Support NeoGAF

[TheRagnCajun]

I wouldn't fret too much. You are worth what you know in the end. People who job hop frequently to advance eventually find themselves in a position they are unqualified for. I've seen these people struggle on the management level. They will crash and burn. Its more important that you stay at a place long enough to accomplish something you can be proud of, and learned what there is to know.

 

[params7]

It is an inefficiency in HR practices. People are not really rational about these kinds of things. People job hop all the time to grow their salaries faster, and it is a pretty commonly known strategy. When a strategy improves a person's salary without really improving their inherent abilities, you know something is wrong.

Believe it or not, capitalism isn't a perfect system and there are tons of inefficiencies.

Agreed, imo. The system prioritizes cutting cost over anything else, and when they have you on lockdown and can get away with giving you lesser pay, why won't they try that?

 

[dreamcastmaster]

IThe down side of job hopping is that if we see too much we won't call you or hire you. I typically never reach out to anybody who can't stick with a job for at least 18 months.

That's why you merge and delete older jobs on your CV with only the last job having true dates in case they check up with your employer. Prospective employers don't really care about anything other than your last 2 roles anyway so pad the old stuff out to look like a stable employee and if your current role is looking short and they ask just say "the job was not what it was described to be and is not challenging enough for me so I've been proactive to find a position that suits me and my new employer better"

 

[TimmmV]

In the UK they only validate title and dates. Where I work they only validate dates. No bad references are allowed. The company where you used to work has nothing to gain and everything to lose if sued over error etc. the idea they would reveal your salary is laughable.

While this is true, they can work out your rough salary from your P45, so its not a good idea to really take the piss in bumping up how much you were earning.

Edit: actually to be more specific, I think an employer can write whatever they want about you in a reference, as long as its true. However its better to not say anything negative in case the employee finds out and decides to take you to court or anything over it. Better to not say anything good about a bad employee, then to say things negative that will need to be proven

 

[RionaaM]

I've seen people successfully do it. Usually more established employees.

Yep, a guy at my previous job managed to cut his hours in half (keeping the same salary, or maybe even better) by lying about having several offers (he had none, and was willing to be out of work for however long it would take to find a new one). It paid off, and he managed to find another job during the morning.

Of course, not everybody can pull off something like this, but it must feel awesome when it works. But then there were also some stories about people who got a raise by threatening to quit, only to be screwed over when the next raises came.

Can't say from experience how well this would have worked for me, because when I changed jobs a few weeks ago I wasn't willing to hear my previous company's counter offers; to me, jumping from testing to development was worth more than any amount of money they could have given me. Though to be fair, they had given me a promotion two months ago, with a general raise last month, so it's not like I quitted on bad terms.

 

[tokkun]

Those Google and Amazon median salaries at age 30 years seem rather low for SF and Seattle considering the quality of talent they employ. And couple that with the crazy stories we have been hearing about working conditions at Amazon, I can see why the turnover is high.

- Not everyone works in engineering. There are a lot of people in sales, HR, etc. at those companies.
- At many tech companies a big chunk of compensation can come from things other than your base salary, like stock grants/options and performance-based pay.
- Not to say there isn't a lot of turnover in Silicon Valley, but another part of the reason that the average tenure is low is that those companies have expanded rapidly. If you double the number of employees in a few years, your average tenure is going to be low, even if no one ever left.

 

[andycapps]

HR/senior management hamstring pay raises for existing employees while signing off on much higher salaries for unproven external hires. Corporate life in a nutshell.

 

[AlphaDump]

Doesn't this mean companies are underpaying existing staff and overpaying for new hires? Surely, it would be better for everyone involved if companies prioritized retention. Seems like a weird game theory problem.

They are leveraging their experience. If 2 people come in at the same time but one leaves 6 months later, that is still 6 months of more experience than when they initially applied.

 

[dreamcastmaster]

HR/senior management hamstring pay raises for existing employees while signing off on much higher salaries for unproven external hires. Corporate life in a nutshell.

Back when I worked for a game shop, I could never get promoted no matter how good the stores numbers were or how much work I put in, what I knew and even though I was recognized by visiting head office staff as a good employee. Management was always externally hired, never internally.

What employers fail to realize is that when you pay staff ow wages it's very easy for them to be tempted away by a comparatively small pay increase at another job. As you earn more the amount to tempt you away gets higher so you'd really need a lot before you moved.

 

[Melon Husk]

Good companies do prioritize retention. People don't leave Google to get raises elsewhere.

Most companies are poorly managed, because most people don't really know how to manage, and MBA programs were designed for managing staffs made up of unskilled labor, so almost everything they say is wrong in an environment where you're mostly managing professionals.

Back when I worked for a game shop, I could never get promoted no matter how good the stores numbers were or how much work I put in, what I knew and even though I was recognized by visiting head office staff as a good employee. Management was always externally hired, never internally.

What employers fail to realize is that when you pay staff ow wages it's very easy for them to be tempted away by a comparatively small pay increase at another job. As you earn more the amount to tempt you away gets higher so you'd really need a lot before you moved.

Hear, hear.

 

[Coriolanus]

What employers fail to realize is that when you pay staff ow wages it's very easy for them to be tempted away by a comparatively small pay increase at another job. As you earn more the amount to tempt you away gets higher so you'd really need a lot before you moved.

And what they do realize is that there's an idiot working his ass off because he believes in his heart of hearts that if he just works hard enough he'll eventually reach the a carrot on a stick, so might as well use him for all he's worth.

I mean, your logic is correct, but in their mind, so is theirs and they're considering that the profit they derive from abusing people like you > the cost of giving people a raise and getting new hires.

 

[whatsinaname]

- Not everyone works in engineering. There are a lot of people in sales, HR, etc. at those companies.
- At many tech companies a big chunk of compensation can come from things other than your base salary, like stock grants/options and performance-based pay.
- Not to say there isn't a lot of turnover in Silicon Valley, but another part of the reason that the average tenure is low is that those companies have expanded rapidly. If you double the number of employees in a few years, your average tenure is going to be low, even if no one ever left.

That makes sense, I guess I was a bit myopic only thinking of jobs profiles similar to mine.

But I still feel the base salaries are a bit low considering many of the recruiting, security and other warehouse/data center jobs at Amazon and Google are done by contractors. I wonder if their wages are included in calculating that median.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

I can speak for myself here. A significant part of my rationale to leave a job is due to salary, but also requiring skills, meeting and networking with new people, learning of even more opportunities but most importantly, to show growth on my resume. I actually start a new job on September 8th in downtown Chicago. It's in my field of healthcare and it represents a 40% raise compared to what I make now. That said, I'm already looking at steps beyond this step. You are a fool if you do otherwise. I'm fortunate that in healthcare, options are wide open for me in that regard so I'm always going to keep one eye open. This company will get a solid 2-2.5 years out of me and then it's time to divert my attention to something else. I'm all about the career climb, scratching and clawing my way to the top somewhere. That said as well, you have to know your worth. I know that I am a highly sought commodity. Remember, that's what you are, a commodity. Continuing on, My job search lasted two weeks before I get this one. I'm a mercenary for hire, I know that, my company knows that. I'll give you a solid 2-3 years then it's on to the next one. I'm a change agent, you get your results, both my history and references will attest to that but you know the ride won't be long so let the good times roll for that duration. Also, about friends, if I haven't known you since I was like 12, I'm not going to rock with you on that kind of level anyways. I'm one of the coolest, most laid back people you'll ever meet and I'm friendly, but I'm not your friend. I'm here to get a paycheck while I'm scouting the next location I'll land at.

Like a lot of other people have already said, you have to look out for you because your company/boss damn sure isn't going to do it.

 

[captive]

They lie about their old salary. Current employees can't pull that trick.

This kinda sums it up.

no it really doesn't.


Do I add a little extra to my salary when interviewing or asked? Sure, but usually only 2 or 3k. The salary bumps I've gotten from job hopping have been quite substantial to what I was actually making and the "fake salary." Minimum 10% most recently and the last few years 20-25%.


It absolutely is a problem with loyalty. Companies want it, but don't want to give anything in return. Like my dad always said, if you want loyalty, get a dog.
It would be cheaper in the long run if they realized this as it takes anywhere from 3-9 months for a person to really fully grasp a job(in the IT world at least), plus recruiting time, interviewing time, plus time that position is spent empty.

 

[razgriz417]

Yep. Know your employment laws, friends.

Don't be fucked over by HR departments that are known to tip toe around employment laws.

I work in HR and for previous employment verifications, we only give out when the employee started and ended and what the title was. If they want to know salary, they either need to give us a # and we will confirm or deny the #, or fax a written request over so we have it in writing (and the majority will never go to the effort of doing so)

Most competent HR dept will not just give out your salary

 

[maximum360]

Doesn't this mean companies are underpaying existing staff and overpaying for new hires? Surely, it would be better for everyone involved if companies prioritized retention. Seems like a weird game theory problem.

Employers sometimes think the grass is greener on the other side.

 

[mhayes86]

In some industries it can be due to competition. If you have desirable skills and multiple employers show interest, you can negotiate higher salaries and see which one offers the most. Sticking with a company, you'll typically only receive increases based on a percentage of your current salary, unless you get promoted and bumped up a pay grade.

 

[Ingeniero]

In my case it's because of the need of the companies for good profesionals when the market/business is good, and they have to pay big bucks to take key personel from rival companies.
When the market is low you don't see this very often, people are fired instead.

I'm in the engineering/construction business btw.

 

[Fenderputty]

Companies pay market value for external hires. Very few try to keep tallest at market value once hired. Everyone I know has gotten raises by transferring jobs.

 

[Moon Patrol Pilot]

Wrong. Well, wrong depending on which country you're in. In the US, employers can absolutely validate your title, employment dates, and salary. My new employer is doing that right now to me. You have to sign a release saying it's ok for them to check that stuff as part of the offer acceptance phase.

Even if you sign that release your former company is not obligated to reveal salary information (and most likely won't). But it does allow your new company to ask you to provide recent check stubs or W2.

 

[TouchMyBox]

I worked a job at Home Depot coming out of High School, and the starting wages increased faster than most non-specialist position pay raises, so people were very often training new employees who were making 10-25% more than them.

lol retail.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Even if you sign that release your former company is not obligated to reveal salary information (and most likely won't). But it does allow your new company to ask you to provide recent check stubs or W2.

A company tried to do that to me, I gave them my check stubs and then they proceeded to lowball the fuck out of me on the offer. Tried to just give me a 4k raise. Told them to fuck off. Any company that bases our pay based on previous pay are a bunch of fucking losers and you should never work for them in the first place.

 

[Azih]

HR is supposed to maintain a consistent pay raise/bonus schedule for all current employees but try to get the best new hires

 

[Missile Defense]

Like everyone else is saying, just want to add another voice to this. The only way you are going to get big raises is in very special cases.... unless you simply change jobs.

Pro-tip:

Get a job and work there for 2 years. After 2 years consider staying for 1 more year, otherwise get out and find a better job. If you can't find a better job stay on again but never go more than 4 years unless you are trying to retire with the company.

TLDR:

Find a new job within 4 years or you have no reason to complain about why your pay is lower that others.

 

[The Shadow]

Doesn't this mean companies are underpaying existing staff and overpaying for new hires? Surely, it would be better for everyone involved if companies prioritized retention. Seems like a weird game theory problem.

Loyal employees aren't as promotion or salary driven. Although they might get salty and bitter about not getting a raise, or passed up for a raise by someone else, they never make any real moves to get that raise either.

People who jump are more motivated. They're willing to move to a different job or even a different city to pursue that increased wage.

Like everyone else is saying, just want to add another voice to this. The only way you are going to get big raises is in very special cases.... unless you simply change jobs.

Pretty much this. Companies hire a secretary because they need a secretary. They don't hire a secretary with the expectation that he/she will become CEO in 20 years. Just doesn't make sense. If you want to move up, you have to get a new position.

 

[The Albatross]

The reason job hoppers get more money is that nobody (or very few people ) take a job for less or the same money that they were making previously, and if you want to attract talent, you have to pay them. If you have talent, you have less to do to keep them there.. BUT most good companies find ways to increase the salaries of their current talent.

Bad companies never look at it and they go out of business.

Also, it's wrong to think that "loyal employees are always good for a company, new employees are not good." Getting fresh talent in and moving talent out can be good for a company. People get comfortable and they get set in their ways and it's bad for a company when the company gets comfortable and set in its ways... I'm sure most people who start somewhere new have run into the problem where you have a good idea and someone shuts it down saying "That's not how we do things here" or "you have to follow this process." Keeping the process has value, sure, but being open to new ideas and ideas from competitors is also important.

Good companies do prioritize retention. People don't leave Google to get raises elsewhere.

Most companies are poorly managed, because most people don't really know how to manage, and MBA programs were designed for managing staffs made up of unskilled labor, so almost everything they say is wrong in an environment where you're mostly managing professionals.

People job hop a ton in silicon valley, but it's also very common there. Staying at a company for more than 3 years is pretty rare.

But like you said, some companies have good methods of keeping people around. Mine has a lucrative bonus system that gets progressively better based on how long you're at the company and how well you perform. It means that after 2, 3 years you're making considerably more money than when you started, even if your base salary only ticks up by 3-4% a year.

So, if I go to apply at another company, when I tell them my salary demands, I'm going to tell them my base salary + my bonus is what I make in a year. If they can't meet or exceed that, then I wouldn't work there.

 

[jmdajr]

Everyone is different. Do whatever matters to you. If it's eating you that much inside maybe it's time to move on.

Some folks are laid back and get treated well enough at their job that they stick around. Sometimes money isn't everything if you can find a low stress job that you actually like.

But sure, if you are miserable..no reason to suffer unless you have no other options.

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

In my experience, always job hop at least every 5 years.

Not just for the salary but also experience and new connections.

 

[crpav]

I agree that employers should treat outstanding current employees better but so many companies don't because they feel then need to make more money for the executives and could care less for the bottom tier workers.

My situation was I worked for a large Medical company as an IT specialist. I was hired for a remote smaller clinic 100 miles away from the main hospital and such. We merged and grew and built a super clinic here. It went from maybe 40 computers to about 250 computers. More users, printers, IT devices, switches, phone system and everything else.

I did awesome and always got good reviews. Didn't need to be "babysat" as my boss said in last review and handled things well here myself. I did so much of the setup of the new clinic. I knew the ins and outs of the switches, security system, audio and video(polycom) and so much more.

Well I saw a new opportunity for a government IT Specialist position and applied just to see my options and the pay and benefits were much better. I still loved my old job but hey got to look out for myself and family. I was offered the job, they offered an amount and I counter offered...high, gut they agreed so I could not turn down. I mean $20,000 a year more, fully paid family health insurance. 18% of salary a month to retirement and so much more. When I announced I was leaving and it was announced to the providers and everyone at the clinic they all were shocked and said no way could I leave.

A high up from the main hospital talked to me and I said I would stay if some small things changed(pay of course and a supervisor type role). They tried but in the end whoever oversees IT would not budge at all. Heck I was willing to come back for much less than I make now but more than I made. Nope would not even consider it. I felt insulted since I know I was worth more than what I made and much more than the .40 cent raise a year.

I still fear that I could be let go here as I am still in my 6 month probation period and still trying to fit in and that's life but I just feel that too many companies don't value their great employees and let them go to save money.

 

[Opiate]

So, I sympathize with those who wish that loyalty was worth something in the marketplace. I think it would make a better world if this type of loyalty was rewarded, and it's one of the few things I believe Asian market economies do better than Western market economies.

But the reality is that this is not the case, and wishing it to be true will not make it so. So you can either spend your life trying to change this reality -- a noble goal, surely, but one that would take decades of effort to even budge remotely -- or accept this reality and work with it.

In orientation, whatever company you work for will tell you that you're all a big family now, and that you're part of an important team, and so forth. The reality is almost certainly that you're a cog in a wheel, a data point on a spreadsheet, and as soon as the math on the spreadsheet no longer adds up for them, you will be replaced or let go.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

Let's ask Michael. Dude came in having done no work and was making 180,000; 10,000 more than a guy who was the lead engineer.

These things need to be taken to HR and the CEO.

 

[ghostofsparta]

I too hate how current employees get fucked.

I've been at my current company for 2 years and I know I only get paid 10% more than the new hires even though I have sooo much more knowledge than them.

Job hopping is the way to go.

 

[RiccochetJ]

no it really doesn't.


Do I add a little extra to my salary when interviewing or asked? Sure, but usually only 2 or 3k. The salary bumps I've gotten from job hopping have been quite substantial to what I was actually making and the "fake salary." Minimum 10% most recently and the last few years 20-25%.


It absolutely is a problem with loyalty. Companies want it, but don't want to give anything in return. Like my dad always said, if you want loyalty, get a dog.
It would be cheaper in the long run if they realized this as it takes anywhere from 3-9 months for a person to really fully grasp a job(in the IT world at least), plus recruiting time, interviewing time, plus time that position is spent empty.

I do think that loyalty is ignored and underrated by companies. But you should stop telling employers what you're actually making with a little bump. To be honest, I haven't heard the question of "How much are you making?" But rather, "What are your salary expectations?" Telling them what I think I should get working for them has worked wonderfully for me so far.

 

[Catdaddy]

I have 20+ years at a Fortune 100 company as an underwriter. I make good money + a nice quarterly bonus. I’ve know and kept in touch with numerous people that have job hopped and with maybe an exception of 2 people, they all regretted hopping to the new company. I’ve thought about on several occasions but I’m just comfortable in my job, I know how our system works and know my job well enough with the exception of “has to be done now moments” work 40 hour weeks with maybe an hour or two of casual OT. Moving to a new company, means learning new policies, procedures, culture and management. Management here is for the most part solid, they got rid of most of the bad/lazy managers during the economic downturn in the mid/late 2000s. We also have a strong HR department that is employee friendly but at the same time will get rid of poor performers /dead weight. I’ve been approached by headhunters and listened to what they have to say, but will take a large pay bump + vacation match (6 weeks) for me to consider leaving here.

Basically, too comfortable in my job to hop, even if means a moderate raise.

 

[The Albatross]

So, I sympathize with those who wish that loyalty was worth something in the marketplace. I think it would make a better world if this type of loyalty was rewarded, and it's one of the few things I believe Asian market economies do better than Western market economies.

But the reality is that this is not the case, and wishing it to be true will not make it so. So you can either spend your life trying to change this reality -- a noble goal, surely, but one that would take decades of effort to even budge remotely -- or accept this reality and work with it.

A reality is that loyalty is often bad for a business as well. There are two stereotypes of Asian businesses (which both have elements of truth to them), that employees are loyal to the company, but then the flipside of that, is that they are resistant to change. Long tenure of employees can be good in some respects, but it creates a very insular culture that is resistant to change and stuck in its ways. It's important to form a business culture that is always evolving and adapting ideas from other companies, and one of the most effective ways to do that is to bring in talent from other companies and necessarily be willing to let talent walk to other companies.

Many of us have probably worked someplace where you feel like you're an outsider and unable to affect change, that there's a cabal of employees who are unwilling to do things differently because "this is how we've always done it here" or "that's not the way people do things here," or something. This is a damaging idea but it's very prevalent in organizations that have few shakeups, and particularly typifies certain industries like, say, higher education and government (which has very low turnover, yet is inefficient and stuck in the past).

 

[entremet]

I thought the standard in most cases is that the old employer has to be truthful and stick to factual information. I'm not sure revealing salary info is illegal or anything.

That's not to say former employers just frequently stick to basic info like titles and dates of employment to avoid saying something potentially not factual.

And if the new employer asks for verification from you directly through a W2 or tax return? Although if they did, its probably a big red flag not to move forward with them.

Edit: Unless the old company has a specific policy on what is said during verification/reference checking thet they violated or you have negotiated what they will say prior to you leaving.

They can verify employment, but getting salary info is trickier. People just don't give out salary over the phone like that.

 

[AstroNut325]

This thread really opened my eyes.

I need to start looking elsewhere. 10 years of my career in one company and I don't feel I get what I deserve.

 

[Mengy]

You have it backward. People that move around more generally are more skilled or at the very least don't have trouble finding work and therefore get paid more for retention.

In my experience this is certainly not the case. The job hoppers are only skilled at padding resumes and taking on more responsibilities while not accomplishing much of anything at all. They care very little for actual quality work, and are only in it to make themselves look better.

It's actually hurt our company on more than a few occasions.

 

[Koriandrr]

In my experience this is certainly not the case. The job hoppers are only skilled at padding resumes and taking on more responsibilities while not accomplishing much of anything at all. They care very little for actual quality work, and are only in it to make themselves look better.

It's actually hurt our company on more than a few occasions.

in my experience it's kind of the opposite.
Although they are certainly better at selling themselves and knowing what to say to make themselves look amazing, in most cases I've seen they've been in fact very good workers.

 

[whatsinaname]

nm.

 

[Sydle]

In my experience loyalty wasn't worth anything. Even blowing out quarterly goals consistently for years, getting exceptional performance reviews, getting high marks on my annual team's review of me as a manager, being the first one in and the last one out, etc. didn't help.

I was getting paid below the national average for my skill set and it wasn't until I threatened to leave that they gave me a raise. Significant as the raise was, and even with the awarded stock options, it was still below the average. Meanwhile, new employees with less experience were being hired with salaries tens of thousands of dollars above mine. I left for another job and finally got my salary in line with what I should be making.

 

[entremet]

This thread really opened my eyes.

I need to start looking elsewhere. 10 years of my career in one company and I don't feel I get what I deserve.

Always Be Interviewing.

Even if you don't take the position.

First, for practice. It's easy to get out of interview practice. Good interviewing is tough.

Second, to know your value.

Third, to open more growth opportunities if you do get a offer.

Another is networking. You're meeting lots of new people--recruiters, managers, etc.

 

[Valus]

I almost doubled my salary when changing jobs last year by lying about my salary. It feels shady but they would've hired me for way less if I was honest about it so fuck that.

I agree that changing jobs is really the best way to get a raise, especially if you're in a corporate industry. I'm probably going to change jobs again sometime in 2016.

 

[Wellington]

I've been with my company 14 years. I asked for a raise once and got it. Last year I got a monster raise without asking.

The way I see it it's like sports contracts. Coming out of college I was on a rookie deal so they wanted to extract the value themselves and mold me into their image and likeness. After that you gotta go out and get your own.

Personally though, you should always know your worth based on your performance and industry standards. If you're paid below it just ask for more money.

 

[RustyNails]

In my experience this is certainly not the case. The job hoppers are only skilled at padding resumes and taking on more responsibilities while not accomplishing much of anything at all. They care very little for actual quality work, and are only in it to make themselves look better.

It's actually hurt our company on more than a few occasions.

Im not sure what makes you say that. Hopping jobs allows you to pick up technology, tools and skills that is otherwise not available to you at one company unless it's a really forward thinking dotcom. I'm in third company in the past 5 years and if I stuck with the first company, I'd have still been stuck with the less salary and limited skills/tools. Today when I market my resume, I have so many skills under my belt that I have to decide which are relevant to the job I'm applying. The days of "employee loyalty" are gone. Employers are not kings and we are not their subjects (sadly opposite mentality is shared by lot of Gen X), and we should be free to leave them if we find more exciting jobs that help us really grow.

 

[BertramCooper]

These days there's very little incentive to be loyal to one's employer.

I'm relatively content with my current job and my current salary, but if I get a better offer, I'm gone. No question.

 

[Wellington]

These days there's very little incentive to be loyal to one's employer.

I'm relatively content with my current job and my current salary, but if I get a better offer, I'm gone. No question.

I disagree. I am 32, my total time with my company is 14 years including my time as an intern. They have pushed me into bigger roles and expanded my responsibilities in a direct attempt to train me for a future leadership of the company position. I am a hard worker and it feels like any new program they want to roll out start at my projects with me. My whole career I have felt like if I ever needed anything I could just ask any higher up, not just the ones I have worked with.

I have an interest in the company and want to make it better, therefore the company has an interest in me and wants me to learn and grow. I see that as mutually beneficial

 

[dreamcastmaster]

In my experience this is certainly not the case. The job hoppers are only skilled at padding resumes and taking on more responsibilities while not accomplishing much of anything at all. They care very little for actual quality work, and are only in it to make themselves look better.

It's actually hurt our company on more than a few occasions.

Don't agree with this, you sound salty about something though.

 

[SummitAve]

Don't agree with this, you sound salty about something though.

You don't agree with his experience? He's salty about the experience he just detailed.

 

[Mengy]

Don't agree with this, you sound salty about something though.

Not being salty at all, just stating what our experience has been with periodic "job hoppers". They seem less interested in doing actual good work and improving our facility and far more interested in bettering their own resume. Especially when contrasted with the long term employees here who actually want to improve things and do good work. Their behavior is often extremely selfish and self serving.

That's been our experience here in Pennsylvania.