depths20XX
Member
OK. Still doesn't make them "weak".
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Why do I view most white men that support Trump weak?
- Thread starter wumster3000
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OK. Still doesn't make them "weak".
Well, my opinion, is he caters to conservative authoritarians. And while they may appear weak and/or afraid to those who do not think like them (people who are individualists or just merely compassionate), do not underestimate the resolve and violence they will commit to for their perceived authority figures. We have plenty of examples to draw from in history.
They're easy targets due to a lot of the anti-intellectual rhetoric they espouse. For that reason, it can be very gratifying to look down your nose at them and limit your analysis to just "they're weak and they're angry" rather than take a closer look at what drives anti-establishment thought.
And for the record, current discourse surrounding Bernie supporters is overly simplified in a similar way. Anti-establishment rhetoric was very popular on both halves of the ticket this year, this isn't a viewpoint that will go away once Hillary becomes president.
It's a topic that shouldn't be minimized down to just calling other people "weak". but hey, that's just my read on it.
And for the record, current discourse surrounding Bernie supporters is overly simplified in a similar way. Anti-establishment rhetoric was very popular on both halves of the ticket this year, this isn't a viewpoint that will go away once Hillary becomes president.
It's a topic that shouldn't be minimized down to just calling other people "weak". but hey, that's just my read on it.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Saying that their lives aren't easy doesn't have any bearing on what they turn to. Seeing anything of value on what Trump pushes, especially in light of actual reality, does in fact make them weak.
wumster3000
Member
Calling them weak and afraid is something I'm trying very hard not to do. But what other reasonings do they have to support him? Romney nor McCain spewed the crap that he is. I think I remember Romney putting a stopp to bigot BS at one of his rally's. I respected the hell out him. I would have never called Romney supporters afraid or weak. So why his?
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Trump and the Alt Qaeda are the definition of insecure and weak.
depths20XX
Member
No it doesn't. It makes them ignorant. A lot of Trump supporters are very strong willed people. Something I don't associate with being weak, whether I agree with them or not.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Ok, so your perception of weakness is different from mine. That's fine
veloxStrix
Banned
Oversimplification, a lack of empathy, and general lack of thought? I dunno.
I'm not a Trump supporter. Not really much of a fan of Clinton either to be honest, but that's where my vote is going. That said, I'm sure many of the people voting for Trump have their own reasons and morals that they hold just as tightly as your own. They aren't weak. I would say they are misguided and certainly some of them are weak - just like some people who support Clinton or Bernie or Johnston.
At some point we have to quit trying to put ourselves above others and try and understand their opinions - even the bad ones. It's the only way we'll manage to fix the growing radicalism and general lack of cooperation of the two parties.
I'm not a Trump supporter. Not really much of a fan of Clinton either to be honest, but that's where my vote is going. That said, I'm sure many of the people voting for Trump have their own reasons and morals that they hold just as tightly as your own. They aren't weak. I would say they are misguided and certainly some of them are weak - just like some people who support Clinton or Bernie or Johnston.
At some point we have to quit trying to put ourselves above others and try and understand their opinions - even the bad ones. It's the only way we'll manage to fix the growing radicalism and general lack of cooperation of the two parties.
I always thought they were dumb more than anything.
The grievances that the lower middle class white man has are real grievances. These are largely the people "clinging to their guns and religion" that Obama was talking about in 2008. Largely, these people see a country that is changing beneath them culturally. And... ALSO, they see their personal financial and employment positions deteriorating as their jobs are outsourced, automated, and eliminated. Falsely, these people think that the changing culture and their declining personal situations are closely related because Fox News has been saying it for 15 years. In reality these are mainly two trends happening simultaneously that are not really related at all.
Largely, politicians have not successfully addressed these people's concerns. Now here comes Trump, selling snake oil. He confirms all of these things that these people suspect and comes up with bogus fixes. He's wrong, and he's spouting complete bullshit, but largely other politicians haven't given a competing, more compelling narrative.
In a sense, they are weak and afraid, but mostly they perceive, probably correctly that they are getting screwed in the changing world, and are angry. Trump has capitalized on it in the most terrible way possible.
The grievances that the lower middle class white man has are real grievances. These are largely the people "clinging to their guns and religion" that Obama was talking about in 2008. Largely, these people see a country that is changing beneath them culturally. And... ALSO, they see their personal financial and employment positions deteriorating as their jobs are outsourced, automated, and eliminated. Falsely, these people think that the changing culture and their declining personal situations are closely related because Fox News has been saying it for 15 years. In reality these are mainly two trends happening simultaneously that are not really related at all.
Largely, politicians have not successfully addressed these people's concerns. Now here comes Trump, selling snake oil. He confirms all of these things that these people suspect and comes up with bogus fixes. He's wrong, and he's spouting complete bullshit, but largely other politicians haven't given a competing, more compelling narrative.
In a sense, they are weak and afraid, but mostly they perceive, probably correctly that they are getting screwed in the changing world, and are angry. Trump has capitalized on it in the most terrible way possible.
isn't insecurity an inherently psychological thing in the first place? it's kinda hard for me to think of one but not the other.
if a person believes that, even with their elevated standard compared to most people, the american dream is unreachable then that's an issue that's in disconnect with the general population, who are most likely in worse straits but don't believe alienation is the best way to go about that issue.
there are a decent amount of thinkpieces that go into why trump is so successful but most still focus on the main focal point which is fear. ignorance is the runner up. i know people that are smart and rich as fuck that are still gonna vote for him because the idea that the declining markets in America are attributed to immigrants coming into the country. they disregard how they attribute to our country or automation's impact on the general state of manufacturing.
if trump becomes president, how are these people gonna react when we have more self-checkout machines, more kiosks in restaurants, more self-driving cars, etc. how about we focus on education because if you're so scared of losing jobs then make the needs to maintain jobs more accessible.
gutter_trash
Banned
they are low energy
wumster3000
Member
I think that there are not as many as we think. I think a lot of them are closet Hillary supporters. The ones that do support him, I feel are in the same category. Men more so than women have discussed their displeasure with the current state of the US.
I do think that their are people who will vote for their party(Dem or Rep) no matter what, but the very vocal Trump supporters are the ones I view as afraid and weak. There are some that try to rationalize his thought process, but I still find it hard to digest.
The reason why I think white men that reject this thought process are stronger is, they are going against a lot of what they've been taught or told to believe about others. It takes a great deal to voice your displeasure against your own - no matter the circumstances.
How do you view the people that have abandon the red party because of him? To me, they are very strong.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
Well, Trump's convention speech was 60 minutes of him telling everyone how the presence of brown people should make them all shit their pants, so...
Manmademan
Member
Let's be as clear as we possibly can.
There are NO legitimate rationalizations for voting Trump right now. None.
The man himself is clearly incompetent to manage a political office of that level. he has no experience doing it, and is easily goaded into overreacting by political opponents. In a job that depends entirely on diplomacy, lack of filter is a massive negative. His VP isn't much better and is known almost entirely for trying to push legislation that demonizes homosexuals and not much else.
His policies when not completely nonsensical are toxic at best. Economic, trade, foreign policy, immigration- none of them are based anywhere in the realm of reality and would fall apart immediately if enacted- which isn't likely since almost none would pass congress.
Given all of this, there is still a coalition of people that still vote for him, but that coalition is almost exclusively composed of white males, those who have no more than a high school education, and evangelicals who vote around single issues like who jesus would like more and abortion.
If the refusal to engage in critical thinking in and of itself when making a decision like "who should be leader of the free world" in favor of making emotional decisions based on fear and personal bias isn't weakness, then what is?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
There's no big mystery to unravel as to why some people support Trump; he's a beacon of mediocrity. He's ugly, hate-filled, and foolish but has money, fame, and an attractive wife. He has no filter but also suffers no consequences for what he says and does. He blames America's problems on minorities and foreigners loudly and proudly. When he says "Make America Great Again" neither he nor his followers have any lofty illusions about what they mean.
Blaming others for your problems and failures and ignoring inconvenient truths is pretty weak.
Blaming others for your problems and failures and ignoring inconvenient truths is pretty weak.
I think Jonathan Haidt's six foundational pillars of moral psychology go a long way toward explaining why many of us can't relate to Trump supporters. Why we can't understand them and why we think they are morally reprehensible. I don't endorse the idea that they have an equally valid but simply misunderstood platform. But I think understanding the foundational differences goes some way toward showing the different paths we take to arrive at our conclusions.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/opinion/campaign-stops/purity-disgust-and-donald-trump.html
https://www.edge.org/conversation/jonathan_haidt-what-makes-people-vote-republican
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/opinion/campaign-stops/purity-disgust-and-donald-trump.html
https://www.edge.org/conversation/jonathan_haidt-what-makes-people-vote-republican
wumster3000
Member
Please elaborate as to why the topic is funny. I've given you my reasons for the topic.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
As a white man who personally knows some Trump supporters, I would say that "weak" as a descriptor for describing them is being far too kind. In regards to his female supporters, that's some whole other shit.
I have met 4 type of Trump supporters.
The first and most common is just a diehard Republican who is convinced that Hillary is a close relation of Satan and finds Trump the lesser or two evils. This is the type of person who is listening to Rush and Fox News all day and thinks Breitbart is a legitimate source for news.
The second is someone who is just flat out afraid and Trumps crazy talk appeals to them.
The third is someone who is not doing great (usually in a small town or city and doesn't have a lot of education or marketable skills) and loves the idea of blaming their current plight on the government and brown people. That is much easier than looking in the mirror.
The last is just a straight up a racist. Though they will deny that they are racist and will find a lot of strange rationales to justify their hatred of Mexican, black and muslim people.
The first and most common is just a diehard Republican who is convinced that Hillary is a close relation of Satan and finds Trump the lesser or two evils. This is the type of person who is listening to Rush and Fox News all day and thinks Breitbart is a legitimate source for news.
The second is someone who is just flat out afraid and Trumps crazy talk appeals to them.
The third is someone who is not doing great (usually in a small town or city and doesn't have a lot of education or marketable skills) and loves the idea of blaming their current plight on the government and brown people. That is much easier than looking in the mirror.
The last is just a straight up a racist. Though they will deny that they are racist and will find a lot of strange rationales to justify their hatred of Mexican, black and muslim people.
Well I think anyone that supports either candidate is weak, we have Trump who is basically a complete idiot and you have Clinton who is basically in the pocket of the highest bidder. Clinton takes foreign advice from the same people Bush did (I didn't like Bush either) Robert Kagan, Max Boot, Richard Perle and Clinton supports job-exporting free trade pacts, she even supported the TPP until Bernie made her change her mind. I honestly feel safer with a "idiot" behind the wheel of this country than Clinton, but I honestly don't want to see either one of them be president.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Whole conservative party is about being afraid. That's why they try to prevent progress/change.
Most Trump supporters seem to take the biggest issue with illegal immigration. It's an issue that probably doe not really effect them directly and yet it's their biggest concern. I see it as them picking on a people more vulnerable than they are. Yes I see them as bullies. Bullies tend to be insecure, weak have you. So I guess I agree in part.
Idk maybe it's just me but having a malicious racist leading the country is way more scary than whatever Clinton will do
Maybe that's just me tho
I personally get really annoyed by the pathologization of political opponents. Chances are, leaving aside their politics you can find Trump supporters almost exactly like you. Doesn't mean you have to like their political choices, doesn't even mean you need to respect them, and you might consider voting to defeat them, but the whole "well they're just mentally deficient" attitudes or "ugly guys who won't breed anyway" isn't actually helpful for much except making yourself feel better.
You and most other minorities, as the polls have shown. I find that most, not all, but most that have that sentiment have nothing to lose either way. The presidency will barely touch them and they are too selfish too think about the plight of others.
I'd agree with you if the Republican candidate was McCain or Romney or Jeb Bush. Trump is dangerous. How do I know this? I have paid attention the last year. He is unhinged (read his twitter), bigoted at best racist at worst, and angry.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
His 'both sides' argument is utter nonsense, downplaying almost entirely the long-lasting damage the idiocy and racism of a candidate like Trump could do, surrounding himself with far worse than Clinton could ever do, potentially stacking the supreme court with more ultra-conservatives(he said as much, and his running mate is Pence), and emboldening some of the shittiest people our country has to offer.
Clinton is a far, far better choice, and the hoops some people have to jump through to suggest otherwise is abhorrent.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
Are you the arbiter of what is or is not a "legitimate rationalization" for voting for trump?
MrToughPants
Brian Burke punched my mom
Naive and scared.
tearsintherain
Member
Isn't that the very definition of prejudice, dislike of an entire group when it is not reasonable or logical? No one would take someone seriously if they said most women are only voting for Hillary because she is a woman, but somehow saying white guys are only voting for Trump because they are "weak" is ok?
emails though.
No I'm not being snarky. This is why people tell me they hate Clinton. The goddamn emails are worse than any of the things you listed.
If God almighty himself came down to earth to make a new list of commandments, emails would be listed as number 1.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Do you have an specifics here, and if you do, how much of it will be willfully ignoring how objectively terrible and unfit he is for the job?
wumster3000
Member
I agree. Romney, McCain nor Jeb is as dangerous as Trump. As I stated, I really respect McCain and Romney. I can even throw Kasich in the mix. I really like him actually. Trump, I just can't bring myself to like the guy. He is the most unqualified presidential candidate that I have seen. He has no remedy for anything, it's only, "elect me and I will fix it". How are you going to fix it? This is why I am puzzled by people voting for him. What reason are you voting for him? Is it fear? He is not a good business man - that much has been proven. He is not good with people on a micro level - 3 divorces. So why do people think he will be better at these on a macro level?
Edit: Do I think Clinton is the perfect candidate? No she has her flaws, but she is not telling us to be afraid of a group of people so she can get elected. She is at least trying to bring us together.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Sure, it's an option if you want to put on the table the chances of a spoiled election that puts a lunatic like Trump in the White House. So, In our reality, it's not a viable option, and is only playing footsie with potential disaster.
To vehemently disagree with Clinton is to vehemently disagree with one of the most progressive policy platforms ever put forth by a presidential candidate, which in turn tells me that they want their president to enact as many regressive and selfish policies as humanly possible.
I don't respect any of that in the slightest.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
Specifics? He is for repealing the estate tax and cutting taxes for the wealthy, so if I fell in that class of people, I would probably be more inclined to vote for him, keeping mine for me and my children. Not to mention he is far more likely to appoint Supreme Court justices that are pro-life and anti-gun control, both of which have plenty of single issue voters lined up. I'm voting Hillary he day early voting opens, but I'm certainly not blind to non racist rationales that drive a portion of his voters.
Schattenjäger
Gabriel Knight
Painting entire groups of people with broad strokes is very short sighted
People will vote for whatever candidate they will benefit from
While I think he is a bad candidate, he is reasonating with people because he is different and because many people dislike Hillary
People will vote for whatever candidate they will benefit from
While I think he is a bad candidate, he is reasonating with people because he is different and because many people dislike Hillary
wumster3000
Member
Schattenjäger;215846493 said:
I didn't. I said "a lot/most", not all. From my experience in speaking or hearing Trump supporters, most of them are afraid.
Schattenjäger
Gabriel Knight
Fair enough
i think more people are voting for him because of the two reasons I mentioned than because of the reasons you are perceiving most people to be weak for... You also have republicans that will vote for any republican candidate
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Just because they're not voting specifically in favor of race-based policies doesn't exempt them from supporting a candidate that makes such polices a huge part of his platform, the most visible part. You can be wealthy and not cast your vote for a regressive, hateful party btw, it happens all the time, it just takes not being a selfish and thoughtless individual, amazing, huh?
In regards to the Supreme Court, electing to nominate ultra-conservatives that would ban abortion and stifle any and all gun control, gets about much respect for me as a straight-up racist does. Such nominations would also have a myriad of other incredibly regressive(and yes, racist) consequences that would invariably come along with stacking the court with those types.
Schattenjäger
Gabriel Knight
Well very said and on point
You really should get off your soap box of gun control, what you and people like you want is guns banned, but people like you don't understand illegal guns are so easy to get especially with open borders. So is the US people supposed to be sitting ducks for illegal guns coming across the border into criminals hands.
kingwingin
Member
except when blacks blame whites and ignore the truth.
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