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Why do job-hoppers get bigger raises than loyal employees?
- Thread starter Makai
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entremet
Member
Payroll is usually the biggest expense at most companies. They will anything to keep it down.
ScottSullivan
Member
I'm only now starting to get past tier 1 positions into higher paying/skilled positions. If someone asks me this in an interview, what do you think is the best response?
a fool, crying in their car, wondering how life went so wrong.
entremet
Member
They're not legally entitled for that information actually. If you have former job that verifies it, sucks to be you!
Say you only share that with your info with your accountant, jokingly. If you can pull it off.
You will need to give them a range.
gutter_trash
Banned
Company loyalty goes out the window when employers decide to cut costs and enact layoffs
Clockwork
Member
call them on their bluff, your previous employer doesn't have to reveal shit or risk getting sued by you.
I would look up salary estimates for the position (or something close to) you're applying for and tell them that's the ballpark figure. Maybe go a little higher and negotiate down to what you think is fair.
entremet
Member
Yep. Know your employment laws, friends.
Don't be fucked over by HR departments that are known to tip toe around employment laws.
That makes sense. I imagine it'd be smarter to ask for a raise of the discrepency amount or more at your existing job. If they say no, put in your two weeks. If they say yes, it's not because you waved a job offer in your face.
entremet
Member
I've seen people successfully do it. Usually more established employees.
This happens at my company regularly. Engineers end up agreeing to working insane overtime for months to compensate. Not sure why. What are they going to do? If they fire you, they exacerbate the problem.
Darren870
Member
I've kinda job hopped, but not so much by choice. Each time I got more money.
In my first job though, I got a much deserved promotion after 3 years of hard work. The promotion? 1.5% salary increase and title change! Everyone on the team got 1% as the annual raise, so I got a mere .5% for a promotion.
I quit a few weeks later and they asked if they could match the salary. I kind of just laughed since they had plenty of opportunities throughout the 3 years I was there.
The real reason I left wasn't because of the pathetic increase though.
In the end, especially in the IT/Technology world you need to hop around to make more money. Unless you are in development (and probably even then) you are viewed as a non money making resource. Just BAU. Raises are limited because you aren't contributing any increase in revenue to the company. This of course is a bit BS...but thats how its viewed, you are an expense.
In my first job though, I got a much deserved promotion after 3 years of hard work. The promotion? 1.5% salary increase and title change! Everyone on the team got 1% as the annual raise, so I got a mere .5% for a promotion.
I quit a few weeks later and they asked if they could match the salary. I kind of just laughed since they had plenty of opportunities throughout the 3 years I was there.
The real reason I left wasn't because of the pathetic increase though.
In the end, especially in the IT/Technology world you need to hop around to make more money. Unless you are in development (and probably even then) you are viewed as a non money making resource. Just BAU. Raises are limited because you aren't contributing any increase in revenue to the company. This of course is a bit BS...but thats how its viewed, you are an expense.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
That's not what I'm talking about.
Seraph_Nicholas
Member
Well, people that are willing to go out and hunt for a better deal are gonna find it, right? If you just sit in your office and wait for HR to feel you rate a raise, you'll be waiting forever.
You can also use job offers as a negotiation tactic at your current job.
You can also use job offers as a negotiation tactic at your current job.
This doesn't sound right. A potential employer or someone running a background check on their behalf is welcome to ask for salary info, but neither you nor your current or past employers are under legal obligation to disclose that. In fact I think a lot of companies these days specifically instruct their HR departments to reveal nothing else outside of dates of employment because anything else (ie salary, if you were terminated, etc) is considered confidential.
GHG
Member
I'm a headhunter for a living and have been doing this job for 6 years. Only in very rare and exceptional circumstances will anyone get less than a 10% increase for moving jobs in the industries I've operated in.
Here is the rule of thumb:
- your past salary should have nothing to do with your future salary. Every company has a budget for each position they sign off on to hire for. You should be seeking to find out what the range of that budget is and understand what skills/competences you need to display in order to come in at the top end of that salary bracket.
- if you stay at the same company for say 5+ years and never get promoted you will only ever be subject to ~3% year on year salary increases in the best case scenario (on average). Dependant on how your company is performing you might not even get a salary increase for at least 2 out of those 5 years.
- if you change job on average every 2 years your salary can go up anywhere from 10-30% (30% being if you are getting a promotion while moving) upon changing job on average.
- if you are staying in the same company for more than 3 years without having your salary increase by at least 10% and getting a promotion of some sort, something is wrong and you seriously need to start thinking about moving on for the sake of your career.
- if you have steady promotions throughout your career and steady salary increases in line with your promotions/years of experience you should "peak" anywhere from 20-25 years (dependant on industry) of experience on the job. At that point, the rules above no longer apply and you will most likely reach a point where your salary has plateaued and that there is nowhere for you to get promoted to. At this point your only options to continue increasing your salary will most likely be one of the following: become an independent consultant/ join a boutique/ or set up your own company in your area of expertise.
Job hopping too much can set off alarm bells however and my rule of thumb is that you should wait until you have served at least 1 and a half years before starting to look for pastures greener. That way by the time your job hunt is completed and your notice period is served you will have been at your company for roughly 2 years.
Here is the rule of thumb:
- your past salary should have nothing to do with your future salary. Every company has a budget for each position they sign off on to hire for. You should be seeking to find out what the range of that budget is and understand what skills/competences you need to display in order to come in at the top end of that salary bracket.
- if you stay at the same company for say 5+ years and never get promoted you will only ever be subject to ~3% year on year salary increases in the best case scenario (on average). Dependant on how your company is performing you might not even get a salary increase for at least 2 out of those 5 years.
- if you change job on average every 2 years your salary can go up anywhere from 10-30% (30% being if you are getting a promotion while moving) upon changing job on average.
- if you are staying in the same company for more than 3 years without having your salary increase by at least 10% and getting a promotion of some sort, something is wrong and you seriously need to start thinking about moving on for the sake of your career.
- if you have steady promotions throughout your career and steady salary increases in line with your promotions/years of experience you should "peak" anywhere from 20-25 years (dependant on industry) of experience on the job. At that point, the rules above no longer apply and you will most likely reach a point where your salary has plateaued and that there is nowhere for you to get promoted to. At this point your only options to continue increasing your salary will most likely be one of the following: become an independent consultant/ join a boutique/ or set up your own company in your area of expertise.
Job hopping too much can set off alarm bells however and my rule of thumb is that you should wait until you have served at least 1 and a half years before starting to look for pastures greener. That way by the time your job hunt is completed and your notice period is served you will have been at your company for roughly 2 years.
God Dayumm
Banned
Call them on their bluff, or bluff about my salary?
ScottSullivan
Member
GHG
Member
In my experience, looking for new pussy is a costly exercise, especially if you are married. In some cases you will most likely better off sticking with what you have.
But having said that, it's all about the opportunity cost right?
Dr. Feel Good
Banned
Have you ever reported your salary? It can absolutely show up on a background check.
fredrancour
Member
shrug off their attempt to get you to divulge more information than you need to.
Yes but the post was more in line of talking about people going to new jobs and revealing that to the potential new employer. Or, I thought so at least.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
Because employers don't give two shits about their employees.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Apply for new job. See what they offer you if they want you. If you are considering it talk to boss. Say you love the company but that the money is too good. Ask if they can at the least match the offer.
ScottSullivan
Member
I like what the other poster said about asking for a raise equivalent to the offer you got from the new employer
Which reports? I don't think a background check can get your tax filings.
It's easy to see why, this is exactly what they hope you do. Stay silent and keep working away. You are the ultimate employee.
The last company I worked for was littered with people far too comfortable and insecure to stand up and even ask for a raise. They'd bitch like hell about how much they were on, but would never do anything about it and couldn't negotiate to save themselves.
I resigned a few months ago after getting a hefty rise the year before(they offered me 5% but I negotiated...), and just last week they offered me a new role with a further 25% increase. They would never have offered me more money this year if I hadn't resigned.
I already envisioned the CEO saying something to me along the lines of "Well seeing as you got a large raise last year, we'll make next year a big one too OK?" etc
Sometimes you just have to let them know what they're missing out on.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I've managed to receive significant promotions and raises to the point that I'm making almost double what I made when I started at my company five years ago. I enjoy the work and people quite a bit, so that definitely helps, but it would have been hard to not look around at other opportunities without such rapid advancement. Seems like a 3% or so yearly raise is typical for most positions.
Well, yeah... that kind of goes without saying. You need to have some sort of desirable skill to make yourself... desirable.
Well, yeah... that kind of goes without saying. You need to have some sort of desirable skill to make yourself... desirable.
dreamcastmaster
Banned
My previous job when I outlined my salary expectation and the offer came back much less than the figure at the lowest end of my range. It was still almost double what I was taking home from the current job so I accepted.
When I left that for my current role I put on a huge amount for my salary expectation thinking they would undercut that based on what happened on my last job placement. Except they gave me more than I asked for to start and then after a probation period I got even more!
I tripled my salary in 2 job changes over 2 years, that was never going to happen if I stayed loyal. Internal promotional pay you shit AND they still want you to do tasks relevant to your previous role.
When I left that for my current role I put on a huge amount for my salary expectation thinking they would undercut that based on what happened on my last job placement. Except they gave me more than I asked for to start and then after a probation period I got even more!
I tripled my salary in 2 job changes over 2 years, that was never going to happen if I stayed loyal. Internal promotional pay you shit AND they still want you to do tasks relevant to your previous role.
I used to be loyal to my employer. It got me nothing. No raise in pay for 4 years, while prices of everyday living surged. So I started looking around, found a nice startup venture that offered a 33% raise of my then salary, plus a guaranteed raise of 2% plus inflation correction yearly, plus a company car.
I dropped the news at my employer, gave them my two months notice. They asked if they could match the offer, plus some more, make me stay. I told them that they couldn't afford to give me a 3% raise where the hell are they going to get the means to match this offer, and even if they could, I wasn't keen on working at a place that doesn't care for it's employees.
On the plus side, it made things better for my now ex coworkers.
Point is, future employers are keen to reel you in. A bigger paycheck is part of the bait.
I dropped the news at my employer, gave them my two months notice. They asked if they could match the offer, plus some more, make me stay. I told them that they couldn't afford to give me a 3% raise where the hell are they going to get the means to match this offer, and even if they could, I wasn't keen on working at a place that doesn't care for it's employees.
On the plus side, it made things better for my now ex coworkers.
Point is, future employers are keen to reel you in. A bigger paycheck is part of the bait.
As much bullshit as there is being a teacher, I'm glad I'm doing it and hopefully I can get set up and locked into something long term and get some tenure going.
The business world you all describe sounds fucking awful. Change jobs every two years? Good lord. As soon as you get to know the place and the people you're on the road.
Then again everyone here is rolling in 20-60k pay increases so I guess maybe I'm the sucker.
The business world you all describe sounds fucking awful. Change jobs every two years? Good lord. As soon as you get to know the place and the people you're on the road.
Then again everyone here is rolling in 20-60k pay increases so I guess maybe I'm the sucker.
Tudor
Member
I certainly subscribe to the loyalty no longer being the currency of the realm theory, I've moved jobs 3 times in the last 4 years, each time because I found better opportunities with better benefits.
If you have a skill set, any skill set, as long as you know what you have then you can play your cards at either your place of work or at a new company and be rewarded with larger raises and title hops. It's all about knowing your particular skills, and knowing where and how they are needed.
Basically, don't be afraid to look outside your current industry. There are other companies in totally different industries in need of the same set of skills, and they are willing to pay more for them.
If you have a skill set, any skill set, as long as you know what you have then you can play your cards at either your place of work or at a new company and be rewarded with larger raises and title hops. It's all about knowing your particular skills, and knowing where and how they are needed.
Basically, don't be afraid to look outside your current industry. There are other companies in totally different industries in need of the same set of skills, and they are willing to pay more for them.
dreamcastmaster
Banned
Again, you're the perfect employee to be exploited. Turn up every day in a comfortable rut, reliable and unambitious. To be fair businesses need people like that to do the back end stuff like admin and customer service, but it will be hard to make any progression internally from there.
GHG
Member
Leads? Don't really need them. I know who needs what in my market so it's pretty simple.
I operate in a market where there is a skills shortage and always have done. I also only operate at the senior end of the market (circa 10+ years experience). If I find someone who has the right skill sets and is willing to move to the Middle East then the majority of my clients will be interested. Other than that my clients sometimes will pay me up front to discreetly find them someone very specific.
The main difficulty is finding those people... That's the blood sweat and tears part of the job.
Wrong. Well, wrong depending on which country you're in. In the US, employers can absolutely validate your title, employment dates, and salary. My new employer is doing that right now to me. You have to sign a release saying it's ok for them to check that stuff as part of the offer acceptance phase.
milanbaros
Member?
In the UK they only validate title and dates. Where I work they only validate dates. No bad references are allowed. The company where you used to work has nothing to gain and everything to lose if sued over error etc. the idea they would reveal your salary is laughable.
I work in a big company, manage a bunch of people, in what is a guns-for-hire type of business.
When we get a gap (maybe because someone quit, could be to a competitor, could be for lifestyle reasons), I have to fill it right now or revenue is going missing.
Getting someone good, talented, and with growth potential out of a competitor firm almost always means paying them a premium, general rule of thumb is 20%. Because if someone offered you a job at a new firm on the same pay, you're taking a risk. You won't have an internal support network or contacts at the new place, you don't know your new boss, etc etc.
Short version: employees that move jobs are taking a risk and need to be compensated for it with a premium, highly-skilled vacancies need filling fast and companies will pay up to do it.
I also care about keeping my existing employees, but that's a separate discussion from whether incoming employees deserve a bid premium.
When we get a gap (maybe because someone quit, could be to a competitor, could be for lifestyle reasons), I have to fill it right now or revenue is going missing.
Getting someone good, talented, and with growth potential out of a competitor firm almost always means paying them a premium, general rule of thumb is 20%. Because if someone offered you a job at a new firm on the same pay, you're taking a risk. You won't have an internal support network or contacts at the new place, you don't know your new boss, etc etc.
Short version: employees that move jobs are taking a risk and need to be compensated for it with a premium, highly-skilled vacancies need filling fast and companies will pay up to do it.
I also care about keeping my existing employees, but that's a separate discussion from whether incoming employees deserve a bid premium.
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