because by identifying personal characteristics, you've given people material to troll you with.

I suspect you'll also encounter a lot of assholes if you use a name like LinkinParkFan.

 

[Days like these...]

I think only the girls that belong to the 'gamer' subculture are afflicted by disrespect. I have a few girl gamer friends and neither me or my guy friends think anything of it much less disrespect them. I guess the difference is the girl gamers I know don't let the word 'gamer' define them. Lulz

 

[suzu]

What the hell is with this "you have to earn respect first" and "if you get harassed it's your fault for letting people target you"..

 

[Ulairi]

Because men typically do get the respect they deserve in "female-dominated" activities, by the females who dominate them. Where they don't get respect is from the males who do not participate in those activities.

Basically what i'm saying is women don't play video games because they are lesser than a "male" activity requires. Men don't go ballroom dancing because they don't want to lessen themselves by doing a "female" activity.

Both examples are rooted in patriarchal thinking.

Do men show each other respect in those games? I don't think so.

 

[DragonGirl]

At least in part, it's because by identifying personal characteristics, you've given people material to troll you with.

I suspect you'll also encounter a lot of assholes if you use a name like LinkinParkFan.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If everyone remains completely anonymous, it's assumed everybody is a white, heterosexual guy. This in turn encourages the worst of the dudebro behaviors and says: games are a normalized male activity, everyone else stay out. Female gamers make it known "hey, we're here too, fellow women, it's okay to come join us", and are punished for daring to admit their own existence in public.

 

[Degen]

What the hell is with this "you have to earn respect first" and "if you get harassed it's your fault for letting people target you"..

you gotta EARN the right to not get photos of people's dicks sent to you as message attachments.

how do you do that? just put everyone on mute! avoid this built-in feature of the game! honestly, who communicates anymore? not respected people.

 

[DragonGirl]

Do men show each other respect in those games? I don't think so.

The types of disrespect are different. Can you say typical guy on guy insults are merely foul mouthed put-downs or genuinely scary/hateful threats? The issue if gamer hazing isn't really the problem so much as the substance of what is often said.

 

[Kalnos]

The types of disrespect are different. Can you say typical guy on guy insults are merely foul mouthed put-downs or genuinely scary/hateful threats?

I don't think the insults are ever that scary unless they're based on legitimate real life information, in which case it's usually the persons fault for making it available.

Typical guy on guy insult online: "ur a fag"
Typical girl on girl insult online: "show me ur tits loolol"

Neither is really harmful, one is definitely more misogynistic, but that's because it's being targeted at a women and is more effective that way.

 

[mikeGFG]

The types of disrespect are different. Can you say typical guy on guy insults are merely foul mouthed put-downs or genuinely scary/hateful threats? The issue if gamer hazing isn't really the problem so much as the substance of what is often said.

No theyre the same. The difference being that men have developed a thick skin in response to male aggression in video games and on the internet, and women apparently take whats being said at face value.

 

[Ulairi]

The types of disrespect are different. Can you say typical guy on guy insults are merely foul mouthed put-downs or genuinely scary/hateful threats? The issue if gamer hazing isn't really the problem so much as the substance of what is often said.

I have been called hateful things and threatened while playing on Xbox Live quite often. It is very common for some jerk to say he's going to kick my ass or what-have-you. I think that girl gamers have to put up with far worse as soon as they speak because some jerk is going to hear a female voice and want to either be a dick, hit on her, say sexual things or white knight her. I'm not excusing bad behavior. I just think that being treated poorly online isn't a sign that gaming doesn't respect women. It's that online gaming is a sewar and doesn't respect anyone.

 

[apana]

With changing gender roles and all that, many men harbor a lot of resentment towards women. They themselves may be confused about their masculinity and what it means to be a "man" in modern day society. The tough economy makes this even worse. Lets face it FPS are "male" games and a way for men to feel powerful, their will be a knee jerk response to pick on a woman encroaching on that territory. In real life they can't pick on a woman in such an agressive way. Another reason is that a lot of the kids on live are just plain assholes and idiots.

 

[Slavik81]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If everyone remains completely anonymous, it's assumed everybody is a white, heterosexual guy. This in turn encourages the worst of the dudebro behaviors and says: games are a normalized male activity, everyone else stay out. Female gamers make it known "hey, we're here too, fellow women, it's okay to come join us", and are punished for daring to admit their own existence in public.

I mostly agree, but part of my point was that there's an even broader context to this discussion.

 

[Lesath]

Online, expect people to insult whatever part of you that they can possibly drag up, whether it's post history or your alias. Men insulting each other for being men is like the pot calling the kettle black in most cases, so it usually devolves into questions regarding sexual orientation. If you toss in some helpful descriptors, they're just taking the path of least resistance to insult you. If they can't, they'll make shit up. It's just how it goes.

 

[Cynar]

I'm not a girl gamer but just stick to party chat. There are too many idiots out there. I have a neutral gender gamertag on xbox live and get harassed quite a bit just because of the possibility that I'm female. I find it mostly amusing but I never use in game chat though. Party chat and playing with friends Is where the fun is. Keep in mind you'll get harassed no matter what just because you are more like/y to run into idiots online while gaming.

 

[DragonGirl]

Just to add a bit of a different dimension to an old topic. In my own limited experience, I think the type of game being played also contributes to the level of hostility male gamers show female gamers. I play Monster Hunter Tri online and make no secret about being a real genuine female. While I mostly play with GAFers I have also played with a lot of randoms and have yet to encounter a single instance of misogyny.

 

[Proven]

Haven't seen it posted yet, but I believe this is the ninja character she was talking about designing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUw7tVWxcYk

 

[Nocebo]

I don't think the insults are ever that scary unless they're based on legitimate real life information, in which case it's usually the persons fault for making it available.

Typical guy on guy insult online: "ur a fag"
Typical girl on girl insult online: "show me ur tits loolol"

Neither is really harmful, one is definitely more misogynistic, but that's because it's being targeted at a women and is more effective that way.

Are you a girl? If no, how can you possibly know what it's like to get harassed as a girl online?

No theyre the same. The difference being that men have developed a thick skin in response to male aggression in video games and on the internet, and women apparently take whats being said at face value.

They don't seem to be the same at all.

 

[stupei]

I mostly agree, but part of my point was that there's an even broader context to this discussion.

There's also an even broader context to gender. The female experience of early sexuality is sometimes much different than most men realize. Obviously I don't go around thinking about how I'm a woman, how I experience the world as a woman, but there is definitely a history of experiences that I've had that many men never encounter.

I mean, I don't know many women living in New York who haven't had some borderline frightening experience of some kind where someone either touched, said something, or tried to pursue them. I had a 50 year old man I didn't know try to grab (and then follow) me on the street and tell me all about the sexually explicit things he wanted to do to me. When I was in 10th grade my class had a discussion about gender dynamics and the guys in the classroom at the time were shocked to discover that every girl in the class had been touched at one time by someone that they had repeatedly said no to. Every single girl. Now I'm not saying that happens to everyone everywhere, but I'm willing to bet it happens to more women than it does men. There's a context to being female that makes sexually aggressive language directed at women different than standard boasting. Just like there's a context that makes "ur a fag" hurt more if the person you're directing it at happens to be gay.

 

[Plywood]

I button mashed through Bayonetta on very easy mode. I don't deserve or want any respect x_x;

Ninja Dog

Switch Witch

Spoiler

Sorry, I got nothing.

But seriously, step yo game up.

 

[The Frankman]

waitwaitwait, hold on a second...

Girls play games?

 

[DragonGirl]

There is a rather large conceptual divide that prevents a man from "slipping into a woman's shoes" and understanding what all the "fuss" is about. You can't look at the online gaming experience in a vacuum. There is a level of hostility directed at women that permeates the air in our culture and soaking in it is part of the female experience. Casual disrespect, casual invasion of personal space, casual disregard, casual threats of harm that color life to greater and lesser degrees for women on a daily basis. It's an experience most men would find utterly alien but follows women around all the time, inescapable even in virtual reality past-times. There is no skin thick enough to deflect all of it. You'd have to be dead inside not to be bothered.

 

[Kalnos]

Are you a girl? If no, how can you possibly know what it's like to get harassed as a girl online?

What does that have to do with anything? My point is that people tailor their insults specifically to get under the skin of the person they're insulting. To a guy that means they bring up their sexuality, and to a girl that means they use misogynistic remarks. I don't have to be a girl to understand this.

If we are going beyond insults into stalking, that area more commonly has female targets, but lets not act like males can't also be harassed over a long period of time.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Thought this blog post about girls playing Street Fighter 4 was appropriate for this thread:

http://www.starslay3r.com/?p=1085

starslay3r isn't the best example to use.

 

[Sophia]

I've been harassed a few times in WoW, but they're extremely minor situations. I think it helps playing on a role-playing server. As long as you don't egg them on or feed them information, you're usually alright. And guilds don't treat you any different at all, because females are far more common on RP servers.

Now, on Xbox Live/Playstation Network I just don't speak unless it's friends. ><

 

[Nocebo]

What does that have to do with anything? My point is that people tailor their insults specifically to get under the skin of the person they're insulting. To a guy that means they bring up their sexuality, and to a girl that means they use misogynistic remarks. I don't have to be a girl to understand this.

If we are going beyond insults into stalking, that area more commonly has female targets, but lets not act like males can't also be harassed over a long period of time.

With guys it's mostly random insults, with girls it's clearly more like focussed harassment more often than not. You'd have to be a girl to receive that kind of abuse, and since you're not one you can't know how far it can go.

 

[BrLvgThrChmstry]

With guys it's mostly random insults, with girls it's clearly more like focussed harassment more often than not. You'd have to be a girl to receive that kind of abuse, and since you're not one you can't know how far it can go.

What if the player is African american... oh boy, that calls for whole another level of harassment depending on the social status of the populace contributing to the harassing. Hell, don't be ethnic. Period.

Honestly speaking, women erm, girl gamers are not the only ones who receive a or are subjected to specific/focused type of harassment during online gaming. If anything, I feel all walks of life receive the same level of harassment, especially on XBL.

This whole thread is like a pedestal of sorts. Getting harassed online (or in general)? ...get over it, ignore it or stop gaming altogether if it's that serious. Harassment knows know gender (or boundaries).

 

[stupei]

There is a rather large conceptual divide that prevents a man from "slipping into a woman's shoes" and understanding what all the "fuss" is about. You can't look at the online gaming experience in a vacuum. There is a level of hostility directed at women that permeates the air in our culture and soaking in it is part of the female experience. Casual disrespect, casual invasion of personal space, casual disregard, casual threats of harm that color life to greater and lesser degrees for women on a daily basis. It's an experience most men would find utterly alien but follows women around all the time, inescapable even in virtual reality past-times. There is no skin thick enough to deflect all of it. You'd have to be dead inside not to be bothered.

I kind of feel like I should just let you handle all responses as you're managing to be way more eloquent than I am. (Illegal smiley face goes here.)

 

[Daigoro]

holy crap! its LOG for GIRLS!

waitwaitwait, hold on a second...

Girls play games?

you totally thought that was going to be funny, didnt you?

 

[Kalnos]

This whole thread is like a pedestal of sorts. Getting harassed online (or in general)? ...get over it, ignore it or stop gaming altogether if it's that serious. Harassment knows know gender (or boundaries).

Yep, there's no point in discussing this because it has devolved into a 'you wouldn't understand' series of arguments.

 

[LiK]

Treat others as you would like to be treated. Girl or boy, don't be a jackass.

 

[stupei]

Yep, there's no point in discussing this because it has devolved into a 'you wouldn't understand' series of arguments.

No, no please. Continue to explain what it feels like for a woman to be targeted with sexually charged harassment online. I'm really curious to know more.

You keep comparing it to calling a dudebro saying someone is gay. Unless you are in fact actually gay this harassment doesn't in any way connect to who you really are or things you've really experienced in your day to day life. Most women have been in a situation where they have had someone being sexually threatening toward them in person, whether physically or verbally. Perhaps you can see how this might alter the impact of the words, even if the intent is the same.

 

[daegan]

Treat others as you would like to be treated. Girl or boy, don't be a jackass.

Pretty much this. And as anonymity will always stand in opposition to this, get used to people being idiotic to you every day.

This is why I do not play games online for the vast majority of cases.

 

[daegan]

No, no please. Continue to explain what it feels like for a woman to be targeted with sexually charged harassment online. I'm really curious to know more.

You keep comparing it to calling a dudebro saying someone is gay. Unless you are in fact actually gay this harassment doesn't in any way connect to who you really are or things you've really experienced in your day to day life. Most women have been in a situation where they have had someone being sexually threatening toward them in person, whether physically or verbally. Perhaps you can see how this might alter the impact of the words, even if the intent is the same.

Growing up, shooters and competitive culture wasn't what it was today (I started gaming pre-Doom) but I know my gaming hobby got me called "faggot" and "pussy" and got me beat up a heck of a lot, especially in my younger years. Nobody batted an eye. Not saying it's equivalent for everyone, just putting it out there.

 

[Kalnos]

No, no please. Continue to explain what it feels like for a woman to be targeted with sexually charged harassment online. I'm really curious to know more.

You keep comparing it to calling a dudebro saying someone is gay. Unless you are in fact actually gay this harassment doesn't in any way connect to who you really are or things you've really experienced in your day to day life. Most women have been in a situation where they have had someone being sexually threatening toward them in person, whether physically or verbally. Perhaps you can see how this might alter the impact of the words, even if the intent is the same.

Sorry, I don't see how being threatened in a real life situation translates to words holding higher meaning in an anonymous online setting. The problem is that the person on the receiving end is making the words more powerful than they actually are. Besides, saying someone is 'gay' is often used more as an attack on ones masculinity, encompassing all men. I'm sure many men have been picked on simply for not meeting the standard of masculinity, even if they're not gay. These words are then taken to the online setting, and used for the exact same reasons they're used in real life.

Maybe I should just get on my pedestal instead though, are you a man? If you aren't a man I could obviously see how you couldn't have correlated the word 'gay' as an attack on ones masculinity.

Spoiler

/sarcasm

 

[DragonGirl]

Well, there is truth to the "you wouldn't understand" statement. It doesn't have to be a discussion killer. I'm white, and if a black person tells me "you don't understand racism like I do", I'll readily agree. I can still empathize.

The real issue here, however, is why is this most hurtful manifestation of "boys will be boys" behavior tolerated? I will readily make the assumption that most all of the guys posting here do not consider themselves misogynists and in fact, probably are not. But how many of you have ever witnessed casual belittling of women and just let it pass?

Most hate towards any person or group persists because it is tolerated by the majority, given acceptance through silence. Unacceptable behavior needs to be called out. "Dude, the shit coming out of your mouth is not okay." If even the biggest asshole hears that often enough, from enough people, with enough consistency, he might think twice about harassing people. Sure, some folks are irredeemable, but we are a social species, and what our communities consider acceptable or unacceptable has a major impact on how we behave.

(last post of the night. It's late and my brain is getting tired-stupid)

 

[RpgN]

Well, there is truth to the "you wouldn't understand" statement. It doesn't have to be a discussion killer. I'm white, and if a black person tells me "you don't understand racism like I do", I'll readily agree. I can still empathize.

The real issue here, however, is why is this most hurtful manifestation of "boys will be boys" behavior tolerated? I will readily make the assumption that most all of the guys posting here do not consider themselves misogynists and in fact, probably are not. But how many of you have ever witnessed casual belittling of women and just let it pass?

Most hate towards any person or group persists because it is tolerated by the majority, given acceptance through silence. Unacceptable behavior needs to be called out. "Dude, the shit coming out of your mouth is not okay." If even the biggest asshole hears that often enough, from enough people, with enough consistency, he might think twice about harassing people. Sure, some folks are irredeemable, but we are a social species, and what our communities consider acceptable or unacceptable has a major impact on how we behave.

(last post of the night. It's late and my brain is getting tired-stupid)

I like your replies. You can word it far beter than I could.

Rest well, it's 9 am here!

For an example, see this shit right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FGXqxoLHlI I know that was posted about a month ago in OT, but it's worth highlighting to see just what the bottom of the barrel is. Shit like that is something we should all be ashamed about, and is just an embarrassment to us.

That guy sounds so fake, there's no way this true, is it?

Sounds over top and made to get hits, like a lot of youtube videos.

 

[stupei]

Growing up, shooters and competitive culture wasn't what it was today (I started gaming pre-Doom) but I know my gaming hobby got me called "faggot" and "pussy" and got me beat up a heck of a lot, especially in my younger years. Nobody batted an eye. Not saying it's equivalent for everyone, just putting it out there.

I'm not saying that stuff is okay, can't hurt, or doesn't matter, but I still don't think it's the same thing. Unless you are gay being called a faggot isn't about you. It sucks (a lot), it can hurt, but it isn't you; it's the make believe construct of you they want to bat around. However I actually do have breasts, and people really have tried to lift my shirt in person at random without permission. Personally, I think that's the difference between "hurr hurr u fag" and "show me ur tits." (Not that "show me your tits" is even close to the really over the line stuff that is mostly under discussion.) Which, again: isn't to say that someone giving a guy shit online isn't an asshole thing to do and potentially hurtful. It's not a competition about who weirdos on the internet treat worse.

Sorry, I don't see how being threatened in a real life situation translates to words holding higher meaning in an anonymous online setting. The problem is that the person on the receiving end is making the words more powerful than they actually are. Besides, saying someone is 'gay' is often used more as an attack on ones masculinity, encompassing all men. I'm sure many men have been picked on simply for not meeting the standard of masculinity, even if they're not gay. These words are then taken to the online setting, and used for the exact same reasons they're used in real life.

Maybe I should just get on my pedestal instead though, are you a man? If you aren't a man I could obviously see how you couldn't have correlated the word 'gay' as an attack on ones masculinity.

Spoiler

/sarcasm

Nope, just a lesbian. I clearly have no experience whatsoever with being told I don't conform to the approved stereotype of my gender and have never had my femininity called into question.

I'm honestly not trying to belittle anyone else's experiences. I just don't see how "hey, grow thicker skin" is really all that productive.

Harassment towards a specific gender doesn't need to stop, it ALL needs to stop.

I think this is probably something most people (who aren't career trolls) would absolutely agree on.

 

[BrLvgThrChmstry]

Well, there is truth to the "you wouldn't understand" statement. It doesn't have to be a discussion killer. I'm white, and if a black person tells me "you don't understand racism like I do", I'll readily agree. I can still empathize.

The real issue here, however, is why is this most hurtful manifestation of "boys will be boys" behavior tolerated? I will readily make the assumption that most all of the guys posting here do not consider themselves misogynists and in fact, probably are not. But how many of you have ever witnessed casual belittling of women and just let it pass?

Here's my thing, the belittling and harassment isn't just gender specific. And if anything, I would rephrase that question,"But how many of you have ever witnessed casual belittling of anyone and just let it pass?"

I'm going to be frank, I feel as if you and this statement (erm post) are making this gender specific and it's not. Your gender isn't the only one subjected to disgustingly, degrading levels of (mostly verbal) abuse.

You receive special "treatment" because of your gender? Guess what, so does someone of a different Race/ethnicity, Religion, sexuality. Harassment (especially online harassment) transcends genders -- and you know what, I can do more than empathize because I know exactly how it feels.

The words may be different, the tone... but its all the same. Harassment itself is the epidemic. Harassment towards a specific gender doesn't need to stop, it ALL needs to stop.

 

[bhlaab]

Sorry, I don't see how being threatened in a real life situation translates to words holding higher meaning in an anonymous online setting. The problem is that the person on the receiving end is making the words more powerful than they actually are. Besides, saying someone is 'gay' is often used more as an attack on ones masculinity, encompassing all men. I'm sure many men have been picked on simply for not meeting the standard of masculinity, even if they're not gay. These words are then taken to the online setting, and used for the exact same reasons they're used in real life.

Maybe I should just get on my pedestal instead though, are you a man? If you aren't a man I could obviously see how you couldn't have correlated the word 'gay' as an attack on ones masculinity.

Spoiler

/sarcasm

Goofus calls Gallant a faggot because he sees Gallant as competition.

Goofus sexually harasses Jane in order to establish through a manipulative power play that Jane's entire purpose in life is to be the the spoils of sexual and social conquest.

On the other hand, although Goofus considers himself better than Gallant in every way, the fact that he sees him as a competitor that needs to be smacked down means that in his eyes they are born equal until proven otherwise.

Jane asserts herself in front of Goofus, and although Goofus sees her assertiveness as a threat to his masculinity, it's not for the same reasons Goofus sees Gallant as a threat.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Respect? A better question might be, why are female gamers less likely to be treated as human beings than male gamers.

Everybody gets harassed now and then right? But the nature of the harassment is not equal. Guys, how often does somebody ask "Are you hot? 'cause I want to fuck you until you cry. Where do you live bitch? I'm gonna rape you." And when you hear it, you know they aren't being rhetorical. Women are far more likely to be harassed in purely sexual connotations, and to be targeted for extremely aggressive and hateful hazing specifically because they are female, regardless of any skill or accomplishments.

Why do girl gamers get so little respect? It's just a small reflection of the society we live in. A snapshot of the big cultural picture.

Why do such hatful, belittling, and aggressive attitudes/actions towards women exist?

Well, because that kind of behavior is tolerated of course, and in the right crowd, encouraged.

I think it's much funnier to say this type of thing to grown men.