The goal is to bring forward potential contradictions in the persons belief system. Generally this is a good thing because you can always learn more. Bringing up problems in someones belief system isn't being intolerant, it's being observant.
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Why do people think that God has done for so many when...
- Thread starter Biker19
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The goal is to bring forward potential contradictions in the persons belief system. Generally this is a good thing because you can always learn more. Bringing up problems in someones belief system isn't being intolerant, it's being observant.
block tower
Member
ok, but you do realize the problem of evil is philosophical question that takes a deep understanding of logic to even approach with a coherent argument? im not insulting you, but a neogaf post isn't about to solve that philosophical question, you likely need an well researched paper to do that. like i said this is an old question that many religious philosophers have been unable to successfully answer. im not actually expecting someone on Gaf to solve the problem of evil.
Wheeljack539
Member
That there is an unfortunate and immature human need to better than someone else which is the biggest cause of suffering in this world.
I remember reading this awhile ago, but I can't recall where, but it had to do with the early days of Christianity and that in those days it was more universalist with a message that ALL would enter heaven and that hell itself was not eternal (that hell was itself a step of purification). The change in this thinking was due to St Augustine who not only began the message that hell was eternal but ONLY Christians would make it to heaven.
Ah, I see what you guys are asking now. Thanks.
God doesn't want us to die from these things. He rather them not exist, but unfortunately they do. You know the devil and all that.
Diseases were born because of sin. That's just why they exist. There's nothing else to it. It's just the answer to "why did God create such a thing like cancer?" Answer is that he didn't, diseases like that were born after mankind sinned. Everything else is the way we know diseases to be.
Nostremitus
Member
Ok, so why is my understanding of it incoherent? Being on Neogaf is irrelevant.
If there is a singular deity, then that deity and it's ideals = good
Anything that falls outside of those ideals = evil
In order for there to be true free will, and not the illusion of it, then all options must be made available to the creations, even those completely opposed to the creator. Otherwise free will doesn't truly exist because the creator would be stopping the creations from thinking or behaving in ways that oppose it.
StickSoldier
Member
But why would God create angels who were supposed to rebel against him? It really makes no sense that God would create his loving angel to just defy him and wreck havoc on all his creations. If he is omnipotent, he can create all things to be like he wants without going through wars in heaven. That's why I believe that maybe God isn't omnipotent like the bible says.. I'm a human and if I was omnipotent, I'd create harmony from the get go, but this is God were talking about, something we can't begin to understand.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Right, so since we are figuring out ways to combat disease (like the ones i mentioned, that used to kill thousands of people), sin's off-spring (disease) isn't really winning like it used to.
TimeEffect
Member
I don't understand how this gels with the idea of free will, if God intervenes and cherry picks blessings. It always comes off as so close-minded when somebody praises god for something personal, especially because it just feels so unfair in the grand scheme of things to have favour over others.
I also don't really understand how people ignore that people attribute blessings to different gods. Do Christians just not think Muslims are blessed when Muslims praise God for a blessing and vice versa?
I also don't really understand how people ignore that people attribute blessings to different gods. Do Christians just not think Muslims are blessed when Muslims praise God for a blessing and vice versa?
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
No, the explanation of what he is responsible for changes, or what his true intentions were will evolve as time goes on, just as it always has.
The last few years of faith will be interesting. We will be living on Mars and the moon and we won't know how a specific particle exists, and even though we live in space there will still be religious people holding on, and this mysterious particle will be evidence of God and that was his intent all along- humans had the wisdom to finally gain full understanding only to fail at this one particle, and all humanity would give God his due for having the forethought to allow humanity the wisdom and free will to make it to that final understanding of his existence. Good one, God.
A good friend of mine was an alcoholic. He went to AA and really came through with it, didn't touch a drop after that. I smacked him and told him "No. God didn't do this for you. You did this for you. Don't you dare give anyone else credit for your victory." He really thanked me for that and went on feeling great about himself.
On the topic of free will, Christianity's teachings really is more of a conditional style of free will. It's really a concept I don't understand. The deeper you go into it, the more you realize just how much "free will" you really have.
We still have a long ways to go though! Sin is also the reason people even die >_>
Do animals sin?
No, luck is from the devil.
Irrelevant. The existence of sin in this world is all that matters.
You're generally talking about the God of the gaps. I don't think it will be a problem for future faiths.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
I think because belief in a personal god is inherently self-serving. You want to believe it has altered things in the universe exclusively for your pleasure or specifically to reduce your suffering and that it did so because of some, significant effort or work that you put in being a good person and praying and what-not, when really it's just a way to practice self-aggrandizement without feeling bad.
TimeEffect
Member
Spiritual death, physical death, or both?
Noble Neckbeard
Banned
There will always be people who are content with a sanitized, simplified vision of reality. Black and white style thinking is the bread and butter of their thought process. You see this in all aspects of religion and dogma.
It's always more difficult to be a critical thinker. That's why this simple mindset is so appealing. Our brains are structured around trying to make sense of the world, and when you start asking tough questions, you find that often there just aren't any answers, or the answers are harsh.
We need to compartmentalize reality in order to make sense of it, as human beings. Unfortunately for the simple-minded, reality doesn't particularly care what we think.
It's always more difficult to be a critical thinker. That's why this simple mindset is so appealing. Our brains are structured around trying to make sense of the world, and when you start asking tough questions, you find that often there just aren't any answers, or the answers are harsh.
We need to compartmentalize reality in order to make sense of it, as human beings. Unfortunately for the simple-minded, reality doesn't particularly care what we think.
No it's not irrelevant. It's a fair question.
If sin brought disease, why do diseases affect animals, who can't sin?
Hold on, so something as big and widespread as disease popped out of nowhere, out of god's control? I mean, it must have come from something, right?
Hexa
Member
I'm so confused by so much in this thread but I'm too lazy to and read and respond to posts specifically. As a Muslim some random comments on my point of view in response to a number of posts in this thread.
1. It is based on faith. There is no proof other than it feels right. However, there should not be any logical contradictions. Though I'm not a scholar so I may not be able to explain things well enough.
2. Everything is the will of god. I scored a home run. Will of god. Children are dying in Africa. Will of god. They are infinitely powerful so time and effort aren't factors. Just will.
3. Bad things happening to people that do not deserve them is also the will of god. The ultimate goal of the world is to test people. Some people are tested with strife. Some people are tested with happiness. All insignificant compared to the result of the test, heaven or hell afterwards.
4. Everything is the will of god at this in that he is actively affecting things, but in that it was set up that way, and it was all written down. When we thank god we are not thanking him for performing a miracle (there are some exceptions to this relating to technicalities like miracles but that's complicated so I'll skip it) but for setting up the world to be that way. "Thanks for the home run" essentially means "Thank you for creating a world where all the variables came together and allowed me to score a home run".
5. The obvious conclusion of the previous topic would be be the existence of the human soul beyond the chemical composition of our bodies. Otherwise god would be responsible for all of our actions, and free will does exist. God knows what we are going to do, and has set up the world as such, but we are the ones that will actually do it.
1. It is based on faith. There is no proof other than it feels right. However, there should not be any logical contradictions. Though I'm not a scholar so I may not be able to explain things well enough.
2. Everything is the will of god. I scored a home run. Will of god. Children are dying in Africa. Will of god. They are infinitely powerful so time and effort aren't factors. Just will.
3. Bad things happening to people that do not deserve them is also the will of god. The ultimate goal of the world is to test people. Some people are tested with strife. Some people are tested with happiness. All insignificant compared to the result of the test, heaven or hell afterwards.
4. Everything is the will of god at this in that he is actively affecting things, but in that it was set up that way, and it was all written down. When we thank god we are not thanking him for performing a miracle (there are some exceptions to this relating to technicalities like miracles but that's complicated so I'll skip it) but for setting up the world to be that way. "Thanks for the home run" essentially means "Thank you for creating a world where all the variables came together and allowed me to score a home run".
5. The obvious conclusion of the previous topic would be be the existence of the human soul beyond the chemical composition of our bodies. Otherwise god would be responsible for all of our actions, and free will does exist. God knows what we are going to do, and has set up the world as such, but we are the ones that will actually do it.
Ash Sparrow
Banned
Perfect thanks for that!
DOWN
Banned
Luck is just about favorable probability. If I say I got lucky, I just mean the odds were up in the air and I ended up with the favorable outcome I am glad for.
I should put a disclaimer that I don't really study Christianity. My answers pretty much come from a friend sending me a long message and the end being why I'm going to hell. He's really knowledgable of the bible. Knows it almost inside and out lol.
I figured I'd share the answers to some of this stuff, if I can answer them properly anyway. Personally I find these topics to be just a discussion of the Devil's Proof.
We know when sin appeared, it's in the bible.
I figured I'd share the answers to some of this stuff, if I can answer them properly anyway. Personally I find these topics to be just a discussion of the Devil's Proof.
I'm thinking physical. Spiritual seems like God's second death thing.
No, I really think it's irrelevant. If I can remember correctly, sin being unnatural and evil (and of course the weapon of the devil) targets everyone. Innocent babies can have cancer.
We know when sin appeared, it's in the bible.
Wheeljack539
Member
This is the one thing I don't think anyone ever considers as this is as much of a testing ground as being under strife is.
How do we handle ourselves when things are going good? Hell, lets bring up what someone mentioned earlier about being rich as that's pretty much where "Fuck you, I got mine" comes from. Are you more open to people? Or are you someone who encloses themselves as everything is not your problem (even if its not a 'problem').
I've been very fortunate in my life, but this is one where when I released this about myself I was caught flatfooted during a time that I had been experiencing an existential crisis and anxiety last year. I had not realized that I had enclosed myself to the point of ignoring all else up to that point that I had been hurting family that only wanted me to be with them. That I had kept putting my petty needs above them (in other words, selfishness) and kept pushing them away. My youngest sister had wanted me to watch her and her performances that she had in high school, and had worked extremely hard to push their team to where they were at that time. I never went to watch and ridiculed it when I had the chance.
When I went through my crisis I did a lot of thinking and realized how much I had lost due to that and learned how much I had hurt her simply by doing nothing. The time that had been wasted that I can never get back is one that weighs on my now but I was able to repair what would have been a rift between us. I am thankful for recognizing this.
The above is but one example but it shows how one can do bad things during 'the good times'.
Deified Data
Banned
On the right, it's God. On the left, it's social injustice.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
These threads never go beyond atheists calling all religious people idiots and religious people trying to defend themselves and their beliefs to no avail
You can't really have a discussion if you go into it with no respect for the other person from the start
You can't really have a discussion if you go into it with no respect for the other person from the start
Free will isn't a clear idea. Trace your free will back a few stages and become a determinist. It's impossible to predict the future with certainty, so/and we're still accountable.
Fenderputty
Banned
Nostremitus
Member
Nah, I meant it as in good luck vs bad luck, rabbits feet, broken mirrors, walking under ladders, lucky socks, a black cat crossing your path, wishing good luck upon people, etc, as a belief that wearing a certain thing, or thinking a certain way can turn the luck in or out of your favor.
Fenderputty
Banned
Wow. I'm not literally telling anyone to fuck off. It's a phrase I used to express my mental frustration when it happens.
I don't think it causes harm either. I think it's extremely egotistical to assume Gods helping you and your trivial issue while others suffer.
My comment was directed at a relatable OP too.
You usually get your feathers ruffled that easy.?
Head of Vengarl
Banned
The OP reminded me of a video clip of Sam Harris debating William Lane Craig. I'm not Sam's biggest fan but sometimes he perfectly puts my thoughts into words:
http://youtu.be/AcO4TnrskE0?t=4m17s
Please excuse the stupid video title.
http://youtu.be/AcO4TnrskE0?t=4m17s
Please excuse the stupid video title.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
It's a tough situation. Defending belief is an unenviable position. Human progress is due to gaining understanding through testing and experience. Belief is on the losing end of this process.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Yeah so fuck suffering in this life. People suffering now is meaningless in God's plan then.
This supposed god allows rape starvation misery and suffering now because it will be ok for longer later? How is this necessary? How is this moral? Doesn't he make the rules?
Fuck that god.
StickSoldier
Member
Well as you learn, your understanding of things change so it only makes sense. Ultimately, the universe is what it is and nothing will change that, but as we gain knowledge in how it all works, we should remember that if God does exist, he has things the way he does for us to learn. He could've made the world in a simple way, but he didn't, it's fucking complex as shit, which just leads me to believe he wants us to be smart so that perhaps we can be self reliant, not to be stupid beings who sacrifice others to him in hopes of a good crop year.
Aquamarine
Member
I gave up trying to convince people a long, long time ago.
Belief can only be undone by an internal process of self-realisation.
Why is the Bible correct? -> Because it is the Word of God -> How do you know God made it -> Because...
1) The Old Testament predicts events that come true in the New Testament
2) How could a bunch of random people create such a perfect book unless it's divinely inspired
3) Historical facts / evidence point to its truth
4) It's just my faith, and there's no harm having something to believe in
5) Because it says in the Bible it's true
6) Why not believe in it? If it's right then I'll go to heaven. That's better than not believing at all
7) It wouldn't have become so popular / so well-preserved if it isn't true
8) Because it's full of wisdom
9) Because it makes my life better to believe in it
10) There's no evidence it's not true
This chain of circular logic has to be undone through self-initiative.
No matter how many facts or how much logic you throw at someone, there are always methods to rebut it that are consistent with their faith. You could do the same process for the Qur'an and other holy books.
Hexa
Member
Its not meaningless. It's insignificant in the long term. "Rape, starvation, and misery" don't really matter in the long run. Its necessary as a test. As they are the ones that created the universe, humanity, the emotions and feeling humanity is capable of feeling, as well as the concept of morality itself they are ultimately the ones that define what morality is, and beyond that as humanity lacks a point of comparison as their is only one god, they do not really have knowledge for judgement on the morality either.
Imo of course.
Right, it's not like god supposedly made humanity in his image or something. Oh, wait.
"It's okay Miss, you were raped and your child starved to death so people in the future can have a better relationship with God."
Majmun
Member
Religion will only lead into conflict and delusion. This has always been the case. Humans are too dumb to practice religion the right way.
I usually avoid discussing stuff with religious people anyway.
I usually avoid discussing stuff with religious people anyway.
I can spin this. Replace raped and starving child with tortured and humiliated and you have Jesus, who's goal was to bring humanity closer to God. That was God's very own son too.
That's hardly a spin for the positive.
Hexa
Member
Pretty much with the next step being that the better relationship leads to heaven. I don't see what wrong with that.
Of course we are still supposed to seek happiness as it is in human nature to do so, as god created us that way, and thus we do our best to make sure events of that nature do not happen. So such actions are never justified for humanity and should be punished/prevented, and if not they will be punished in the afterlife far worse than they would be in this life. But the existence of such events is not a contradiction with religion.
Have you been living under a rock or something? It starts to matter when those comforted people try to spread their comfortness to people who don't want it. And that has been happening for a looooong time and in various amount of ways like brainwashing and violence to name a couple.
We're not talking about babies. Animals. They can't sin, this is a human thing.
If disease is because of sin according to you, then how come animals are afflicted by diseases? It's not irrelevant, it's just pointing out the flaw in your argument.
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