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[BobLoblaw]

All I know is that I wish this thread popped up a few years ago. I've been at my current company for 9 years (finally in the process of starting a new job) and I actually watched one person come into my department, trained them, and watched as they got promoted (and I ended up reporting to them for a while). It wasn't because of skills, it was because she was friends with a higher level manager in the department.

Bottom line is loyalty is overrated. If you're happy with your environment, then have fun. Just know that you should never shut the door on looking elsewhere if money is important to you.

 

[The Maverick]

Because you're loyal. You'll ask for a raise, they'll explain why they can't give you one. You'll say "I understand" and continue to bust your ass. They know you aren't looking for other jobs, you're completely comfortable in your current position and they will continue to take advantage of your skillset.

Yup. Loyal dogs never leave the house. Smart employees go wherever is best for them.

 

[Junior Mint]

Not being salty at all, just stating what our experience has been with periodic "job hoppers". They seem less interested in doing actual good work and improving our facility and far more interested in bettering their own resume. Especially when contrasted with the long term employees here who actually want to improve things and do good work. Their behavior is often extremely selfish and self serving.

That's been our experience here in Pennsylvania.

In my experience, I find lifers who end up in a single job for a long time become lazy and are almost always not accepting of improvements or changes to the way things are done.

Someone who job hops (and I'm talking more like 2-3 years at each company, not 7 months) gets exposed to different ways of doing things, different tools, different personalities and has a better understanding of what works better in certain situations, how best to manage communications with people of different backgrounds, how to adapt to different businesses/processes, etc.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

In my experience, I find lifers who end up in a single job for a long time become lazy and are almost always not accepting of improvements or changes to the way things are done.

Someone who job hops (and I'm talking more like 2-3 years at each company, not 7 months) gets exposed to different ways of doing things, different tools, different personalities and has a better understanding of what works better in certain situations, how best to manage communications with people of different backgrounds, how to adapt to different businesses/processes, etc.

That's my sign. Once I start to get comfortable, it's time to go. That normally hits around that 2-2.5 year mark.

 

[The Shadow]

I agree that employers should treat outstanding current employees better but so many companies don't because they feel then need to make more money for the executives and could care less for the bottom tier workers.

My situation was I worked for a large Medical company as an IT specialist. I was hired for a remote smaller clinic 100 miles away from the main hospital and such. We merged and grew and built a super clinic here. It went from maybe 40 computers to about 250 computers. More users, printers, IT devices, switches, phone system and everything else.

I did awesome and always got good reviews. Didn't need to be "babysat" as my boss said in last review and handled things well here myself. I did so much of the setup of the new clinic. I knew the ins and outs of the switches, security system, audio and video(polycom) and so much more.

Well I saw a new opportunity for a government IT Specialist position and applied just to see my options and the pay and benefits were much better. I still loved my old job but hey got to look out for myself and family. I was offered the job, they offered an amount and I counter offered...high, gut they agreed so I could not turn down. I mean $20,000 a year more, fully paid family health insurance. 18% of salary a month to retirement and so much more. When I announced I was leaving and it was announced to the providers and everyone at the clinic they all were shocked and said no way could I leave.

A high up from the main hospital talked to me and I said I would stay if some small things changed(pay of course and a supervisor type role). They tried but in the end whoever oversees IT would not budge at all. Heck I was willing to come back for much less than I make now but more than I made. Nope would not even consider it. I felt insulted since I know I was worth more than what I made and much more than the .40 cent raise a year.

I still fear that I could be let go here as I am still in my 6 month probation period and still trying to fit in and that's life but I just feel that too many companies don't value their great employees and let them go to save money.

You made the right decision. Unless you're a colossal fuck up, and from the impressions at your last job, you're not, you'll sail passed your probation without issue.

 

[Mengy]

In my experience, I find lifers who end up in a single job for a long time become lazy and are almost always not accepting of improvements or changes to the way things are done.

Someone who job hops (and I'm talking more like 2-3 years at each company, not 7 months) gets exposed to different ways of doing things, different tools, different personalities and has a better understanding of what works better in certain situations, how best to manage communications with people of different backgrounds, how to adapt to different businesses/processes, etc.

That's the concept of job hopping, getting exposure to various roles and environments to broaden yourself, and while I agree it sounds good, often times it has not been the case from employees we've had here. Job hoppers we've had have had too little focus, cared too little about actually accomplishing anything or doing real work. They seem to milk a job for talking points on a resume and then leave before the fallout catches up to them. There are most likely exceptions I'm sure, but we've seen a lot of what I'm talking about in both managers and laborers.

 

[Christopher]

When I use to be in the banking industry I started as a teller and j made a nice salary then I got promoted and made .50 cents more while those who came from outside the company as a Banker made 20,000 more I KID you not. That was some shit and I tired to hardball and they said sorry we'll have to look for another person to get promoted then.

That was the biggest slap to my face that I knew he company brand and work ethic to get promoted but got shafted.

 

[Nekofrog]

What an oddly appropriate thread, considering my wife is jumping ship from her current job as as a counselor at a methodone clinic to an intervention counselor elsewhere, going from $15 an hour to $25 an hour, with better benefits and a better schedule.

Loyalty doesn't mean anything in the work realm. Look out for #1. If your coworkers become your friends, don't use that as an excuse to not jump onto a better offer.

 

[ghostofsparta]

All I know is that I wish this thread popped up a few years ago. I've been at my current company for 9 years (finally in the process of starting a new job) and I actually watched one person come into my department, trained them, and watched as they got promoted (and I ended up reporting to them for a while). It wasn't because of skills, it was because she was friends with a higher level manager in the department.

Lol damn that's brutal

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

What an oddly appropriate thread, considering my wife is jumping ship from her current job as as a counselor at a methodone clinic to an intervention counselor elsewhere, going from $15 an hour to $25 an hour, with better benefits and a better schedule.

Loyalty doesn't mean anything in the work realm. Look out for #1. If your coworkers become your friends, don't use that as an excuse to not jump onto a better offer.

That's a 66% raise, your life will change for the better as a result. My raise for my new job is 40%. That's outstanding for a leap. Happy for you. I do keep in contact with select former employees but that it.

 

[deadlast]

The only issue with Job hopping, it the trail you leave on your resume. If you are going to do it, don't do it too often or you will get questioned about it.

After the military, I worked for 3 different companies in 2 years I went from 30 to about 55. It was worth it. Loyalty is a joke. When I left one company people thought I was nuts and raved about loyalty being important. 6 months after I left over 50% of my division was cut.

 

[StillEdge]

If you are loyal to your employer then you're a fool.

Why be loyal to a job that isn't loyal to you.

 

[captive]

I do think that loyalty is ignored and underrated by companies. But you should stop telling employers what you're actually making with a little bump. To be honest, I haven't heard the question of "How much are you making?" But rather, "What are your salary expectations?" Telling them what I think I should get working for them has worked wonderfully for me so far.

I've been asked by every company. Its not a big deal to me because every time I switched or got let go I knew the new skills I acquired were worth more. I knew the range I wanted and have gotten it every time.



going back to the loyalty. At my last job my boss O, hired me, probably the best boss I've ever had. Unfortunately 4 months or so after I was hired, the CIO decided to leave and thus a new CIO was brought in. Meanwhile O hired a network engineer J, O,J and I got along really well, it was a great environment. Well the new CIO 6 months after being hired decides he doesn't like O, in fact the first words out of his mouth is "You make too much money, you make more than the top 1% of Australians (I worked for a Aussie company)" which actually wasn't true.

So O is pushed out and J is promoted to be his replacement. A promotion without the salary mind you, which is really sad because O essentially hinted that I made more than J. I don't like what i'm seeing, new CIO wants to move everything to the cloud, but not just any cloud, some fucking cloud in Australia that no ones ever heard of, which I think is a horrible idea and decide to get a new job. After a month or so I have a great offer from a new company and I put in my notice. I find out through the grapevine that new CIO wont even match the offer because quote "he can't afford me," yet I told not a single person that I was going to be making more money. I was, but I didn't tell anyone that fact.

Even worse a few moths after I leave J gets colon cancer, and takes a leave of absence to get treatment, he comes back and new CIO has already hired his replacement and J is forced to train him the whole time. Absolutely ridiculous. So J still has a job, only because the people into he American office like him so much but he was essentially fired, but they made him a contractor with benefits so that he could still pay for his treatments.

 

[Ganhyun]

I used to work for a company for about 7 years. It started off with decent raises pretty quickly and such with moves to better positions. Then, I was stuck because the only positions up were manager jobs that were filled. Then the recession hit and the company froze 401k matching and other stuff. It was supposed to come back, but it never did. A year or two later with no raise and a coworker and I were both about to walk out the door. We both got a decent raise to stay when no one else got one. (I stayed because the offer I had fell through) So, move forward another year or so and I plan to move. Luckily, my job has an office in the area I was moving to. I informed them of my plan to move and that I would like to transfer to the other office, with a cost of living adjustment for that location.

Knowing that they likely wouldnt want to work with that, I started job hunting in the area I was moving to. My boss locally wanted them to move me and give me a raise to stay, but when I spoke to the people in charge of that office, they wanted me to move into their department. I would have been fine with that except they told me I would not get a raise to move up there and they would not let me move up there without transferring to their department. Told my boss at the time what was up and he was pissed. Got an offer with a large pay raise above what I was making, accepted, gave notice to my current company, and moved.

Got a call from the CFO, CEO, and the VP of my department asking why I left. Told them what happened and they were very upset about it because they had asked the manager of the office I had tried to move to why I quit and he told them some bullshit reason. They wanted me to come back (and work under that guy who lied to them no less) for a small raise from what I was making. I informed them of my new position's salary and they couldn't match it so I left. Wished them well as I hung up.

Bottom line, being loyal to a company only works if the company is obviously loyal to you with things like extra perks or benefits for staying or steady raises beyond cost of living adjustments, and things like that. Otherwise, you are just hurting yourself.

 

[EloquentM]

Background check verifies prior salaries and can actually be a deal breaker for most job offers. If you lie they will most likely know.

This is not always true. Many companies do not like giving out payroll information especially when an employee no longer works for them.
Edit: also, reference check not background check.

 

[captive]

yea people saying background check verifies salary. Not sure where you're getting that or if you're in a different country. But a background check here in the states looks for arrests, mainly and just verifies you are who you say you are.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

yea people saying background check verifies salary. Not sure where you're getting that or if you're in a different country. But a background check here in the states looks for arrests, mainly and just verifies you are who you say you are.

My background check this week checked for four things.

1) Alien Status
2) Education
3) Criminal History
4) Residence

 

[entremet]

All I know is that I wish this thread popped up a few years ago. I've been at my current company for 9 years (finally in the process of starting a new job) and I actually watched one person come into my department, trained them, and watched as they got promoted (and I ended up reporting to them for a while). It wasn't because of skills, it was because she was friends with a higher level manager in the department.

Bottom line is loyalty is overrated. If you're happy with your environment, then have fun. Just know that you should never shut the door on looking elsewhere if money is important to you.

That's a good lesson to learn.

Too many believe that the working word is a total meritocracy, especially kids out of college. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[Joey Fox]

Not being salty at all, just stating what our experience has been with periodic "job hoppers". They seem less interested in doing actual good work and improving our facility and far more interested in bettering their own resume. Especially when contrasted with the long term employees here who actually want to improve things and do good work. Their behavior is often extremely selfish and self serving.

That's been our experience here in Pennsylvania.

Absolutely agree. You're hurting yourself in the long run if you switch too quickly and leave people holding the bag. There are times when it makes sense to jump though, I.e. Ready for next level and not getting opportunities.

 

[Kill3r7]

Successful job hoppers tend to be more desirable candidates, who have a well rounded resumes and interview extremely well. They come across as likable, driven and self-starters. Loyal employees often tend to be looked at as individuals who are complacent and aren't driven enough to want more out of life/work. Additionally, companies tend to value outside employees more than their own.

 

[Red_taiyaki]

Because truth be told, blind loyalty to a company buys you absolutely nothing (imo)? Any company can fire any employee at any time for any reason. My Dad worked for the same company for 25+ years. After they sold the company, they booted him and he ended up in crippling depression for a year or two.

As someone who's worked at three different workplaces over the span of five years, as one of these 'job hoppers,' I will say that I manged to double my take home salary and benefits each time.

 

[The Shadow]

Something to think about...

I had worked a number of lower level student jobs when I was in college. Made a lot of friends, got a lot of good work experience. I graduated, was unemployed for a short time and then found a really good job in IT at the same university and then later moved up again in two years to my current position.

Because it's a state job, salaries must be publicly reported unless you opt out. Many people don't opt out because they simply don't know this fact, or don't know how.

Anyway, I looked up a lot of my former co-workers and the saddest thing is that in just a few "hops", I've managed to secure a position where I'm earning about $10-20K more than a lot of my former co-workers and even bosses.

A former co-worker also was a "hopper" and he's making even more, about as much as our last boss.

So yeah, whooo loyalty.

 

[entremet]

Successful job hoppers tend to be more desirable candidates, who have a well rounded resumes and interview extremely well. They come across as likable, driven and self-starters. Loyal employees often tend to be looked at as individuals who are complacent and aren't driven enough to want more out of life/work. Additionally, companies tend to value outside employees more than their own.

Well, it's that injecting "new blood" phenomenon.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Your new salary at a new company isn't based on your old salary.

The reason is really just that companies often have to pay more to entice new hires and they often don't have to pay more to keep current employees.

Uhhhh, yes it is? If you think they don't take into account what you were paid before then you're hopelessly misguided. There's a reason they ask for salary history.


The reason they do as shitty as it is is because they can. You can get corrections if you're really valuable to the company but if you're interchangeable then they have have no reason to pay you more. That's always why there's sometimes a lot of turnover with older people getting let go and getting replaced with cheaper newer people.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Absolutely agree. You're hurting yourself in the long run if you switch too quickly and leave people holding the bag. There are times when it makes sense to jump though, I.e. Ready for next level and not getting opportunities.

I'm getting nice guy finish last vibes from this. I've been that person, coming through the door, making more than you and you've been doing this same job for 15 years, busting your ass for that 5% raise and faint prospects of bonuses. Man, that shit is for the birds. Your bosses are looking out for themselves. Because job hoppers aren't held accountable at their job, that's not on them. They played the game well. My perspective might be due to being in an ultra competitive environment like Chicago. In any event though, the company views outside people like highly valued free agents while most people already at the company are considered second and third stringers

 

[FalsettoVibe]

Seeing as i was just offered a job with higher pay, this thread is very interesting to me.

 

[Joey Fox]

I'm getting nice guy finish last vibes from this. I've been that person, coming through the door, making more than you and you've been doing this same job for 15 years, busting your ass for that 5% raise and faint prospects of bonuses. Man, that shit is for the birds. Your bosses are looking out for themselves. Because job hoppers aren't held accountable at their job, that's not on them. They played the game well. My perspective might be due to being in an ultra competitive environment like Chicago. In any event though, the company views outside people like highly valued free agents while most people already at the company are considered second and third stringers

I never finish last, and get promoted within every two years. I've been working less than four in my industry, and switched jobs after two years in that industry for a huge pay raise.

But the people that switch every year show they can't close. I'm a closer. Come at me.

 

[Acorn]

Everyone wants dat strange.

 

[Messofanego]

In my experience, I find lifers who end up in a single job for a long time become lazy and are almost always not accepting of improvements or changes to the way things are done.

Someone who job hops (and I'm talking more like 2-3 years at each company, not 7 months) gets exposed to different ways of doing things, different tools, different personalities and has a better understanding of what works better in certain situations, how best to manage communications with people of different backgrounds, how to adapt to different businesses/processes, etc.

That's my experience too. I've noticed some things that are outdated or confusing that they haven't been fixed (like healthcare assistants not getting access to patient care plans), but the ones who've worked at the mental health hospital for many years have let it slip by in the defeatist position that there won't be improvements. Newer employees means fresh new eyes especially if you've worked in more than one field. And changes have already happened for the better because of us job hoppers complaining who might stay for just 6 months to a couple of years.

Don't get complacent or accepting of bullshit, that's the fear to keep in mind when being loyal.

I think loyal employees get scared of needing to do interviews for other jobs again after so many years so they don't hop as much cause they've forgotten how the interview game works.

 

[BearFlexington]

This kinda sums it up.

No it doesn't. Companies tend to maintain better competitive salary practices than they do performance-based increases. This helps their public image and attracts new talent. Changing companies every 2-4 years allows employees to take advantage of this practice.

Of course I'm only referring to tech and white-collar work. Blue collar, retail, union, and food/service practices probably differ.

 

[Red_taiyaki]

Uhhhh, yes it is? If you think they don't take into account what you were paid before then you're hopelessly misguided. There's a reason they ask for salary history.


The reason they do as shitty as it is is because they can. You can get corrections if you're really valuable to the company but if you're interchangeable then they have have no reason to pay you more. That's always why there's sometimes a lot of turnover with older people getting let go and getting replaced with cheaper newer people.

My current company never asked for how much I was making at my last company. So I don't know if that's the "golden standard rule" or if my job is an exception.

 

[Acorn]

My current company never asked for how much I was making at my last company. So I don't know if that's the "golden standard rule" or if my job is an exception.

Depends on the place. Some ask even at application stage, others never.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

I never finish last, and get promoted within every two years. I've been working less than four in my industry, and switched jobs after two years in that industry for a huge pay raise.

But the people that switch every year show they can't close. I'm a closer. Come at me.

I'm happy to see you get pay increases. However, I'm sure you'd get more from another company. My last two jobs increased my salary by 45% and 40%, respectively. Most places don't offer raises like that for growth within a company. However, for successful job hopping people, that's the reality.

 

[SporeCrawler]

Because job hoppers are not going to leave if they are not getting the salary they are satisfied with mainly since they have a job already. Thats their leverage.

 

[TheBear]

I've been in the job market for 5 years, and in that time I have had 5 different employees and my wage has tripled in that time. Job hopping rules

 

[Aselith]

Just told my supervisor that I would be leaving in a month for a new job that pays 20k more and has bonuses and other perks. He immediately started trying to figure out if he could afford to match it or not. Made me wonder why he didn't give me any sort of raise over the last couple of years? I am not staying.

What would be his incentive to offer you a pay raise other than your basic cost of living adjustment? If you give employees raises just because on the regular, you're just training them to expect raises regularly, which means it's a problem when you don't, and ballooning your own budget.

 

[Sydle]

I disagree. I am 32, my total time with my company is 14 years including my time as an intern. They have pushed me into bigger roles and expanded my responsibilities in a direct attempt to train me for a future leadership of the company position. I am a hard worker and it feels like any new program they want to roll out start at my projects with me. My whole career I have felt like if I ever needed anything I could just ask any higher up, not just the ones I have worked with.

I have an interest in the company and want to make it better, therefore the company has an interest in me and wants me to learn and grow. I see that as mutually beneficial

Not all companies are the same where loyalty and hard work pay off.

I was an exceptional performer at my last company, but leadership had a revolving door approach to employees. When I moved into management I started getting taught to treat my team like lightbulbs, drive them hard until they burn out and replace as needed. That went for everyone and nobody stays there longer than 4-5 years.

It sounds like you're in a good company where it makes sense to invest your time, but from my experience your situation is the exceptional not the rule.

 

[Joey Fox]

I'm happy to see you get pay increases. However, I'm sure you'd get more from another company. My last two jobs increased my salary by 45% and 40%, respectively. Most places don't offer raises like that for growth within a company. However, for successful job hopping people, that's the reality.

I know that I would and when it makes sense to I will. When you're in a spot where you're likely to get great new skills/experience/responsibilities money can take a bit of a backseat for me. I'll get promoted faster here than what I'd get switching. Once that changes I'll have leverage.

All I'm saying is that if you switch jobs every time you could get a higher salary and ignore other actors you might be stunting yourself. Looking like a mercenary doesn't demonstrate leadership and I will be an executive one day, also. Ok, I'm also saying moving in less than 2 years is too soon to demonstrate you can close.

 

[Septimus Prime]

In just under four years at my current company, I've so far gotten three promotions and a salary boost of about 80%. Granted, the last promotion and raise were from a counteroffer that I took, I understand that this type of momentum is unusual, so I'm not planning to jump ship until it stops. That said, though, when recruiters call me, I always follow through; you never know what kinds of opportunities await elsewhere.

Meanwhile, at my previous company, they kept me in the same position for about four years, with annual, tiny 3.5% raises. Surprise, surprise, I left.

 

[Kieli]

That's the concept of job hopping, getting exposure to various roles and environments to broaden yourself, and while I agree it sounds good, often times it has not been the case from employees we've had here. Job hoppers we've had have had too little focus, cared too little about actually accomplishing anything or doing real work. They seem to milk a job for talking points on a resume and then leave before the fallout catches up to them. There are most likely exceptions I'm sure, but we've seen a lot of what I'm talking about in both managers and laborers.

Does your workplace culture adequately address the career advancement and job progression needs of its loyal and talented employees (which is what I presume you value)?

Honestly the reason why people are forced to job hop is precisely because companies would rather divest their profits towards new hires rather than building and fostering talent internally. Short-sighted, but whatever brings in the short-term profits.

 

[Kieli]

Why be loyal to a job that isn't loyal to you.

Precisely.

You spend all your energy, precious time, and sacrifice friendship and family for the company.

Then you get fired as worker #xyz in a mass layoff or demoted.

It just isn't worth it until you strike it at the rare, rare, rare job where the management understands a healthy company starts with a happy workforce.

Edit: I take that back. Having a happy workforce is absolutely not needed to be obscenely profitable.

 

[captive]

What would be his incentive to offer you a pay raise other than your basic cost of living adjustment? If you give employees raises just because on the regular, you're just training them to expect raises regularly, which means it's a problem when you don't, and ballooning your own budget.

this logic falls apart when the company hires new people at higher salaries.

 

[MWS Natural]

Silicon Valley, including Google, is full of job-hoppers. That's why they signed anti-poaching agreements with other companies.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/business...ny_how_amazon_google_and_others_stack_up.html

Wow surprised how low the salaries are..

 

[KKRT00]

Because truth be told, blind loyalty to a company buys you absolutely nothing (imo)? Any company can fire any employee at any time for any reason.

In Poland they cant. As long as You come in daily and work normally, they cant fire You, if they do, You can sue them to Work Court.

Actually in Poland the law somehow promotes job hopping. If You are in the company for less than 3 years than leaving notice period is 1 month, after 3 years its 3 months, so generally people change jobs after 2-2.5 years due to that.

I'll probably gonna leave my company in 5-6 or 15-18 months. In 5-6 months if i dont get 50% raise at the end of the year and in 15-18 months to not get into 3 month notice period.

 

[superdeluxe]

Doesn't this mean companies are underpaying existing staff and overpaying for new hires? Surely, it would be better for everyone involved if companies prioritized retention. Seems like a weird game theory problem.

Because they already have the loyal workers

 

[Aselith]

this logic falls apart when the company hires new people at higher salaries.

Nope, they're hiring people at those salaries and then if they don't raise their salaries after the initial hiring it still falls in line with that logic. Hire at one price and don't keep upgrading salaries unless there is a very good reason.

 

[captive]

Wow surprised how low the salaries are..

why? house keeping, security, hr, facilities, the vast majority of those jobs are very low paying.

 

[Kill3r7]

Nope, they're hiring people at those salaries and then if they don't raise their salaries after the initial hiring it still falls in line with that logic. Hire at one price and don't keep upgrading salaries unless there is a very good reason.

I worked for a pharma company out of college that followed this practice. When their competitors started to poach their top talent they were forced to raise their salaries almost 50% and have done so periodically ever since.

 

[captive]

Nope, they're hiring people at those salaries and then if they don't raise their salaries after the initial hiring it still falls in line with that logic. Hire at one price and don't keep upgrading salaries unless there is a very good reason.

ok, but then you look at opportunity cost when those employees leave. As I stated before in the thread, you now have recruiting time, interviewing time (literal and downtime from appointment to appoint), once you finally find someone, you have a negotiation period, background check perioid, they usually give two weeks notice to their current employer. Then you have HR paperwork, etc all the while the position sat unfilled. Meanwhile once the person starts it takes at least 3 months if not longer for the person to be comfortable in the position. All of this is time and money lost because the company wouldn't just give the first employee a raise.

Its very short sighted imo to just say hire someone and never give them a raise.


edit: I also forgot, recruiter fees! Recruiters charge 20-25% of the first year salary! you can't sit there and tell me it wouldnt be cheaper to just give your current employee a raise.

 

[Timedog]

Would a business that decides to only get materials supplied from one source, regardless of the price of other sources, get the best price? Unlikely.