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[*Splinter]

The idea of free speech sometimes including speech that's dangerous or repulsive to society isn't new, is it?

I seem to remember having these debates in high school/ grade school years ago about how the government can't block speech Alone even if the ideas expressed are disgusting, and the reasons why.

Because if the government can't lock up the Nazi for saying his hate in public, the government also shouldn't be able to lock up the angry protestors in front of trump tower or the white house as long as neither one actually takes action or hurts anyone.

That's how I always understood it, we shouldn't leave "illegal speech" in the hands of people's interpretation because it's too easily abused.

Am I wrong about this? It seems like so many are against the notion of free speech these days and see it as only a racist dog whistle.

Noone (well, mostly) is actually arguing against free speech though. The conversation goes something like this:

A: "Black lives don't matter"
B: "Wow what an awful thing to say"
A: "Free speech!"
C: "Come on man that's fucked up. Why are you trying to infringe his free speech like that?"

You are C, btw

 

[7DollarHagane]

I think free speech "apologists" are justified in the casse of, for example, Colin Kaepernick.
I also think finger wags are more than justified in response to Nazis. I think this thread asks why people feel the opposites are also justified.

You seem to be ok with them, are you here to explain why?

(I'm leaving out the bridge blockers because they're at least debatable. Kaepernick had plenty of flack and is no less valid for the conversation.)

It's important to remember that "taking flak" isn't something you're protected from via free speech. Kapernick can take flak, people are free to express it, right or wrong. Others can shit talk, criticise, condemn, fire your ass, and totally reject you from society (which would be the correct response to the nazi fucks) but the government cant take action against you legally for your speech that isn't breaking other laws.

Blocking a bridge is breaking a law so regardless of their message, bridge blockers are getting the attention of law enforcement. That can be one way of getting a message across, but it's not going to stop the established process/consequence.

 

[Yellowflashdude]

Just the idea of black people asking to be treated equally makes white americans go apeshit

 

[7DollarHagane]

Isn't hate speech protected as free speech in the US?

Yes, and it's that way so that Trump or someone like him can't claim that his critics are a form of hate speech and lock up journalists that are critical of him.

 

[Chuckie]

Yes, and it's that way so that Trump or someone like him can't claim that his critics are a form of hate speech and lock up journalists that are critical of him.

Yeah, like they are locking up all those journalists in Western Europe, where hate speech isn't protected.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Yeah, like they are locking up all those journalists in Western Europe, where hate speech isn't protected.

That's a bit of a strawman. There's a big difference between "Here's somewhere where it doesn't happen" and "It can't happen".

 

[darklin0]

Yeah, like they are locking up all those journalists in Western Europe, where hate speech isn't protected.

You don't hear about that cause they are all locked up.

 

[*Splinter]

It's important to remember that "taking flak" isn't something you're protected from via free speech. Kapernick can take flak, people are free to express it, right or wrong. Others can shit talk, criticise, condemn, fire your ass, and totally reject you from society (which would be the correct response to the nazi fucks) but the government cant take action against you legally for your speech that isn't breaking other laws.

Blocking a bridge is breaking a law so regardless of their message, bridge blockers are getting the attention of law enforcement. That can be one way of getting a message across, but it's not going to stop the established process/consequence.

Right, so the question would be how do people justify criticising Kaepernick and not the Nazis.

The answer is very obviously racism, the more interesting question is how they justify it to themselves, particularly those who think they aren't racist.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

I mean, if protestors are blocking my route to work I'm gonna be pissed off. Regardless of what it's for. I need to get to work.

 

[Chuckie]

That's a bit of a strawman. There's a big difference between "Here's somewhere where it doesn't happen" and "It can't happen".

It can't happen because we also have a independent legal system and criticising the government could and would never be considered hate speech.

 

[Prime crotch]

The "problem" is the wrong kind of violence, not the violence itself. Punching someone for their beliefs, maybe even shared by some albeit in a more euphemistic semantic, puts the fear in people, while cop violence is par of the course, a shameful thing that shouldn't happen, but what can you do about it?

 

[Number_6]

Just the idea of black people asking to be treated equally makes white americans go apeshit

I don't think it's necessarily because white americans don't want black americans to be treated equally though. I think it's more that they like to think they've already been doing a good job at treating black people equally, and now the black people want more. The white people think they're living out "if you give a mouse a cookie" and they're not having it.

It still complete bullshit. But now they can say they want equality for everyone and sleep at night, even when (possibly willfuly) ignorantly denying that very equality.

 

[boiled goose]

Right, so the question would be how do people justify criticising Kaepernick and not the Nazis.

The answer is very obviously racism, the more interesting question is how they justify it to themselves, particularly those who think they aren't racist.

This.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

That's a bit of a strawman. There's a big difference between "Here's somewhere where it doesn't happen" and "It can't happen".

It can't, you get fined, not go to prison. You don't go to prison for every small thing in europe.

We are neither trigger happy nor lock up happy around here.

 

[Snoopycat]

Watching how upset people got over those BLM members blocking that bridge wasn't even surprising to me. It's just sad. All them so called civil rights champions who started tutting because a damn bridge got blocked. "Oh no. We can't have this. This is anarchy. Those poor drivers may be trying to get Walmart."

The police are deliberately gunning down people in the streets and the people won't do a damn thing about it except post long winded bullshit on Facebook so they can feel righteous. It just highlight to me again that the American black community cannot rely on any real outside support and got to group together to protect themselves.

 

[lazygecko]

The answer is obvious.

And regarding the liberals you mentioned, 22% of White Democrats have racial resentment towards Black people:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/05/...-support-trump-but-dont-want-to-admit-it.html

I think there's an underlying dynamic that drove much of the election results. It's a lower layer of subconscious racism which drives your thoughts and actions, even if you're sincerely internally convinced that you yourself are not a racist.

Essentially it is a tacit acknowledgement that white people are on top and in charge of American society. You don't mind that every once in a while minority individuals "slip through the cracks" becoming successful and/or powerful. But as soon as you start to feel that there might be a systemic change to this status quo happening on a demographic scale, which starts to challenge this underlying world view you're used to, then that makes you feel very uncomfortable. And that's what can drive someone like your average suburban soccer mom who might otherwise idenity as liberal to vote for someone like Trump.

There was an article a few months ago about a new wave of white flight from suburban neighborhoods because newly moved in Asian families had their kids consistently outperforming white kids in school, which kind of ties into all of this.

 

[CyclopsRock]

It can't happen because we also have a independent legal system and criticising the government could and would never be considered hate speech.

I agree. My point was that you can't just point to somewhere where Thing X hasn't happened and use that to conclude that it can, therefore, never happen.

It can't, you get fined, not go to prison. You don't go to prison for every small thing in europe.

We are neither trigger happy nor lock up happy around here.

I think you misunderstood. My point wasn't "It's going to happen in Europe", my point was that pointing to one instance in which X hasn't happened somewhere doesn't mean it can't happen, either in that place or elsewhere. You can apply this logic to anything.

 

[Chuckie]

I agree. My point was that you can't just point to somewhere where Thing X hasn't happened and use that to conclude that it can, therefore, never happen.

Fair enough.

 

[PdotMichael]

It's so simple, I don't know why GAF doesn't get it.

The rights of physical integrity and dignity are the most important things. Turning free speech into some self serving argument is just meaningless noise.

 

[schwabdizzle]

I think blocking a bridge becomes a safty concern. Not for just the protesters but others as well.

 

[PdotMichael]

That's a bit of a strawman. There's a big difference between "Here's somewhere where it doesn't happen" and "It can't happen".

That's nonsense. Nations with hate speech laws still have clearly defined free speech articles in their constitutions.

 

[msdstc]

I'd like to point out the Nazis do get the "finger wag" as well. There was a counter protest in Boston when they tried to do a rally here and the counter protestors outnumbered them 100 to 1.

That doesn't mean it's even, but there is most definitely finger wagging and more at Nazis.

 

[Late Flag]

So that "All Lives Splatter" has made its way to my social media. I'm quite frankly a bit confused.

A bunch of Nazis parading around with tiki torches and talking about ethnic cleansing is free speech and even if you disagree with it, and responding with violence is an attack on the first amendment.

Meanwhile BLM protesting by shutting down a freeway, is worthy of death by car. And even so called liberals will talk about how they understand BLM's frustrations, but how blocking a highway simply isn't right.

Why such a large difference in treatment? Is it because a freeway block has the potential to actually inconvenience the majority of Americans, whereas a rise of Nazism wouldn't?

Shutting down a highway is qualitatively different than holding a rally in a public park. Obviously it doesn't justify killing people by running them over, and I hope that would go without saying. But it's pretty obvious why a reasonable, non-racist person would ignore an out-of-the-way rally but get irate over a rally that deliberately snarled traffic.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

What do white supremacists do that is worse than blocking freeway traffic? Maybe whatever that you're talking about is a better comparison to blocking freeway traffic than carrying a tiki torch and/or chanting slogans.

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

I mean, if protestors are blocking my route to work I'm gonna be pissed off. Regardless of what it's for. I need to get to work.

Whats there to be mad about? That's a valid excuse for being late. If your boss holds that against you then you have a crap boss.

 

[Messofanego]

I mean, if protestors are blocking my route to work I'm gonna be pissed off. Regardless of what it's for. I need to get to work.

There is nothing to be pissed off about. You know you can call up your work that you're going to be late for this, right? lol

 

[televator]

What do white supremacists do that is worse than blocking freeway traffic? Maybe whatever that you're talking about is a better comparison to blocking freeway traffic than carrying a tiki torch and/or chanting slogans.

Holly. Fucking. Shit. Watch the protests. Read history. Open your mother fucking eyes.

 

[biggersmaller]

Fuck supremacists, but there is plenty of finger wagging done at them. Also I can understand why people don't like traffic being blocked.

 

[rudger]

Whats there to be mad about? That's a valid excuse for being late. If your boss holds that against you then you have a crap boss.

There is nothing to be pissed off about. You know you can call up your work that you're going to be late for this, right? lol

Some people like getting their work done and don't like sitting in traffic? Also, some people have shitty bosses/jobs. Or shift based ones, meaning you're holding somebody else up from getting home. All sorts of reasons not to want to sit in traffic for a protest you may not even see and will only hear about on the radio. Honestly, I'm all for BLM, but stopping traffic has simply not proven to be an effective form of protest.

 

[The Kree]

Let's all gather around to marvel at the fact a human in 2017 wrote this sentence.

You ever had a teacher who told you as a child that there are no stupid questions?

Like, we must have 8 year olds posting on NeoGAF.

 

[Skellig Gra]

I mean, if protestors are blocking my route to work I'm gonna be pissed off. Regardless of what it's for. I need to get to work.

We got Waze tho.

You ever had a teacher who told you as a child that there are no stupid questions?

Like, we must have 8 year olds posting on NeoGAF.

It’s 13 to sign up IIRC.

Whats there to be mad about? That's a valid excuse for being late. If your boss holds that against you then you have a crap boss.

Those have been known to exist.

 

[nitekrawlwer]

Because the politics of race are, themselves, never attributable “just to the politics of race.”

 

[Dosia]

There is nothing to be pissed off about. You know you can call up your work that you're going to be late for this, right? lol

Get real. Some people have to make up that time, and I'd rather not have to make up an hr + of work because I'm stuck in traffic because of protesters.

I find it baffling that people actually find it acceptable to block off highways. Not only is it idiotic, it is inconsiderate to people that have places to be.

 

[schwabdizzle]

Get real. Some people have to make up that time, and I'd rather not have to make up an hr + of work because I'm stuck in traffic because of protesters.

I find it baffling that people actually find it acceptable to block off highways. Not only is it idiotic, it is inconsiderate to people that have places to be.

Not to mention, let's say an ambulance is stuck in traffic trying to get to the hospital because somebody is in dire need for help and that ambulance gets caught in traffic and that person ends up dying. That negative publicity of that person dying is going to eliminate any positive message that those BLM people are trying to get across by blocking the highway.

 

[*Splinter]

Get real. Some people have to make up that time, and I'd rather not have to make up an hr + of work because I'm stuck in traffic because of protesters.

I find it baffling that people actually find it acceptable to block off highways. Not only is it idiotic, it is inconsiderate to people that have places to be.

Yeah exactly!

Having to make up an hour of work is a far more pressing concern than systematic oppression, racial profiling, and widespread police brutality!

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

Y'all are hung up on hypothetical traffic jams that you'll never be caught up in.

What if DMX drops a new album and I can't make it to the record store before they close? Oh the horror!

 

[Rmagnus]

Not to mention, let's say an ambulance is stuck in traffic trying to get to the hospital because somebody is in dire need for help and that ambulance gets caught in traffic and that person ends up dying. That negative publicity of that person dying is going to eliminate any positive message that those BLM people are trying to get across by blocking the highway.

And IF your fucking aunt has bollocks she might be your uncle

 

[Enzom21]

Not to mention, let's say an ambulance is stuck in traffic trying to get to the hospital because somebody is in dire need for help and that ambulance gets caught in traffic and that person ends up dying. That negative publicity of that person dying is going to eliminate any positive message that those BLM people are trying to get across by blocking the highway.

Quite the hypothetical you have there... and it would make you turn against BLM’s cause. Interesting.

 

[schwabdizzle]

And IF your fucking aunt has bollocks she might be your uncle

What exactly is that supposed to mean? I think I laid out a very good example of what could happen if you shut down the highways. Matter fact any emergency vehicle could be put into that scenario.

 

[What did he mean by this?]

I was gonna sympathize to your Black lives mattering thing but you made me late for work.

 

[Messofanego]

Some people like getting their work done and don't like sitting in traffic? Also, some people have shitty bosses/jobs. Or shift based ones, meaning you're holding somebody else up from getting home. All sorts of reasons not to want to sit in traffic for a protest you may not even see and will only hear about on the radio. Honestly, I'm all for BLM, but stopping traffic has simply not proven to be an effective form of protest.

Traffic happens. Shitty bosses got nothing to do with protests, that's its own problem. How has it been proven to not be effective? If you believe that the tactic of disruptive protests is not effective, then you must equally be against the Montgomery protests.

Which inconvenienced a lot of white people, and caused near bankruptcy to buses with the boycott. White supremacist groups got more recruitment because of angry inconvenienced white people. If you say what did the innocent general public do to deserve such inconvenience, well then what did marginalised groups do to deserve oppression and bigotry? You could be a centrist and say both are bad, but at some point you got to weight up which one is more important to you to rail against.

 

[Big Baybee]

Get real. Some people have to make up that time, and I'd rather not have to make up an hr + of work because I'm stuck in traffic because of protesters.

I find it baffling that people actually find it acceptable to block off highways. Not only is it idiotic, it is inconsiderate to people that have places to be.

Systematic oppression is also pretty inconsiderate.

 

[schwabdizzle]

Systematic oppression is also pretty inconsiderate.

You should take the time and check out Larry Elder on YouTube. He has a lot of insight that might open your mind a little bit.

 

[Rmagnus]

What exactly is that supposed to mean? I think I laid out a very good example of what could happen if you shut down the highways. Matter fact any emergency vehicle could be put into that scenario.

And a comet could land on earth and wipe out all life. Anything could happen but did not happened. So keep making up imaginary things happening when black people are actually getting murdered and people are protesting to raise awareness

 

[Ovid]

Aren't BLM demonstrations more violent/prone to riots though? That's the impression media gave me anyway, following the events from eastern europe.

Will you watch or read about a BLM protest if it were peaceful? Probably not.

The media will only show what attracts eyes to their papers, websites or news channels. That means they will only show the negative things that happen. In America, the local evening news always lead off with violence. They could easily lead off with what they always end their programs with...feel good news.

A recent phenomenon is having reporters walk the streets of protests just so they can showcase any violence takes place. Disgusting lazy reporting.

 

[What did he mean by this?]

You should take the time and check out Larry Elder on YouTube. He has a lot of insight that might open your mind a little bit.

No he doesnt

But this post does give me a lot of insight on your perspective

---

Maybe I'm assuming the worst....

Larry Elder is wrong becauses he uses other issues facing the Black community as a mean to detract from BLMs message despite the fact that these issues can exist and be discussed wholly in parallel. He's a whataboutist at the core essentially making an argument that Black people dont deserve freedom from police brutality until we fix violence in Chicago or fatherless households or etc. problem.

 

[Enzom21]

You should take the time and check out Larry Elder on YouTube. He has a lot of insight that might open your mind a little bit.

Larry fucking Elder?
It is pretty clear why you dislike BLM.

Edit: Fuck it, I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Post some vids of Lawrence that you think we should watch.

 

[Order]

You should take the time and check out Larry Elder on YouTube. He has a lot of insight that might open your mind a little bit.

Holy shit lmao

 

[*Splinter]

Not to mention, let's say an ambulance is stuck in traffic trying to get to the hospital because somebody is in dire need for help and that ambulance gets caught in traffic and that person ends up dying. That negative publicity of that person dying is going to eliminate any positive message that those BLM people are trying to get across by blocking the highway.

How many people have died this year due to roads being closed by protestors?
How many black people have died this year at the hands of the police?

And yet

How many posts has NeoGAF member schwabdizzle made criticising the police?
How many posts has NeoGAF member schwabdizzle made criticising the protestors?

 

[schwabdizzle]

Larry fucking Elder?
It is pretty clear why you dislike BLM.

Edit: Fuck it, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Post some vids of Lawrence that you think we should watch.

I never said I dislike them. I just question their message time to time especially if their protests also turn violent. There are crooked cops out there, but I think that goes beyond a racial thing all in itself.