-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Why do men keep putting me in the Girlfriend-zone?
- Thread starter SquiddyCracker
- Start date
- Status
Funny enough, the miscommunication aspect between the girl and guy is not what I misunderstood from that post. What I don't understand is in what context has the girl been leading the guy on if that's how their friendship is defined? Also I find it funny how it's the activities is what defines a friendship or relationship to you guys and not the actual interaction between two people.
I always knew you were too promiscuous to be considered introverted. UGH.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm just fucking tired at this point. Tired of the goddamn miscommunication. I've had like four girls come out to me in recent years saying "man, I was really attracted to you back in high-school" when from my perspective they were just friendly. And then just a month ago there was a girl who was very friendly with me, and we went out for drinks a few times and then when I asked her out for dinner sometime she said she just wanted to be friends. I honestly don't know how to tell if someone is flirting with me. I just don't fucking know. If its something besides being really friendly and acting interested then I guess no-one ever flirts with me, which is a pretty crushing blow to the self esteem.
Mind you, its not like I don't have female friends. I just spent three hours with a couple of them yesterday checking out art studios. Fantastic time. I'm not interested in them and I know they're not interested in me. But I cannot tell for the life of me when someone is
Mind you, its not like I don't have female friends. I just spent three hours with a couple of them yesterday checking out art studios. Fantastic time. I'm not interested in them and I know they're not interested in me. But I cannot tell for the life of me when someone is
I dunno, I don't blame him. Often, making one statement leads to you needing to clarify that you're not saying five other statements.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Yeah, that's true. But if you worry about people being fucking idiots all the time, you'll never talk.
Then again, I have a bit of recent happenings that I'm not sharing, so I'm not one to talk...lol
But then if you don't defend your statement, you get called a troll. And that gets you in a shady spot close to being banned.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Hard to say where the system fails, but any statement you make on a social issue that doesn't fall in line with how society framed the debate can lead to ten people attacking you from all sorts of angles, with nine of them not even understanding what you said because they read farther into your statement than what was warranted. And if you defend it too little, you could be seen as a troll. Defend it too much and you're accused of derailing a thread, even if you're only giving one defense post per attacking post. Because the ten attacking posts are spread among ten people, the attackers aren't getting accused of anything. But with one person defending against all ten, the defender is "derailing."
Alright, here we go internet ire:
What I glean from this thread is that by and large most women are turned away from the idea of dating a friend. On top of this it almost feels as though(issue excerbated on internet, I know) any man who makes his interest known after the friendship is already established is a bad person. For the record I am not commenting on the satire of the article so much as I am at the seeming drove of people who came to make fun of people who got rejected and didn't know how to handle it well.
I know that those men should not lament the women that turned them down, but I do not believe that all of these men became friends with the express intent to date or sleep with these women. It is possible to catch feelings over time and certain things can be misinterpreted and so on. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the "friend zone" is not a move that men are playing, it's a thing that happens more often than not when a man cannot properly express his feelings/intent/desire to a woman properly. Yet even still these feelings are not always at first sight as it is often perpetuated as though it is part of some lousy scheme. Yet if it were a scheme wouldn't it have been denounced as the shittiest PUA move?
Besides that I imagine a man is less likely to turn down a woman that is his friend if she asked him out on a date. Maybe it's because women are more used to advances and therefore rejecting said advances that they don't consider their male friends? Now I imagine that is a bizarre leap in logic, but had the man approached the woman strictly with the intent to date then the entire dynamic of the relationship would be different. The woman would instead have to gauge her interest in that man based on that limited interaction which I would consider a greater risk vs reward rather than dating someone she may have already known for a longer period of time.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
I had this problem to a small extent (I was bad at expressing myself subtly), and I had other friends who had problems even stronger than me. What I'm trying to say is, this advice has worked before.
You either find somebody to can flirt and can notice flirting, and you follow them around for weeks and have them break down every interaction until you get it, or if you don't have that option, then you watch a shit ton of romance films and romantic comedies. There are good ones, and, honestly, it's where the girls learned it from, so that's where you can learn it too.
Not bad, just stupid. Confessing your love is a lose-lose situation; it won't work and everybody feels like shit. It just so happens that my operational definition of "stupidity" is someone who willingly chooses a lose-lose situation.
I have friends who are girls, and I go to movies with them, concerts, hiking, etc. I'm either not attracted to them, they are currently attached, or they have made it clear up front that they aren't interested in me (I.E. talking about guys they like, etc.). If I like a girl, I've made it a rule to make sure she knows my intentions fairly quickly so that there's no subterfuge and no confusion. It may be uncomfortable, but it's easy to salvage a relationship that early on if I want to - and just as easy to let it fade if I'm not.
My takeaway from the satire is that it's not wrong of me to not want to be friends with someone if I saw them as a romantic interest and they didn't see me that way, and now things are awkward and unequal - just as it's not wrong of a girl to only want friendship instead of a relationship. As long as communication is open and honest, there shouldn't be any issues.
This is, of course, much harder to do than it is to say. But it's worked out for me so far.
My takeaway from the satire is that it's not wrong of me to not want to be friends with someone if I saw them as a romantic interest and they didn't see me that way, and now things are awkward and unequal - just as it's not wrong of a girl to only want friendship instead of a relationship. As long as communication is open and honest, there shouldn't be any issues.
This is, of course, much harder to do than it is to say. But it's worked out for me so far.
Shouta
Member
True, better communication would solve it but that's a skill all parties lack.
Uh, it's misleading based on his interpretation of her actions? As I pointed out, men tend to view intimate, 1 on 1 interaction with the opposite sex, to be a very close or the same as when you're romantically involved with someone. In the scenario in the piece, she's doing stuff with him that he can see as something he'd do with his girlfriend but she sees him as a friend and she never states so.
There's no ill-intent on her part but it ended up misleading to the guy because her actions don't jive with his view of what pursuing someone romantically is. It really isn't clear cut from a third party perspective. You have to view it from the lens of either party then step back and state it. The actions from our perspective and her's are benign but to a guy in that situation, it looks misleading.
It's why I brought up my question before. What would she do differently with a guy she was actually interested in if sex and the associated stuff wasn't there?
If the friendship isn't clearly stated by either party, they can only run on their perception of the actions towards them. It's really a situation where you can't say one party or the other is bad, really. It's just we kind of muck the situation up when discussing it.
Don't feel too bad but I think most men can't understand what women are actually thinking when it comes to who they're actually attracted to unless it's getting beat over their heads or they get lucky when they approach someone. If it were only as simple as her coming up to you and saying, "Hey, I think you're kind cute, wanna talk?" It does happen, just not enough.
Devolution
Member
Is this really true of all men or is this true of people who don't communicate their wants and needs with their friends?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I've been advised by multiple people that communication is actually a bad idea, that being forward with your intentions is "creepy"
Devolution
Member
What people where? It's possible to have friends where one of you pines away* for the other or has already been rejected but you like the person enough to keep on as a friend. My group of friends is full of exes and people who would probably hook up if time and place were more on their side. To me part of life is knowing that you have great chemistry with some people but it will never work as a relationship and just dealing with that. As well as knowing you have no romantic chemistry with some people and dealing with that too.
*for lack of a better term
What some people in here have been getting upset with is the idea that it's just one sided to be rejected by a friend and cut ties. If someone finds you interesting and fun to be around and you're no longer there, that's a friend they lost.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Being too forward without any reciprocation is creepy, yeah. Basically the ideal is a mutual escalation between the two parties.
You need to listen for as many things as you say. Communication is a two way street. Act and then watch carefully to see what happens. Some small compliments (joking or clever wordplay usually helps early on), prolonged eye contact and genuine interest in what the other person is saying (constant laughter is a good sign), and light physical touch. Do these, look for these, see how they're received. Are they coldly ignored? Back off. Are they responded with interest? Continue them, try a variation. Become more blatant if you're pretty sure of a success. You'll be surprised how blatant you can get as long as you're listening to what she's sending you.
I can see where you might take that from this thread, but I don't think it's the case for quite a lot of people. There is a very small group of people who exhibit the behavior we are talking about, but unfortunately a lot of innocent guys are getting swept up into it concerned that perhaps their actions are being viewed in the same light as these other guys who are not such upstanding citizens.
I can never have an interest in someone just from first impressions alone. It takes awhile to build up anything significant (but I am also not a casual dater, I like getting into a serious relationship based on an already established connection.) Now this is all anecdotal of course, and I can't speak for all women, but this has been a similar trend with women I have known who are also looking for serious relationships. Though, I suppose some shop around for a serious relationship via casual dating, I personally dislike going into any relationship with those expectations already front and center.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
C'mon guys, making fun of other people's deficient social skills, especially fellow forum members, isn't very nice. I know I sometimes slip into this mindset at times too, but try to have some fucking empathy for your video game playing comrades. It wasn't easy for me to transition from a mega dork in middle school to a regularly social human, and "cooler" people insulting me for it didn't help any.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Three out of four just recently in both directions and after two nights out drinking suddenly "yeah, we're just friends". And that is not the first time that's happened, that's kind of my track record dating back years. I dunno, maybe this is good advice and all the women I'm interested in are just anomalous
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
At least in terms of the OP's article, some light ridicule can be useful. I still have friends who think they should become super close friends with a girl because they like her. I agree that we should avoid being mean spirited though.
It's more about the escalation than the actual actions I listed. That's what separates you from a flirty friend to someone who's actually trying to date a girl. Depending on the girl, ramping it up to outright sexual or romantic banter is a good target to aim for. It's hard to misconstrue that.
Of course, it's also possible that miscommunication occurred in your situation, or that the women in question were being difficult. There's hundreds of possible reasons.
EDIT: I would say the post below is an approach that would work if you're really dedicated, but there's plenty of other approaches out there that work just as well without having to reinvent your entire personality. It doesn't have to be so regimented.
I'll bite. Here's a little spitballing, take it for what it's worth.
Be the top of your pecking order, don't befriend people who put you lower. This has nothing to do with being macho, but everything to do with not hanging around disrespect. If you're getting reamed, you ream back or you make a joke of it. Blatant disrespect is a huge attraction killer. Real friends do not prevent you from meeting someone. If they do, you settle that stuff IMMEDIATELY, and you make some ground rules. If your friend isn't playing fair, he's not on your team. That last part is a hard and fast rule. There is no question, no wiggle room. It's just the way it is.
Short and fucking simple -- have some sort of image. Absolutely no need to go apeshit, just have an image. Be in presentable shape.
Have some female friends you're not attracted to and vice versa. HELLO THREAD TOPIC!!!! In fact, make a point to make friends with a few for whom you are not attractive to aside from personality. Make sure those girls have a sparkling cool personality. I'm not talking somewhat nice, I mean fucking beaming. A girl that is a hit socially and loves your personality. Someone people want to be around but puts you at priority numero uno (except her bf but even still is super cool). Now you have a fucking cool friend and it won't go south unless they move or something, and you're instantly non-creep.
Be funny, which means be funny but do not be a total clown or buffoon.
Have a hook. My friend used to throw kickass BBQ's, another had an awesome singing voice as well as charm and a 'you're either with me or against me' attitude, another had pool parties, another was a club guy, another was a rich crazy charismatic huge smile person with a Porsche and a short fuse, another was *insert your hook here*. Obviously it has to be something women would find interesting, the best ones are the ones that both interested in and draw manageable people and outcomes but the sky is the limit here.
Do not get involved with the first girl who likes you. Be nice, but not all about her. Women are competitive. They notice this shit even when you don't. They know it's happening six rooms over. Like moths to a flame. Maybe they don't act on it that day, but oh boy do they notice. And they call us crazy. Do this for a few more girls, the be nice thing but sort of interested and smily and stuff but not really but yes but no but yes but no lollers, then continue your night. But then invite them somewhere anyway.
Here's a fucking tip I don't recall seeing anywhere. A good personality is often misrepresented. For example I'll tell you it isn't being Chris Farley. No shit right? But that dude was funny as fuck. But he doesn't count as good personality because he's too big and self deprecating to a huge fault. Personality, and every woman is different I acknowledge that, is a combination of getting and keeping attention from others, and having it be a positive reflection of you. It's Michael Jordan being on fire infinitely. Okay we can take that down a notch but it's a good analogy. Your personality is one that reinforces itself, and it doesn't have to be edgy, just grabbing, and that's partially reinforced infinitely by the company you keep. You can actually be a boring person, but the people you hang with light you up. This is awe inspiring to see, and even more so to be, because you're pretty much in a good mood a lot of the time.
When they start giving you their life story, in that knowing way where they have your attention, (and no I won't type 700 paragraphs explaining 'that knowing way'), make a move.
Be nice afterwards, that way you have the option of hooking up later.
I'm done spitballing because it was a long time ago when I actually had friends and a life lol.
Again, I get that but whose fault is it if you've gone on multiple outings with just said person and nothing intimate happened? If I went out with a particular girl for a picnic, a show, several dinners, and watch a movie back at my place and I never made a move, is it fair for her to think that I intended to be more than friends all along?
I just want to make it a point that regardless of the activities, it's all contextual and that it's mainly how you interact. If a guy goes out on what he thinks are dates with the same girl for over a month and nothing happened, why isn't he asking himself if there's something odd about that?
Shouta
Member
It's true for everyone? A lot of people don't communicate their needs and wants to their friends perfectly or even correctly. Not just romantically, but in general. If only a fraction of folks can do it, it's kind of silly to expect everyone to be able to. You can hope folks can but expect it? Good luck with that, lol.
Eteric Rice
Member
Jesus Christ this sounds complicated.
Its not. Once it happens it reinforces itself. There's little maintenance once its in order. And I gave a lot of detail. Each paragraph can be whittled into a sentence or two. The most important part is who you hang with and that you're a positive key in that dynamic.
Devolution
Member
Um, the whole point of friendship and relationships is communication and if some people fail to do this properly that's their fault. You want something to be a date, make it a date, make it known. I've gone out with friends alone on all kinds of adventures. No one was under the impression these were dates. We both have fun with friends of the opposite sex who are straight without any "romance" or "tension." It's entirely possible. People who can't do this sure like to project a lot of misery on to everyone else.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Part of the problem is both genders have issues "staying on-sides" when it comes to staying platonic. I have had plenty of female friends in the past cross the line with texts late at night/being tipsy. I've also had girls use "I just wanna be friends" initially only to later say "Well I only said that because..." and admit it was token resistance so as not to appear too eager.
If there is one thing I've learned in my time on GAF, damn near the only thing any of us have in common is us liking video games. It's kill or be killed.
Well Chris Farley also had major drug use problems so I'm sure he wasn't the greatest person to be around.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
I would say it's just a lot of work, especially if some of the more specific elements deviate a lot from your existing personality. There's some good advice there, but the whole package isn't really necessary unless you're dedicating your life to getting women. Some people don't need to reinvent everything, they just need a few pointers.
On a more abstract level, if it really just boils down to "be interesting," then sure, I can agree with that.
And there's a ton of people around here who don't even like video games.
I was spitballing, and even now I'm drawing a blank. My main point is you aren't a character, you're a key part of a good play. Feel free to use your own example.
You don't really need to, its hard to explain. It really is who you are friends with and how the dynamic plays out. With the right people, the best you have comes out without any effort.
Your efforts aren't so much into reinventing as opposed to having a great clique, a great vibe.
The right group MAKES you interesting, or BRINGS it out of you. it reciprocates itself, that's kind of what friendship, the right friendships anyway, are. It doesn't have to be there always.
Be interesting is a painful effort. To me, feel free to shoot me down but the point stands, being interesting denotes effort, whereas great friendships require none. It bounces back and forth like a game of ping pong.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Reading it again carefully, and stripping out the examples, it really boils down to "be interesting/funny and have good friends." I can get behind that.
I don't really agree with having to rely on your friends to make you interesting. And I don't feel like you have to try that hard either. Maybe we're thinking about "interesting" in a different way.
For me, someone who is interesting is someone I can have a conversation with, someone with at least a bit of intelligence that we can banter about for a while. Not necessarily somebody you can immediately identify with an image (I find that a bit reductive and boring) but at east somebody who knows some shit that can offer you a conversation.
So, like, when I mean I want to be an interesting person, that means that I have lots of cool stories and facts and am making a lot of good jokes and can keep a conversation rolling. People like that, they want to be around that. And it's not hard to do, if you have a lot to draw upon.
Wait, I thought we're trying to date them. I'm so confused.
Fair enough but keep in mind forced interesting always falls flat if you don't have the right audience. Its a state of cameraderie (sp?) not forced interaction.
Guy LeDouche
Banned
if it helps, even if you did date them in HS you probably would have fucked it up anyway sooooo
In the story of your life you're always the good guy.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
We are entering an example of why editing posts is a bad idea. My fault, sorry.
Well, not the genders you're not attracted to. And note that not every date is going to turn into something, so you can always befriend them. Some of my best friends are dates that didn't work out.
As I said above, interesting is basically being a good conversationalist, in my experience. I don't know, I've always wanted to sell myself as a complex and engaging person, so as long as I've got relevant stories and jokes and topics and can communicate with eloquence, I'll sell myself. At least to the women I'm trying to get.
Friends can help this, because your better friends will get you into a state of conversational momentum, and you can use this to splinter off and talk to other people (like pretty girls) and keep the ball rolling. But it's not like you must have your friends around to be good at having conversations. It's a tool, not a requirement.
I hope we're on the same page, or at least in the same ballpark.
That's not very nice.
Well, not the genders you're not attracted to. And note that not every date is going to turn into something, so you can always befriend them. Some of my best friends are dates that didn't work out.
As I said above, interesting is basically being a good conversationalist, in my experience. I don't know, I've always wanted to sell myself as a complex and engaging person, so as long as I've got relevant stories and jokes and topics and can communicate with eloquence, I'll sell myself. At least to the women I'm trying to get.
Friends can help this, because your better friends will get you into a state of conversational momentum, and you can use this to splinter off and talk to other people (like pretty girls) and keep the ball rolling. But it's not like you must have your friends around to be good at having conversations. It's a tool, not a requirement.
I hope we're on the same page, or at least in the same ballpark.
That's not very nice.
Its just a good, smart way to be, unless you're clearly in the wrong. And then you apologize and hug or whatever.
Yes, correct. But without a clique its an uphill battle, at least for me. I've met loners that do very well, but that doesn't work for me. Momentum is something else that's crucial, but again, something that just happens, you can't force it. Oceans Eleven might be a good vibe movie example. Good vibes happen with being interesting, but without the right trust/respect, it won't stick.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Worse. At least friendzone snark is funny.
Makes total sense. Yeah, I'm more of a one on one kind of person, but I can see how becoming more of a social person can fuel the aspects that people like to see. Cool.
Would this be a better or worse place to be? I'm undecided.
imagine a reality filled only with garfield comics.... I'm pretty sure it's what hell actually is.
Rubbish King
The gift that keeps on giving
badcrumble
Member
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
That's why I tell every girl I'm attracted to that i want more if we go out. Sadly I'm attracted by almost all women. So I tend to only have guy friends. There's one girl I'd say is my friend friend.
ColonelColon
Member
The problem with this idea is that there can only be one guy at the top of any pecking order.
No, you just have to have different tastes or have an understanding or do your own pick ups, and by pick ups I mean people already kinda know of you from class or events, or around town, so its nothing to invite them to your event and they'll probably come to it, or to super cool girl's events and since super cool girl always invites new people since that's just the type of person she is, you're not fighting tooth and nail for anyone in particular. Your friends are working with or for you because they have theirs already or recently did.
Or I'll just do this:
1995-1998 Chicago Bulls: Harper, Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Longley, Kerr, and Kukoc. You can say Jordan is the best basketball player, or you can take a look at the best team to ever set foot on a court.
But in a sense, you are right. The wrong men are competition. You don't want to be friends with ACTUAL competition. Joking is one thing, betrayal is another. The best wingman I ever had was smart. He'd always schmooze with 2 cute girls. He'd NEVER not have me in mind. And since our personalities vibed, but we were so different, we never had to compete. He picked one, and always stuck with it, but the other was always cute so it just worked.
- Status