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[viewtiful_dru]

I'm just going to sum up my feelings on the subject:

- There is no reason to make controls in a fighting game arbitrarily hard. I'm talking about convoluted legacy inputs like chicken wing or hooligan combo or pretzel input. (personally I think complaining about QCF motions is a little silly, it is simply a single sweep of the stick from the down position to forward and a button press)
- Even if you simplify the controls, if the mechanics are deep enough, the game will still have a learning curve. All you do by simplifying the controls is lower the barrier to entry, but the gap between beginner and advanced players will still be wide
- Even if controls are simplified, new techniques will invariably arise that players will need to learn to do well at a higher level than beginner (examples: tiger knee hyper viper beam in MvC2 and wavedashing in Melee)
- Shoehorning simple controls -in the manner in which some in the thread suggested- into established games such as Street Fighter wont work, because the game was designed and built from the ground up as an arcade game using a joystick and 6 buttons for input.
- You can sacrifice the "complex" controls in SF at the expense of move variety, and I don't believe that will make players happy. Having variety encourages different playstyles to emerge.
- More fighters in the future should have a tutorial mode built into training mode that teaches some of the fundamentals of how to play the game. Granted, it can't teach you how to be a pro and beat up Momochi for free, but at least you'll know that c.HP is an anti-air move and when to use it through given example. Really this is much more important than simplifying the control scheme, because no matter how simple it is, if you don't know how to utilize your moves, you wont win.
- Hopefully this tutorial mode can also show you some basic strategy such as zoning with hadoukens and counters to basic strategies.

And yes, while the hypothetical future game may not have 30 hit cheap-o chain combos, you still will have to memorize lots of things, just like anything else in life. And once you memorize them, they become 2nd nature. Nobody should expect to start playing a fighting game without learning anything and beat people. With fighters, you get out what you put in.

 

[boiled goose]

I'm just going to sum up my feelings on the subject:

- There is no reason to make controls in a fighting game arbitrarily hard. I'm talking about convoluted legacy inputs like chicken wing or hooligan combo or pretzel input. (personally I think complaining about QCF motions is a little silly, it is simply a single sweep of the stick from the down position to forward and a button press)
- Even if you simplify the controls, if the mechanics are deep enough, the game will still have a learning curve. All you do by simplifying the controls is lower the barrier to entry, but the gap between beginner and advanced players will still be wide
- Even if controls are simplified, new techniques will invariably arise that players will need to learn to do well at a higher level than beginner (examples: tiger knee hyper viper beam in MvC2 and wavedashing in Melee)
- Shoehorning simple controls -in the manner in which some in the thread suggested- into established games such as Street Fighter wont work, because the game was designed and built from the ground up as an arcade game using a joystick and 6 buttons for input.
- You can sacrifice the "complex" controls in SF at the expense of move variety, and I don't believe that will make players happy. Having variety encourages different playstyles to emerge.
- More fighters in the future should have a tutorial mode built into training mode that teaches some of the fundamentals of how to play the game. Granted, it can't teach you how to be a pro and beat up Momochi for free, but at least you'll know that c.HP is an anti-air move and when to use it through given example. Really this is much more important than simplifying the control scheme, because no matter how simple it is, if you don't know how to utilize your moves, you wont win.
- Hopefully this tutorial mode can also show you some basic strategy such as zoning with hadoukens and counters to basic strategies.

And yes, while the hypothetical future game may not have 30 hit cheap-o chain combos, you still will have to memorize lots of things, just like anything else in life. And once you memorize them, they become 2nd nature. Nobody should expect to start playing a fighting game without learning anything and beat people. With fighters, you get out what you put in.

sounds like smash

 

[ninjaurbano]

Not sure if it was already mentioned, but I really like Tatsunoko vs Capcom simplified commands when you play using the Wiimote + Nunchuck.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

As an exersise I'm going to see if it's possible to indeed fit all the moves that Hitokage mentioned for SF4 in a "direction + attack" Smash Brothers style scheme.


Ignoring the ten movement actions, that's fifty attacking moves. Six of them are "Standing", done without any movement so that's 44 moves.

In most fighting games, the two characters are always facing eachother, so unlike Smash Brothers we can have "Forword" and "Back" be counted as seperate inputs.

SF4 uses six buttons, that's two more then Smash uses (A-attack, B-attack, Jump, Guard)

Six moves are "crouching" So down+attack button. Make six more "Down + attack at the same time" and you have 12. That leaves 32 moves left. Six of them forword + attack, and six "forward + attack at the same time". That leaves 20 moves left. Up is jump, you then have six neutral air attacks. 14 moves left. Then six "forward + attack" air moves. 8 moves left! "Up + Attack at at the same time" is six more moves, 2 moves left! Finally, "Back + Attack" and "Back + Attack at the same time" is 12 more moves.

..wait, that's -10!

Amazing! You can actually have more movements with this control scheme then Ryu currently has in SF4!

And that's not even getting into pressing two buttons at the same time! And on a arcade stick, it's easy to hit even three at once!

Yeah, let's fuck with option selects and guarding.

 

[ChoklitReign]

It's not memorization that's the problem with fighting games - it's learning how to dodge, block, and evade everything your enemy throws at you while fighting back. I have play SSB for years and could never get any better, either against AI or my brother, who's a god. I guess I failed to do this. I've avoided every other fighting game ever since.

 

[Twig]

Do fighting games have moves that kind of branch? The button combos, I mean? So midway you might switch to one of two different moves? QCF F P vs. QCF B K sort of thing? I have no idea if that's even a valid move or... anything, but hopefully you get the idea.

Just curious.

 

[Hilbert]

Do fighting games have moves that kind of branch? The button combos, I mean? So midway you might switch to one of two different moves? QCF F P vs. QCF B K sort of thing? I have no idea if that's even a valid move or... anything, but hopefully you get the idea.

Just curious.

Like branching flowcharts or moves with similar inputs?

I was thinking about Aoi in virtua fighter where as an example you can do f, f Kick (launching kick), or you could do f. f. Kick +punch(elbow).

 

[zlatko]

Any competitive game worth playing's going to have a learning curve, and it will take a fairly hefty time commitment if you want to be good at that game.

If spending 10 minutes with an instruction manual and 30 with a move list is beyond someone, they're not going to be playing any game competitively not just fighters.

Quoted this for pure truth. It's why games comes with Very Easy, Easy, Normal, etc game modes. Not everyone is meant to be a pro and that's for various reasons. Things like how much time you can spend playing on a day to day basis, your ability to experiment, to do repetitive actions, and to keep trying to find someone equal or better to always have a next level of game mastery to accomplish.

Blazblue had a great way to let more casual fighting game players have a better chance in private matches with the use of the right stick on controllers. Hitting Up on the right stick did a character combo move, right on stick did one, and left did your distortions if I remember right. This IS a good thing to have in fighting games FOR the more casual player and yes it SHOULD only remain in private and non ranked matches.

I always love when I'm about to beat friends in fighting games(who for the most part are fairly casual) they will start to smash buttons in a hopes to retaliate, but if they had just remained cool they could have tapped into their memory for a smarter way to use their character properly at that critical point.

Bottom line is: Learn or GTFO. :lol

 

[Twig]

Like branching flowcharts or moves with similar inputs?

I was thinking about Aoi in virtua fighter where as an example you can do f, f Kick (launching kick), or you could do f. f. Kick +punch(elbow).

Yeah that kind of thing!

 

[bistromathics]

Yeah that kind of thing!

there are a billion of these in SF4 (or some smaller, more countable number)

 

[Twig]

there are a billion of these in SF4 (or some smaller, more countable number)

Let's go with a billion. It's more fun that way.

Anyway, just curious, everyone go back to insulting each other now.

 

[Pandaman]

Yeah that kind of thing!

sakura.

 

[GalacticAE]

there are a billion of these in SF4 (or some smaller, more countable number)

I can't seem to think ofany branching specials in SF4. I'm thinking more along the lines of Dudley's ducking special in 3s.

A lot of the time, these setup high/low/throw mixups depending on which "path" the player takes during the active special move.

 

[GalacticAE]

sakura.

These are just resets. But they do offer the same kind of mixup game, I don't think that's what he was asking about.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"I can't seem to think ofany branching specials in SF4."

Abel's COD, Akuma/Gouken's Demon Flip?

 

[Pandaman]

These are just resets. But they do offer the same kind of mixup game, I don't think that's what he was asking about.

reset or otoshi or ultra or untechable [close or far].

or shoryuken > otoshi if you feel like showing off. >_>

I will plug sakura whenever i can and you cant stop me!

 

[GalacticAE]

"I can't seem to think ofany branching specials in SF4."

Abel's COD, Akuma/Gouken's Demon Flip?

OH yea. My mistake.

 

[Twig]

sakura.

I'm probably wrong but that looks more like linking different moves together in different orders or some such.

I was thinking more along the lines of two specials that have the same beginning button/direction presses but end differently.

 

[P90]

If you don't memorize, than this is what you get:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPrGhMdsi5c&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijYXXTkG3HQ&feature=related

 

[Freshmaker]

I'm probably wrong but that looks more like linking different moves together in different orders or some such.

Combos resets are a bit meaner than that.

 

[Twig]

What is a combo reset? Starting a combo, then canceling it, then doing something else? Or doing it again?

 

[Freshmaker]

What is a combo reset? Starting a combo, then canceling it, then doing something else? Or doing it again?

From the comments section from Eventhubs terminology guide:

Richard Nguyen B A reset is when you attack a person who was in the air so they will not be in the juggle state anymore. An example is in SF3:3s, Akuma's lk tatsu will juggle the opponent and if you do a cl. lp (close jab), it will hit and cause the opponent to flip over in mid air and will land in a standing position when he/she hits the floor instead of falling on the floor and have to get up. Resets are used so you can land some a meaty in or some other tactics. Also in some situations, it is possible to land a Super Art. For example, in the Akuma's lk tastu -> cl. lp combo, you can now do his SA1 (super art 1, the messatsu gouhadouken) while the opponent is still in the air, who is unable to block but can parry.​

 

[BlackTyrano]

What is a combo reset? Starting a combo, then canceling it, then doing something else? Or doing it again?

A reset is basically causing the opponent to enter a "neutral" state(one where they can block or attack, but also be attacked) at a time where they might be expecting to be invulnerable from attacks(like while falling after being hit in the air) or at a time where they might think they're being combo'd and can't control anything. It basically forces them to act at times they don't expect they'd have to, while also usually giving yourself timing/positioning advantages even if they do see it coming.

 

[Twig]

That is some crazy voodoo magic.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Err... number of buttons =/= depth.

In fact, I there has been many games that use the "4" button layout than the typical 6.

 

[Hitokage]

Err... number of buttons =/= depth.

In fact, I there has been many games that use the "4" button layout than the typical 6.

SF with six doesn't place as high of importance on button combinations as VF does with three. VF treats P, K, G, P+K, K+G, P+G, P+K+G as if they were all separate buttons.